Chris Jericho vs. CM Punk

[MLB]

With all of the recent buzz of CM Punk's return and the heat Jericho seems to get on PWO, I thought I'd ask this one. Somebody on here says Punk is a bigger star, which I am not totally convinced is a fact, so I started a poll.

[DMJ]

To me, its all in the specifics of the question being asked.

Who is a bigger star? I think Jericho is historically. That doesn't necessarily mean that in 2023, he's a bigger draw, though. Hulk Hogan is, historically, one of the top 3 biggest stars of the past 40 years but I don't think his appearances on RAW or anything are going to move the needle more than, say, Roman Reigns or Cody Rhodes. Jericho was a featured upper midcard/main event talent in the WWE from the late 90s on, main evented a WrestleMania at a time when the WWE was still doing monster ratings , had a high-profile feud with Mickey Rourke, did Dancing with the Stars, and also has found some success as a musician, author, and podcaster (though all of those ventures have been based on his wrestling success). I think it really comes down to the level of popularity wrestling had in the 90s/early 00s compared to what it is today. I have an older cousin who hasn't watched wrestling since the Attitude Era and he probably could still tell you who Chris Jericho is, while I'm not sure they'd be able to pick CM Punk or Bryan Danielson or Seth Rollins or Jon Moxley out of a line-up. In other words, I think if you asked 100 people aged 8 to 80 who identified as "past or present wrestling fans," 100% would know Hulk Hogan, less would know Chris Jericho, and the least would know CM Punk. 

But who's better is a different question.

To me, that question is a matter of taste/personal preference, though I'd love to hear someone try to argue it objectively. To me, if I were tasked to watch one performer for 10 hours straight, I'd go with Punk. Granted, I've also seen probably 10 times as many Jericho matches as I have CM Punk matches. That's bound to happen if you, like me, have basically been watching Chris Jericho on national TV since WCW. Aside from the years he took off, this is a guy who probably averaged 40+ televised matches a year for the past 25 years. Punk, on the other hand, has an "aura" to me that has always set him apart, or at least has always set him apart to me since I first saw via ROH DVDs in the mid-00s. Once he got to the WWE, that aura stuck with him. I don't think Jericho has ever had a run or storyline or angle that felt as hot as CM Punk's Pipebomb/Money in the Bank 2011 storyline (maybe his closest being the feud with HBK in 2008?). In AEW, Jericho has had good segments and good matches, but Punk's appearances and matches tended to be "must see" for me. I don't think I've ever fast-forwarded through a CM Punk match or appearance. 

Interestingly, looking at my 100 Wrestlers list for many moons ago, I had Jericho ranked #23 and CM Punk at #30. (Don't @ me, as I explained back then, my list was based on my admittedly skewed and limited viewing of mostly just WCW and WWE at the time, with a relatively small amount of ECW/TNA/modern US indies thrown in). 

[Reel]

I think a lot of Jericho's 'greatness' is a) part of a very calculated effort on Jericho's part to curate that image by talking about his career all the time, to everyone who will listen and b) much more based on longevity, presentation, and impact than it is based on the 'footage.'

I'm probably going to end up with Punk somewhere on my ballot, and am not even really considering Jericho at this point.  

[Matt D]

7 minutes ago, Reel said:

 

I think a lot of Jericho's 'greatness' is a) part of a very calculated effort on Jericho's part to curate that image by talking about his career all the time, to everyone who will listen and b) much more based on longevity, presentation, and impact than it is based on the 'footage.'

 

Working!

 

[MLB]

Really enjoyed your write up, @DMJ

I'll elaborate here on why I went with Jericho because it is a close call. I agree Jericho is more famous but at their most over, I'd grant Punk's peak was higher.  The Pipebomb is more memorable than any promo Jericho ever did, although Jericho's WWF debut with The Rock on the mic ranks up there in famous moments. And yeah, SES > JAS.  Punk has a better moveset. Also as Cena rivals, Punk got a lot more out of JC and their feud. Jericho is much more of a comedy wrestler.

