The Fate of Ric Flair

[sek69]

I was reading the thread over at DVDVR and it occurred to me: Is there anything that exemplifies pro wrestling more than having arguably the greatest in-ring performer of all time go from getting one last hurrah to being pushed aside to the point of him apparently quitting out of frustration. Not to mention having HHH, who's supposed to be the biggest Flair mark ever, play a role by saying having Flair go over people at his age would be a "credibility issue". As if that was the biggest thing to strain the company credibility right now. I mean, it's not like wrestling has the advantage of being worked so that they can script almost anything to plausible degree.

 

I mean, if it was a Goldberg-like push then I'd kind of agree with HHH, but I think it's not that much of a stretch to think a 30 year vet and multiple time World Champ might just be able to outfox the youngin's. It's almost like Hunter has something against older wrestlers, as one of the reasons he wanted his match with Booker to be more one sided was because he felt the Booker/Lawler match on RAW was too even.

 

What's so wrong about allowing Flair to go out on top? Just once it would be nice to see someone ride off in the sunset on a positive note instead of as a loser like most guys seem to.

[smkelly]

The problem is, and always will be: Ric Flair is a 58 year old man.

 

I'm a huge Ric Flair fan. But, I'm not a fan of watching a 58 year old man beating men younger than him. It's just not good business.

[sek69]

The problem is, and always will be: Ric Flair is a 58 year old man.

 

I'm a huge Ric Flair fan. But, I'm not a fan of watching a 58 year old man beating men younger than him. It's just not good business.

There's ways it can be done. Especially when said 58 year old is pushed as a master of cheating. It can be good business if WWE puts its mind to it, but it's apparent that they don't want to.

 

The "old guy going back for one last chance" is one of the best stories in all of sports. Look at Randy Couture in MMA. He's not as old as Flair of course, but he also competes in a legitimate sport as well.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

I'm kind of ambivalent towards this whole Flair situation. Sure, he's given a lot to the wrestling business. But he's also made a hell of a lot of money over the years, so it's not like he's gained nothing from wrestling. I can understand how he feels like he's been treated poorly, but to be fair, how many other 58-year-olds are given the opportunity live out their "I'm not that old, am I?" fantasies on a national stage for a six-figure salary despite clearly diminished performance skills? Of course, to say WWE is doing him a favor might be a bit of a stretch considering the damage he continues to do to his horribly-abused body with every match. But WWE doesn't really have an obligation to its employees to put them over on TV. Their obligations are to make money, entertain their fans, and do their best to keep their employees safe from injury (they don't do that last one too well). But I'm sure the fans would go for a big Flair retirement match at Wrestlemania, so why not? I don't really care either way whether he ever comes back.

[smkelly]

Eh. You can't really compare Randy Couture and Ric Flair. Couture is a master of his craft, a former soldier, and at age 44 has a body that'd make a man 20 years his junior blush. Flair on the other hand, is nearing sixty, with no military experience, and has had some serious injuries throughout his career. As long as they kept it to Flair having to cheat like a motherfucker to win, then it'd be okay. Having Flair win cleanly against anyone under the age of 58 would be bad business, pure and simple.

 

Everyone and their mother knows that wrestling is fake, no need to pound that message home harder with a old man beating younger men.

[sek69]

So, what, if Flair was a former military dude it would make pushing him okay?

 

It's pro mother-effing wrestling, which is practically defined by things happening within its confines that wouldn't/couldn't happen outside of it.

 

Having Flair be the crafty old man who uses his experience and cheating acumen to pull one over on the young whippersnappers who felt they would just run over this old dude would be pretty awesome. Plus, previous times they teased giving Flair a push the crowds seemed to be into it, but WWE always has that hang up over not giving the crowd what they want if they weren't told by the company to want it first.

[Guest KCook]

Fuck Ric Flair. He's been wrestling longer than I've been alive and he still doesn't know wrestling is fake.

 

You can't compare him to Randy Couture, and not only because Couture is the baddest motherfucker alive and Flair is a saggy old cokehead who almost dies every time he wrestles a match. He's 58! He had his Couture push against Vader 15 years ago, back when he was the age Couture is now, and it was great. Doing the same thing today would just be sad.

[S.L.L.]

Everyone and their mother knows that wrestling is fake, no need to pound that message home harder with a old man beating younger men.

You sure about that one?

[sek69]

Cokehead? I thought Flair had a drinking problem. They aren't mutually exclusive I guess.

 

By the way, I'm not suggesting he get a Jesus Push and a yearlong title run, I just thought his status would merit him a little more respect on the way out than what the average fast food worker gets.

[smkelly]

So, what, if Flair was a former military dude it would make pushing him okay?

Actually, yes. I know plenty of 1st Sgt and SgtMjr that are around that age that regularly defeat men 20-30 years younger then them in martial arts and black out/tap out tournaments.

