Wrestling Myth Busters

[Bob Morris]

In response to S.L.L., I don't think the myth of "the money is in the chase" comes from Hogan hatred and Flair love as it does from the Hogan/Sting example of WCW 1997, where they positioned Sting as Hogan's nemesis in February and held off all the way until Starrcade in December to do the payoff match, giving WCW one of its best buyrates in the process.

 

Of course, what people forget is that the build saw generally little interaction between Hogan and Sting, and every time it happened, Hogan and the nWo were freaked out, where as Hogan and the nWo tended to treat others as an afterthought.

 

What people forget about Flair's lengthy title run is that the NWA had guys in mind to take the belt off Flair to see how well they could fare as the next champion. They had David Von Erich in mind at one point and we know what happened there, and the Kerry title win was just done to give fans a feelgood moment.

 

As far as Hogan goes, the only wrestler where evidence _might_ suggest he could be the champion and still draw is Roddy Piper. But Piper isn't touted by certain smarks because he wasn't this "great worker" whereas DiBiase and Hennig are touted as such, regardless of the fact that evidence shows business wasn't as good when DiBiase was parading with the World title for a couple of shows or when Hennig was challenging Hogan.

 

And another point on "the money is in the chase" may be that it applies to smark hatred for John Cena. But from reading reports and show reviews, it seems more like it has to do with how Cena is booked, in that often fans aren't given a reason to rally behind him. Case in point: When they did the angle some time ago where Randy Orton attacked Cena's father, I read reports about how Cena was getting far more cheers than boos, thus indicating fans who would normally boo Cena had found a reason to get behind him.

 

But again, with Cena, it's not that he should be chasing more often... it's that he should be booked so fans are willing to get behind him. This was done plenty of times with Hogan in the 1980s, hence why he kept most of the fans behind him.

[khawk20]

regardless of the fact that evidence shows business wasn't as good when DiBiase was parading with the World title for a couple of shows

Is this really a fair comparison for illustrating your point? DiBiase with the title at house shows was both brief and so close to the event on NBC happening that most of the tix for those shows would likely have been sold already.

 

Not disagreeing with your point per se, just with this being used as an example of it.

[MikeCampbell]

Maybe somebody should ask Lex Luger just how much money is in the chase. You'd think he'd have outdrawn Hogan and Austin put together if there was anything to that claim.

Loss, you've got those '88 editions of the WON, any info about Flair/Luger as a drawing card leading up to the 'Bash or Starrcade?

 

Also, does anyone have any specifics as to how well Flair/Luger did in 1990, with Lex as the fill-in for Sting?

 

I think Loss pretty much nailed it though. There are times that a hot angle or a good storyline can draw money with the simple chase and keep the fans coming back in hopes of finally seeing the blowoff. But it's far from being an iron clad concept, Hogan, Inoki, Austin, Misawa, and I'd even add in Hashimoto, they all held their titles during their promotion's best days during their respective eras and there wasn't any sharp decline in business.

[Jingus]

The myth theory is that chases work in of themselves. The examples here clearly show that you've got to have characters who are already over in order to make the chase really successful. Like, the 6 months between when Austin was screwed out of the title in '98 and when he finally got it back at Wrestlemania XV. Russo swervy booking aside, that was a well-done chase, since it had all kind of subplots along the way and involved a variety of people who the crowd already really loved or truly hated.

 

Another thing fueling the popularity of the myth is how often a well-executed chase is followed up by pure botchery. Sting/Hogan is the one big example, Goldberg is another, where the exciting chase to the title was utterly sabotaged after the victory, leading to fan apathy on a large scale. Along similar lines, Flair did his damndest to make every babyface challenger look like a world-beater in the 80s, but in the end none of those guys ever seemed great enough to carry the promotion as a top guy for one reason or another.

[Jingus]

Case in point: When they did the angle some time ago where Randy Orton attacked Cena's father, I read reports about how Cena was getting far more cheers than boos, thus indicating fans who would normally boo Cena had found a reason to get behind him.

I dunno about that, iirc the fans were still booing Cena at the PPVs. Even worse was an example I clearly remember, where Orton was wrestling Cena Sr. while the champ was handcuffed to the ropes outside. Randy beat the shit out of Dad and Cena swore furious revenge, and the response of the crowd was... a loud, prolonged "YOU CAN'T WRESTLE!" chant. And no, this wasn't in some Northeastern smark hipster stronghold, this was in Nashville.

 

SLL's name has been in italics for a while now, he's brewing up a Bible of commentary somewhere.

[S.L.L.]

