AEW TV - May 3, 2023/May 5, 2023

[MoS]

21 minutes ago, MLB said:

Ricky's roughly the same size as Santos Escobar. WWE resigned Gargano. Balor is heavily pushed. Ricochet. 

Being signed is one thing, but are any of them treated like actual top guys though? WWF/E has always had smaller wrestlers to put over their actual stars in the main event or right on rop of the midcard, without actually becoming stars themselves. Don't think Balor or Ricochet or Escobar are anywhere different in that regard. Balor for instance has mostly been used to put over Edge and then to enable Rhea Ripley (an actual star) to reach the next level. I haven't watched WWE TV consistently for years now, so I might of course be wrong. 

[MLB]

35 minutes ago, MoS said:

Being signed is one thing, but are any of them treated like actual top guys though? WWF/E has always had smaller wrestlers to put over their actual stars in the main event or right on rop of the midcard, without actually becoming stars themselves. Don't think Balor or Ricochet or Escobar are anywhere different in that regard. Balor for instance has mostly been used to put over Edge and then to enable Rhea Ripley (an actual star) to reach the next level. I haven't watched WWE TV consistently for years now, so I might of course be wrong. 

Fair point on Balor, "heavily" was a stretch. He is regularly featured. I was only suggesting a potential signing. If Ricky were to sign there, I believe he would be booked in a similar position as those wrestlers mentioned. At worst, it'd be something like Robert Stone's role.

[KawadaSmile]

Balor, Escobar and Rey were focal points for the past few weeks. The LWO vs Judgement Day feud was a good showcase for all parties involved. At worst, that feud was in 2nd place in terms of TV time, and was the 3rd most important in terms of card plaement and built. 

 

But regarding age... Sammy is nearly 30. It's not like you can say he's super duper young or doesn't have mileage on him. Same goes for Allin, but at least there is more potential in him than in Sammy or Perry.

[MoS]

39 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

But regarding age... Sammy is nearly 30. It's not like you can say he's super duper young or doesn't have mileage on him. Same goes for Allin, but at least there is more potential in him than in Sammy or Perry.

3 years can be a lot in pro-wrestling terms, man, as we saw during the beginning of the Attitude Era. And during Ruthless Aggression. And during the Cena era. If you are in that position, you need some contacts to truly succeed, and we do not know if Ricky really has those contacts in WWE (how influential is Cody right now?)

[MoS]

15 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

Balor, Escobar and Rey were focal points for the past few weeks. The LWO vs Judgement Day feud was a good showcase for all parties involved. At worst, that feud was in 2nd place in terms of TV time, and was the 3rd most important in terms of card plaement and built. 

Sorry for being a bit snarky before, but have any of them been treated and/or booked like actual top stars?

Cuz by this logic, I can also say that Coke 2.0 were focal points on AEW TV for many weeks and that the Battle Royale was "a good showcase for all parties involved", and that Starks-White, "at worst, is the 3rd most important in terms of card placement and built". Does that negate the complaints we rightfully have about AEW's booking? Or, going in another direction,  do such criticisms only apply to AEW, for some reason? And do the defences to such booking only apply to WWE?

This will obviously not convince anyone that 2.CokeZero and Starks are being treated as massive stars. Which is fine. But when we start comparing pushes of midcarders as against pushes of main eventers in both companies, we find that WWE has no locus standi to boast of.

[The Man in Blak]

5 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

What the fuck do Jack Perry and Sammy Guevara have over Ricky? 

Ricky is miles ahead of them in terms of his ability to talk, but I don't know if I would put him on their level in terms of in-ring ability. That said, AEW has given Guevara and Perry featured TV matches almost every single week from the beginning, whereas Starks has spent a ton of time in AEW as a mouthpiece or a guest commentator or squashing jobbers on Dark. He's a guy (along with his Team Taz stablemate, Hobbs) that feels like a victim of AEW's inability to consistently develop people further down on the undercard.

[Jmare007]

Ricky should be a guy that is lined up for big Ws at Forbidden Door and All In (that way you compensate using him as White's first opponent). Then you make him take the title off MJF. Will TK do it with all the other fuckery going around in his locker room? I hope so....