They are both similar in how they elevated themselves despite their critics in the back. Both had their issues with Hunter. It is a bit like comparing Shawn to Bret.

It is Jericho's longevity and durability that I think gives him the better career overall. Jericho never got injured, but with Punk it seems constant. I watched a shoot with Perry Saturn (former Marine) and he said Jericho was the toughest wrestler he faced, I believe it. That counts in my book. Jericho has been around longer, to a lot more places (Mexico/SMW/WAR/ECW) than Punk, and in a lot more great matches. Jericho has reinvented himself and adapted through a lot of different gimmicks and catchphrases whereas Punk has been the same persona talking about ice cream bars with a long break in between. I think you can see Jericho's influence (Kenny Omega, "BAY BAY" and aspects of MJF's character) on today's wrestling. And "Judas" is more over than "Cult of Personality" as an entrance. 

[concrete1992]

I answered the question based on being in the GWE part of the forum. And that's a far easier question I think with it being CM Punk.

Think they both have the fun addition where the AEW runs probably helped their perception with rounding out some of their later period careers.

[KawadaSmile]

I think Jericho's "reinventions" are grossly overstated. In fact, Punk being a constant for nearly 20 years and never coming off as hokey or stale is a bigger testament to how "real" he feels. After all, the straight edge condescending asshole who has some charm to him is essentially his real-life persona. 

In terms of making me engaged to a program or feud, Punk wins without a question, even prior to his AEW debut. Jericho had something interesting going with the feud against MJF, but ever since the never ending Kingston feud, he has become a channel changer. 

Punk might be a bigger UFC draw than Jericho is a professional wrestling draw, too.

[Dav'oh]

People often talk of highs and lows and depth, but I'm voting here for Jericho on the breadth of his career. It's quite remarkable.

[MLB]

2 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

I think Jericho's "reinventions" are grossly overstated. In fact, Punk being a constant for nearly 20 years and never coming off as hokey or stale is a bigger testament to how "real" he feels. After all, the straight edge condescending asshole who has some charm to him is essentially his real-life persona. 

In terms of making me engaged to a program or feud, Punk wins without a question, even prior to his AEW debut. Jericho had something interesting going with the feud against MJF, but ever since the never ending Kingston feud, he has become a channel changer. 

Punk might be a bigger UFC draw than Jericho is a professional wrestling draw, too.

I'll concede that maybe Jericho's reinventions are overstated in my case, but in 2008 he purged the entire Spinal Tap gimmick and became a dramatically different performer as the top heel on the brand. Completely different look and style.

I thought Punk's UFC career was a disaster, not sure how he was considered a draw. Remember Dana's reaction after the Jackson fight?  Punk still had another fight on his UFC deal and they told him to scram. If watching Punk awkwardly get his ass kicked was a draw they would've had him honor the third fight on his contract. And surprise, surprise...Punk got hurt during training. Took almost two years between fights. We don't know what kind of numbers Jericho would do in UFC.

[MLB]

I mean, wow. 15 to 3 currently, I can't believe how lopsided this poll turned out. I do think there is some recency bias in play here. Bear in mind, I like Punk.

Yeah, Punk got more out of Cena but Jericho had better chemistry with The Rock. Jericho's WCW Cruiserweight run was epic and still talked about today (feuds with Juvi, Rey Jr, Malenko). Chris elevated a mid-card division with guys who weren't strong promos (and foreign) and got them over. Who has Punk ever gotten over? (I'll give him MJF). Punk dropped the ROH title in a 4-way and nobody remembers his final ROH match with Cabana, if anything he ruined Ryback's career. "I'm leaving with the title" was done by RVD years prior to Punk ripping it off. People still talk about Jericho's beef with Goldberg. Jericho didn't get a Brock or Taker PPV match which are two of Punk's greatest hits. Jericho never had Heyman as a mouthpiece or any manager at all. Jericho was the first in WWE with a "viral marketing campaign" with various clues and codes that WWE is still using today with Wyatt. Jericho came up with the Money in the Bank concept that's been around for almost 20 years.

