The WON HOF 2007 thread

[Bix]

Looking over the new candidates...

 

The Dudley Boys (Bubba Ray & D-Von)

Ultimo Guerrero & Rey Bucanero

No. Guerreros were solid draws but unless/until they reunite their 5-6 year run isn't really remarkable enough to be HOF-worthy. Better than the Dudleys, though, who are pretty laughably bad candidates.

 

Gran Hamada

If you go by the slippery slope argument, he absolutely has to be in as he's basically a far superior version of Ultimo Dragon as far as his candidacy goes. Putting Ultimo aside, he's still a pretty decent, underrated candidate.

 

Satoshi Kojima

No.

 

Karloff Lagarde

Don't know enough. Need to hear Jose or Kurt lay out an argument for him.

 

Rey Mysterio

Yes, as explained above.

 

The Rock (Dwayne Johnson)

Of course.

 

Hans Schmidt

Enrique Torres

Universo 2000

Underrated, but no. Should really be Los Hermanos Dinamitas as a group.

 

Rob Van Dam

What? No.

 

Vampiro

An interesting case. I'm not really sure. Peaked really, really high as a draw, but I don't know if he really sustained it enough to be an HOFer.

 

NON-WRESTLER LIST

Jim Crockett Jr.

What year did he take over the company?

 

Gary Hart

From what I've seen, a really good heel manager in Florida & Texas, but I would have to see/learn more to say yes. '86-'87 WCCW may have exposed him as a booker to some degree, but he didn't have much to work with.

[Loss]

Pretty sure Crockett took over from his dad in 1975. So you'd be judging him as a promoter from 1975-1988, the time period in which Flair became a superstar and the territory expanded nationally. It didn't end well, but I think he has a better case than the already-inducted Bill Watts.

 

There's a perception that business was in the toilet in the early 80s, but I don't know how true that is, considering that is when he promoted the first Starrcade, and he controlled the world title.

[Guest teke184]

Pretty sure Crockett took over from his dad in 1975. So you'd be judging him as a promoter from 1975-1988, the time period in which Flair became a superstar and the territory expanded nationally. It didn't end well, but I think he has a better case than the already-inducted Bill Watts.

 

There's a perception that business was in the toilet in the early 80s, but I don't know how true that is, considering that is when he promoted the first Starrcade, and he controlled the world title.

It's more than a perception from the view of some of the territory's workers...

 

Barry Windham and Mike Rotunda, amongst others, jumped from Crockett to the WWF because the pay in the Carolinas sucked when Dusty took over.

 

 

It may not have been dead, but it was certainly down from what they've claimed.

[Loss]

I have trouble completely buying that. He ran the Meadowlands, he promoted Starrcade, he had the world champ. Maybe business was down from the late 70s, but I guess I need numbers.

[Guest teke184]

IMHO, the problem wasn't the big shows... the problem was the weekly towns like Greensboro, Charlotte, etc.

 

They only ran those super-cards every 4-6 months, so if you came in during a period between big shows you were getting paid jack-shit until a big holiday show like Starrcade rolled around.

[tomk]

Regarding Chris Benoit, here is the situation. For this year, things will stay status quo. Benoit was voted in and will remain in for another year. To try and get more of a detached situation, in 2008, we will have a recall election for Benoit.

Really?

 

That’s ridiculous and kind of embarrassing.

 

Does anyone talk about removing Phil Spector from the Rock N Roll HOF?

 

And besides which isn’t mainstream celebrity one of Meltzer’s “qualifications”? Hence his constant talks of Ventura. Benoit is a bigger mainstream celebrity now than ever before. Bigger mainstream celeb than a good chunk of the HOF.

 

Them being out are one of the HOF's biggest embarrassments, the only other one that comes close is Angle being in pretty much only because Dave's a mark for legitimacy.

Angle’s inclusion isn’t as embarrassing as Ultimo’s.

 

Angle isn’t in because of Dave’s “legitimacy” markdom.

 

Meltzer in his piece describing the difference between the various wrestling HOFs pointed out that what he thinks makes his “special” is the number of voters inside the biz. Angle is in because a large percentage of the Observer voters are people in the biz.

