Negro Casas vs Terry Funk

[Rah]

I have a feeling this is going to be quite one-sided but I'm interested nonetheless.

If you had a gun to my head, these would be my automatic #1 and #2 candidates yet if I think of what they bring to the table, I'm not sure they're the best at anything they do. Excellent at everything, sure, but the best? No. They're both holistic candidates in that regard with fantastic peaks, crazy longevity (Casas is still Casas in the year of our lord 2021, fgs!) and both having a bit of downtime in their careers.

Whos' ya boy?

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm gonna go with Casas on this one. I'm not really a Terry Funk guy. I love listening to his promos, but he's not a guy who I get immediately excited about when it comes to a match. And he doesn't represent wrestling to me like he does to so many other people. In fact, I went down a YouTube foxhole recently and wound up watching his roast, and I was interested in the part where Funk started listing the guys who represented wrestling to him when he was coming up in the business. Terry's a legend in the business, no doubt, but I don't think he's everything. I am interested in watching more of his 70s work if I get the chance. I didn't realize that we had some agnostics on the forum when it comes to Casas. That's interesting. 

[Loss]

I'd have Funk ahead at this point, but I'm open to hearing the case for Casas. I would like to see some of his biggest advocates make the week-to-week case for Negro Casas, especially focused on the smaller matches.

[Matt D]

I’m willing to look at him week to week for a few months in a year he doesn’t have an apuestas match, 2005? 2008? 2011? So long as the footage is complete and readily available.

[ohtani's jacket]

I need some clarification on this week-to-week thing. If you're talking about three trios and an apuesta/title match then there are few better. If you're talking about three random matches on TV from Arena Coliseo or Arena Mexico then not so. The thing is, I just watched a run of CMLL where Santo & Casas had a great match against Ultimo & Rey which moved into a Ultimo vs. Santo tease until CMLL and Santo had a falling out, or Santo fucked off for whatever reason, and Casas picked up the slack. It wasn't as good, but they plugged away and Shocker and Mascara Magica got involved, and Vampiro, and now they've set up Casas vs. Tarzan Boy, which is a great match-up. And the thing is, in between all that, Casas changed his wrestling style to a brawling style focused on punching and looked fantastic against GdI. Now if you expect Casas to look amazing in every match, it's not going to happen. Chad and I have mentioned the lulls lately. But what do we have week-to-week from Funk? Some All Japan tours? Funk benefits from random, isolated footage. Funk benefits from "we don't have much of him but what we do have is awesome." Funk benefits from "here's a new Terry Funk match that nobody's seen before that adds to his legacy." Casas was probably that way in the past, too. I am sure if we got random pre-92 Casas matches spring up that he would benefit in the same way that Funk does. There's never going to be a level playing field in these arguments, but I will say that the '93 trios matches I watched recently, which is for all intents and purposes a random watch, where I put Casas over as at the height of his powers, to me that is no different from how people judge Funk. 

[Matt D]

I learned to love Casas watching him weekly in 2013-2015 (maybe 14-16) in random trios, albeit on the path to Rush. That’s what got him to number 2 on my list as much as his big feuds and 90s stuff, so I’m happy to go through a random few months I may not have seen comprehensively and explore if that holds up and explain it to others.

[Loss]

My point is that there aren't really periods in Funk's career or famous programs that we haven't talked about on this board.

Could someone name the best matches Negro Casas has had on tape every year of his career (for the years we have something)? I have no concept of what he was doing in 1993, 1994 or 1995 for the most part, for example. It seems to always just go back to the matches everyone knows about.

[Boss Rock]

I went with Funk due to having higher peaks and having success wearing more hats. But I think Casas has him beat in volume and longevity. I've never been crazy about Funk's 70's work. And it's not like Casas isn't versatile either. 

[Matt D]

1 hour ago, Loss said:

My point is that there aren't really periods in Funk's career or famous programs that we haven't talked about on this board.

Could someone name the best matches Negro Casas has had on tape every year of his career (for the years we have something)? I have no concept of what he was doing in 1993, 1994 or 1995 for the most part, for example. It seems to always just go back to the matches everyone knows about.

Honest question. Is there any lucha candidate you could say that about though? Could you give a comprehensive narrative of El Dandy's career and feuds in order or Satanico? Hijo Del Santo even?