I hadn't thought of the Hogan/Sting feud. That does seem like a rather obvious point in the myth's favor, and kinda careless of me to overlook it. That said, it's a point against, too, because Hogan and the nWo never relinquished the top spot for very long, and the faces kept chasing them as the company started losing money and heading towards it's grave. Again, I certainly wouldn't say that you could never have a heel on top - especially when said heel is as effective as Hogan was in '96 - but that's a strategy with it's limits, and it's not a good long term plan. Not something you could do for two years or more without starting to alienate the fanbase, and odds are against even holding it that long.

[MikeCampbell]

The myth theory is that chases work in of themselves. The examples here clearly show that you've got to have characters who are already over in order to make the chase really successful. Like, the 6 months between when Austin was screwed out of the title in '98 and when he finally got it back at Wrestlemania XV. Russo swervy booking aside, that was a well-done chase, since it had all kind of subplots along the way and involved a variety of people who the crowd already really loved or truly hated.

 

Another thing fueling the popularity of the myth is how often a well-executed chase is followed up by pure botchery. Sting/Hogan is the one big example, Goldberg is another, where the exciting chase to the title was utterly sabotaged after the victory, leading to fan apathy on a large scale. Along similar lines, Flair did his damndest to make every babyface challenger look like a world-beater in the 80s, but in the end none of those guys ever seemed great enough to carry the promotion as a top guy for one reason or another.

Did Goldberg even really have a "chase" to the title? I like to think I've got a pretty good memory for stuff and I'm completely blanking on any real "chase" he was the U.S Champion and just doing his usual thing. Then it was announced he'd be going for the title, and the night of the show he had to go through Hall to get his match with Hogan.

[Jingus]

An old-school example would be the Sheik in Detroit. According to every old timer: the crowds packed the building for years hoping to see him lose, but since he never did, eventually the territory floundered and died.

 

EDIT:

Did Goldberg even really have a "chase" to the title? I like to think I've got a pretty good memory for stuff and I'm completely blanking on any real "chase" he was the U.S Champion and just doing his usual thing. Then it was announced he'd be going for the title, and the night of the show he had to go through Hall to get his match with Hogan.

No, he didn't have a title chase per se. I meant more along the lines of how ratings were higher during the early days of The Streak, and were steadily dropping once he got the belt itself.

[Bob Morris]

regardless of the fact that evidence shows business wasn't as good when DiBiase was parading with the World title for a couple of shows

Is this really a fair comparison for illustrating your point? DiBiase with the title at house shows was both brief and so close to the event on NBC happening that most of the tix for those shows would likely have been sold already.

 

Not disagreeing with your point per se, just with this being used as an example of it.

 

DiBiase was one example I thought of off the top of my head where I've seen some people say he should have won the title and let Hogan chase him (and supposedly, the original plan was to let DiBiase win it at WM IV).

 

It may not have been the best example, but I don't exactly see the evidence that DiBiase would have been a strong draw, even if he's just holding the title until Hogan completed No Holds Barred and would regain it upon his return.

[Bob Morris]

Did Goldberg even really have a "chase" to the title? I like to think I've got a pretty good memory for stuff and I'm completely blanking on any real "chase" he was the U.S Champion and just doing his usual thing. Then it was announced he'd be going for the title, and the night of the show he had to go through Hall to get his match with Hogan.

No, he didn't have a title chase per se. I meant more along the lines of how ratings were higher during the early days of The Streak, and were steadily dropping once he got the belt itself.

 

The Goldberg stuff definitely goes back to the botchery Jingus referred to earlier. After Goldberg won the title, he wasn't treated like the top guy, they just kept picking people at random to trot out against him. The win definitely generated a huge crowd response (unlike Sting's title win, where people couldn't make heads or tails of it), but like Sting, the follow up was badly executed.

[JHawk]

Bruno Sammartino being a huge money draw in the Northeast for years at a time pretty much shoots "the money is in the chase" right out of the water. For decades, the Northeast was built on a dominant babyface as champion, and it drew well.

 

It's all dependent on the area. Most NWA territories were built on the chase of the local guy going for the World Title. Dusty in Florida, Lawler in Memphis, the Von Erichs in Dallas, etc. A well-built chase can draw, but so can a dominant champion if the fans have a reason to care.

[sek69]

I just always assumed the "money in the chase" stuff was mainly pushed in places where the heel champ had some control in the booking and didn't want to be without the title for any extended periods of time. What better way to accomplish that than to convince everyone the real money is in having the face chase him around?

[kjh]

Sek brings up a good point. I know HHH bashing is overplayed at this point, but part of me wonders if all the recent talk about there's always being "money in the chase" is WWE sources having to defend to Dave Meltzer HHH always being the long term World champion with a straight face.

 

I think I agree with most here that though a well booked chase can certainly draw money, if the chase isn't paid off with a dominant run for the babyface as champion, it's usually counterproductive in the long run for the babyfaces and companies involved. You can point to Lawler's chase in Memphis and the Von Erichs' chase in Dallas as drawing, but that they chased for so long and their World title runs were so unspectacular, it did a lot of damage to the luster of their top babyface and consequently their territory in the long run.

