Thoughts on the following wrestler (s?)

[Loss]

Pre-Blonds "Stunning" Steve Austin

Hollywood Blonds

Post-Blonds "Stunning" Steve Austin

Steve Austin in ECW

The Ringmaster

"Stone Cold" Steve Austin

"Stone Cold" Steve Austin post-retirement

 

Austin is a good guy to try this with, since his career has taken so many drastic turns. This is motivated by watching him on the Dangerous Alliance set.

[Loss]

Pre-Blonds "Stunning" Steve Austin - I've read lots of things the past few years from people whose opinions I value that Austin wasn't really that good early on, that he was extremely green ... various things. I do agree that he hadn't evolved into a great worker yet, but he was already really good. I enjoyed his first run as TV champ quite a bit. That title I think was a really good place to put someone who had potential but needed more ring time to let them work 10-15 minute draws on a regular basis against a pretty wide group of opponents. Without working with Steamboat, Rude, Arn Anderson, Bobby Eaton, Sting, Barry Windham, etc every night during this time period, I don't think he would have ever become the superstar he finally became, because it's obvious these are the guys who taught him what he knows about how to connect with a crowd, how to draw money, how to sell and get stuff over and how to protect yourself as well. Obviously, his whole presentation left a lot to be desired. He was a workhorse in the ring, but hadn't really put anything else together yet. If you're going to rip off Ric Flair with the long blond hair, robe and long run with a belt, you have to be willing to spend a lot of money on the right look. I think he gained something for sure when he cut his hair, but he was still balding and finally losing all the hair was definitely the right move for him. It can't be said enough how much of a cheap Ric Flair knockoff he came across as at this point, even though he was more than capable in the ring and wrestled a more explosive style with more big power moves and some absolutely insane bumps he wouldn't be taking after he hit his peak for obvious reasons. I would really be interested in hearing someone shed some light on how Dave Meltzer was writing up Austin at the time. Was he paying much attention to him?

 

Hollywood Blonds - A bit of an overrated tag team bell-to-bell, but they did have some good matches with Steamboat and Douglas. Lots of revisionist history here, with this crazy idea that the main event guys were threatened by them and Dusty lobbied to break them up and bury them, which is pretty far from what happened according to Meltzer. They loved Austin and Pillman and put them against Flair and Arn for Flair's big return to WCW at the June '93 Clash. The show drew a really disappointing rating, and Austin and Pillman took the blame for it. Dusty felt Austin needed to be separated from Pillman and that he was being misused being stuck in a tag team that couldn't draw, as proved by the low Clash rating. So they split them up. Austin was upset because he and Pillman worked hard and put a lot of time into getting it over, but WCW didn't think they were as over as they should have been, and there was also a perception that Austin was carrying the team (which was actually true by this point).

 

Post-Blonds "Stunning" Steve Austin - This was the point when Austin showed signs of being ready to go to the next level, but didn't get there for many reasons, some his fault and some not. I think he could be considered pretty great in the ring by this point, and I was a big fan of his the first half of '94. Hogan coming in really hurt him, but he didn't do himself any favors allegedly milking injuries and walking out on TV tapings where he was scheduled to job either. For the record, the whole story about Flair planning to put the belt on him is something Scott Keith made completely up or read on RSPW or something. It's not that there were plans to bury Austin, but there weren't plans to put him on top either, at least none that Meltzer has ever been aware of. Obviously, I'm sure Bischoff wishes he'd worked harder to keep Austin in hindsight, but looking at things without knowing what would happen in the future, it's easy to see where Eric was coming from on that one.

 

Steve Austin in ECW - This was the first time I saw Austin do a great interview. I think that's what stands out here.

 

The Ringmaster - Obviously not the best use of Austin, but he'd turn things around.

 

"Stone Cold" Steve Austin - I was a big fan in 1996-1997, and for some reason couldn't get into him as much when it became all about Austin vs Undertaker all the time. When Bret left, some of my interest in Steve Austin also left for a while. But I was in the minority and this was easily the best time period of his career, and is arguably the best run any wrestler has ever had anywhere.

