Who Is Better?

[Jingus]

Has Angle ever worked a smarter match than Jarrett v Chyna?

In what way? I agree that the JJ/Chyna matches were better than they had any right to be, and am trying unsuccessfully to come up with a joke involving their Good Housekeeping match and the word "broomstick". But what particular details are you talking about that make the match so smart?

[tomk]

HHH has been a more or less succesfull anchor for a promotion for almost a decade.

 

Jarrett lacks main event presence or charisma compared to who?

[El-P]

Has Angle ever worked a smarter match than Jarrett v Chyna?

No, not even close. Well, I don't think Angle ever worked a smart match where the smart was coming from him. The Chyna match is Jarrett's masterpiece, but maybe Patterson was here to help a lot too, although I do think Jarrett didn't really need him.

Jarrett was so good in WCW in 96 and the fact that the audience didn't want him as a Horseman was what made the thing work. Jarrett had better match with Benoit and Deano than these two had working together, and in that respect, that makes him a great go along worker. And he could carry weaker people to solid matches too. Not main event potential, but I take Jarrett over HHH any day as far as who I'd enjoy to watch the most and who's the smartest and best worker in the ring.

[Loss]

HHH has been a more or less succesfull anchor for a promotion for almost a decade.

 

Jarrett lacks main event presence or charisma compared to who?

Well, HHH is one example.

 

HHH is a black hole of charisma himself, but you can point to a time period where what he did was working, and if programmed with the right person, he was fine.

 

Jeff Jarrett has never really gotten the desired reaction. I guess he can get boos sometimes for certain spots in matches, but he's never been able to translate that into anything bigger.

 

I hate to make this argument because it does in some ways validate that mindset, but HHH can get away with that more than Jarrett can because he's physically larger.

 

I think what has always hurt Jarrett is that it seems he has tried too hard, and pandered too much for heat. I like the "heel points to his head" spot after ducking a move before eating babyface offense, but Jarrett overdoes spots like that as a heel. His ring entrance I have always thought was pretty terrible also, specifically in 1999-2001 WCW, because within seconds of being out from behind the curtain, he was already making huge hand gestures and telling fans to shut up. Most of the great heels I can think of are able to generate heat without doing that.

 

He also has a horrible strut that I'm not even sure if he uses anymore or not. As a heel, I guess that would be fine, but he obviously has no concept of what about his persona works and what doesn't, or he wouldn't have continued the horrible strut in WCW as a babyface.

 

I agree that the whole "I want to be a Horseman" angle was pretty poorly conceived, but it also really exposed everything annoying about Jeff Jarrett, and I think it's the best example of what I'm trying to say.

[kjh]

Jeff Jarrett has never really gotten the desired reaction. I guess he can get boos sometimes for certain spots in matches, but he's never been able to translate that into anything bigger.

 

I hate to make this argument because it does in some ways validate that mindset, but HHH can get away with that more than Jarrett can because he's physically larger.

I think this is a bit unfair, as there were brief periods where Jarrett gained traction as a heel and got the right reactions. With help from Brian "The Roadie" James, he made the cartoonish "Double J" gimmick work and for a while was perhaps the hottest heel in the WWF. Both times before he jumped ship in 1997 and 1999, he was picking up steam as a heel too and getting the right reaction from crowds. Of course, at those periods of his career he wasn't overpushed like he later would be.

 

Size does play a part in it, but so does the size of the promotions they run. I think if Hunter was working in front of the same small hardcore audience week after week, the backlash to him playing the invincible superman top star would have been just as vociferous.

[Loss]

How do you figure that his 1995 heel run worked? Yes, he was over as a midcard act, but I think that's his limit. Jim Ross and Steve Austin were right.

 

Keep in mind that in 1997 WCW, they didn't even try to negotiate a new deal with him. They let him go, in part because of the type of fan response he received.

 

Toward the end of his second WWF run, yes, he started to get the right reaction ... as a midcard act. A program with Steve Austin would have been beyond him, even if the matches would have been good. I would say between repackaging and constant winning, the WWF put more effort into getting him over during that time period than they did Billy Gunn. And between the two, Billy Gunn was the bigger star at that point in time.

 

I think if Hunter was working in front of the same small hardcore audience week after week, the backlash to him playing the invincible superman top star would have been just as vociferous.

No doubt. But that's not the audience HHH is working in front of. That is the audience Jarrett is working in front of, and that's because Jeff Jarrett is not a big time player.

[kjh]

How do you figure that his 1995 heel run worked? Yes, he was over as a midcard act, but I think that's his limit. Jim Ross and Steve Austin were right.