[khawk20]

DiBiase was one example I thought of off the top of my head where I've seen some people say he should have won the title and let Hogan chase him (and supposedly, the original plan was to let DiBiase win it at WM IV).

 

It may not have been the best example, but I don't exactly see the evidence that DiBiase would have been a strong draw, even if he's just holding the title until Hogan completed No Holds Barred and would regain it upon his return.

Fair enough, but your statement of Dibiase's "title reign" not drawing doesn't read in the same vein as this, hence the question.

[khawk20]

I just always assumed the "money in the chase" stuff was mainly pushed in places where the heel champ had some control in the booking and didn't want to be without the title for any extended periods of time. What better way to accomplish that than to convince everyone the real money is in having the face chase him around?

Hogan chasing Bockwinkel from 1982 through 1983 is a good example of the chase being a big draw, although Hogan would have been a big draw even if he had won the title the first time he challenged for it. Verne had a program in mind here, though, and stuck to it for a full year (between Aprils of 82 and 83).

Hogan not getting the title at the end of the chase was more about money than Verne not wanting to give him the belt, as has become known in recent years. One thing people forget about Verne booking is that he had both sides of the coin going on in the AWA: He was the dominant face champ (last title reign was 7+ years), and his successor, Bockwinkel, was a dominant heel champ (5+ years in his first reign). the numbers at the gate had to have been steady enough, and profitable enough, that the various chase scenarios each man went through as champ were working.

[S.L.L.]

I think I agree with most here that though a well booked chase can certainly draw money, if the chase isn't paid off with a dominant run for the babyface as champion, it's usually counterproductive in the long run for the babyfaces and companies involved. You can point to Lawler's chase in Memphis and the Von Erichs' chase in Dallas as drawing, but that they chased for so long and their World title runs were so unspectacular, it did a lot of damage to the luster of their top babyface and consequently their territory in the long run.

Also probably worth noting, when talking about the territories, that the heel world champ wasn't actually there 24/7 like he would be in a national promotion to rub his seeming unbeatability in the fans' faces. The NWA could afford to have long-term heel champs because the territories usually had their own babyface stars to act as the center of attention on a day-to-day basis.

[sek69]

I just always assumed the "money in the chase" stuff was mainly pushed in places where the heel champ had some control in the booking and didn't want to be without the title for any extended periods of time. What better way to accomplish that than to convince everyone the real money is in having the face chase him around?

Hogan chasing Bockwinkel from 1982 through 1983 is a good example of the chase being a big draw, although Hogan would have been a big draw even if he had won the title the first time he challenged for it. Verne had a program in mind here, though, and stuck to it for a full year (between Aprils of 82 and 83).

Hogan not getting the title at the end of the chase was more about money than Verne not wanting to give him the belt, as has become known in recent years. One thing people forget about Verne booking is that he had both sides of the coin going on in the AWA: He was the dominant face champ (last title reign was 7+ years), and his successor, Bockwinkel, was a dominant heel champ (5+ years in his first reign). the numbers at the gate had to have been steady enough, and profitable enough, that the various chase scenarios each man went through as champ were working.

 

 

The Hogan chase ended up blowing up in their faces since they ended up jerking the fans around with the Dusty Finishes having Hulk win the title then reversing it (aside: how is that finish associated with Dusty when Verne was far more guilty of abusing it?).

[Bob Morris]

The Hogan chase ended up blowing up in their faces since they ended up jerking the fans around with the Dusty Finishes having Hulk win the title then reversing it (aside: how is that finish associated with Dusty when Verne was far more guilty of abusing it?).

We may very well have our next myth to debunk.

 

At any rate, I do remember in the Meltzer WC posts thread that Verne offered to put the AWA title on Hogan and Hogan turned it down given that Hogan also worked New Japan, while Verne had an agreement with All Japan, and Hogan didn't want to give cut of his Japan earnings to Verne.

 

Assuming what Dave said is true, one has to wonder what Verne's mindset was... if he believed he could send fans home happy without having to actually let Hogan win the title, or if he thought the constant reversals would be along the lines of "the money is in the chase" with his ultimate intent to put the title on Hogan once and for all.

 

Either way, it was flawed thinking because fans can only tolerate so many reversed decisions.

[Loss]

I tend to think it was more "We need Hogan in our main events, but he can't do jobs or win the title, so what do we do?"

[jdw]

Before getting into the Chase conversation, one thing people should keep in mind:

 

Austin didn't hold the belt as long as people think:

 

03/29/98 - 06/28/98

06/29/98 - 09/27/98

03/28/99 - 05/23/99

06/28/99 - 08/22/99

 

That was largely his "prime" in the WWF before going out to the injury after SS '99. His final run in 2001 was largely as a heel.

