WON HOF 2023

[Robert S]

22 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

What limitations does Lesnar have that need to be worked around?

If he meant the last couple of years: keeping his matches short as after a couple of minutes in usually his body colour changes in a very not-healthy looking way.

[ethantyler]

I've sent my ballot to Dave. For anyone else interested: 

HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA (eight maximum)
Argentina Rocca & Miguel Perez
Cowboy Bob Ellis
Jack & Jerry Brisco
Johnny Rougeau
June Byers
Kevin & Kerry & David Von Erich
Mad Dog & Butcher Vachon
Tiger Jeet Singh

MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA (five maximum)
Becky Lynch
Bill Goldberg
Paul Orndorff
Young Bucks

JAPAN (three maximum)
Shingo Takagi
The Beauty Pair (Jackie Sato & Maki Ueda)

MEXICO (three maximum)
Angel Blanco & Dr.Wagner
Dorrell Dixon
Sangre Chicana

EUROPE/AUSTRALIA/NEW ZEALAND/PACIFIC ISLANDS/AFRICA (four maximum)
Billy Joyce 
George Kidd
Jackie Pallo
Jose Tarres 

NON-WRESTLERS (six maximum)
Bobby Davis (U.S. & Canada historical)
Morris Sigel (U.S. & Canada historical)
Roy Welch (U.S. & Canada historical)
Stanley Weston (U.S. & Canada historical)
Ted Turner (U.S. & Canada modern)

- I'll note that Mike Marino made the ballot thanks to my longevity-on-top research from earlier in the year, but I couldn't justify voting for him with a 4 vote max in that section. If he gets knocked off, I hope he can return again in a few years time. 

[...TG]

Dave should have started from scratch years ago when it became evident that the 35/10 rule was ridiculous. 

[Kadaveri]

Unless I misunderstood him Dave says he's adding Jerry McDevitt to the ballot next year and I don't know what to think anymore.

[Control21]

I wrote an article outlining the case for Fujiwara's candidacy. Hopefully, it changes a few hearts and minds. https://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2023/10/25/won-hof-2023-the-case-for-yoshiaki-fujiwara/

I think the idea that he couldn't draw crowds needs to be put to rest. The data I found clearly says otherwise. If Fujiwara isn't a draw, then I don't know how you define "draw." 

[Timbo Slice]

If I remember right, the Fujiwara draw argument comes down to longevity as a true top draw and the “failure” of his promotions he started relative to other shoot-style outfits, which makes sense in some ways but was overblown. 

[Control21]

On 10/25/2023 at 2:33 PM, Timbo Slice said:

If I remember right, the Fujiwara draw argument comes down to longevity as a true top draw and the “failure” of his promotions he started relative to other shoot-style outfits, which makes sense in some ways but was overblown. 

I'm still not sure what a "top draw" means exactly but he was a consistent headliner for the first UWF, and headlined a fair number of shows for the second UWF as well. Almost 50% of the shows he was on for the second UWF had him in the main event. The main events he was in for NJPW 1986-1988 drew considerably well.  That's about 6 years or so right there combined. His PWFG promotion faced obstacles, with half of his roster leaving in 1992 to form Pancrase. The PWFG Tokyo Dome show wasn't a sellout like UWF U-Cosmos was, and that seems to be a knock against him, but they still drew 20,000 or so (40,000 in total was the reported attendance, but most of that was paper). But that shouldn't be a significant knock against him considering he was drawing houses of 10,000+ constantly for UWF 2.0

[...TG]

Kris and Bix did a podcast breaking down the ballot this week. It would be great if all the voters thought about it this thoroughly.

[ethantyler]

I did a show on the Rest of the World section (and Becky Lynch) that can be found here: https://www.patreon.com/posts/wrestling-hall-91712548

[cheapshot]

On 11/2/2023 at 3:53 PM, ...TG said:

Kris and Bix did a podcast breaking down the ballot this week. It would be great if all the voters thought about it this thoroughly.

Excellent show, really good to hear to knowledgeable guys without any agenda. 

[cheapshot]

27 minutes ago, Cien Caras said:

HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA(eight maximum)

Ole Anderson
Bob Armstrong
Junkyard Dog
Sputnik Monroe
Johnny Rougeau
Iron Sheik
Sgt. Slaughter
Kevin & Kerry & David Von Erich

MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA (five maximum)
Paul Orndorff
Rick & Scott Steiner

 

JAPAN (three maximum)

 

MEXICO (three maximum)
Sangre Chicana
Los Hermanos Dinamita (Cien Caras & Mascara Ano 2000 & Universo 2000)
Blue Panther

 

EUROPE/AUSTRALIA/NEW ZEALAND/PACIFIC ISLANDS/AFRICA (four maximum)
Big Daddy
Kendo Nagasaki
Jackie Pallo
Adrian Street

NON-WRESTLERS (six maximum)

Dave Brown (U.S. & Canada modern)
Bobby Davis (U.S. & Canada historical)
George Scott (U.S. & Canada historical)
Roy Welch (U.S. & Canada historical)
Stanley Weston (U.S. & Canada historical)
Grand Wizard (U.S & Canada historical)

Good ballot IMO. Is this a hypothetical ballot or a real ballot out of interest? 