 

"Stone Cold" Steve Austin post-retirement - Not a huge fan. I understand why they used him after he retired, because he still could have had something to offer, but seeing him stun people week after week for no reason, especially when he stunned Stacy Keibler after we knew about his alcoholism and spousal abuse, made things hard to watch at times. Wrestlemania XIX really should have been the last time we ever saw him. It was a completely fitting end to a stellar career.

[tomk]

I'm unclear as to what you mean by post-retirement.

 

You mention the 96-97 run. 97 is OWen Hart piledriver goes wrong.

 

Are you defining everything after that as a "post-retirement"? It seems like worth discussing Austin pre-and post that period but lumping everything after 97 as post retirement seems odd.

 

Post-1999 surgery? Again multiple runs here.

 

2000 Steve Austin was feuding with Angle and Benoit (and despite his own surgery) really responsible for turning rolling Germans into a count along Hase giant swing spot. I guess Angle should be blamed for not understanding that it's a spot you work opposite Austin (lower ranked wrestler challengeing A1 guy-and not v everyone) but still.

 

Rightly or wrongly, 2001 Heel Steve Austin is I think the highest we ended up ranking him on the DVDVR 500. He really seemed reenergized especially after HHH goes down having a fun main event heel run here, smartly laid out matches. He decides to do "eat a suplex on the ramp" as a signature Flair goes to top rope only to be powerslammed type heel spot.

 

Him walking out in 2002 over the shittyness of NWO=retirement?

The second time he walks out in 2002 over shittyness of NWO and being put in an unhyped Lesnar match=retirement?

[Marty]

I'll get into these later, but I agree with Tom in that Stone Cold-era Austin can be split into two or more eras. My opinion is that it can be done in two -- pre-neck surgery/Attitude Era/Russo Era Austin and post-neck surgery/post-Attitude Era Austin. Plus, aside from Taker, and to a lesser extent, Rocky and HHH, Austin's opponents differed greatly between the two eras.

 

Great idea, though, Loss, especially with that three-disc Austin DVD the WWE had planned on releasing this month until postponing it just recently. (I'm guessing some material/match(es) were taken out for PR reasons.)

[Loss]

I'm unclear as to what you mean by post-retirement.

 

You mention the 96-97 run. 97 is OWen Hart piledriver goes wrong.

 

Are you defining everything after that as a "post-retirement"? It seems like worth discussing Austin pre-and post that period but lumping everything after 97 as post retirement seems odd.

 

Post-1999 surgery? Again multiple runs here.

 

2000 Steve Austin was feuding with Angle and Benoit (and despite his own surgery) really responsible for turning rolling Germans into a count along Hase giant swing spot. I guess Angle should be blamed for not understanding that it's a spot you work opposite Austin (lower ranked wrestler challengeing A1 guy-and not v everyone) but still.

 

Rightly or wrongly, 2001 Heel Steve Austin is I think the highest we ended up ranking him on the DVDVR 500. He really seemed reenergized especially after HHH goes down having a fun main event heel run here, smartly laid out matches. He decides to do "eat a suplex on the ramp" as a signature Flair goes to top rope only to be powerslammed type heel spot.

 

Him walking out in 2002 over the shittyness of NWO=retirement?

The second time he walks out in 2002 over shittyness of NWO and being put in an unhyped Lesnar match=retirement?

Retirement is when his wrestling career ended. 2003. "Stone Cold" Steve Austin is 1996-2003. He retired after losing to The Rock at Wrestlemania XIX.

 

I didn't think there was any confusion over that.

 

Post-retirement is his non-wrestling TV character feuding with Eric Bischoff and Brock Lesnar basically.

[Tim Evans]

Pre-Blonds "Stunning" Steve Austin Not a big fan. I actually thought he was the weak link in the Dangerous Alliance besides Larry.

 

Hollywood Blonds I bought a comp of most of there matches. Good at the time but age hasn't been kind. Probably would have been better if it lasted longer though.

 

Post-Blonds "Stunning" Steve Austin The only thing I remember is him jobbing to Jim Duggan.