In 1995 there was a real dearth of heels in the WWF that were over. That he got over despite a cartoonish gimmick and more than the level of his push, unlike Sid, Mabel, Dean Douglas, Davey Boy Smith, etc, should be considered a feather in his cap. I really take JR's and Austin's opinions with a pinch of salt, given their feud with Russo at the time and Austin's grudge with Jarrett and paranoia in general.

 

Keep in mind that in 1997 WCW, they didn't even try to negotiate a new deal with him. They let him go, in part because of the type of fan response he received.

Actually Eric Bischoff offered him a new deal, which Jarrett turned down. I really think the lack of negotiations was more due to Bischoff disliking Jarrett personally, than the type of fan response he received. Bischoff didn't even negotiate with Chris Jericho, while offering fat contracts to less talented midcarders like Rick Steiner, Scott Norton and Stevie Ray.

 

Toward the end of his second WWF run, yes, he started to get the right reaction ... as a midcard act. A program with Steve Austin would have been beyond him, even if the matches would have been good. I would say between repackaging and constant winning, the WWF put more effort into getting him over during that time period than they did Billy Gunn. And between the two, Billy Gunn was the bigger star at that point in time.

A program with Steve Austin was really beyond Triple H at that point. I think if you went back, you'd find that Jarrett in July '99 was actually getting more heat than Hunter through his shortlived angle where he was abusive to Debra. Gunn may have been a bigger star, but his heel push was also one of the biggest flops of all time and he was getting no heat whatsoever.

 

No doubt. But that's not the audience HHH is working in front of. That is the audience Jarrett is working in front of, and that's because Jeff Jarrett is not a big time player.

Jarrett works in front of that audience because he burnt his bridges with WWE. If he had left on good terms, he'd have likely taken Rhyno's spot in the Invasion angle and been involved in the upper midcard mix in WWE for several years.

[Herodes]

Jarrett was probably at his best a few years into his career when daddy shipped him off to Dallas to reign as the top babyface of whatever was left of the Texas territory. In the USWA Dallas (and I'm referring to the '91 era post Von Erich in front of tiny Sportatorium crowds) he worked very well. He couldn't follow in the footsteps of Fargo and Lawler since Memphis demanded charismatic heroes who were great on interviews that the people could live and die with. Dallas on the other hand was happy to accept dumb blonde babyfaces who fulfilled the criteria of being young and good-looking even if they were horrible on interviews and lacked real charisma. Given that he was the top face in a dead territory with only the diehard Dallas fans who stuck with the promotion despite all the deaths and scandals watching, he managed to get over just fine, and he understood the mechanics of being a babyface.

 

But really that also highlights Jarrett's problems as both a face and a heel - he is fine at the mechanics, understands how to put a match together and what to do at what times, but he has always lacked the intangibles and charisma to ever be a star.

[Marty]

In 1995 there was a real dearth of heels in the WWF that were over. That he got over despite a cartoonish gimmick and more than the level of his push, unlike Sid, Mabel, Dean Douglas, Davey Boy Smith, etc, should be considered a feather in his cap. I really take JR's and Austin's opinions with a pinch of salt, given their feud with Russo at the time and Austin's grudge with Jarrett and paranoia in general.

KJH makes a really good point about the lack of top heels in the company at that time. The WWF is a company known for having transitional heel champs, but the gold went: Diesel-Hart-HBK-Sid (now a babyface)-HBK-Hart-Sid-Taker until Bret got the gold during his final run, making him the first heel champ for the company in almost three years, in spite of seven title changes during that period.

 

I don't know if Vince lacked faith in heels at the time to even carry the gold for a brief period of time, but it was a very weird period where only the babyfaces were pushed. Even though it is a babyface promotion.

 

So I too think Jarrett did well given the circumstances, and I also thought Roadie was a good second.

[stunning_grover]

Jeff Hardy vs. Lex Luger

 

I have been somewhat of a Jeff Hardy fan since his days as WWF jobber in 1995. I liked the way he seem to work harder and bump wilder than almost all of the other jobbers (except for the Black Phantom). When he finally started to get his push in 1999, I had already lost interest in WWF (I really dislike 1998-2001), but I was happy to see that he finally got his push. Anyway, he is a pretty good worker who is just a little sloppy. Nothing really special, but still worth watching most of the time.

 

Lex Luger gets more hate than he deserves. He wasn't a great worker, but he wasn't nearly as bad as some people try to make you believe. He also seems to have a reputation for being in the business just for the money, but I'm sure he is not the only one.

