So, "Ring of Hell"...

[Resident Evil]

The problem with most people in general is that, when they get their own images of a person and worship the ground that person walks on, they will always be in denial that said person could possibly do anything bad, no matter how strong the evidence may be.

 

There were people in denial that O.J. Simpson could have possibly killed Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman, and people in denial that Michael Jackson could have possibly molested a young boy. They may have been found not guilty in the particular criminal cases they were tried for, but there is still plenty of evidence to show that both Simpson and Jackson are screwed-up individuals.

 

That doesn't mean, though, that we have to simply dismiss everything else they did. I still listen to Michael Jackson's music and appreciate his talent there. I just don't put it on a pedestal and believe that, because his music is good, that he can do no wrong no matter what.

 

It's the same way with Malenko. I respect his wrestling talent and he was very good at what he did in the ring. But I don't put him or any other wrestler on a pedestal and think of them as a "hero" or "role model."

 

Some people do that, though. And those are the people that are always going to have a problem accepting that Malenko could have possibly done something that was, in a word, wrong.

Personally, I don't have trouble accepting that so and so might have possibly done something wrong. I've lived life for awhile and have learnt that you can't be surprised by anything. I myself have gotten involved in a nasty dispute over a family member being a supplier of stuff he shouldn't have to another family member. It's true that some people do have trouble accepting stuff they don't want to though. Family members have trouble not being biased when it comes to family members.

I've also learned that what looks to be at first glance to be obvious is often not. Things can be complicated.

 

As far as thinking of a wrestler as a role model, personality is one thing which is up to each individual to decide but if you're looking just for someone who is a role model for work ethic than you can find it in wrestling. The reason being that the job requires a ton of it.

[Resident Evil]

Any more stories on the creepy nature of Steph and Vince's relationship?

 

What was the real story with Lagana?

*This reminds me that Jason Sensation was talking in an interview about being forced to do something with a high ranking WWF official while someone stood watch as a bodyguard or somthing like that. The only reason he got out of it was because someone else came and that allowed him to get out of the situation. I don't know who it was with.

 

*Might be inaccurate since my memory sucks

[Cox]

OK, so I've read the whole thing now, so some thoughts.

 

-First off, like I said, very engaging read. I picked it up last night and didn't put it down until I was done reading it. The book does a really great job establishing that Benoit's mindset clearly started going haywire at an early age, and only got progressively worse as time went on. I don't necessarily think that there is anything in this book that will be a total shock to any long-time wrestling fan, and I think most people know the basic story laid out in the book, but reading it all at once, it really hits you: Chris Benoit led a really fucked up life, and it was a life he chose to inflict upon himself for a ridiculously poor reason, to be the best professional wrestler in the world. I think we all knew this going in, though. Other than describing specific details of how rough the New Japan dojo was, I don't think anything about this book will cover new ground for wrestling fans who have followed Benoit's career religiously, and there isn't a lot of new ground broken on the crime itself that hasn't already been revealed, but even knowing the story and how it would end, the book always kept my interest.

 

-All of that said, I did often feel like the second most important person in the book wasn't Eddy Guerrero, Brian Pillman, Stu Hart, or anybody else, but Matthew Randazzo. It just feels as though his narrative forces his opinion down the throat of the reader. I agree with a lot of his own opinions, but personally, I feel that allowing the reader to reach these opinions on their own without his narrative being so heavy-handed would have made for a better book. I'm not disagreeing with what he has to say, we all know wrestling is a fucked up business and Chris Benoit was a massively, massively fucked up person. I just wasn't necessarily a fan of the narrative of the book, even though I thought it was funny at times.

 

-Also, that this is in the True Crime section of Barnes and Noble is ridiculous. The crime doesn't even get discussed until page 335 of a 341 page book. Before that, it's 334 pages establishing Benoit's mindset, with large tangents devoted to describing the tone of the wrestling business at certain times in Benoit's life. Yes, establishing the mindset of a man who would kill his wife, child, and then himself is important in discussing the killings, but it really feels like the crimes themselves are almost anti-climatic after everything else that takes place. It reads more like a wrestling book about a crime than a crime book about wrestling, if that makes sense.