 

Being in the military has the reputation of being a tough ass SOB.

 

Fuck Ric Flair. He's been wrestling longer than I've been alive and he still doesn't know wrestling is fake.

 

You can't compare him to Randy Couture, and not only because Couture is the baddest motherfucker alive and Flair is a saggy old cokehead who almost dies every time he wrestles a match. He's 58! He had his Couture push against Vader 15 years ago, back when he was the age Couture is now, and it was great. Doing the same thing today would just be sad.

Exactly. Flair, along with Hogan and Savage, and Nash, and Sting, and DDP are among the reasons why WCW died. Key word there, among.

 

Probably for his age yes, but overall, no. Fedor firmly holds unto that title.

 

Everyone and their mother knows that wrestling is fake, no need to pound that message home harder with a old man beating younger men.

You sure about that one?

 

That's a loaded question.

 

Cokehead? I thought Flair had a drinking problem. They aren't mutually exclusive I guess.

 

By the way, I'm not suggesting he get a Jesus Push and a yearlong title run, I just thought his status would merit him a little more respect on the way out than what the average fast food worker gets.

Hanging with Harley Race and Dusty Rhodes in the 80's would equal massive amounts of liquor and coke.

 

 

 

One of the major reasons I personally want Flair to retire is this: He's old. It's hard to watch him perform anymore. I'm worried about him dying in the center of the ring. I cringed when I watched his TLC match.

[sek69]

No one is saying Flair has to be in a TLC match, what's wrong with at least one more WM payday before he hangs it up? Doesn't 30+ in the biz warrant that much at least?

 

I think what bothers me the most is how HHH threw his alleged idol under the bus. I mean, obviously you can argue if he's right or not, but you'd think he'd at least try to work something out for the guy rather than flat out denying his program like that.

 

 

*edit* to clarify, I mean it bothers me in a "what does anyone have to lose by it" sense. It's just striking me as petty they won't let the guy have his moment but we had to endure the Mick Foley Retirement Tour.

[smkelly]

I know what you're saying. I wasn't meaning he'd be in TLC matches, just, it's painfully obvious that he's in a lot of pain taking his routine bumps. A man of his age, let alone history of back/neck problems, shouldn't be taking bumps of any kind of the top rope, or back body drops, etc.

 

His moveset alone is proof of his need to retire. I cannot remember the last time he actually suplexed someone outright. All he does now is throw punches, chop block, gouge the eys, low blow, and use the figure four.

 

I agree that the situation with Flair could, and should have been handled better. They should have had Flair get his last title run a few years ago. Like his match against HHH in May of 2003 (might be 2002). He was clearly over, could still do some normal things in the ring without looking out of place, and could actually still perform without his death scream.

 

On the other hand, I don't particularly blame Triple H. It's a business. He's only protecting himself. Flair used to do the same thing when he had the stroke like HHH does. Flair did it to Austin.

[kjh]

On the other hand, I don't particularly blame Triple H. It's a business. He's only protecting himself. Flair used to do the same thing when he had the stroke like HHH does. Flair did it to Austin.

Shouldn't Triple H be past the point where he has to protect himself given he's the son-in-law of the boss, especially from someone who's so old? This isn't about protecting himself, it's about Triple H being a mark for himself and using his power to subtly tarnish the legend of anyone who's seen as a bigger star than him. I've said this before, but if Triple H was smart he'd offer to put Ric Flair over in his retirement match at WrestleMania next year because it would build up even more good will and respect with the smarks than he's got already and thus he could dine off that job for years and years.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

On the other hand, I don't particularly blame Triple H. It's a business. He's only protecting himself. Flair used to do the same thing when he had the stroke like HHH does. Flair did it to Austin.

Shouldn't Triple H be past the point where he has to protect himself given he's the son-in-law of the boss, especially from someone who's so old? This isn't about protecting himself, it's about Triple H being a mark for himself and using his power to subtly tarnish the legend of anyone who's seen as a bigger star than him. I've said this before, but if Triple H was smart he'd offer to put Ric Flair over in his retirement match at WrestleMania next year because it would build up even more good will and respect with the smarks than he's got already and thus he could dine off that job for years and years.

 

1) Pleasing smarks is not a noble goal and it's not something any wrestler should aspire to, let alone one as successful as HHH.

 

2) Nothing will ever stop smarks from bitching about HHH. Nothing will ever stop smarks from bitching about anything.

[Tim Evans]

In this "post benoit wrestling world"(love that phrase), Shouldn't Flair worry about "going crazy with his brain" and just stay retired? He doesn't need a Mania farewell match this year.

 

And everyone on the internet bitches about everything, not just smarks or marks on fark.

[kjh]

1) Pleasing smarks is not a noble goal and it's not something any wrestler should aspire to, let alone one as successful as HHH.

