2021 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame

[ragemaster]

9 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

All right, then. I can't understand Dave's mentality at all. In fact,  I do not understand why Okada was a slam dunk when business in Japan is rubbish compared to what it used to be. Okada was on top of a rubbish heap? Truly worthy. 

Obviously, some folks voted for Owen. Can anyone explain why? 

I thought Business was turned around by Tanahashi, but Okada built on it and it remained strong with him on top. The last two years don't count as business has been destroyed by covid and the government mandates on crowd size.

[ohtani's jacket]

1 hour ago, ragemaster said:

I thought Business was turned around by Tanahashi, but Okada built on it and it remained strong with him on top. The last two years don't count as business has been destroyed by covid and the government mandates on crowd size.

Business is mediocre compared to the 90s, and the cultural impact of wrestling is nonexistent compared to the 80s. How did he get in with over 90%? 

[ohtani's jacket]

9 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

Great Kojika has been wrestling for nearly 60 years and has run BJPW for nearly 30. Does that make him HOF-worthy?

Stick him on the  ballot. He sounds worthier than some of the names already on there. 

[sek69]

Okada has been one of the greatest pro wresters ever to grace the earth. It would be really weird for him to get less than 90% and I was wondering if he might get Kobashi level votes. I would say the biggest knock on New Japan was the lack of people built up around him and just expecting Okada to do all the heavy lifting himself. 

[ragemaster]

28 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Business is mediocre compared to the 90s, and the cultural impact of wrestling is nonexistent compared to the 80s. How did he get in with over 90%? 

But much better than the 00's, NJPW was doing the best it's done in decades until covid hit. 

[ethantyler]

9 hours ago, Reel said:

Owen is in because he ran a territory people know about and have seen and we're getting to a point where that is enough for a good chunk of people. How many major territory promoters aren't in at this point? 

Portland wasn't a major territory. In terms of major territory promoters who aren't it but who sure as hell should be now with the Owen precedent: Lou Daro from LA 1924-1939 (this is pre-1950, so a Dave call to auto induct), Al Haft from Columbus, Ohio 1919-1965, Roy Welch 1936-1974 (on the ballot next year), and Morris Sigel from Texas 1929-1966 (also on the ballot, did better this year with 39%). If you look at any of these 4 guys' numbers and compare them to Don Owens, no debate to be had. All should be inducted as soon as possible.

[ohtani's jacket]

10 minutes ago, ragemaster said:

But much better than the 00's, NJPW was doing the best it's done in decades until covid hit. 

This is true, but 90% of the vote? That can only be because of his matches, and the fact that Dave is behind him. The same thing happened with Mistico, who fell one vote short. 

[Reel]

I meant major more in terms of the popular view of the territories, not as an identifier of business or size, like the map in a WWE documentary is divided into x number of territories, Portland would be on there. 

[ethantyler]

4 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

This is true, but 90% of the vote? That can only be because of his matches, and the fact that Dave is behind him. The same thing happened with Mistico, who fell one vote short. 

??? Dave isn't behind Mistico. He flat out said he wouldn't vote for him and doesn't see him as a HOFer on the latest WOR.

[Loss]

I realize he has a broader case than just being a promoter (although even a lot of that feels built on rep and the success of Bret), but is Don Owen's case as a promoter noticeably worse than that of Stu Hart, who was part of the original class?

[ohtani's jacket]

11 minutes ago, ethantyler said:

??? Dave isn't behind Mistico. He flat out said he wouldn't vote for him and doesn't see him as a HOFer on the latest WOR.

I'll take that back then. As far as I recall, the last time Dave was interested in Mexico was when Mistico had his original run in CMLL. 

[sek69]

14 minutes ago, ethantyler said:

??? Dave isn't behind Mistico. He flat out said he wouldn't vote for him and doesn't see him as a HOFer on the latest WOR.

Yeah and also now that the Brazos are in,  he basically said he felt that Mistico is probably a shoo-in next year just because he's the highest profile name not in. 

[sek69]

I don't know offhand who gets added next year, but there's really no names on the Mexico list I can see getting 60% other than him unless someone in the Wrestleverse decides to make the Dinamitas their pet project (which hey, I'd be down with if someone does). 

[ohtani's jacket]

9 hours ago, Matt D said:

Seen and love. 79-81 Portland TV is probably the best territorial TV from an overall (matches + ongoing stories/promos) perspective we have in any sort of week to week basis with some indication that such quality would track back a number of years. And he managed to give away high enough quality product to draw sponsors while still running the same building weekly.

Not sure how much credit he gets for that vs bookers or talent mind you. 

Imagine if we had footage from the 50s, 60s and 70s? When most people think about Portland, they think of Buddy Rose, but there were plenty of other great runs as well. It's time to champion the small-to-mid market, regional successes in wrestling. Enough of this papered baseball stadium attendance figure crap. Don Owen did more for the Northwest and the Portland community than Okada has ever done for Japan. Go the little guy.

[Loss]

I agree that regional success is downplayed by HOF voters, in part because many of them weren't alive at a time when regional wrestling mattered.

