The WON HOF 2007 thread

[Guest *FH*]

Rock & Roll Express: Their years as a top act weren't that many and they worked a very patterned style. No.

As opposed to Flair, Hogan, and too many others to mention in the HOF who worked such a varied style? WTF?

[sek69]

It's maddening that people like Mitchell have votes for the HOF when they clearly demonstrate how up their own ass they can be when it comes to their rationale.

 

Seriously, if you don't think the RnR's are HOF-worthy you really shouldn't be given the power to vote.

[Jingus]

* Steiner Brothers: There were a great strong-style team internationally for many years.

There are not enough L's and O's in the world to place next to each other to express how I feel.

 

Somewhere around here, I've got a few printouts of old Mitchell articles, including at least two from the early 90s where I specifically remember him knocking the Steiners' lousy workrate at the time.

 

But at least he's consistently never liked the RnR, for some reason he always took shots at them for their age/gimmick, calling them "the world's oldest teenagers" and such.

[tomk]

Steiner Brothers: There were a great strong-style team internationally for many years

I assume him voting for Steiners has more to do with having the most superficial understanding of what they meant internationally.

As a caveat to this I should point out that whenever you read an interview with Dr. Wagner Jr in the 90s he always says american worker he most wanted to have a match with was Rick Steiner. Always made me laugh.

[Loss]

Rey also apparently cites Scott Steiner as the reason he became a wrestler.

[Resident Evil]

I honostly can't see how anyone couldn't vote for the Steiners. The most believable tag team of all time who were draws and energised crowds like few others. A sure lock for me.

[Bix]

I honostly can't see how anyone couldn't vote for the Steiners. The most believable tag team of all time who were draws and energised crowds like few others. A sure lock for me.

What? No.

[Guest *FH*]

Stiffing the ever loving shit out of dudes = working believably.

[S.L.L.]

Jumping in the air, grabbing a dude's head with your ankles, flipping backwards, and maintaining the grip to propel him overhead to the mat = working believably

[Guest *FH*]

I've bulldogged dudes off friends' shoulders in real fights many, many times. Then I run in circles barking.

[Cox]

* Midnight Express (Dennis Condrey & Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane): The Midnight Express are the best tag team of the last 24 years. They were better in the ring at their peak than any team that followed all these years later. They were the top of huge drawing programs with Bill Watts and the Junkyard Dog in Mid-South and The Rock & Roll express in Jim Crockett Promotions. Also, Jim Cornette shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame alone.

Wait, so the Rock 'n' Roll didn't work enough years on top, but the MX did? Really?

 

Rock & Roll Express: Their years as a top act weren't that many and they worked a very patterned style. No.

LOL at the biggest Ric Flair mark ever saying that ANYBODY works a patterned style. Also LOL at the fact that he's still running the Front Row Section D gimmick 20 years later. I bet he's still pissed that Dusty's in.

 

* Steiner Brothers: There were a great strong-style team internationally for many years. Yeah, they get in, because their in-ring work pulls up any problem in the other two criteria.

Their working prime was late 1989 to early 1991, roughly a year and a half. We're really going to put the Steiner Brothers in the Hall of Fame for a year and a half's worth of work? Shouldn't longevity mean something?

[Loss]

What's funny is that during the Steiners' working prime, Morton and Gibson were in the same company working as a nostalgia team and were having better matches with largely the same opponents. Washed up Morton and Gibson >> in their primes Rick and Scott.

[S.L.L.]

Rock & Roll Express: Their years as a top act weren't that many and they worked a very patterned style. No.

But the team that formed the other half of that pattern is the best team of the last 24 years?

[tomk]

What's funny is that during the Steiners' working prime, Morton and Gibson were in the same company working as a nostalgia team and were having better matches with largely the same opponents. Washed up Morton and Gibson >> in their primes Rick and Scott.