[Matt D]

You didn't give us criteria. 

The board is almost always going to gravitate towards "in-ring output based on footage."

[Reel]

On 4/18/2023 at 10:14 AM, concrete1992 said:

I answered the question based on being in the GWE part of the forum. And that's a far easier question I think with it being CM Punk.

It’s like concrete said here, we’re in the GWE section, a project entirely based on the ‘footage’ and through that lens, Punk is going to be heavily favored, but if this was in a thread for WONHOF I would expect entirely different results. 
 

[KawadaSmile]

11 hours ago, MLB said:

I'll concede that maybe Jericho's reinventions are overstated in my case, but in 2008 he purged the entire Spinal Tap gimmick and became a dramatically different performer as the top heel on the brand. Completely different look and style.

I thought Punk's UFC career was a disaster, not sure how he was considered a draw. Remember Dana's reaction after the Jackson fight?  Punk still had another fight on his UFC deal and they told him to scram. If watching Punk awkwardly get his ass kicked was a draw they would've had him honor the third fight on his contract. And surprise, surprise...Punk got hurt during training. Took almost two years between fights. We don't know what kind of numbers Jericho would do in UFC.

Yeah, that 2008 run he's had was absolutely great. The match he had against Rey at The Bash was some really, really top tier stuff. Personally, what really hurts Jericho to me is this JAS run. Just endless feuds that don't really do much to either party, but specially to his opponent. He attaches himself to whatever wrestlers is on a hot streak, and they are massively cooled down afterward.

 

Punk was actually a draw in his first fight, actually. Sure he was woefully underprepared, but that actually weak card did better numbers than others with bigger MMA names. There is a video from Napoleon Blownapart about Punk's MMA career which, while now outdated, as it stopped once he made his return, paints a decent pictura about why he was a big deal back then, and why his UFC tenure made some waves.

 

 

On a more joking note, Jericho influencing the likes of Bray Wyatt should count against him!

[Embrodak]

I think Jericho at his peak was a much better, smoother, more athletic worker than Punk at his best, without question. Cornette described young Jericho as being like a gazelle, and that’s accurate. Even at his best, Punk has always been sloppy and awkward, because he’s an athlete by necessity, not by nature.

Punk is a better psychologist and has a much stronger persona, as shown by the fact that his “reinvention” is basically just him modulating various characteristics that are present at all times in every incarnation. He made it look somewhat credible-ish that he was fighting pre-Beast Brock despite having one of the worst physiques in wrestling; he had one of the better Streak matches against Undertaker; he was one of Cena’s best opponents; he had the best feud in AEW history, and the matches did deliver, even if they weren’t top-shelf. He hasn’t needed gratuitous props like jackets or The List or fireballs, hasn’t needed to dress in goofy outfits, hasn’t needed a thousand nicknames, hasn’t needed clout vampirism, and hasn’t claimed to have been abducted by aliens to throw his wife off the scent of obvious infidelity.

Jericho’s promos haven’t aged as well, either. Yeah, Punk has an all-time cringe line with “Phil Brooks talking to Paul Levesque”, but Jericho’s got way more low-level cringe, on the whole.

[EnviousStupid]

I just think Punk has far greater highs, consistency, variety, adaptability, match layout, character work, rivalries, etc. over his career. Even in 2009, when Jericho had the big rivalry with Mysterio - arguably the BITW that year - Punk was getting quality stuff out of Jeff Hardy and The Undertaker. Then he went on to lead one of the best stables of that era and have a great feud with Mysterio the following year.

[Mr JMML]

Punk's career just can't be compared to Jericho's. Chris Jericho has been in the business for around 30 years or so but his in-ring skills or charisma isn't as good as Punk's.