 

Steve Austin in ECW Loved it. Wish it would have lasted longer really. You could tell he could be big if booked right. We sure would see that later.

 

The Ringmaster I liked the feud with Savio. The finisher was crappy though.

 

tone Cold" Steve Austin I started watching wrestling in about 95 thanks to Diesel vs Bret Hart. I was a fan of both HBK and DX. When Stone cold came around starting about Royal Rumble 97 I was hooked. I was about 11-12 at the time so I loved every minute of it. He got old about 1999 when I became a fan of Rock. His career took off again when he was a heel with Mcmahon. I'm probably the only one here that LOVED the Alliance vs WWF angle. Sure it could have been better but I thought it was really underrated.

 

"Stone Cold" Steve Austin post-retirement It's alright but a little sad. The Sherrif thing was an embarassment.

[kjh]

Retirement is when his wrestling career ended. 2003. "Stone Cold" Steve Austin is 1996-2003. He retired after losing to The Rock at Wrestlemania XIX.

 

I didn't think there was any confusion over that.

I wasn't confused by that, but I think tomk's point that Austin's whole "Stone Cold" run shouldn't be lumped into one category is a valid one, because his character and wrestling style changed numerous times in that near 7 year run. Indeed, that category is longer than the previous five categories combined! Personally I'd split it up into these more manageable chunks that are all worth talking about seperately:

 

1. The rise of "Stone Cold" spanning KOTR '96 to SummerSlam '97;

2. The period where he was recovering from the Owen driver while being groomed for the top spot from SummerSlam '97 to WrestleMania 14;

3. The pinnacle of "Stone Cold" spanning WrestleMania 14 to Survivor Series '99;

4. The babyface return of "Stone Cold" spanning Unforgiven 2000 to WrestleMania 17;

5. The heel run spanning WrestleMania 17 to Survivor Series 2001;

and 6. The final babyface runs spanning Survivor Series 2001 to WrestleMania 19.

 

I'll try and write a bit about each when I have the time.

[tomk]

Obsessed with Wrestling has your pretty detailed recpas of the later part of Austins career which makes it easier to put together a historical timeline and divide up the WWE part of career.

 

http://www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/profi...teve-austin.php

[jdw]

I agree with the splitting of "Stone Cold" into different pieces, similar to how his WCW career is all split up.

 

I think Tom and kjh have it pretty close to covered. I would make one additional Split:

 

1. The rise of "Stone Cold" spanning KOTR '96 to SummerSlam '97;

I would actually split that into Rising Heel Stone Cold (KOTR '96 to Mania '97) and Pre Injury Rising Face Stone Cold (Post-Mania '97 to Summer Slam '97).

 

They look like short stretches, but they would be interesting contrasts to see how he worked as a Heel and Face as he was developing the Stone Cold persona. Here are the PPV matches in each:

 

07/97 Steve Austin p Marc Mero (10:48) (IYH)

10/97 Steve Austin p Triple H (15:30) (IYH)

11/97 Steve Austin p Owen Hart (4:04)

01/97 Rumble

02/97 Final Four Match (24:05) (IYH)

03/97 Bret Hart b Steve Austin (22:05) (Mania)

 

04/97: Steve Austin DQ Bret Hart (21:09) (IYH / Taker's Revenge)

05/97: Undertaker p Steve Austin (20:06) (IYH / Cold Day In Hell)

06/97: Shawn Michaels DDQ Steve Austin (22:29) (KOR)

07/97: Harts vs. US Five Man Tag (24:31) (IYH/Canadian Stampede)

08/97: Steve Austin p Owen Hart (16:16) (SSlam)

 

One would have to figure out the TV and the Commerical Tape stuff that's out there. There's probably a longer match with Owen in the Heel section than the one at Survivors. There's a lot of stuff on TV:

 

06/24/96 Taker vs. Austin (RAW)

07/29/96 Taker vs. Austin (RAW)

 

Both are the main events and go across two ad breaks. Not short matches.