[ohtani's jacket]

2 hours ago, Loss said:

My point is that there aren't really periods in Funk's career or famous programs that we haven't talked about on this board.

Could someone name the best matches Negro Casas has had on tape every year of his career (for the years we have something)? I have no concept of what he was doing in 1993, 1994 or 1995 for the most part, for example. It seems to always just go back to the matches everyone knows about.

I haven't gone through Mike Tenay's entire collection yet, but Casas' 93 is built around the Ultimo Dragon title match and trios and the La Fiera hair match and trios. There is also the long Casas/Dandy vs. Jericho/Ultimo tag that personally I'm not a fan of. In '94 his major program is an apuesta feud with Mocho Cota that leads to an oddly structured hair match. In '95, his big feud is against Santo leading to their match at the Anniversary Show. I haven't seen much lucha from '95. IIRC, Segunda Caida have reviewed some of it. I don't know if there are any hidden gems outside of the Ultimo, Cota & Santo feuds. He may have some good performances here and there. 

[Loss]

2 hours ago, Matt D said:

Honest question. Is there any lucha candidate you could say that about though? Could you give a comprehensive narrative of El Dandy's career and feuds in order or Satanico? Hijo Del Santo even?

No, we don't. And my argument would be that we should probably have this for them to the extent it's possible, since we do for the top contenders in the US and Japan.

[Loss]

3 hours ago, Cien Caras said:

We have to accept that in 20+ years of online wrestling discourse, the approach to lucha from western fans hasn’t changed nor will ever change. We are still at the stage where most are unable to watch it other than a US/Japan centric lens of singles matches and most recommendations I see for lucha are still singles matches, especially those that are “accessible” ie adhere more to the US/Japan structures and tropes. However singles matches are the exceptions not the rules, lucha can only be appreciated in trios matches, the different rhythms and dynamics there. It’s all out there, but the majority will never watch it vs a curated set of singles matches.

As for Casas vs Funk, this is the toughest one yet and the one where I can’t immediately decide. Both are magnificent and transcendent in their own ways.

I think this is an extremely valid point and really cuts to the heart of it. Most lucha matches are trios matches, but most highly recommended and talked about matches are singles matches. 

I'm not saying the biggest Casas fans haven't presented his case. They absolutely have. I had him in the top five (don't remember exactly where at the moment) last time and ahead of Funk. With hindsight, I think that was in haste. It may have been deserved, but ... it seems sometimes like a lot of the people (not those posting in this thread) who have the biggest complaints with Great Match Theory make the case for the luchadores on Great Match Theory. 

[cad]

There are times when CMLL workers, even alltime greats at their peak like Casas in the early 1990s, don't have anything going on, at least not on TV. Between their own programs they'll show up as backup during other wrestlers' feuds, or they'll just work random matches, getting their paydays and pleasing the people who wanted to see them. There are also invisible programs that they'll be working, where they'll have the title match and the exciting matches that build to it, but it's all at Arena Coliseo Acapulco, or one of the untaped Sunday shows in Mexico City, or maybe a non-CMLL territory like Monterrey, so it's not something we can watch in 2021. It's different from the WWF where the untelevised shows are usually just guys working whoever they're partnered with on TV at the moment, but where pretty much everyone important is involved in an angle at all times.

Other than the matches listed above, I guess the most interesting thing about Casas in 1993-95 is that he turned tecnico and back to rudo in that span. He spent much of spring/summer '93 as part of the Felino-Ciclon Ramirez program, and it looked like they were setting up an angle between Casas and Felino. Either they weren't, or it was the slowest developing turn of all time, because Casas didn't start teaming with the tecnicos until June 1994. The catalyst, IIRC, was Emilio Charles and Bestia Salvaje beating him up after he lost a match for them, but instead of seeking revenge on them he just dredged up his rivalry with Mocho Cota, which had drawn a decent house for them as a rudo vs rudo program in March. Then Santo joined the promotion in summer of 1995 and Casas almost immediately returned to the rudo side to feud with him.

[ohtani's jacket]

Anyone who doubts Casas needs to watch the Tarzan Boy feud. Hot damn. 

[Childs]

19 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Anyone who doubts Casas needs to watch the Tarzan Boy feud. Hot damn. 