[KawadaSmile]

5 hours ago, MoS said:

3 years can be a lot in pro-wrestling terms, man, as we saw during the beginning of the Attitude Era. And during Ruthless Aggression. And during the Cena era. If you are in that position, you need some contacts to truly succeed, and we do not know if Ricky really has those contacts in WWE (how influential is Cody right now?)

But in this case, it seems we are talking about going from year 1 to year 3, not necessarily a three year difference between talent. In that case, three years makes a ton of difference - the landscape changes, it's almost a full presidential mandate, but Ricky being 33 and Guevara turning 30 this year doesn't really mean one is old and the other is young, which is my overall point. 

5 hours ago, MoS said:

Sorry for being a bit snarky before, but have any of them been treated and/or booked like actual top stars?

Cuz by this shitty logic, I can also say that Coke 2.0 were focal points on AEW TV for many weeks and that the Battle Royale was "a good showcase for all parties involved", and that Starks-White, "at worst, is the 3rd most important in terms of card placement and built". Does that negate the complaints we rightfully have about AEW's booking? Or, going in another direction,  do such criticisms only apply to AEW, for some reason? They do NOT, which is why we remain here! Do the defences to such booking only apply to WWE?

This will obviously not convince anyone that 2.CokeZero and Starks are being treated as massive stars. Which is fine. But when we start comparing pushes of midcarders as against pushes of main eventers in both companies, we find that WWE has no locus standi to boast of. 

Oh, don't get me wrong - it's not that I think Starks would be seen as top guy, as that's already for a select few, but he has tools to make it into a comfortable TV role and upper-midcard placement from the get-go. Judgement Day is a solid act that more often than not leads the show and rarely has one single guy leading in, to make a comparison to JAS.  It's actually a good spot for someone like Ricky to land in his first or second year. 

The only programs ahead of JD/LWO is The Bloodline vs Canadians and Stoner and Brock vs Cody, and it has more screen time. Considering he sometimes vanishes from TV altogether on AEW, it would be an upgrade - even if he IS capable of more in both places. He sure can talk his way into an even bigger spot, regardless of being "small" - he could beef up, but his height is ok. He has a good look and can sell people into whatever feud they put him in.

@The Man in Blaksaid it well, it's about sustaining his push - the risk would probably be overexposing him, if he does make the jump.

[MoS]

8 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

 

Oh, don't get me wrong - it's not that I think Starks would be seen as top guy, as that's already for a select few, but he has tools to make it into a comfortable TV role and upper-midcard placement from the get-go. Judgement Day is a solid act that more often than not leads the show and rarely has one single guy leading in, to make a comparison to JAS.  It's actually a good spot for someone like Ricky to land in his first or second year. 

The only programs ahead of JD/LWO is The Bloodline vs Canadians and Stoner and Brock vs Cody, and it has more screen time. Considering he sometimes vanishes from TV altogether on AEW, it would be an upgrade - even if he IS capable of more in both places. He sure can talk his way into an even bigger spot, regardless of being "small" - he could beef up, but his height is ok. He has a good look and can sell people into whatever feud they put him in.

@The Man in Blaksaid it well, it's about sustaining his push - the risk would probably be overexposing him, if he does make the jump.

I get where you are coming from, and apologies for initially calling that logic shitty. I had not understood it properly - my bad. I take it back

[sek69]

Funny how Santos and the LWO are being held up as positive roles for someone like Starks to strive for in WWE, when over in the WWE TV thread we all point out that the LWO has basically been booked as jobbers since they were put together. Their role has been to be cannon fodder so it doesn't look like Rey is fighting the JD by himself. 

As far as Ricky goes, while the size works against him he makes up for that in promo skills which is the key to getting over in WWE.  He probably could hang at US/IC title level which is the most 95% of the roster can ever hope for anyway. It's clear to me that TK must have reason to believe he's good as gone since Ricky went from looking like the next big superstar of AEW to being put so far on ice he looks like Jack Torrance at the end of The Shining. 

Also I'm pretty sure the Pillars Tag didn't set the crowd on fire since it was pretty clear what the finish was going to be. Plus, as mentioned, Jungle Boy just doesn't come across as being as that Top Guy level yet (he would have been better served going after the TNT or International titles first to warm the fans up to the idea of him chasing a singles title). 