 

Angle is in because insecure pro wrestlers (people inside the biz) are legitimacy marks. Ole writes in his book how none of these guys today could have headline Georgia back in his day because they don’t know how to work and then makes the exception of Kurt Angle. Not because Angle works like Ole but because saying that is functional equivalent of saying “Yeah that stuff I did where I cut the ring in half and such, that’s just like gold level Olympic athletics.”

 

No way to do a HOF voted on by proffesional carnys without Angle getting in.

 

I don't think Rey should be in this year. Especially after the last thing people will remember him by is that horrible "For Eddie" title run. It wasn't all his fault but it really showed his weakness. If he retired in 98 after his injuries started to stall him, he'd be in already.

Why would a Rey who retired in 98 be a candidate to go in HOF?

The basis of his candidacy would be a lot weaker. A whole lot weaker. If Juventud retired in 98 would he be a candidate too?

 

he's been one of the biggest draw in the world for years

We know Rey is huge attendance and ratings star. Know that the Rey v Eddie storyline drew Austin v McMahon level ratings. But recently while reading one of these Meltz pieces on how the International market is subsidizing the domestic one, I wondered whether we underestimate Rey’s draw. Whenever anyone wrote about the WWE fad in Italy and Europe they always pointed to Rey as top star there (I think Italy only got Smackdown).

 

I have no numbers and don’t want to extrapolating as though patterns in Italian market= patterns in international market as a whole. But something I was thinking about.

 

 

Midnight Express (Dennis Condrey & Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane)

Reason for keeping Norvell off the ballot?

Is the MX with Norvell thought of as a lesser unit?

Or is it just lack of footage?

 

QUOTE

Gran Hamada

 

If you go by the slippery slope argument, he absolutely has to be in as he's basically a far superior version of Ultimo Dragon as far as his candidacy goes. Putting Ultimo aside, he's still a pretty decent, underrated candidate.

I’m always uncomfortable with the classification system in the HOF when it comes to Hamada’s candidacy.

 

Hamada is classified as a Mexican candidate.

 

If Hamada was being voted on opposite Japanese candidates, I could see making an argument that he’s more deserving than Saito, Akiyama, Kojima, Tamura, etc.

 

But he’s being voted on opposite Mexican luchadors. And him going on a HOF as Mexican candidate before Blue Panther, Villano III, Atlantis, etc would be wrong.

 

I cannot see anyone justifying a vote for Hamada over any other Mexican candidate. Unless Jose Lothario is being classified as Mexican. And why is Lothario even on this? For Mexican that meant nothing in Mexico was he bigger star than Pepper Gomez or Ricky Romero? Tito? Bigger than Chavo (who actually may have meant something in Mexico) in Cali? Than Black Gordman? If Lothario is a Mexican candidate than Hamada should go in above him.

[S.L.L.]

Here goes something.....

 

PERFORMERS LIST

 

Jun Akiyama: No

 

Gene & Ole Anderson: There has been much hemming and hawing over these two, to the point that what they really did or didn't do seems unknowable to me. I'd abstain

 

Masked Assassins (Jody Hamilton & Tom Renesto): Need more info

 

Red Bastien: Was he ever a draw? His style seems kinda influential, but I feel I'd need more than that

 

Carlos Colon: A slam dunk. Only real argument against him is whether or not you want to include a guy who was only really successful on a regional level. In this case, I say absolutely, unequivocally yes. And if he doesn't get in this year because he helped cover up the Brody murder, and Benoit doesn't get the boot next year for actually murdering people, then they're all out of reasons not to induct him

 

The Dudley Boys (Bubba Ray & D-Von): Is this some kind of rib?

 

Ultimo Guerrero & Rey Bucanero: What Bix said

 

Gran Hamada: The slippery slope says he should be in, but I say he shouldn't

 

Volk Han: Volk's a very interesting candidate due to the unique circumstances of his career. I couldn't see voting for him, myself.

 

Owen Hart: We are way past the point where pity votes will get him in, and he doesn't have much else going for him besides that.

 

Curt Hennig: We are way past the point where pity votes will get him in, and he doesn't have much else going for him besides that.