Well I think pretty obvious that RnR v Heavenly bodies from WWF smokes Steiners v Heavenly Bodies from WWF. But I doubt you're arguing that WWF Steiners was prime Steiners. And I assume Resident Evil would tell you that Steiners v Heavenly Bodies was better because it was worked like proto-Smackdown Six with lots of meaningless moves to get pops.

 

But assuming we're talking WCW Steiner 89-91 as prime:

 

I remember watching RNR v Doom shortly after watching a ton of Brainbusters in WWF and being struck by how much better the RNR v Doom was then any Brainbuster match. I liked RnR v Doom a bunch but would be uncomfortable pimping it as in the top twenty tag matches in WCW that year.

 

I haven't watched Steiners v Doom as recently as I watched RnR v Doom.

 

Watching lots of Mid-South has made me want to watch as much Butch Reed as I can get my hands on so I should start tracking down Doom matches.

 

But are you arguing RocknRoll v Doom>Steiners v Doom.

[Loss]

Yes. And I was referring to 1989-1991 as the prime.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Regarding the Steiners: Meltzer said once that Sting would never get into the HOF, and I'm thinking that if the guy who headlined WCW's biggest show ever doesn't qualify, then neither do two guys who spent most of their careers working the semi-mains and undercards in that same promotion.

[Loss]

I was trying to think of if anyone had a HOF-level run from 1988-2001 under Turner, or more specifically if anyone wouldn't be in the HOF without the strength of their WCW run.

 

Flair? Would have been a HOF pick prior to the Turner buyout.

 

Funk? The same.

 

Hogan? Would have been a HOF pick prior to coming to WCW.

 

Savage and Piper? The same.

 

Steamboat may not be in without the Flair series in '89, but he's really the only one I can think of who had his case made because of his WCW run.

 

On the flip side (and yes, this is a completely different category of discussion than the first part of this post), you have a lot of guys who are voted in on the strengths of their WWF runs, but who never would have gotten those runs without being in WCW first.

 

Benoit and Guerrero, only because the WWF would have never taken a look at them had WCW not hired them first. Same for Rey possibly. Who knows if the WWF would have ever been interested in Steve Austin without his long WCW run either? He probably would have been hired eventually, but maybe several years earlier before he was ready to break out, and it would have been much harder for him to finally get to the top.

 

Without his WCW run as Cactus Jack, Foley would have never had a WWF run.

 

In Austin and Foley's case, I'm trying to be careful how I word it because they both benefitted from friendship with the WWF-employed Jim Ross, but probably wouldn't have had that relationship if not for wrestling in WCW when JR was there.

 

Maybe Jim Ross is in the HOF partially because of his great announcing from 1988-1992 in WCW.

 

Maybe Vader, but Vader is like Benoit, Dynamite, etc. in that he's in for the ringwork, and I tend to think if he was a stateside guy his whole career, he wouldn't be getting in any Hall of Fame. The voters tend to favor guys who were big internationally.

 

Am I missing anyone?

[kjh]

Benoit and Guerrero, only because the WWF would have never taken a look at them had WCW not hired them first.

Actually I think Benoit would have gotten into the WWF eventually through his connection with the Harts. He did have a tryout with the WWF shortly before he joined WCW in 1995, but I think a deal couldn't be struck because Vince was unwilling to work around his Japanese dates. That said, I doubt he would have gotten above the level of a dependable mid card technician if he had never made his name in WCW first.

[jdw]

The Rock & Rolls were a big part of Crockett's success in 1985-1986 as well. There were lots of things clicking in JCP at that point, but the Rock & Rolls programs with the Russians, Midnight Express and Four Horsemen were all hugely successful. Flair/Morton was drew well, and they had some great matches.

I worry about this one to a degree.

 

Crockett shows typically drew a lot less when Flair wasn't on the card. Those cards were often pretty loaded up with "hot" feuds and/or matches. Things like the RnR vs. MX, RW vs. Russians, some combo of Dusty-Maggie-Tully feud.

 

I'm not saying that they weren't a draw. They were. But I've also seen too many WONs back in those days about how they weren't drawing absent Ric that I'd like to see someone work up their drawing power as Crocket went national.