[MLB]

Starks already made his debut in WWE as an enhancement talent jobbing to Jinder Mahal before he debuted for NWA's Velocity Pro Wrestling in 2012. Keep in mind also he appeared on WWE TV as an extra for a Ryback segment in 2013. Starks again made an appearance on the March 19, 2018 episode of Raw as a US Marshal, arresting Roman Reigns, only for Starks to be attacked by Reigns. They're familiar with him.

About Ricky's contacts in WWE, I can't think of a better connection who isn't related to The Rock than Cody. Cody is a top guy in WWE now. Given his father's creative history and Cody's own EVP experience, I'd reckon he has some influence and they'll listen if he endorses a free agent coming from AEW. Fans kinda forget Cody asked to be released on his own accord and that WWE honored his request. They weren't looking to get rid of him. And Bayley is very popular backstage and like a daughter to Hunter. 

I have no insider knowledge, we're just trying to connect the dots for what led to the sudden end of his push in AEW. Jay White is a splashy signing on a fresh new deal, so then he's going over Starks.  

 

[KawadaSmile]

6 hours ago, sek69 said:

As far as Ricky goes, while the size works against him he makes up for that in promo skills which is the key to getting over in WWE.  He probably could hang at US/IC title level which is the most 95% of the roster can ever hope for anyway. 

I would say being featured in a program with Gunther would be pretty fucking sweet. The IC belt has been a joy to watch ever since that man won it.

Also, yeah. Lose but get featured heavily with more chances to shine, or win matches that don't do anything to your momentum? The latter is what happened to Starks regarding his feud with Jericho. He won twice but it didn't really do anything for him.

[Dav'oh]

We analyse it in written form but it's a (tele)visual medium and Starks doesn't have a "top-guy look". Perry's look is "top fuckboy babyface", Guevara "third-top shiteating heel". Darby has a unique look and style and appeal and is the interesting one, to me. He can't keep doing Jeff Hardy things to his body without Jeff Hardy pharmaceuticals (light schedule notwithstanding) but I don't know if he can do any style other than "breakneck" nor if he'd be as over if he ever has to curb his...enthusiasm.

[Jmare007]

RE: Starks. I think some of you guys continue to try to find reasons behind TK's bad booking when at this point I'm pretty sure it's basically that: bad booking.

I have no clue if Ricky stays or leaves soons, but if anything, Tony has showed he's willing to push people that could be perceived as a relevant signing by WWE, not put them on ice.

Tony is just not good at week to week TV booking, at all. He relies almost 100% on the wrestlers to do the heavy lifting, he's good at putting together matches that could be interesting and that's about it.

[KawadaSmile]

6 hours ago, MoS said:

I get where you are coming from, and apologies for initially calling that logic shitty. I had not understood it properly - my bad. I take it back

No worries big bubba, it's all good.

[MoS]

13 hours ago, Dav'oh said:

We analyse it in written form but it's a (tele)visual medium and Starks doesn't have a "top-guy look". Perry's look is "top fuckboy babyface", Guevara "third-top shiteating heel". Darby has a unique look and style and appeal and is the interesting one, to me. He can't keep doing Jeff Hardy things to his body without Jeff Hardy pharmaceuticals (light schedule notwithstanding) but I don't know if he can do any style other than "breakneck" nor if he'd be as over if he ever has to curb his...enthusiasm.

Disagree about Starks not having the "top-guy look". Also, and this will probably become more useful to him as his career progresses, Darby is a very underrated mat worker. He was a quite good amateur wrestler at high school level (much like Cody), so that helps him with his matwork. 

[Dav'oh]

Didn't know that, thanks. So my next thoughts were can Darby (not should Darby) work heel if needed? Would AEW fans ever embrace him as a heel? Has he done it before? Like I said, I find him and his potential the most interesting of the four.

I'm not against throwing their Lions (I see them as Young Lions rather than Pillars) in the main event. I'm sure they've got an excellent match laid out, it's whether they can time and execute it. They've all got something to prove.

[NintendoLogic]

Why would WWE want Ricky Starks when they have LA Knight?

[The Man in Blak]

 

[Embrodak]

Yeah I really don’t think there is any evidence to substantiate the notion that Starks would be being used better if he were staying. I haven’t heard any chatter about Hobbs wanting to leave, and it’s been like pulling teeth to get him anything even approaching a decent push, even as part of a tag team, for years now, despite him being a significantly more complete worker than Wardlow (also not making noise about leaving, also booked poorly and inconsistently). If you’re not a top guy or Elite friend and not in Tony Khan’s immediate sphere of awareness and intentionality, you’re going to be featured inconsistently, period.