 

Chris Jericho: No

 

Satoshi Kojima: God, no

 

Ivan Koloff: Has a stronger case than many realize. One of the top drawing heels of his era, major Bruno rival, and, though my viewing of his stuff is limited, he's reputation as a worker has been changing for the better as of late. I'd say yes

 

Konnan: Say what you will about him in the ring, he's too big of a draw and too influential a figure in lucha to keep him out. Easy yes.

 

Karloff Lagarde: Kinda feel like he should've been inducted in the first class with Rene Guajardo as Los Rebeldes, but better late than never, says I

 

Jose Lothario: Ummmmm....am I mising something here?

 

Mark Lewin: Seems borderline to me...I'd need more info

 

Midnight Express (Dennis Condrey & Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane): I feel stronger about the Rock 'N' Rolls, but I'd say these guys belong

 

Bill Miller: Sounds like he was a big draw everywhere he went, and had a rep as a great worker. Part part of me wants to hear more of his story, but I think we can say yes with what we have.

 

Fabulous Moolah: No

 

Dick Murdoch: There should be someone out there who can tell me more about how big of a draw he was. I'd keep waiting

 

Rey Mysterio: Slam dunk for reasons people have already mentioned

 

Paul Orndorff: No

 

Blue Panther: Great worker, drew when put in the position to do so, long-time main event fixture, always valuable to his promotion in any number of roles....an easy yes

 

The Rock (Dwayne Johnson): Easiest of all possible yeses

 

Rock & Roll Express: Yes

 

Rick Rude: No

 

Sabu: No

 

Seiji Sakaguchi: Need more info other than "Inoki's little buddy"

 

Masa Saito: Need more info

 

Kensuke Sasaki: Kinda borderline due to his drawing power, but no

 

Hans Schmidt: Strong draw, rep is as a great worker, I say yes

 

Sgt. Slaughter: Borderline, I say no, but could be persuaded otherwise

 

Jimmy Snuka: If you're going to do a recall election for Benoit, it seems kinda pointless to induct Snuka

 

Wilbur Snyder: Borderline, need more info on his drawing power

 

Steiner Brothers: No

 

Sting: Could've been if certain things in his career happened differently, but as is, no

 

Kiyoshi Tamura: Borderline, but no

 

John Tolos: Borderline, would like to know more about his drawing power outside the Blassie feud

 

Enrique Torres: Big draw, big influence, main event fixture when California was a major wrestling hotbed, easy yes

 

Universo 2000: Borderline, but no. As part of Los Hermanos Dinamitas, an easy yes

 

Rob Van Dam: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAno

 

Villano III: Absolutely, for reasons that others have gone into great depth about elsewhere

 

Vampiro: Borderline. I don't know about the full scope of his popularity and influence in Mexico. Seems like a guy who would be an easy yes for me if I knew a bit more

 

Kerry Von Erich: No, but I could be persuaded otherwise

 

Dr. Wagner Sr.: One of the hottest acts in Mexico for much of his career, I say yes

 

Johnny "Mr. Wrestling II" Walker: Immensely popular in his heyday, long time main event fixture, he tends to get overlooked in these things, and I'm not really sure why. Yes

 

Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods: Needs more info

 

NON-WRESTLER LIST

 

Lou Albano: I need to know more of his story, but I always get the sense that he's a better candidate than most people give him credit for

 

Paco Alonso: Yes

 

Jim Crockett Jr.: Borderline no

 

Gary Hart: No

 

Jerry Jarrett: Borderline no

 

Gorilla Monsoon: I think he's actually a stronger candidate as a wrestler

 

Don Owen: No

 

Roy Shire: Yes

 

Jesse Ventura: No fucking way

 

In summation, my yes votes are:

 

Carlos Colon

Ivan Koloff

Konnan

Karloff Lagarde

Midnight Express (Dennis Condrey & Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane)

Bill Miller

Rey Mysterio

Blue Panther

The Rock

Rock & Roll Express

Hans Schmidt

Enrique Torres

Villano III

Dr. Wagner Sr.

Johnny "Mr. Wrestling II" Walker

Paco Alonso

Roy Shire

 

Which is problematic, since I'd only get 10 picks from the performers list, and I have 15. Wagner, Wrestling II, the Midnights, Miller, and Koloff are the easiest for me to excise for the time being, so....