 

10/14/96 Shawn vs. Austin (RAW)

 

Another main event

 

12/16/96 Vader vs. Austin (RAW)

 

Shortish

 

01/20/97 Taker vs. Austin (RAW)

 

Another main event

 

There's additional stuff after the face turn, such as main events against Mannkind and Davey Boy, the Tag Titles win with Shawn over Davey & Owen, LOD vs Shawn & Austin, Dude Love & Austin vs. Davey & Owen, and Bret & Owen & Davey vs. Austin & Dude & Take. Again, I think there's probably a fair amount of non-TV stuff that was taped for CHV release.

 

They're not long runs, but they are a bit different as he was developing the persona... and he was in with some Top Stars.

 

 

John

[Loss]

Okay, okay.

 

Can this thread please start being about Steve Austin instead of my categories?

 

 

Break it up however you want, but talk about Steve Austin.

[anarchistxx]

Austin 2001 is the best in ring year of anyone, anywhere, ever, for my money, and an awesome character as well.

 

I probably overrate it a ton, but I love the Angle, Benoit and Rock matches, he has a couple of stellar tags, the Trips match and some really cool stuff that kept the Alliance/WWF storyline at least somewhat respectably. I loved the faction feud with RVD, the beatdowns on the Hardyz, and, I probably shouldn't say it given my reputation, the whipping of Taz.

 

The stuff with Taker was awful though.

 

I liked him in 96, 97 and 98 a bunch, 99 not so much, the 2003 run against Hollywood Rock was OK, the stuff after his retirement varied considerably. It was mostly shit on the shows that I saw, though there were a few times where you could see he was head and shoulders above any other guy out there in his interviews, his timing was always amazing.

 

I haven't seen as much of his WCW stuff as I should have, I thought his ECW run was overrated, probably because it was fairly controversial, though he was entertaining most of the time.

[Bix]

I loved the faction feud with RVD, the beatdowns on the Hardyz, and, I probably shouldn't say it given my reputation, the whipping of Taz.

Wait wait wait, and this is a serious question:

 

You do realize he's not black, right?

[anarchistxx]

I did not realise that, no.

[Phil Schneider]

Jesus you would think that someone who hates black people would be able to tell them apart from Italians.

[Loss]

Steve Austin.

[jdw]

This needs a Goodhelmet Project for people to really be able to sink their teeth into it.

 

 

John

[smkelly]

Pre-Blonds "Stunning" Steve Austin

I haven't seen much of Austin during this stage in his career.

 

Hollywood Blonds

Could have been something more if he was booked properly. Him and Pillman could have been quite the force to reckon with. Losing in two straight falls against Flair/Anderson killed their momentum.

 

Post-Blonds "Stunning" Steve Austin

He was treated and booked even worse here. Losing to Jim Duggan in under a minute is ridiculous.

 

Steve Austin in ECW

Was able to showcase his incredible mic skills and charisma. I liked his comments about Bischoff.

 

The Ringmaster

The calm before the storm, a mere stepping stone into legend.

 

"Stone Cold" Steve Austin

The greatest period in American wrestling was due to this man, and his ability to do what every working American really desires. Injuries to his knees and neck considerably hindered the ability of Austin. But, his '01 run is by far one of the best runs a wrestler has ever had. He popularized wrestling into the mainstream and made alot of money for his boss. His catchphrase "What?" was cool/funny at first, but quickly ran it's course. His matches against Rock/Benoit/Angle are among the best the WWF has had since '00. His matches against Bret Hart in '96-'97 are among the greatest American matches in the last ten-fifteen years. His over the top segments (beer truck/concrete truck/gun/first stunner on Vince) are among the highest rated segments and overall best segments the WWF has ever produced. Austin had unlimited potential and could have had some mega-dream matches with Goldberg/Hogan if his pride and ego, along with injuries hadn't gotten in the way of things. His personal problems which caused him to walk away was a good decision.

 

"Stone Cold" Steve Austin post-retirement

An embarassment. In the same embarassment league as Foley.

[Jingus]

Post-Blonds "Stunning" Steve Austin

He was treated and booked even worse here. Losing to Jim Duggan in under a minute is ridiculous.