[DMJ]

Starks vs. Jay White has gotten plenty of time and is booked like a significant feud for both guys, but I'm not sure its resonating with every fan that way.

I think the reason is because, for all the talk of AEW only having "smart" fans who follow all the indies and Japan and Mexico, that's just not true. There's a portion of the AEW audience (and I consider myself part of it) who are excited and generally positive about the company as an alternative to the WWE and came into it as WWE-centric viewers who, because of the ease of finding and following AEW on TV (compared to Impact, ROH, NJPW, etc.), were introduced to a whole new world of talent when AEW started. We may have known by name and reputation who some of the bigger "indie" signings were, but weren't necessarily knowledgeable of their work. So, for example, I didn't really know anything at all about Darby Allin or MJF or Eddie Kingston or the Lucha Bros before I started watching AEW. But then you see a Kingston promo or a Darby match or a Lucha Bros tag and you go, "Goddamn, these guys are incredible!"

I think that's why Jay White's debut has been a bit flat (to me, at least). Yes, the fans who know him and love him will tell you how great he is, but I haven't been blown away by any segment or match I've seen with him yet. Pairing him with another guy who most fans like me don't know or care about in Juice Robinson didn't help either. The TV crowds certainly haven't made me feel like I'm in the minority either, compared to, say, when Nakamura or Balor debuted in NXT and within the first two minutes, the crowd responses made it abundantly clear to me (as someone who'd never seen them before) that they were huge deals and I had already missed out on a ton of their best stuff (in Nak's case, maybe all of his peak years). 

And so it feels like Starks' momentum has been halted by a guy that Tony Khan might think is really cool and great, but doesn't come across as a big deal to anyone not "in the know." I'd have preferred Starks feud with the House of Black or maybe they could've inserted him into the Hobbs/Wardlow rivalry or it may have been cool to see him somehow added to this BCC/Elite feud in place of Takeshita (who is a great wrestler and all, but Starks getting thrown into the mix would've put him into the orbit of true tip-top AEW main eventers in Bryan, Mox, Omega, the Bucks, and to a lesser extent Cesaro). Hell, Starks vs. Swerve feels like a bigger feud than Starks vs. White to me. (And, just to be clear, I have no hate towards Jay White. I'm just indifferent to him right now. He should've had a bunch of spotlight victories, gone on a hot streak, maybe culminating with a PPV win over a guy like Jack Perry rather than going right into a feud with Starks for no apparent reason.)

[The Man in Blak]

Jay White as a heel, running the same tired Bullet Club playbook with Juice Robinson as Diet Gedo, is just a really awkward fit for the roster right now. White’s an incredible worker, but all of his best babyface pairings are tied up - Omega, Page and Cole are already in programs, Orange Cassidy is on a roll with weekly title defenses, Wardlow needs to build momentum as a new champion, etc.

With all other options removed for White to make a splashy re-debut, you‘re sort of left with Starks, who is so out of White’s league at this point that it can’t help but feel like he’s being set up as a speedbump. It’s a lose-lose program and, worse off, everyone in the audience knows it.

If White comes in as a babyface, his options aren’t much better (since the Elite decided that they needed a babyface program with the BCC), but he at least could be mixing it up with MJF and/or Sammy instead of the lackluster “four pillars” storyline.

[SirEdger]

If anything, Jay White seemed more of a big deal last year at Forbidden Door when he came in as the IWGP Heavyweight Champion. Nothing against Juice Robinson but he has barely been featured on AEW TV so far and Ricky Starks hasn't been exactly featured prominently recently (although he deserves it a lot). So I can understand how some people might feel like Jay's debut hasn't entirely lived up to expectations so far.

[C.S.]

5 hours ago, SirEdger said:

Jay's debut hasn't entirely lived up to expectations so far.

This is pretty much every AEW debut ever - aside from Punk, Moxley, Danielson (and even he was cooled off to a ridiculous degree for a while), and maybe Adam Cole and a couple of others.

It's the single biggest problem with AEW. Great first appearance, and then a downward slide from there.

[Dav'oh]

Vignettes and squashes. It's so simple.