 

Carlos Colon

Konnan

Karloff Lagarde

Rey Mysterio

Blue Panther

The Rock

Rock & Roll Express

Hans Schmidt

Enrique Torres

Villano III

Paco Alonso

Roy Shire

 

And there you have it.

[Loss]

I might as well label this a rhetorical question, but why is Bill Watts in the HOF as a promoter when Jim Crockett and Jerry Jarrett were more successful for a longer period of time and more competitive, but aren't?

[tomk]

So looked the actual people in Observer HOF as listed on wikipedia and Heyman in HOF is sillier than Ultimo. And why isn't Jack Pfefer in the HOF.

 

I mean really if Ultimo and Heyman are in as promoters/bookers...why not Pfefer?

[Guest KCook]

he's been one of the biggest draw in the world for years

We know Rey is huge attendance and ratings star. Know that the Rey v Eddie storyline drew Austin v McMahon level ratings. But recently while reading one of these Meltz pieces on how the International market is subsidizing the domestic one, I wondered whether we underestimate Rey's draw. Whenever anyone wrote about the WWE fad in Italy and Europe they always pointed to Rey as top star there (I think Italy only got Smackdown).

 

I have no numbers and don't want to extrapolating as though patterns in Italian market= patterns in international market as a whole. But something I was thinking about.

 

 

Rey was also the key to breaking into Mexico. That's a bigger deal than it seems, because they've been drawing huge crowds and charging a lot. The best seats at WWE shows are 2000 pesos, which is around $180 right now, and the cheapest seats are around $25, and this is in a country where GDP per capita is around $800 per month. Relative to the US, these Mexico shows are like selling 15,000 seats for a house show with the most expensive seats being $800 and the cheapest being $100. Another way to put it would be that Rey is drawing MMA money relative to the economy, which no one else in the world can do as far as I know.

 

I also think Rey has been a much bigger PPV draw than he gets credit for, as shows where he's had key matches or headlined have never done bang-up business, but they've always done much, much better than internal predictions, which always leads to hilarious Meltzer stuff: "WWE was predicting 90,000 domestic buys, and our response was terrible, but the show did 140,000 buys, and no one can figure out why..." I guess I understand why Meltzer wouldn't understand that Spanish-speaking audiences don't give PPV feedback to the Observer, but how is it that WWE still can't factor this into their projections or figure out why shows that shouldn't be drawing have drawn?

[Guest teke184]

I might as well label this a rhetorical question, but why is Bill Watts in the HOF as a promoter when Jim Crockett and Jerry Jarrett were more successful for a longer period of time and more competitive, but aren't?

Because Watts got in by acclimation in the first HOF and the other two didn't?

 

Because he was smart enough to con Crockett into buying out his broke ass?

 

Because Watts was part of the Georgia Wrestling War along with Jim Barnett and Eddie Graham that broke Ann Gunkel's outlaw promotion there?

 

 

 

I'd say that Jarrett is an easy choice because he kept Memphis around about 20-30 years with little to no outside help.

 

It's an area that no big wrestlers ever wanted to go to because it was a small market of die-hard fans as opposed to larger and more lucrative territories like Florida, the WWWF (DC, Philly, Baltimore, NYC, etc.), the Carolinas, etc.

 

 

 

Crockett is a tougher call because of how spectacularly things crashed in 1987.

 

It seems on par inducting Eric Bischoff for making WCW so successful from 1995 to 1998 without discussing how his excesses lead to the huge downfall in 1999 and 2000.

 

 

If someone can figure out how profitable the Carolinas were compared to other territories before they bought the TBS timeslot, that would make it easier to justify it.

 

 

 

 

Which reminds me... what other promoters are in the HOF besides Vince and Watts?

 

Are Jim Barnett, Paul Boesch, Eddie Graham, etc. in there as *promoters*?

 

(I'm rusty on the current HOF membership, but the three guys I listed should be slam-dunks if they're not already in there.)

[Bix]

Which reminds me... what other promoters are in the HOF besides Vince and Watts?

 

Are Jim Barnett, Paul Boesch, Eddie Graham, etc. in there as *promoters*?