Not always. He had a decent feud against Dustin Rhodes, and a great one with Steamboat before Rick went down with injury. He was US champion, and until the Duggan bullshit and his injury soon after he was doing okay.

 

"Stone Cold" Steve Austin post-retirement

An embarassment. In the same embarassment league as Foley.

Sorry Loss, not trying to derail the thread further, but: Austin I can see being an embarassment, his appearance not really spiking ratings and his movie bombing. But Foley? He's continued to make money writing books, spent some time in ROH helping the talent develop, and has had a few awesome PPV matches. How is that embarassing?

[kjh]

The Ringmaster

 

A role that Austin was terribly miscast for. This was the ideal role for someone like a Chris Benoit or Dean Malenko who were technically gifted, but lacked charisma and needed a mouthpiece to speak for them. Indeed, I'm sure Benoit would have been given this grab bag gimmick if he signed with the WWF after his tryout with them in the summer of 1995.

 

I'm sure Austin knew that, but at the time he needed the job and it got his foot in the door. He deserves a lot of credit for persevering during this frustrating time and tinkering with his gimmick, so he was ready when he lucked into the opportunity of winning King Of The Ring, when the originally planned winner Hunter Hearst Helmsley was the scapegoat for the Clique's arrogant breach of kayfabe in Hall and Nash's goodbye to MSG. One gets the sense that Hunter doesn't realise that his big push being postponed until he was more ready for it was the best thing for his career, with all the complaining he's done about his burial, but I digress.

 

Going back to tinkering with his gimmick, I think people forget that his character evolved into "Stone Cold" over several months, it wasn't some complete repackaging out of nowhere at King of the Ring '96. It was only about two months after his debut on WWF TV that he started being referred to as "stone cold", wrestling a more aggressive, vicious style and had his head shaved and started growing a goatee for his revamped gimmick. By the end of May, he had lost DiBiase and the Million Dollar championship and started using the Stone Cold Stunner as his finisher. More later.

[smkelly]

Jingus the things you talk about happened three years ago.

 

The only reason Foley ever got over was due to his amazing promos, the ability to take life threatening bumps, and his terrific brawling skills. He's a mere shell of his former self. The last "awesome" match he's been in was the hardcore match with Edge at WM, and before that the hardcore match with Orton and the six man tag on Raw. Since that time, he hasn't really done anything worth while in the ring. He can still talk though. But his other skills are gone. I was actually excited to see him face Umaga a while back, but I was greatly disappointed. Foley is out of shape, slow, and cannot take the kind of bumps that made him famous. He's the perfect fit for a GM role on ECW, not a in-ring performer anymore.

[Jingus]

So, you didn't like his matches at One Night Stand and Summerslam, or you just forgot about them?

 

Of course he's broken down. Shit, with a career like his, what do you expect? The reason why he can't take those bumps anymore is because he took them in the first place.

[anarchistxx]

I still don't get why Foley was in that random 5-Way earlier in the year.

 

Was there a story behind that?

[smkelly]

And that's exactly my point Jingus. Outside of bump contests, bloody brawls, and thumbtacks/barbed wire, what else can Foley really do that's entertaining? He can talk, as I stated earlier. He should leave the in-ring performing to the younger, more able performers. It's not a dig to Foley, I am a fan of his.

 

I didn't like the ONS intergender tag match. Seemed like a blantant rip off of the big tag matches in ECW involving Foley-Funk-Douglas-Dreamer-Raven.

 

And the SummerSlam match against Flair was just painful to watch. I'm a huge Flair fan, and a huge Foley fan, but they've lost the magic they once had inside the ring. It's sad to watch Flair these days.

[jdw]

It's sad to watch Flair these days.

Ric was sad to watch years ago. Hell, watching him in with Vader was sad. It's moved past being sad. Now it's great comedy to watch how pathetic he is. The ladder match with Edge had me on the floor with how funny-bad it was.

 

 

John

[smkelly]

I didn't know a puro buff such as yourself would lower his standards and watch the WWF.

 

And yes, you are correct. I didn't emphasize enough how bad he's been for a while now.

 

When was Flair's last considerably good singles match?