The Fate of Ric Flair

[Bix]

There is no good argument for "Flair doesn't deserve to have a big run at the end because most fans think he is an old bastard that sucks", because the available evidence suggests otherwise (and yes I am aware that pops don't equate to drawing, but pops do generally equate to a level of interest, which is really the point).

But he *is* an old bastard who sucks.

The thing is, he doesn't *suck*. He's not RIC FLAIR anymore, just Ric Flair, and that can cloud one's judgment. His last few high profile singles matches (vs Carlito, Edge, and Finlay) were all very good, and I don't think anyone would argue that Carlito carried their match.

[tomk]

Really, the whole complaint that Flair's last run won't draw really only matters if it's pushed as a main-event, money drawing feud anyway. Flair at this point is a glorified Family Gundan member. No one was complaining about how Haruka Eigen's retirement tour didn't draw. It wasn't important. It wasn't expected to. They had main event matches to take care of that. Flair vs. whomever against Mania isn't going to drag down the buyrate when the focus of the show is on whatever combination of Cena/Batista/HHH/Michaels/Taker/Kennedy/Lashley/Khali/Edge/Orton/Rey they decide to go with in the main event.

1. From the observer, I got the impression that this was an angle that Austin wanted to be involved with. As a big Austin angle I imagine it would affect the buyrate.

 

2. This is the WWE not NOAH.

 

Flair has been a Family Gundan member for a while now.

 

Problem is WWF isn't NOAH and there isn't clear stylistic split between comedy work and main event style. To work "comedy undercarder gets serious" angle really requires that there be a difference.

 

Alot of main event WWE style is built around signature spots in similar ways to NOAH comedy matches ( I remember that I only started appreciating the construction and work in old man comedy matches after I started watching WWF main event wrestling).

 

I loved the work of Brisco/Patterson during the corporate stooge run. But really the only difference stylistically between what they were doing and what anyone else was doing was that no one sold for them. The difference isn't stylistic its rather a difference in selling. Brisco/Patterson fly around for serious workers. Serious worker has opponents bump around for him.

 

HBK is a comedy worker that people sell for. Ken Kennedy isn't anywhere near the talent of Kishin Kawabata. For long winded guy who was a traditional cage draw, HHH isn't as stiff as Rusher and his comedy mic work doesn't get the same volume of laughs. HHHH is far far more athtletic than NOAH era Rusher.

 

Not sure in the WWE how you do the "old man steps it up for final run" when stylistically not much difference between old match lay out and serious main event match lay out.

 

You can do the takes more punishment to put him away type deal. I liked Flair's silla in the Undertaker mania match so he could add that dive, and I liked his garbage match run but really doesn't feel like the right time to be having him eating barbed wire every night.

 

3.It's the WWE. When they did the recent brand switch, they traded Flair and Torrie Wilson to Smackdown as a pair so that Torrie Wilson could do the mic work for him. There are ways to do a nice final run angle for Flair but I have no reason to believe that WWE are capable of pulling it off at all.

[shoe]

I wouldn't be opposed to one Final run for Flair. Is Flair as good as he once was? No he's not, but he still has some stuff he can bring to the table. With the shit storm the WWE is going through right now, I think one last Flair run would be a nice feel good moment for the fans and for Flair.

[Loss]

I can really see both sides, although "How good is Ric Flair in 2007?" and "How over is Ric Flair in 2007?" are two completely different questions with different answers. They're being mixed together here.

 

Also, WWE doesn't really emphasize results enough for anyone to be damaged by doing a one-shot job to Ric Flair that will be forgotten within two weeks at the most. But also, WWE is going overboard on comedy angles at the moment because they feel it's their best shot at repairing their image, so I don't think they have any desire to do anything serious right now. Flair fighting for his career with every match would really be more of a serious storyline.

 

Austin is a hypocrite, as usual though. A young guy is left off the card at Wrestlemania and it's his own fault. He needs to take control of his character and demand to be featured. Ric Flair is left off the card at Wrestlemania and it's not his fault at all. Austin feels the company is stupid for not finding a place for him and pitches a storyline to help him out.

 

Ric Flair looks ridiculous to be wrestling as old as he is and is sort of Just Another Guy in booking now when he deserves to be more. Ric Flair also remains very popular with fans and even last year, when he was being pushed hard for a few weeks in an effort to get Edge and Cena over, boosted ratings.

 

Both sides are both right and wrong on some things.

 

But whether or not he's still got it is one argument. Whether or not people care if he has it or not is another.

[jdw]

The thing is, he doesn't *suck*. He's not RIC FLAIR anymore, just Ric Flair, and that can cloud one's judgment. His last few high profile singles matches (vs Carlito, Edge, and Finlay) were all very good, and I don't think anyone would argue that Carlito carried their match.