 

(I'm rusty on the current HOF membership, but the three guys I listed should be slam-dunks if they're not already in there.)

All three went in the intial class. Wikipedia lists all of the members.

[Al]

Watts went in as a promoter but his time as a wrestler probably helped his cause tremendously.

 

Given a ballot I'd vote for Rey Misterio, the Rock, the Rock 'n' Roll Express, Sgt. Slaughter, Bill Miller, and Hans Schmidt. I'd have four more choices and I'd use them after some further research. In the non-performer category I'd take Jim Crockett and Gorilla Monsoon. Monsoon may raise some eyebrows. I figure you have a guy who was an amateur champion, credible heel in the '60s, good face in the '70s, acceptable commentator in the '80s, and influential backstage worker and promoter (Puerto Rico) all the while. Very few in the industry can match his credentials.

[Jingus]

Plus he helped back Vince Jr. in his buyout of the company. Without Monsoon, the WWF and wrestling as we know it today might've never come about.

 

Why isn't Ventura an easy gimme? He's the only worker to ever achieve that kind of political office in this country.

[Loss]

Because his wrestling career itself was not really HOF worthy. Does being a governor have anything to do with wrestling?

[kjh]

And why is Lothario even on this?

The Funks are marks for him and goaded Dave to put him on the ballot.

 

I might as well label this a rhetorical question, but why is Bill Watts in the HOF as a promoter when Jim Crockett and Jerry Jarrett were more successful for a longer period of time and more competitive, but aren't?

If Jim Crockett Jr and Jerry Jarrett were the top stars of their promotion, they'd be in the HOF too, as Watts is someone in mainly for his wrestling career, but gets tossed into the promoter's bucket too because he was one with some success.

 

I'd say that Jarrett is an easy choice because he kept Memphis around about 20-30 years with little to no outside help.

I'd say it was Jerry Lawler who was the person who kept Memphis wrestling around for so long.

[Jingus]

Because his wrestling career itself was not really HOF worthy. Does being a governor have anything to do with wrestling?

But isn't "mainstream fame" supposed to count here? Governor of a state, regular cast member in big movies, best-selling autobiographies, so forth & so on. Plus, he's one of only two guys to do color commentary for both Wrestlemania and Starrcade.

[Loss]

If his wrestling career and mainstream fame were not totally independent of each other, I'd think there was a case. But he didn't become famous because of anything having to do with wrestling.

[Jingus]

If he wasn't so well known for being a wrestling personality, I doubt he would've ever been in movies and then had the name recognition to run for governor. I mean, this guy is easily in the top 5 most recognizable wrestlers on earth, there are probably millions of people who've never heard of Ric Flair but know exactly who Jesse the Body is. And regardless of where they first heard his name, they all know he was a wrestler. Why wouldn't that be HOF-worthy?

[Guest teke184]

If he wasn't so well known for being a wrestling personality, I doubt he would've ever been in movies and then had the name recognition to run for governor. I mean, this guy is easily in the top 5 most recognizable wrestlers on earth, there are probably millions of people who've never heard of Ric Flair but know exactly who Jesse the Body is. And regardless of where they first heard his name, they all know he was a wrestler. Why wouldn't that be HOF-worthy?

He got in the movies because he's been Arnold Schwartzeneggar's buddy for a long time, going back to when they were working out together at Gold's Gym down in Venice Beach.

 

Them being good friends, along with Jesse's look, got Jesse into both Predator and Running Man after his in-ring career died. His wrestling persona probably *did* help him with the roles, though, as he knew how to play both a badass and a heel on-screen, saying lines like "I ain't got time to bleed" with a straight face and not looking pathetic while doing it.

 

 

 

He got his big break in politics, though, BECAUSE he's a wrestler, as the name recognition helped him run a third-party campaign to win the governorship of a large state with virtually no money spent in comparison to his competition.

 

(Current US Senator Norm Coleman won about 40% of the vote. "Skip" Humphrey, son of former Senator and VP Hubert H. Humphrey III, got about 15%. Ventura got about 45%. All pre-election polling had Ventura at 15% and Humphrey at about 45%.)