 

Overall, I did enjoy the book, problems with narrative aside. Randazzo is a good author, and even if you don't agree with his opinions or his narrative, he's still clearly an interesting author with a good story to tell. Still, I don't necessarily feel like this is the "definitive" Benoit book, and that there may be even still more fucked up things we don't know about the Benoit situation. In particular, I think that there could be a great book written about WWE and the aftermath of the Benoit story, which this book didn't really touch on other than the tribute show. I would recommend it, but don't go into it expecting to learn anything that you didn't already know, either, except for some National Enquirer-esque backstage scandal stuff written about late 90's WCW and WWE since 2000.

[Resident Evil]

So how rough was the New Japan dojo?

 

 

What was it like compared to sumo?

[Bix]

Not having the book yet but having heard some of the stories from those who have plus read the Benoit WONs...

 

- In the dojo, Benoit's toughness was tested by having trainers punch him in the ear until it bled (this was in the 1st Benoit WON).

- If trainees complained about the low quality of food in the dojo, they would be sodomized with a banana.

- Jushin Liger would randomly punch trainees in the face.

- I think this one was in a shoot interview among other places and may be in the book: The NJPW foreigners stripped John "Pee Wee" Moore naked and made him do push ups while they urinated on his back.

 

I know there's a lot more in the book.

[Resident Evil]

Not having the book yet but having heard some of the stories from those who have plus read the Benoit WONs...

 

- In the dojo, Benoit's toughness was tested by having trainers punch him in the ear until it bled (this was in the 1st Benoit WON).

- If trainees complained about the low quality of food in the dojo, they would be sodomized with a banana.

- Jushin Liger would randomly punch trainees in the face.

- I think this one was in a shoot interview among other places and may be in the book: The NJPW foreigners stripped John "Pee Wee" Moore naked and made him do push ups while they urinated on his back.

 

I know there's a lot more in the book.

Some of the exercise stuff I've heard from there I can relate to and can verify how crazy it is.

 

That is vicious. I hope people had the option of leaving whenever they wanted and prir knowledge of what could possibly happen.

Personally, I'd be okay with the concept of being punched if I were to try for this. But it would have to be voluntary with prior knowledge. Does it cross the line of sanity? Yes. Is it necessary? I don't think so even if it does weed out the toughest people. Do I condone it? No. Would I have that done to me? I don't think so because I think the health consequences would be too great.

 

I'm not okay with the bannana thing. I hate it. I don't even know why someone would to do that to someone else.

 

Lyger doing that was probably expected even if it was random

 

Urinating on the back is just completely wrong even if Moore were to "voluntarily agree" to it.

 

This wasn't the article I read a few months ago but the dojos in Japan are ruthless. The article I read went into more detail on what happenend to the sumo trainee. This isn't pro wrestling but it is sumo wrestling and a glimpse of what dojos can be like. I'm not sure if Takashi Saito is the person I previously read about dieing or if it's a different person.

 

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:x-z8j5...;cd=4&gl=ca

[Bix]

Personally, I'd be okay with the concept of being punched if I were to try for this. But it would have to be voluntary with prior knowledge. Does it cross the line of sanity? Yes. Is it necessary? I don't think so even if it does weed out the toughest people. Do I condone it? No. Would I have that done to me? I don't think so because I think the health consequences would be too great.

 

Did you grind your feet on Eddie Murphy's couch?

[Dylan Waco]

I disagree with Cox. I think Matthew's narrative style makes it much more readable and interesting then the average book on wrestling. A point-by-point Scott Williams style book on Benoit would have been a lot less interesting and frankly I think a lot of the crazy shit that went on would seem more "normal" without Randazzo's willingness to point out that things like the Stampede Wrestling traveling situation really was subhuman treatment.

 

To answer the earlier question, Matthew Randazzo is an old "IWC" personality though I'm sure he would cringe at that term. I think I first encountered him on the net about nine years ago. He was a teenager then and was one of the bigger contributors over at a1wrestling.com, particularly in the Kawada Appreciation FanZone section, which for a while was probably the most interesting match discussion forum on the net. He and I worked on a few ridiculous projects over the years and I got to know him pretty well. Then one day about five years ago he just "disappeared" from the "scene" so to speak. He has always been a good writer and though extremely combative and very good guy. I was happy to see the book come out as I knew he would do the topic justice.