[sek69]

Also isn't the entirety of Portland footage available limited to the tapes Buddy kept that got transferred to DVD years ago? Or did I miss another source appearing?

[ethantyler]

32 minutes ago, Loss said:

I realize he has a broader case than just being a promoter (although even a lot of that feels built on rep and the success of Bret), but is Don Owen's case as a promoter noticeably worse than that of Stu Hart, who was part of the original class?

"Noticeably worse" is debatable, but Stu did do 7-8,000 in both Calgary & Edmonton through the 50s-70s, 4-5,500 in Saskatoon, up to 6,000 in Regina. His peak was probably the late 50s when he had access to Lou Thesz, Gene Kiniski, and lots of dates with NWA champ Dick Hutton (one of the few territories Hutton drew well in). Don Owen hit those numbers too but less consistently and in bigger towns (making them less impressive).

Stu is the better promoter. Only noticeable if you dig deep into the numbers. He would be in a similar position to Don Owen re HOF candidacy had it not been for the training resume. He has 5 HOFers under his belt and a bunch of other good workers too. 

[cad]

18 minutes ago, sek69 said:

I don't know offhand who gets added next year, but there's really no names on the Mexico list I can see getting 60% other than him unless someone in the Wrestleverse decides to make the Dinamitas their pet project (which hey, I'd be down with if someone does). 

I don't understand why they're together. Cien Caras was more impressive as a draw by himself than with his brothers.

[HPJoker]

22 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Business is mediocre compared to the 90s, and the cultural impact of wrestling is nonexistent compared to the 80s. How did he get in with over 90%?  

He might be the best wrestler to ever live and it's not his fault that New Japan doesn't have prime time TV anymore. In fact, the business growth that NJPW has seen while he's been on top without prominent TV is a testament to how big of a star he is. The bar for enshrinement in any hall of fame isn't to clear the best of all-time (which Okada has a claim to being as a wrestler.) Very, very few people would get in. Hogan or Inoki aren't the bar for this HOF in the same way Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron aren't the bar for the baseball HOF.

[El McKell]

On 1/15/2022 at 11:16 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

Business is mediocre compared to the 90s, and the cultural impact of wrestling is nonexistent compared to the 80s. How did he get in with over 90%? 

NJPW had record revenue in 2019. Barely topping the 90s peak, and being at pretty much that same level in 2017 & 2018 too.

[sek69]

I would argue Okada jumped business to as much of a peak you could reasonably expect considering their TV situation is less than idea. They were on quite the roll before COVID kneecapped them, and you can't blame that on him either. 

[Jesse Ewiak]

Yeah, everything I've read as far as business goes is that Tanahashi basically stabilized NJPW business from the depths of the Inokism era, but Okada (along w/ the Bushiroad purchase) helped make them as financially successful as a wrestling company can be in 21st century Japan. After all, Omega left, and business didn't really drop at all in Japan. 

[ohtani's jacket]

17 hours ago, El McKell said:

NJPW had record revenue in 2019. Barely topping the 90s peak, and being at pretty much that same level in 2017 & 2018 too.

I have a hard time believing that is true, but I'll take their word for it and dial back the rhetoric. 

[Noah's_Savior]

I think it's unfair to flatly compare the Japanese wrestling business from the 00s and 2010s to the 90s and 80s. The Japanese economy beginning to stagnate in the early 90s, the birth and rise of modern J-Pop the innovation of MMA, are just a few examples that had an impact on the amount of pop cultural space got left for pro wrestling in Japan after the new millennia. Ichiro Suzuki and more Japanese baseball players finding success and fame in the MLB, and the whole baseball world, may have also taken away space in the sporting discourse for wrestlers. 

On 1/15/2022 at 5:16 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

Business is mediocre compared to the 90s, and the cultural impact of wrestling is nonexistent compared to the 80s. How did he get in with over 90%? 

Under Bushiroad, Tanahashi and especially Okada being the top guys saw NJPW increase business, fanbase, and their pop cultural footprint, more than any other Japanese company that I know of during the period of the 2010s that was only stopped by an international pandemic.  Tanahashi has been featured in movies and dramas, him and Okada have featured on regular television programs I'm not he biggest Okada fan but it shouldn't be denied his impact on NJPW's rise to becoming the top promotion in Japan and a major player in the international wrestling scene. It's not his, Tanahashi, or anyone else's fault that real life in Japan has fallen from the economic fairytale that was the early to mid 1980s with the residuals of that economy hitting ordinary people's pockets before corporations.

[ohtani's jacket]

I've been in Japan throughout the period we're talking about. I'm not glued to the TV every night, I'll admit, but I still find it hard to see the footprint you're talking about. I'm sure you can find it if you look for it, but it isn't an inescapable presence in daily life. Apparently, Bushiroad took New Japan out of insolvency and is generating more revenue than the late 90s, though where these revenue streams come from, I'm not sure, as live attendance still isn't as high as it was in the 90s. Clearly the management has been good, and it was wrong of me to say that business is mediocre. I still think it's crazy that he got close to a unanimous vote, but I guess the success that New Japan has had in the 2010s is important to voters.