 

So... Hardy or Luger? Both are not the greatest, but definitely not the worst either. In the end, I think I'd have to go with Luger, who seemed to be a little bit better as a worker and also a safer worker. Hardy is just a little bit too sloppy. Also, Luger was better at more serious old school type matches, while Hardy is better suited for shorter and more modern high spot oriented matches. Hardy is really good for the current WWE product, but from an all time perspective, Luger is better.

 

Interestingly enough, I do consider myself somewhat of a Jeff Hardy fan, but not really a Lex Luger fan... still I'd rather watch a Luger match than a Hardy match, which I guess says a lot. Luger's matches are generally speaking better than Hardy's matches, in my opinion. Hardy falling off of ladders looks pretty cool, but it doesn't make him a better wrestler.

 

 

Jeff Jarrett vs. Kurt Angle

 

There was a time when Kurt Angle was ridiculously overrated (but this seems to have changed in more recent times). Seemingly everybody was talking about how awesome he was. I never really understood all the love Angle got. People talked about Angle as if he was on the same level as Eddy Guerrero and Chris Benoit. But Angle was just a decent worker who was able to work WWE type matches and somehow convinced people into thinking that he was a really awesome worker. His hype was just the trend of the time, I suppose.

 

Jeff Jarrett is better than Angle and less irritating than Angle (which says a lot, I guess, because the man who once claimed to be the world's greatest entertainer isn't exactly that entertaining). Jarrett's style is mostly suited for USWA style matches, but he managed to be successful in other promotions as well. Personally, I never really cared much for him. But I actually thought his 1994-1995 WWF run as a midcard heel was pretty good. His best match ever was his match against Shawn Michaels in July 1995 at In Your House 2. Angle's best match was also against Shawn Michaels, but I don't like that one as much as the Jarrett vs. Michaels match.

 

Anyway, I'm definitely picking Jarrett. Angle had a short and overrated prime. Jarrett had a longer and better prime. And in the future, I think Jarrett will be remember more and also in a more positive way than Angle.

 

 

Dean Malenko vs. Chris Candido

 

Dean Malenko was very good, but he was also very overrated (by the people on the internet).

 

Chris Candido was very good, but he was also very underrated (by a lot of people).

 

So, this is an interesting comparison. And this is a though call. But in the end, I think I'd have to go with Candido. I think he was more versatile and entertaining. Malenko was very good at the Malenko style matches, but those matches are overrated and he was less good at changing his style in favour of his opponents. For example, I remember a really disappointing Malenko vs. Psicosis match from World War III 1996 among other disappointing Malenko matches.

 

When I saw this comparison listed, I was almost sure I was going to choose Malenko (this probably had to do with some of his New Japan work vs. Benoit I watched recently). But after thinking a bit longer, I realised how underrated Candido really was and that he was actually quite a lot better than Malenko.

 

 

Psicosis vs. Rey Misterio Jr.

 

Always an interesting comparison, espcially when there's people who watched a lot of AAA involved in the discussions.

 

Psicosis was so much better than Rey Misterio Jr. in AAA. He was one of the reasons that Misterio looked so great. Rey obviously ended up having a more successful career, but that's a bit unfair because he is only one of four Mexican wrestlers who ever got a good push in the United States (Psicosis and all the others got buried).

 

Still, I think Misterio should be thankful for how great Psicosis made him look during 1992-1996. Those were crucial years in Rey's career and I'm not sure if he would be so popular and successful today if it weren't for his feuds with Psicosis in the past.

 

Also, don't forget about Juventud Guerrera. WCW loved making it seem like Rey was way better than Psicosis and Juventud, but in reality, they were all pretty close to each other in terms of quality. But unfortunately, Psicosis and Juventud got buried almost immediately when they entered WCW. Juventud and Misterio had some very interesting matches together in AAA, which definitely wasn't all about Rey. I think the best matches Psicosis, Rey, and Juventud ever had were the matches they had against each other in AAA.

 

On a side note, back in the days of the "greatest wrestler ever" poll on Smarkschoice, I made a controversial statement about how I felt that Rey was not one of the 100 greatest wrestlers of all time (while I felt that Psicosis was one of the 100 greatest of all time). And I think I would still not place Rey in my top 100, while I would definitely would still put Psicosis in my top 100.