[ohtani's jacket]

I hope people had the option of leaving whenever they wanted and prir knowledge of what could possibly happen.

They usually run away.

 

I don't think guys getting punched is a big deal. If you enter a dojo you should expect to get hit and beaten. A lot. Beating someone to death is criminal & those wrestlers should have been prosecuted, but it was hushed up, swept under the carpet, to the point where you can't find any information on it in Japanese. The sodomy & urination is the type of thing I'd expect from guys like these. They're jocks, basically. The problem is violence begets violence. A lot of Japanese wrestlers come from broken homes, had abusive fathers or no father at all. They're angry & channel that anger into violence. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a shitload of domestic violence as a result. And the pattern of violence and humiliation (degradation) repeats itself. If your senpais beat the shit out of you & humiliate you, only strong-willed people break that cycle. A certain degree of violence towards trainees is part of training (and it's pussy to suggest otherwise), what's in question is the motivation behind that violence. Are you beating the shit out of someone to toughen them up, or because you want to break them for some reason?

[Dylan Waco]

Or are you beating them up "for the business"?

[sek69]

I don't think guys getting punched is a big deal. If you enter a dojo you should expect to get hit and beaten. A lot. Beating someone to death is criminal & those wrestlers should have been prosecuted, but it was hushed up, swept under the carpet, to the point where you can't find any information on it in Japanese. The sodomy & urination is the type of thing I'd expect from guys like these. They're jocks, basically. The problem is violence begets violence. A lot of Japanese wrestlers come from broken homes, had abusive fathers or no father at all. They're angry & channel that anger into violence. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a shitload of domestic violence as a result. And the pattern of violence and humiliation (degradation) repeats itself. If your senpais beat the shit out of you & humiliate you, only strong-willed people break that cycle. A certain degree of violence towards trainees is part of training (and it's pussy to suggest otherwise), what's in question is the motivation behind that violence. Are you beating the shit out of someone to toughen them up, or because you want to break them for some reason?

 

People being trained for a fake sport need to be subjected to real beatings? We're not talking about a Drill Instructor who needs to tear into someone's ass because the recruit might one day be seeing actual combat here. The whole point of pro wrestling is to convey the illusion of real fighting. If you're going to start beating people for real you might as well go into MMA.

[ohtani's jacket]

If you can't take a punch you shouldn't be in the ring. Seriously. What are you gonna do the first time you get hit for real?

[Childs]

The bit about Sasaki suplexing the trainee to death is pretty awful. And Inoki's looniness really comes off as epic (Saddam Hussein and the North Koreans? Wow.)

 

Overall, the book is a good read because he really makes an effort to put every part of Benoit's career in context. It has a bit of a weird vibe. He rebukes and dismisses the business and Benoit's devotion to it. But at the same time, he writes with smarkish appreciation about some of Benoit's greatest matches. Didn't bother me but it definitely carries a different tone than it might have if it had been written by a journalist coming from a place of total non-fandom. Overall, it's not quite like any other book I've read about wrestling. And I mean that in a good way. He did a good job of getting inside via sources but retaining some perspective on what all the stories mean.

[Loss]

I read the book and I'm glad it was written. The fact that so many of the quotes are actually on record I think is a wonderful thing that does a lot to lend credibility to the story. Also, message board posts at this board have now been published!

 

The whole thing is really a horrific tragedy of a story, with way too many casualties, but I think it's good for everyone to read.

 

In terms of stuff never really revealed before, I think the stuff that stayed with me the most was:

 

-- Vince SCREAMING at Linda in his limo when she tried to make one of the writers feel comfortable by telling him a story about a time she and Vince got lost in Nebraska, since that's where they were driving. Stephanie then started laughing at her mom for stupidly riling up Dad for no reason, and HHH then piled on, with HHH saying that it sounds like Linda has Alzheimers. Unbelievable.

 

-- The Vince/Steph spooning/drool thing has already been mentioned, but I think the look of disgust HHH had toward the whole thing was the most interesting part.