That's from 2002, right?

[ohtani's jacket]

Yeah. The hair match is not talked about a lot, so I doubt that it's a classic, but the two trios I watched are awesome. 

[Grimmas]

I think even if weekly trios nothing matches aren't great, doesn't mean they don't add to the case. Casas shows he is a smart and great worker in every one of those, even hohum matches.

These two are fighting for the top male spot on my list, so hard to weight in too much here.

[Loss]

1 hour ago, Grimmas said:

I think even if weekly trios nothing matches aren't great, doesn't mean they don't add to the case. Casas shows he is a smart and great worker in every one of those, even hohum matches.

These two are fighting for the top male spot on my list, so hard to weight in too much here.

Ok, but which specific trios matches? That's what I'm saying. Instead of speaking to his greatness in a general sense, what are the specific trios matches you'd say, "These are the ones to watch to understand the Casas case."

[Loss]

2 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Anyone who doubts Casas needs to watch the Tarzan Boy feud. Hot damn. 

To be clear, I don't doubt Casas. I see him as upper echelon. I just think large swaths of his career that made tape have gone largely not talked about.

[Grimmas]

8 minutes ago, Loss said:

Ok, but which specific trios matches? That's what I'm saying. Instead of speaking to his greatness in a general sense, what are the specific trios matches you'd say, "These are the ones to watch to understand the Casas case."

I have yet to see any trios match where Casas wasn't doing something good in. The matches are all really forgettable, so not sure what to even recommend. It's like saying this person is awesome in squash matches, you don't need to really recommend a squash match, just pick any at random. It will basically all tell the same story. The majority of lucha is not meant to produce anything worthwhile, unfortunately, doesn't mean there aren't good performers in it. The problem is Casas may only get a few minutes here and there in a whole match, he'll be awesome in those few minutes, but the match is almost nothing.

To summarize, I don't think there are really recs out there, just pick some random shit and you'll see him be cool even if it's in very little bursts of a nothing boring match.

[Loss]

I think that's well and good for calling someone a great wrestler, but for someone with a #1 case, I think you really need a full jdw-style pimping post.

[Grimmas]

Just now, Loss said:

I think that's well and good for calling someone a great wrestler, but for someone with a #1 case, I think you really need a full jdw-style pimping post.

He's not my #1, maybe #1 male. He's behind Hokuto and Nakano, for sure. So at most #3, probably lower.

Casas that high, I don't know if I'd want people to watch a boring ass 30 minute match for 5 great minutes of Casas mixed in, to make his case. Those just add to his case, they aren't his case. His case is made when he's given the opportunity to produce and when given those chances, damn does he delivery (as you know). 

It sucks that lucha is a style and the way it's booked does not make for great weekly watching.

[Grimmas]

13 minutes ago, Cien Caras said:

Sorry Grimmas but that is an unbelievably wrong statement. I don’t have time to go into the details now but it highlights the biggest flaw of this project which is still coming down to “show me a list of great matches” or trying to quantify a case.

I agree show me a list of matches is the wrong way to go. I agree with you on that, and was what I was getting at. Would love to know what I was wrong about so I can improve.

[Childs]

12 minutes ago, Cien Caras said:

Sorry Grimmas but that is an unbelievably wrong statement. I don’t have time to go into the details now but it highlights the biggest flaw of this project which is still coming down to “show me a list of great matches” or trying to quantify a case.

I understand your point, especially as it pertains to Lucha, but it's not practical to ask voters to develop deep understandings of hundreds of candidates. Even those who've watched a shit ton of wrestling over the last 20-30 years have to pick their spots. "Show me a list of matches" is an imperfect approach and should not be the endpoint of a discussion, but if you view it as a jumping-off point, it's still valuable for people who are coming fresh to a candidate. I appreciate OJ's approach to Lucha recs, which has always been to include the trios leading up to the title or apuestas match.

[Loss]

I'm not even saying "show me a list of matches". I think what I'm saying could even work as a biography of his career, stopping along the way to point out specific things worth seeing, but more important, just establishing a narrative and having that accessible to anyone who's going to vote. A greatest hits album falls short of that like it would for any candidate. Something more than, "He's always great, take our word for it", whatever form that entails.