CM Punk has had a better career with a lot of modern classics since 2002 like his trilogy vs Samoa Joe in 2004, the first Summer of Punk 2005 or his WWE run that had two matches of the year vs John Cena 2011 and vs Brock Lesnar 2013. 

vs Samoa Joe I, II and III: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV18b411M7CU/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click 

The Summer of Punk: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV17b411K7sM/?spm_id_from=333.999.0.0 

vs John Cena: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1he4y1F7wz/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click 

vs Brock Lesnar: https://www.facebook.com/WWEBrasil/videos/wwe-full-match-cm-punk-vs-brock-lesnar-no-disqualification-match-summerslam-2013/979400939522409/ 

He has been more consistent too.

[justinsdrown]

Jericho. Shocked by the poll. Punk has had a few high peaks. But he gets in his own way when it comes to legacy. Jericho is constantly evolving. He’s smoother, has better ring psychology. Oh, and unlike Punk, managed to navigate his way through the WWE political machine without constantly having public melt downs.

[MLB]

For all the consistency discussion, Punk's had some duds as well. Mostly notably, his feud with The Rock really messed the mark and it was awkwardly bad. Not only that, but he pissed Rock off behind the scenes right off the bat (I think they patched it up quickly, but not a smart move for a such a big deal). Punk's reign with the WWE title was long and not particularly great. Solid matches with Del Rio, Ziggler, and a great tv one with Cesaro. Not bad, but I don't think you're gonna highlight those matches to the grandkids. Didn't elevate anybody else involved. As I said earlier, he killed Ryback's career. The Jericho feud isn't fondly remembered. I'd have to revisit the Danielson matches with AJ and Kane involved, I don't recall them being anything special.

You have the Cena matches, Brock and Taker (which featured Punk covering himself in Paul Bearer's ashes for the build) as far as Punk's peak in the WWE. His ECW run was pretty good, the Hardy feud was great and the stuff with Rey, but Punk still had to repackage himself after all that through SES/Nexus/Raw commentary and was lost in the shuffle until his second big push (slimmed down, short hair, more tattoos, Heyman, "The Pipebomb"). Cena noted in his promo that it took Punk a long time to break into the upper card.  

[dkuchler31096]

I would take Jericho by a slim margin, his consistency over a 30 year period.

For influence I would also take Jericho as well because well.... he was a CM Punk type wrestler before CM Punk was thought of

[Octopus]

Jericho is the Tony Bennett of wrestling. Rightfully or wrongfully, throughout his career he was often overshadowed by acts that were more popular or arguably better and he didn’t have that top Ace spot until a late career renaissance. Yes, Kenny Omega is Lady Gaga and Tony Khan is Amy Winehouse in this analogy lol. 

I agree that his reinventions can be a tad overstated, but what can’t be is Jericho’s longevity. Chris had an entertaining career with a variety of different opponents and fun segments. I hated him as a kid but I would say his catchphrases like “assclown.” 

Fun Fact: margin or error of 1 based off maybe birth month, but Jericho starting in AEW was the same age as Terry Funk (49) starting in ECW. It’s been fun watching this part of his career. He’s had some feuds that have gone on too long, but his highs were a real treat. In a shaky reintroduction to ROH in the AEW Universe, it was his Ocho run that made it work while waiting for a potential tv or streaming deal. I loved the Inner Circle and his commentary in the early Pandemic Era.

I feel (like him or not) Jericho is an important figure in [modern] wrestling history and the current landscape of the business.

 

Saying all that, I’m leaning towards Punk on this. Mainly, I’d rather watch a CM Punk match or promo than a Jericho one a majority of the time. I enjoyed the ROH/ Indy run, his time in WWE was pretty special, and the latest AEW period (drama aside) has been a real delight. 

 

Although I make Jericho jokes, I’m far from a hater. At the same time, I wouldn’t even consider myself a CM Punk guy. But out of the two, I guess I lean Punk.