I don't look for Ric to be "RIC", and don't hold his current work to that standard. I guess it depends on how one defines "very good". His ladder match with Edge got a lot of praise, including Ric's preformance in it. I pretty much laughed through the whole thing for how bad it was, and specifically how awful Ric was.

 

John

[Cox]

I don't know, I just don't see the comparison to Rocky Balboa working at all. No, it wasn't a box office hit, but since when has wrestling been reflective of what has worked at the movie box office, or vice versa? Wrestling has always existed in its own little world, and within the wrestling fanbase, I sense there would be a great deal of interest in a final Flair run near the top, although I would think it would have to be made clear that this is truly the end and at the end he would have to retire for good.

[Bix]

The thing is, he doesn't *suck*. He's not RIC FLAIR anymore, just Ric Flair, and that can cloud one's judgment. His last few high profile singles matches (vs Carlito, Edge, and Finlay) were all very good, and I don't think anyone would argue that Carlito carried their match.

I don't look for Ric to be "RIC", and don't hold his current work to that standard. I guess it depends on how one defines "very good". His ladder match with Edge got a lot of praise, including Ric's preformance in it. I pretty much laughed through the whole thing for how bad it was, and specifically how awful Ric was.

Yeah...that's not the match I'm talking about.

[Guest STAN]

I can see Ric carrying some bags around, maybe going to the store to pick up some cigarettes or chewing tobacco for someone. Small little errands like that.

[Guest Some Guy]

I don't know, I just don't see the comparison to Rocky Balboa working at all. No, it wasn't a box office hit, but since when has wrestling been reflective of what has worked at the movie box office, or vice versa?

Since pretty much always in a general sense. Most action movies have a good vs evil plot and wrestling has always worked best when they've gone that route. Austin vs. McMahon, Hogan vs. Andre, etc...

 

I can certainly see the comparison to Rocky Balboa and Ric Flair in the sense of the old guy making one last run for the gold. But Flair is not really the guy to be cast in that spot. Flair is more Apollo Creed than he is Rocky. Rocky is a blue collar champion, Flair is a white collar guy. Austin would be a better fit in a Rocky type angle if he were to come back, although I don't think that Rocky ever beat Adrian.

 

Flair already had his "Rocky moment" in 2003 when he took HHH to the limit, lost, and got his moment in the sun. He just didn't leave.

[jdw]

Yeah...that's not the match I'm talking about.

I didn't say it was. It's just an example of a praised Flair match that I thought wasn't good, or wasn't a good Flair performance.

 

I can't think of a single Flair match since he returned where I thought he had a good performance other than by the standard of "he's an old guy who doesn't have to do much of anything in the ring to get praise".

 

But perhaps for one of the future sets, you can suggest to Loss a "Best of Ric In the WWE" list. Include this very good match with Edge.

 

 

John

[Bix]

When you grow up, you realize that intolerance of other people's divergent opinions, which was certainly a trait I had, is a bad vice.

[Guest BilJim2]

Stubbornness is a nasty bitch.

 

Besides that, I thought Flair's feud with Foley, albeit being one-sided verbally due to Foley, came off well, had fan interest, and possibly drew money. Matches were said to be good, too. Someone else please verify.

[Dylan Waco]

John, I have no problem at all with your dislike for Flairs performances or the mostly non-existant Flair Fan strawmen (not arguing they never existed, just that they tend to be a rare breed these days, at least in the places of wrestling fandom I venture into), but really there is alot of stuff here that I really think you aren't "getting" and to be honest I think alot of the stuff you criticize anti-Backlund guys for is relevent here.

 

I've seen you in the past talk about the myth of Backlunds overness waning as time went on. You say when you go back and watch the tapes for the most part this is a bullshit Meltzer talking point. It has been a long time since I have watched Backlund matches because frankly I"m not the biggest Bob fan, but I have no problem granting that you are probably right on this issue and the talking point is mostly wrong.

 

The thing is though, that even if you think Flair is a worthless old far who sucks, much like Backlund in the waning days of his title run he is still over with the crowd. I'm not talking about kinda over either. To quote you, "watch the tapes". Flair has consistently been one of the most over guys on the roster for virtually the whole time he's be in the company. At this point I would be hard pressed to come up with five faces on the roster who are more consistently over then him. Does this mean he should have the title? Not neccesarily, but when you combine it with the fact that half the fucking roster is injured or suspended, and the fact that they have three World titles to build around, only one of which is held by a fully seasoned pro wrestler and well..the idea doesn't really seem bad given the climate.

 

In talking about WON awards, workers, et. you often talk about consensus. The consensus here goes against you in arguing that Flair "sucks". I personally think Flair was one of the worst guys on the roster during the Evolution period, visibly calling spots, routinely fucking up his signature stuff, constantly looking lost, et. On the other hand I think he has varied from serviceable to good since about 05. Once again this seems to be a consensus view.