I wasn't saying it was a noble goal. Putting over Flair in his retirement match is just something he could do to deflect the heat he'll inevitably get both online and from wrestlers behind the scenes when the fans get tired of his super push. Also a retiring Flair would be the hottest opponent he could go against at WrestleMania, with the possible exception of a still loathed Cena hogging the World title for another six months.

[S.L.L.]

Everyone and their mother knows that wrestling is fake, no need to pound that message home harder with a old man beating younger men.

You sure about that one?

 

That's a loaded question.

Huh?

 

Many questions, also known as complex question, presupposition, loaded question, "trick question", or plurium interrogationum (Latin, "of many questions"), is an informal fallacy. It is committed when someone asks a question that presupposes something that has not been proven or accepted by all the people involved. This fallacy is often used rhetorically, so that the question limits direct replies to those that serve the questioner's agenda. An example of this is the question "Are you still beating your wife?" Whether the respondent answers yes or no, he will admit to having a wife, and having beaten her at some time in the past. Thus, these facts are presupposed by the question, and if it has not been agreed upon by the speakers before, the question is improper, and the fallacy of many questions has been committed.

What does my question presuppose that we do not agree on going into it? We seem to agree that wrestling is fake. You are on record in this thread saying what I quoted. Where is it loaded?

 

By definition, a loaded question would require me asking you something based on an assumption I've made that isn't proven, or that you don't accept as true. Like, "Why are you afraid to answer my question?".

[Guest *FH*]

Has anyone considered that Flair is quitting because, with a renewed Wellness Policy, he can no longer perform? As bad as his body looks, I'd be willing to bet it's much, much worse without a little "Sports Entertainment" being injected/swallowed regularly.

[smkelly]

I was under the impression you were trying to say that wrestling should be advertised as fake with all of the deaths in and out of wrestling. A simple misunderstanding.

[S.L.L.]

Has anyone considered that Flair is quitting because, with a renewed Wellness Policy, he can no longer perform? As bad as his body looks, I'd be willing to bet it's much, much worse without a little "Sports Entertainment" being injected/swallowed regularly.

I get the sense there are a lot of factors going into this, and that's probably a big one.

 

Ultimately, I think it's just a general sense that the jig is up.

[Tim Evans]

Has anyone considered that Flair is quitting because, with a renewed Wellness Policy, he can no longer perform? As bad as his body looks, I'd be willing to bet it's much, much worse without a little "Sports Entertainment" being injected/swallowed regularly.

Is there still no test for HGH? As Long as there's no test and no one snitches, I'm sure Flair would be fine. But you never know in the "post benoit wrestling world".

[Loss]

I wish Flair's career could end on a high note. He deserves it and his fans deserve it. But Flair is 100% to blame for that not happening. Not saving his money, not stepping aside when he was obviously no longer capable of delivering and embarrassing himself has made him much less valuable than he should be, and it's all his fault. Flair should be a name like Hulk Hogan that fans remember and enjoy, but remains on the fringes of the business and does big matches every few years or so with the right opponents. Instead, Flair is an opening match guy who everyone in the company has pinned.

 

I love Ric Flair, but the talk of a proper farewell for him is nearly two decades old. When WM was being rumored to be his last appearance, I thought there may be some potential there, but KCook made the best point of the thread -- Flair had his big farewell push against Vader in 1993, and then he never left.

[Al]

Bill Buckner

Dusty Baker

Phil Garner

Vida Blue

Mike Schmidt

Al Hrabosky

 

Imagine those baseball players coming back to the Majors. Dusty Baker was criticized as a Cubs manager for playing veterans too much. Can you think of the outrage of he put himself back in the outfield? Mike Schmidt, a Hall of Fame player, hit .203 18 years ago before he retired. They're all the same age as Ric Flair.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Last I checked, wrestling wasn't a real sport. That doesn't mean Flair should get a last big run. But if there was a situation in which a 58-year-old guy getting a big push was the best option, well, you can't put your foot down and say "No, doesn't matter, he's too old". Because it's wrestling.

[jdw]

I love how much the "Rocky Flair" concept has taken traction and how folks think it's a natural that Flair get a monster push on the way out, even towards one of the World Titles.

 

Do these people even realize the Rocky Balboa *wasn't* that big of a hit? $70M is chump change at the box office. Jackass 2 made more money. Eragon was thought to be a bomb, and it made more money and had a bigger opening. The Pink Panther was a bomb, and it made more money.

 

Rocky Balboa was only a "hit" relative to the cost of making it, since Stallone went bare bones to make it. Other than that... it was only a modest deal to those of us like Dave who grew up in the 70s and were caught up in the original. Hell, considering how ticket prices have gone, it's not like a that many *more* people saw Rocky Balboa than saw Rocky V... which was a big bomb.

 

I just don't get Flair Fan continuing to be delusional to the point they want the old fart to go out with a world title level push.

 

John