artDDP Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Before ECW became a complete joke they were influential in shaping the business during the decade of the '90s. Bischoff was the first to lift elements of ECW and try them out on a national stage. Examples include hiring Sabu and other cruiserweight and technical wrestlers and bringing in Public Enemy and their tables. Later the WWF implemented better character development and storytelling but Bischoff was the first to begin integrating some elements of where the business was going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 I don't know how much of the credit for copying ECW should go to Bischoff when his booker Kevin Sullivan used his wife, Nancy, who worked for ECW until the spring of 1996, to crib ideas to experiment with on Monday Nitro, and I think was even in direct contact with Paul Heyman at the time (who IIRC supposedly pushed for Eddy Guerrero to beat Big Show for the World title). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Morris Posted May 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 The one thing that is important to remember about the Monday Night Wars era was that, while WCW was taking a sizable lead in the ratings race, they didn't have that much of a lead in the PPV buyrate or house show department. They were producing must-see TV, but not as much with must-buy PPVs or tickets, unless it was a Nitro taping. One of Bischoff's biggest downfalls was getting so wrapped up in the ratings war that he neglected to ensure things were properly built for PPVs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 The one thing that is important to remember about the Monday Night Wars era was that, while WCW was taking a sizable lead in the ratings race, they didn't have that much of a lead in the PPV buyrate or house show department. They were producing must-see TV, but not as much with must-buy PPVs or tickets, unless it was a Nitro taping. One of Bischoff's biggest downfalls was getting so wrapped up in the ratings war that he neglected to ensure things were properly built for PPVs. WCW was a pretty hugely succesful company in every way during 97 and 98. Buyrates were way up from where they were in the mid 90's, and they sold a ton of tickets. I remember them having something like a 15-show sellout streak in 98. I don't think Bischoff gets enough credit for where WCW was in 93 and where it was in 98. WCW had a hard time selling 1,000 tickets to Omni shows when he took over. By 98-99 they were selling 40,000 tickets to the Georgia Dome just for Nitro. But, of course, you can't ignore what happened after that and how terribly he ran the place for most of 98 and 99. He's defintely a unique figure in wrestling history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Before ECW became a complete joke they were influential in shaping the business during the decade of the '90s. Bischoff was the first to lift elements of ECW and try them out on a national stage. Examples include hiring Sabu and other cruiserweight and technical wrestlers and bringing in Public Enemy and their tables. Later the WWF implemented better character development and storytelling but Bischoff was the first to begin integrating some elements of where the business was going. The WWF had Duke Droese hitting folks in the head with a trashcan in 94 (lifting elements from TWA and Todd Gordon era ECW I guess), and while Bischoff was quick to grab the NJ 3(Malenko, Benoit, Eddy) the WWF grabbed the plus one (Scorpio). Lifting elements or talent is one thing. Showcasing them in ways that grabs the audience is something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Bischoff showcased the NJ3 and allowed them to get over through their work, the same way he did with Rey and Ultimo Dragon. They got time on Nitro and PPVs to shine, belts (Cruiser, TV, even US), angles (Benoit in the Horsemen, Dean vs Jericho, Dean vs Eddie vs Syxx). WWF grabbed Scorpio, give him lot of production, a stupid name, dancers, and he never got over and was a jobber 4 months into his stint. Bischoff was surely much better at promoting all these guys. He was much better letting Raven get over with his stuff. Bischoff struck me as a lot more open-minded in his approach of the product. Really, if not for Bischoff, none of the NJ3 and Rey would have been grabbed by WWF. These guys were made by WCW and WWE only worked from there with Benoit, Rey and Eddie (although Eddie got awful stuff to work with early on with the Chyna nonsense). If Rey had not been pushed as the star of the cruiser division in WCW, the WWF would have never used him better than TAKA. Hell, they couldn't find a way to use Malenko, Saturn and Raven who were way over in WCW. Bischoff and WCW don't get enough credit for making those guys and allowing them to be used by WWF later on. They were too small and worked a style to far off from what WWF was used to to be used by Vince if WCW hadn't paved them the way. Duke Droese was influenced by early ECW and TWA? He was working hardcore matches with blood & broken bottles? Really? First real ECW influence in WWF was Bret lifting up a Sabu table spot in his SS match with Diesel in 95. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Living outside of Philly in the mid-nineties I may have been too exposed to idiots who thought Philly was center of the universe. But Duke Droese was all about the garbage can shots...I remember people assuming this was inspired by Philly wrestling. Don't know how it was covered in the sheets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 It was influenced by his gimmick of him being a garbage man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Living outside of Philly in the mid-nineties I may have been too exposed to idiots who thought Philly was center of the universe. But Duke Droese was all about the garbage can shots...I remember people assuming this was inspired by Philly wrestling. Don't know how it was covered in the sheets. I see. To me Duke Droese struck me as an updated version of the happy-go-lucky 2x4 swinging Hacksaw Duggan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 The last thing I want to do is discuss a minor WWF character from the early 90s but: It was influenced by his gimmick of him being a garbage man. Yeah there is a pretty straight line from The Genius’ scroll to the Dudleys tables to Helmselys sledgehammer (or belt shot). I still want to say that Droese getting hit with his own trashcan (and the bumps he took from the trashcan shots) were treated very differently than the Genius hitting someone with a scroll. Probably Phillycentric folks are idiots and Droese probably wasn’t an attempt to imitate garbage wrestling. The point was if it was an attempt to lift something from garbage wrestling, it was a poorly executed attempt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZThomas Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 I dont think Bischoff deserves so much blame for the Russo era of WCW. I think he was kinda in the some situation Gabe was in last year with ROH. He was burned out & the gave Russo more creative control with the shock TV & bad gimmicks an over saturated young talent. too many of those guy went from WCW Saturday night to Nitro overnight & I dont blame that on Bischoff. sure the Laissez faire management WCW gave us alot of good WCW saturday night over the years and great mid card bouts on just about ever televised card but he neglected alot of guys that deserved to be pushed to his top guys spot. I dont think he purposely held back too many guys in WCW, it seems like guys Dusty Rhodes, Sullivan & Terry Taylor played the role of JR the VP of Talent Relations. Just imagine is with Idea of WCW & NWo having there own separate shows, the could have made it so alot of top WCW guys & NWO guy face off on one show & the had more of the workrate, luchadores & ect compete with each other on the other like WCW saturday night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John O'Neill Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 I liked the theme of John's post that there are some positives and there are some negatives to the same thing. Something I always found interesting was the reaction of people to WCW using the Disney Studios in Orlando Florida to produce it's shows. Some people have alluded to the fact that WCW's production looked tremendously better with the lighting etc. Others, such as Mick Foley, have argued that the crowds showed no real emotion with signs saying 'cheer' and 'boo', and that detracted from the product. It's one of the reasons the recent Hisory of WCW DVD the WWE released was so sub-par, they were never going to show both sides. Take Dusty Rhodes, they talk about him as a genius and how he helped WCW - and he did. For example the build-up to Flair v Vader was tremendous! I loved the theatre of Flair kissing his family goodbye as if this was going to be his last match. According to Flair, that was Dusty and Eric working well together. But what about the 'Lost in Clevland' vignettes, which were Dusty's idea? Foley hated them. It seems the very things that made WCW successful were the same things that killed it. That's not something the WWE really captured in that DVD. Instead they portrayed Bischoff as a visionary... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 There's a Lost in Cleveland extra on the dvd, so they didn't totally ignore it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John O'Neill Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that equates to criticising Dusty Rhodes because they didn't attribute the vignettes to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Hell... I couldn't even remember what I wrote. Had to go look it up. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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