 

I don't have a problem with the RnR and the MX (especially if it was the "MX with Jim Cornette" going in as a group).

 

 

John

[Resident Evil]

What's funny is that during the Steiners' working prime, Morton and Gibson were in the same company working as a nostalgia team and were having better matches with largely the same opponents. Washed up Morton and Gibson >> in their primes Rick and Scott.

Well I think pretty obvious that RnR v Heavenly bodies from WWF smokes Steiners v Heavenly Bodies from WWF. But I doubt you're arguing that WWF Steiners was prime Steiners. And I assume Resident Evil would tell you that Steiners v Heavenly Bodies was better because it was worked like proto-Smackdown Six with lots of meaningless moves to get pops.

 

But assuming we're talking WCW Steiner 89-91 as prime:

 

I remember watching RNR v Doom shortly after watching a ton of Brainbusters in WWF and being struck by how much better the RNR v Doom was then any Brainbuster match. I liked RnR v Doom a bunch but would be uncomfortable pimping it as in the top twenty tag matches in WCW that year.

 

I haven't watched Steiners v Doom as recently as I watched RnR v Doom.

 

Watching lots of Mid-South has made me want to watch as much Butch Reed as I can get my hands on so I should start tracking down Doom matches.

 

But are you arguing RocknRoll v Doom>Steiners v Doom.

 

Quick points before I have to go.

 

Wow. Different worlds altogether. Wow. When did the Steiners backlash start? Is there anything safe from backlash? Who's next?

 

Don't know if I've ever seen Steiners vs Heavenly Bodies. I think I may have have but I've forgotten about it. Same deal with the Bodies vs the Expres so I don't know what I'd tell you about what match is better. I'd have to watch them again. I can tell you that I do like believability in my matches so the Steiners always have an advantage over the Express who I like but I don't find as believable or as aweinspiring.

 

I don't like blanket statements like proto smackdown six with lots of meaningless moves to get pops especially when a good portion of the matches were constructed well.

 

Steiners were great up until at least 94 in my opinion and popular in both New Japan and WCW. THe tag team where you buy them being as good as or even better than the main event kayfabe wise. I think they left a terrific impression on the fanbase. People aren't putting this into perspective here especially what it was like at the time to watch the Steiners wrestle at the time. It was somewhat similar to watching Tiger Mask wrestle in the 80s.

 

Influential in making others around them up their game. I would also say you can sit bits and pieces of their influence years later when they helped bring in a more realistic, more inspired style (at times) in wrestling.

 

Don't care for their stiffing people but did like their aggression.

 

I happy for the Express getting in the Hall of Fame. They deserve it.

[Resident Evil]

Benoit and Guerrero, only because the WWF would have never taken a look at them had WCW not hired them first.

Actually I think Benoit would have gotten into the WWF eventually through his connection with the Harts. He did have a tryout with the WWF shortly before he joined WCW in 1995, but I think a deal couldn't be struck because Vince was unwilling to work around his Japanese dates. That said, I doubt he would have gotten above the level of a dependable mid card technician if he had never made his name in WCW first.

 

Bret Hart if I remember him correctly was trying to get Benoit in along with his brother Owen very early in his career. Perhaps as early as 1988 for Benoit. Bret would've looked after him in the WWF. I think he would've done well there especially with his talent level. However, it would've been an undeniable uphill battle for him.

[jdw]

Rey getting hired and getting over opened the door for lots of smaller guys to get hired and get over.

In WWE? The same promotion where currently you have to be over 6 foot tall and a muscular 225 pounds to even be considered for a developmental contract unless your dad was in the business. The fact is very few smaller guys are getting hired and if they are lucky enough to be hired and promoted to the main roster they aren't pushed past the meaningless cruiserweight or tag divisions. Rey is an anomaly within WWE, not some sort of trendsetter that changed Vince McMahon's narrow perceptions about what a wrestler should look like.