 

Of course consensus doesn't make it "right". It just makes it widespread and wrestling is a business designed to appeal to a wide audience.

 

The Rocky Balboa talking point is also interesting in that the whole concept starting essentially as an argument by writers to find some sort of analogy to push a concept they wanted to see for a while..Flair with one last title run. The guy I work with who was a young Mid-Atlantic devotee beforing moving to Flordia and going to shows at the Eddie Graham Sporting Complex, doesn't ever use shit like that as a defense for why he wants Flair to have one last run..he just thinks Flair deserves one last run. Deserves is a murky word in a discussion like this, but the reality is that there are alot of guys out there like Mitch and not a lot of guys making Hollywood comparisons to justify what they want to see.

[Guest *FH*]

Nice to see that iconoclasm is still the easiest and cheapest way to look "smart." Oh internet wrestling community, some things never change.

[jdw]

When you grow up, you realize that intolerance of other people's divergent opinions, which was certainly a trait I had, is a bad vice.

I suspect that like Dave, you still have that intolerance. And like Dave, it wouldn't be hard to find.

 

 

John

[jdw]

The thing is though, that even if you think Flair is a worthless old far who sucks

This is an example of where people read things that aren't there.

 

I do think Ric is an old fart, and that he does suck in the ring.

 

I don't think he's worthless. I certainly could find a use for him if I were the WWE. It's unlikely that it's a use Ric would like, because ego and insecurity need a certain role/push/stroking to be handled. But I certainly see worth... probably far more than the WWE themselves do, and possibly more than some people here to, and certainly more than Ric himself does because he remains focused on being in the ring and being pushed hard.

 

I think if the name "Flair" wasn't involved, and I was talking about some other old, shitty wrestler who was over, that people's defenses wouldn't get worked up. Nor would they try to toss stuff at me like "he's still over" and "the crowd is eating his stuff up". After all, I've been one of the people pointing out that while Hogan never really was that great of a worker, he was over and knew how to work in a fashion to make the fans eat his shit up.

 

You know... things like Rock-Hogan at Mania.

 

The rest of the post was similar reading stuff that isn't there.

 

I'd like Ric to retire. I enjoy poking him because I know it drives Flair Fan batty, and one needs to find wrestling entertainment where you can these days since so much of it is pretty putrid. But even if he retired, I could find uses for him for pretty much the rest of his life... and pray that he had a come to jesus moment of realizing the in-ring stuff should be put behind him, it's time to get his personal life and finances under control, and that he's have lifetime employment if he taks care of himself. That's how much I respect him and his place in the business, and value his ability to continue to contribute to it.

 

But I'm not the billionare, and Ric doesn't work for me. I'm still just a fan, and like the rest of the people one willing to state his opinion on things.

 

 

John

[jdw]

Nice to see that iconoclasm is still the easiest and cheapest way to look "smart." Oh internet wrestling community, some things never change.

Eghads... if your aiming this at mean, I was this way on wrestling before there ever was a internet wrestling community and it had nothing to do with looking "smart". Christ, I was the same way before I ever started watching wrestling, and thought Pete Rose was an old fart who sucked on the diamond in 1983 for the Phils.

 

It's one of the ironies of that backlash in the IWC. The same people who get worked up by criticism of favorites or negativity among posters will turn around and say Mussina is washed up with the Yanks, Shaq is fat and breaking down in the NBA, Carr should be fired at Michigan, Coach K is overrated at Duke, Teressa Earnhardt was an idiot for not giving Junior the Brinks Truck in NASCAR, etc. I've never gotten why what each and everyone of us do in so many other aspects of our lives (bitch and moan) is somehow "bad" in wrestling fandom.

 

An ex-girlfriend is a psycho bitch... but don't ever say something critical about Toyota's wrestling.

 

The boss is a cocksucker who doesn't know what he's doing... but don't be critical of Mr. McMahon or Paul E. because they're geniuses.

 

Dad's old, slowing down, not as good as he once was and needs to pass the family business onto the kids. But Ric...

 

 

 

John

[Bix]

When you grow up, you realize that intolerance of other people's divergent opinions, which was certainly a trait I had, is a bad vice.

I suspect that like Dave, you still have that intolerance. And like Dave, it wouldn't be hard to find.

 

 

John

 

I should've elaborated after the Dave quote.

 

But perhaps for one of the future sets, you can suggest to Loss a "Best of Ric In the WWE" list. Include this very good match with Edge.

At least when I take shots at people, I don't do it in a smarmy, passive-aggressive manner. I'd have expected something like that from Frank, but not from you. From you, I expect better.

[Guest BilJim2]

This thread is fun.

 

At least someone's admitting that they're being a troll here.

[Dylan Waco]

"But he *is* an old bastard who sucks" -jdw page three, this thread

 

My bad..the term you used was old bastard