 

-- Scott Hall sitting next to Benoit in WCW and having a several-minute conversation with him, giving Benoit the impression he's taking him seriously, only for Benoit to look down and see Hall urinating on his shoes (That was mentioned very briefly in the Jericho book, but this went more in-depth)

 

-- The stories of drugs, travel insanity, and ribbing in Stampede Wrestling are ridiculous. As is the needed background on Stu Hart and Dynamite Kid.

 

-- Most of the big New Japan Dojo stuff has been mentioned already, but to me, it's the most fascinating part of the book. Amazing the Stockholm Syndrome-esque relationships that are formed in training, even with Baba still feeling subservient decades later

 

-- The role of Eddy having to spend a lot of time, due to their storyline together at the time, with Chyna when she was dealing with the fallout of HHH starting his relationship with Steph (Vince to Chyna: "Well, I hope you don't lose your job over this"), being something that probably negatively affected both of their addictions, was an interesting perspective

 

-- Interesting as well: Benoit had respect for Flair and Arn Anderson, and looked to them to watch out for him, and it became very apparent it wasn't going to happen. Benoit got really embarrassed on a plane flight when Flair looked up a flight attendant's skirt and said something like, "Just checking, no hair, no Flair!" and Arn tricking the women in WCW into thinking he was booker, so they would sleep with him. He has this weird term he uses when offering oral sex to women that I can't remember off the top of my head.

 

-- We sort of already knew this, but it's still fascinating to me that everyone, including Benoit and Guerrero, went out of their way to seek the approval of and be liked by Scott Hall and Kevin Nash in WCW, and people seemed genuinely hurt when they didn't get it.

 

-- I had forgotten about Billy Gunn saying, "If you're not down with Owen Hart, I have two words for you -- SUCK IT!" on the Owen tribute show. Classy.

 

The only criticism I can really offer is the Prelude setting up an immediate contradiction just a few pages in. The prelude quotes Bobby Heenan saying that you don't make good money in wrestling, only to just a couple of pages later mention that Chris Benoit was a millionaire and owned a mansion.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

-- Interesting as well: Benoit had respect for Flair and Arn Anderson, and looked to them to watch out for him, and it became very apparent it wasn't going to happen. Benoit got really embarrassed on a plane flight when Flair looked up a flight attendant's skirt and said something like, "Just checking, no hair, no Flair!" and Arn tricking the women in WCW into thinking he was booker, so they would sleep with him. He has this weird term he uses when offering oral sex to women that I can't remember off the top of my head.

Cat bath!

 

-- I had forgotten about Billy Gunn saying, "If you're not down with Owen Hart, I have two words for you -- SUCK IT!" on the Owen tribute show. Classy.

That wasn't even the sleaziest thing on the show. That would be Road Dogg and Godfather pledging to go burn one and tell some Owen stories. Touching.

 

The only criticism I can really offer is the Prelude setting up an immediate contradiction just a few pages in. The prelude quotes Bobby Heenan saying that you don't make good money in wrestling, only to just a couple of pages later mention that Chris Benoit was a millionaire and owned a mansion.

The prelude quotes him as saying you will "probably not" make good money. Chris Benoit was a 20-year veteran and former world champion who main evented several PPVs. He made a lot of money. Others will not.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

More stuff from the book, in addition to what Bix said about the NJPW training: They would be woken up at 8AM to go for a three-to-five mile run. Then they would be forced to eat a large breakfast, after which they had an hour to perform chores for their sempai (mentor). At 10 they would start their workout, which consisted of around a thousand Hindu squats and 500 pushups. If they showed pain, they were forced to do a few hundred more squats. Then they would get into the ring and have the trainers stretch the hell out of them. At 2 they would get a few hours of "free time" (although according to Osamu Nishimura the free time is spent doing chores, cleaning, and training). Then it was back to the dojo for more working out. Then dinner and bed, although sometimes the trainers would get them up at 2 for another workout.

[Dylan Waco]

Jushin Liger not wanting to leave the dojo and going back at 2AM so he could practice crazy new spots with helpless Young Boys is for some reason really apalling to me.