 

 

[Noah's_Savior]

Beauty Pair should be in no doubt, any Japan ballot excluding them tells me that person doesn't know the history of the sport in Japan and how famous Beauty Pair were and how them and Mach Fumiake are the blueprint for joshi wrestling as we know it. Good luck trying to find wrestlers in the mid 70s bigger than them or Antonio Inoki and I mean that as entities in the consciousness of the Japanese public, in and out of the ring. AJW was still in its carny form and the Beauty Pair boom got them to actually formalize their business model and create standard practices both good and bad, like yearly auditions, the eventual height requirement, age retirement starts during Maki's WWWA title reign, women with idol-like looks, idols are accepted in the joshi wrestling space ie Mimi Hagiwara and Jurina, AJW learns how to make merchandise and leads the nation's promotions in the merchandising game IMO. There are only a handful of wrestlers in Japan, male or female, as important as Beauty Pair and a lot of people are showing how narrow their knowledge of Japan and the sport is with their exclusion.

[El McKell]

On 11/5/2023 at 4:02 PM, Noah's_Savior said:

Good luck trying to find wrestlers in the mid 70s bigger than them or Antonio Inoki and I mean that as entities in the consciousness of the Japanese public

Wouldn't Giant Baba be on the same level as the Beauty Pair for that? Anyway they should be in, it's very weird that Jackie Sato went in with the initial class without Maki to me.

[ohtani's jacket]

On 11/6/2023 at 1:02 AM, Noah's_Savior said:

Beauty Pair should be in no doubt, any Japan ballot excluding them tells me that person doesn't know the history of the sport in Japan and how famous Beauty Pair were and how them and Mach Fumiake are the blueprint for joshi wrestling as we know it. Good luck trying to find wrestlers in the mid 70s bigger than them or Antonio Inoki and I mean that as entities in the consciousness of the Japanese public, in and out of the ring. AJW was still in its carny form and the Beauty Pair boom got them to actually formalize their business model and create standard practices both good and bad, like yearly auditions, the eventual height requirement, age retirement starts during Maki's WWWA title reign, women with idol-like looks, idols are accepted in the joshi wrestling space ie Mimi Hagiwara and Jurina, AJW learns how to make merchandise and leads the nation's promotions in the merchandising game IMO. There are only a handful of wrestlers in Japan, male or female, as important as Beauty Pair and a lot of people are showing how narrow their knowledge of Japan and the sport is with their exclusion.

The trouble with this point of view, IMO, is when you're looking for historical information on how important a wrestler was historically, or culturally, you tend to look for the positives without taking a broader approach. If you look at AJW from the 70s and 80s, was there anything that AJW was doing that was entirely original? They were basically copying trends from both the entertainment industry and from within wrestling. Even the business model you're describing was unoriginal. It seems impressive within the context of wrestling but not within Japan. The Beauty Pair may be worthy of induction, but I wouldn't sound the trumpet too loudly. 

[NintendoLogic]

When the numbers are that high, that usually means at least one tag team got inducted, which I take to mean Rocca/Torres likely got voted in. Roman seems like a likely candidate as well. Who else?

[ethantyler]

I think he's counting a tag-team as one "new member". 

Regardless, my prediction: Rocca & Perez, Slaughter, Orndorff, Beauty Pair, Ishii, Los Hermanos Dinamita, and Blue Panther. 

[Robert S]

Is there any argument for Ishii besides having lot's of let's call them critically acclaimed matches in the upper midcard for 10 years or so? At least to me on paper he would look to be the new lower bar in the Japanese section.

[ethantyler]

Hase would be the HOF precedent used to justify Ishii. Both come down to how highly you value their work, which is completely subjective. Neither were draws, consistent headliners, major champions, or anything else of that nature. Based on this, I don't see Ishii as a new low bar. 
 

[Timbo Slice]

Hase had feature matches on big Dome shows in multiple promotions, Ishii has never been as high up on a Dome show as Hase has. The match quality argument can only hold so much water unless you are objectively, basically universally renown. 

[Robert S]

Also Hase had some backstage power (ergo influence), definitely in AJPW and I think also in NJPW before he left. For me the weakest inductee in the Japanese section always was Ultimo Dragon. Sure, he (co-?)founded Toryumon, but the promotion only followed the tradition of Universal and MPro and Dragon was not involved anymore when Dragon Gate was the number two promotion in Japan and even though he is credited with training the first couple of classes of Toryumon, I think common wisdom is that the real training was mostly done by luchadors like Skayde and Dos Caras. Still Dragon still looks like a much stronger candidate than Ishii.

[Robert S]

Looking a bit over the list of Japanese people in the HOF and the current ballot: was Takayama ever a candidate?

[ethantyler]

Takayama was eliminated from the ballot in both 2003 & 2005, but might make a 3rd appearance next year. He's one of a few names Dave's considering. 

[Control21]

1 hour ago, Timbo Slice said:

Hase had feature matches on big Dome shows in multiple promotions, Ishii has never been as high up on a Dome show as Hase has. The match quality argument can only hold so much water unless you are objectively, basically universally renown. 

Yeah, it bugs me when people say Ishii has the match quality argument when the likes of Takayama, Hayabusa, Fujiwara, Volk Han, and Tamura aren't even in the HOF.

[El McKell]

Just now, Control21 said:

Yeah, it bugs me when people say Ishii has the match quality argument when the likes of Takayama, Hayabusa, Fujiwara, Volk Han, and Tamura aren't even in the HOF.

The simple fact is the people who say that are people who like Ishii matches much more than they like matches from any of those people.

[Control21]

23 minutes ago, El McKell said:

The simple fact is the people who say that are people who like Ishii matches much more than they like matches from any of those people.

I just think its a case of people being lazy and not doing the research needed.