 

Perhaps some of this is the "modern era" where titles fly all over the place. But they found a way late in 1998 to get the belt off him to start a chace that would climax at Mania 99. They took the belt off him again to payback the following month. How long would he have lasted with the belt in 1999 without the injury? One would guess they they would have taken it off him to challenge for it at Mania 2000.

 

The point would be that Austin did well both chasing and holding in his prime as a face. His peaks within that peak were Mania 98 and Mania 99 where he challanged. I wouldn't say that's proof that he worked best chasing because Mania is Mania - it's going to be a peak. The company does like to have the top face in a chase roll on that card, but it's not an absolute.

 

John

[jdw]

As far as Hogan goes, the only wrestler where evidence _might_ suggest he could be the champion and still draw is Roddy Piper. But Piper isn't touted by certain smarks because he wasn't this "great worker" whereas DiBiase and Hennig are touted as such, regardless of the fact that evidence shows business wasn't as good when DiBiase was parading with the World title for a couple of shows or when Hennig was challenging Hogan.

Piper's drawing in the WWF was pretty spotty. There were a lot of comments by Dave back then that the only thing that was drawing consistently was Hogan. Piper was one of the headline guys on other cards with his long feuds again Snuka and Orndorff. In terms of TV angles, those weren't bad feuds. But still, Piper didn't knock it out of the park. Same went for his face turn in 1986 through his retirement - spotty drawing.

 

I'm not sure Piper would have drawn as Heel Champ in the WWF.

 

DiBiase as champ *probably* would have draw well against Hogan simply because it's Hogan chasing his belt. Would it have drawn any other way, such as Savage chasing him until Hogan got back, then shifting to Hulk vs Ted? Hard to tell. Savage vs Ted did good business, but Randy was champ against a Ted he'd already beaten. I think that says less for Ted than for fans being interested in Randy as champ for parts of his reign.

 

The WWF wasn't very good at booking heels. They were pretty good at booking faces, especially at the very top. They were the attractions, and the opponent was just that: the latest opponent. They got the opponent over, but it wasn't like it was done by having Savage beat all the top faces before taking on Hogan for the first time in MSG in 12/85. They largely were very close to building them up how they did back in the 70s.

 

Seems like WWWF/WWF fans were less interested in seeing the Chase than they were in seeing their guy win or beat up the heel. The heat Backlund got in his match against Rose in late 1982 was pretty nutty, and he was four and a half years into his run there.

 

John

[Sean Liska]

I think sometimes you guys are looking at things a little too cynically. "The money is in the chase" wasn't something created to make Ric Flair look good or to justify a heel's position on top (not that it can't be used for that). It's a promotional adage that goes back decades. And tons of succesful territories have used the theory. It's more of an Eddie Graham idea than an internet creation. Is it absolutely the only way to promote pro wrestling with no exceptions? Of course not - WWWF is the best example of that. They went about things the complete opposite way and were hugely succesful.

 

But the whole idea of the NWA champion was based around guys from different territories chasing him. All Japan made great use of this psychology in the 90's - Kobashi and Kawada spent years chasing wins against guys higher up the totem poll than them. Jack Brisco chased the NWA title for years. The Von Erichs chased Flair. It's just an idea of a way to book. Not an absolute but it can work.

[Sean Liska]

Before getting into the Chase conversation, one thing people should keep in mind:

 

Austin didn't hold the belt as long as people think:

They kept it off the Rock for a long time as well. He turned face the night after Backlash 99 and didn't win the belt until Backlash 2000. He lost it the next month, won it the month after that, held it for five months, and lost it again. He wasn't even really the focus of the promotion during his actual title reign. Jericho-HHH got more hype than Rock-Benoit going into Fully Loaded, the Angle-HHH-Stephanie storyline carried the promotion for the next few months with Rock being a guest star in the feud at SummerSlam, and then Austin's return dominated most of the rest of the year. He was a top face that was probably more effectively booked chasing than as champion- definitely a rarity from a McMahon promotion.

[kjh]

I think it must be remembered that the last WWE boom period was really short in comparison to Sammartino's, Backlund's and Hogan's runs carrying the promotion. It's definitely proof that tied to Mania a hot babyface chasing a heel champion can do tremendous short term business. It's not proof that it's a viable way to book a national promotion long term. Austin's heel title run was a bust, so was Jericho's, so was Triple H's outside of the Batista feud, so was JBL's and so on. House show business was in steady decline for several years until they got behind John Cena and Batista as fresh babyface headline acts (and later DX and Rey Mysterio).

[Loss]

I think part of the reason for that goes back to jdw's original point: that the WWF has never been particularly good at booking heels. It's a babyface promotion, through and through.