[Jingus]

People being trained for a fake sport need to be subjected to real beatings? We're not talking about a Drill Instructor who needs to tear into someone's ass because the recruit might one day be seeing actual combat here. The whole point of pro wrestling is to convey the illusion of real fighting. If you're going to start beating people for real you might as well go into MMA.

To an extent, yeah. Wrestling involves a fairly staggering amount of longterm pain. If you can't handle a punch in the face, you can't handle being a wrestler. Training needs to be a little bit rough in order to weed out the wannabes who would otherwise be wasting everyone's time. I've been to several training classes where some starry-eyed kid who had zero talent or chance to ever make it got run off by just taking a few bumps or getting chopped a couple times, and then being all "fuck that, this is supposed to be fake!". An argument could also be made that you need at least a little shoot training in case you have an opponent try to take advantage of you, or are working in some really old-school place like Puerto Rico where fans still take this shit seriously and sometimes go after the workers.

 

Of course it should go without saying that the Dojo took it way too far. A thousand squats every day?! Holy permanent tendon mutilation, Batman. Even in Ken Shamrock's egomaniacal autobiography, he only claimed to be able to crank out five hundred during his training in Japan. Waking them up in the middle of the night, making them do chores, humiliating them for minor infractions; they were training these guys like they were trying to make Green Berets, not fake wrestlers.

[Loss]

I should really get the Eddy book. I never read it. He actually really thought Kevin Nash was fundamentally evil because of his attitude toward wrestling. I can get not liking or being pissed off by the guy, as based on stuff that we've seen and read, Nash was probably an asshole. But evil?

[Jingus]

I don't know how Eddy meant it. But I could see it if you're talking about Nash's role in the eventual downfall of the company. Aside from maybe Hogan, I can't think of any other single wrestler who did more to drive the company into the ground in the dying years. Depriving an entire company of wrestlers from making a good living could be seen as evil.

[Dylan Waco]

Nash is in no way responsible for the death of WCW. That is a talking point that needs to be taken out back and shot.

[Jingus]

It depends on if you believe the theory that Time-Warner wouldn't have canned it if it had still been turning in good ratings and not lost buckets of money. Nash's booking tenure and championship reigns coincided with drops in ratings, and buyrates.

[Bix]

People being trained for a fake sport need to be subjected to real beatings? We're not talking about a Drill Instructor who needs to tear into someone's ass because the recruit might one day be seeing actual combat here. The whole point of pro wrestling is to convey the illusion of real fighting. If you're going to start beating people for real you might as well go into MMA.

To an extent, yeah. Wrestling involves a fairly staggering amount of longterm pain. If you can't handle a punch in the face, you can't handle being a wrestler. Training needs to be a little bit rough in order to weed out the wannabes who would otherwise be wasting everyone's time.

So be constructive and do bump drills instead of attempting to break them down w/ facepunching/legbreaking/forcible sodomy.

[S.L.L.]

If you can't take a punch you shouldn't be in the ring. Seriously. What are you gonna do the first time you get hit for real?

Wonder why someone is shooting on you in the 21st century? Respond by beating the shit out of him? I don't know what the protocol is for something that hasn't happened in over a century.

 

But seriously, I'm aware some dudes don't work their punches, but....

 

A. They're the ones fucking up, not you. There's no reason to be catering to them.

B. How the fuck does one learn to get punched in the face for real, anyway? It's a pretty straightforward process. No training required.

[Jingus]

So be constructive and do bump drills instead of attempting to break them down w/ facepunching/legbreaking/forcible sodomy.

Which is what I was alluding to in the rest of the post. Nobody's saying they didn't take it way, way overboard.

 

Wonder why someone is shooting on you in the 21st century? Respond by beating the shit out of him? I don't know what the protocol is for something that hasn't happened in over a century.

What. Yeah it does happen. Not on most of the more reputable shows, but disagreements and fights happen all the time on the smaller indies. When you get a bunch of maladjusted macho egotistical types who think they're tough guys together in one room, it's almost inevitable that you're eventually gonna have problems and someone is eventually gonna try to stretch someone else. I've personally seen liberties taken in the ring by guys who were seriously trying to hurt their opponents more times than I care to remember. It doesn't happen on every show or anything like that, but it happens often enough that wrestlers at least need to know some basic self-defense if such a situation arises.