[kjh]

I mean, this guy is easily in the top 5 most recognizable wrestlers on earth, there are probably millions of people who've never heard of Ric Flair but know exactly who Jesse the Body is. And regardless of where they first heard his name, they all know he was a wrestler. Why wouldn't that be HOF-worthy?

Yeah, Jesse Ventura was in one of the biggest news stories featuring a wrestler ever, but Owen Hart was in a bigger one. Should he be in the HOF too, because his death led to him becoming more famous than the majority of wrestlers already inducted?

 

The key to Ventura's candidacy in my eyes is how big a historical impact he had on the wrestling business. I'd argue that though his election as Governer of Minnesota led to a lot of positive publicity for professional wrestling in the short term, his actions as Governor quickly eroded that good will. In particular, working as a special guest referee at SummerSlam 1999, mere weeks after criticising the WWF in the aftermath of Owen Hart's death, led to a lot of criticism that he was privately profiting from his heightened fame and made him look like just another sleazy carny huckster.

[S.L.L.]

If he wasn't so well known for being a wrestling personality, I doubt he would've ever been in movies and then had the name recognition to run for governor. I mean, this guy is easily in the top 5 most recognizable wrestlers on earth, there are probably millions of people who've never heard of Ric Flair but know exactly who Jesse the Body is. And regardless of where they first heard his name, they all know he was a wrestler. Why wouldn't that be HOF-worthy?

His mainstream fame would be a really strong bonus for another candidate, but do you really want to put a guy in just for his mainstream fame. I mean, if Jesse Ventura goes in because of mainstream fame and a political career, it's kinda hard to explain why that Abraham Lincoln guy isn't even on the ballot. If mainstream fame and a non-wrestling media career gets Ventura in, what's keeping Ted Turner off of the ballot. Or if you want a less severe example, George "The Animal" Steele is a bigger name to the mainstream than most guys in the Hall. Are you ready to induct him?

[Guest KCook]

Just as a side note, one of the hilarious things about Meltzer's Ventura fetish is his absolute ignorance of politics. Minnesota is completely off the map politically in a lot of ways, which you can probably trace back to the descent of many of its people from northern Europe. It's not just that socialists can get respectful hearings or that Paul Wellstone could get elected there, it's that the whole state has a really deeply rooted relation to a kind of leftism that's akin in some ways to European Green politics and a kind of agrarian conservatism that has some relation to anarchism. These people just do not like our system of governance. Of course they'd elect Jesse Ventura! They elected him because he's a fucking clown and was thus a good way for them to show their contempt for politics. This a state where Al Franken is probably going to win a Senate race next year. I'm not sure "being a fucking clown" is the kind of mainstream achievement wrestling fans sometimes seem to think it is.

[Jingus]

Part of why I'm making this argument is because his nomination is on the Non-Wrestler list. He's being inducted for his announcing career, not his in-ring one. And most of that transpired after he was already famous from Predator and the like. And, like I said, only one of three guys to do commentary for both Wrestlemania and Starrcade, and the other two (Ross & Heenan) are already inducted.

 

Also: he's one of the few guys who ever attempted to set up a union, and one of the VERY few to ever sue Vince and win. Plus, as for "influence", I don't recall Superstar Graham wearing those feather boas that Hogan later became so fond of.

 

Along similar lines, why is Rock a slam dunk if Ventura is a no-go? Rocky's way better known for his movie career than anything in the ring. Yeah, he drew a lot more money than Ventura, but his career was shorter (and who knows what kind of business a Ventura-Hogan program for Wrestlemania might've done if Jesse hadn't been forced into retirement).

 

Yeah, Jesse Ventura was in one of the biggest news stories featuring a wrestler ever, but Owen Hart was in a bigger one. Should he be in the HOF too, because his death led to him becoming more famous than the majority of wrestlers already inducted?

That's an irrelevant and tasteless comparison.

[Bix]

Yeah, Jesse Ventura was in one of the biggest news stories featuring a wrestler ever, but Owen Hart was in a bigger one. Should he be in the HOF too, because his death led to him becoming more famous than the majority of wrestlers already inducted?

That's an irrelevant and tasteless comparison.

It's really, really not on both counts.