 

That said, I don't disagree that Rey's influence was phenomenal, but more for the reasons Kevin Cook suggested.

 

This is fairly close to how I would see Rey's impact/influence.

 

I think one of the problem with influence and impact is that 100% of the credit for something tends to be given to whatever candidate you're talking about at the moment.

 

I'll go to an extreme here. Funaki was getting just about 100% of the credit for MMA in Japan when the Marching And Chowder Society was behind him as a candidate. The impact of Maeda or Takada or Sakuraba was ignored while pimping Funaki, which was pretty silly.

 

That's one example.

 

We've seen it with the "He's Small And Opened The Door For Small Wrestlers" influence/impact be given to Shawn when it was his time to get pimped. We've seen it given to Benoit. And of course Rey.

 

I tend to wish that it was a bit more realistic in how it's talked about and given out.

 

To a degree, Rey's impact and influence in Pro Wrestling should be monsterous and massive. It would be if the WWE and WCW were such a bunch of brainless fuckups. It is a credit to Rey that despite what a bunch of fuckups that he has had a pretty strong impact and influence on the business.

 

But... I worry about seeing it overpimped like Shawn's was.

 

 

John

[jdw]

Them being out are one of the HOF's biggest embarrassments, the only other one that comes close is Angle being in pretty much only because Dave's a mark for legitimacy.

Angle’s inclusion isn’t as embarrassing as Ultimo’s.

 

Angle isn’t in because of Dave’s “legitimacy” markdom.

 

Meltzer in his piece describing the difference between the various wrestling HOFs pointed out that what he thinks makes his “special” is the number of voters inside the biz. Angle is in because a large percentage of the Observer voters are people in the biz.

 

Angle is in because insecure pro wrestlers (people inside the biz) are legitimacy marks. Ole writes in his book how none of these guys today could have headline Georgia back in his day because they don’t know how to work and then makes the exception of Kurt Angle. Not because Angle works like Ole but because saying that is functional equivalent of saying “Yeah that stuff I did where I cut the ring in half and such, that’s just like gold level Olympic athletics.”

 

No way to do a HOF voted on by proffesional carnys without Angle getting in.

That's the most entertaining thing I've read in the thread so far. Sorry for the Quote+One Sentence... but people need to read it again.

 

 

John

[jdw]

I might as well label this a rhetorical question, but why is Bill Watts in the HOF as a promoter when Jim Crockett and Jerry Jarrett were more successful for a longer period of time and more competitive, but aren't?

Memory fails me since it was likely little more than turning the page of the Gong mag, Watt's picture being there, and a "yes" from Dave breing it. But I doubt Dave gave or gives Bill credit just as a promoter. There's that "top heel" stuff, Major Bruno Opponent stuff, "considered for the NWA Title" stuff that Dave always marks for (even the ones that don't pass the laught test), the Gifted Booker stuff in Florida under Graham (Dave loved FL and spent summers out there with family)... and then finally the Promoter stuff.

 

Crockett is a bit like the "Small Man Influence" credit game. If you've ever seen some of the Hall Of Fame and Andersons thread over on Wrestling Classics, the credit for Mid-Atlantic is credited to everyone in sight. Flair, Wahoo, Johnny Valentine, the Andersons, Super Genuis Booker George Scott, Steamer... I'm probably forgetting some. Crockett's name doesn't usually get mentioned... if only because he hasn't been debated much there.

 

I'm not knocking Crockett as a candidate. Just pointing out that he's part of a long line of people being giving credit for Mid Atlantic being the greatest promotion of all-time, or some such thing.

 

 

John

[jdw]

So looked the actual people in Observer HOF as listed on wikipedia and Heyman in HOF is sillier than Ultimo. And why isn't Jack Pfefer in the HOF.

 

I mean really if Ultimo and Heyman are in as promoters/bookers...why not Pfefer?

Heyman was a funny one. WON HOFers as Bingo Hall goers drinking the Kool-Aid.

 

 

John