 

I know people love Rey's WWE work, but I still enjoy his AAA work a lot better. I admit that he is one of the more enjoyable workers in WWE and the kids love him. He plays his babyface role perfectly (but he has always done that). Some aspects of his work may have improved over the years, which means he is a very good wrestler (but this doesn't make him a great wrestler from an all time perspective). The greatest thing about Rey's career was his 1993-1996 AAA work (and arguably also his ECW and even his early WCW work in 1996), because that was when he was so new and refreshing. He was an amazing high flyer who had people talk about him all the time. But in WWE, he is just another WWE worker who adapted to the WWE style... big deal. The entire aspect of Rey's appeal has disappeared. He is no longer the young and exciting wrestler who gets thrown around by Psicosis and manages to fight back with incredible never before seen high flying moves. Those days are gone. In my opinion, Rey's best years was 1992-1996 and Psicosis' best years were also 1992-1996. Psicosis was just crazy in AAA. He was a wild bumper who was a great base for the high flying wrestlers. I think Psicosis was more all-round than Rey, because Psicosis seemed to add a lot more to the matches than Rey. Psicosis would not only bump like a madman, but he would also try to add rudo brawling and some matwork to the (six man tag) matches he participated in. Psicosis also seemed to add more in terms of charisma and getting heat. Rey was just really good at playing the young technico who got thrown around by the rudos and eventually tried to fight back with his unique high flying offense.

[Bix]

I posted this last year in a "wrong kind of heat" thread at KM:

Jarrett's an incredibly gifted worker who just couldn't hit the right note as a heel (except for his last few months in the WWF as an over the top moustache-twirler) and drew more ire when he got boosted to world title runs that he shouldn't have. As a babyface, he was tremendous, working a slightly modernized version of the Memphis style that built on the traditional Lawler-Dundee style foundation and added more athletic highspots. He got rejected as a babyface in Memphis because the marketing of his poster triggered the stereotypical wrestling fans' hate of women and homosexuals the same way John Cena has the last few years. He had a number of great matches as a babyface, including an absolute classic with Eddie Gilbert on the USWA Challenge syndicated show from Dallas in 1990 (the one where Gilbert works the leg while cheating like mad and ends with a Dusty finish). His best match of the last decade or so was during his brief TNA babyface run where he led the now-useless Raven to a great Memphis style brawl.

He was always hurt most by being pushed ways that he shouldn't have. He was doing fine for his first two years or so in Memphis to the point that he was a favorite of newsletter readers (especially the Tanaka feud, which included tags that out of town fans in the area for conventions raved about as incredible 5 star matches), but then

, which was a terrible misstep as it overdid the blowjob face aspect without the "cool edge" of the Fabs' music videos or the tough guy aspect of the Fabs. As mentioned above, he never clicked well as a heel aside from a 2 month or so period in 1999, and burnt out in Memphis after his heel turn to the point that his dad pulled strings to get him into the WWF. He was waaaaaaaaaaaay overpushed in WCW. He pushed himself too hard in TNA as such a dominating champion (especially with not putting the belt on Raven when Raven got over big), and too many fans knew he was the owner/booker. He seemed rejuvenated during his babyface runs (the TV match where he carried Raven in a Memphis style arena tour brawl was really good, and while I haven't seen that Angle match it seems like everyone liked it a lot) but during the last run he also pushed himself too much like a '80s Bill Watts (though the sympathetic widowed single father angle was a good one to play).

[Herodes]

Jarrett's matches with Eddie Gilbert were tremendous, probably his best matches. Aside from the Dallas match mentioned above, there is also a great match from Louisville I think where Cornette is Jarrett's babyface manager and it's a great Memphis-style match. In dallas he also had very good matches with Steve Austin (a singles match stands out as well as a tag with Fuller against Austin and Tom Pritchard). He also had a lot of good tag matches down there with Dundee and Billy Travis as partners against the likes of Embry, Gary Young etc. But after the Moondogs feud in Memphis when they tried to push him as the top man he was awful, because he was a horrible babyface interview. In '93 when they brought back Fargo to endorse him as the new Fabulous One and they had segments every week with various minor celebrities endorsing Jarrett as 'fabulous' you couldn't help but hate him. Although he burn out pretty quickly, at the time Brian Christopher was so entertaining and charismatic in the USWA, and JJ just came across like a pampered daddy's boy geek. Memphis was different to Texas and being a pseudo Von Erich goody two-shoes didn't cut it there.

[Dylan Waco]

The greatest thing about Rey's career was his 1993-1996 AAA work (and arguably also his ECW and even his early WCW work in 1996), because that was when he was so new and refreshing. He was an amazing high flyer who had people talk about him all the time. But in WWE, he is just another WWE worker who adapted to the WWE style... big deal. The entire aspect of Rey's appeal has disappeared. He is no longer the young and exciting wrestler who gets thrown around by Psicosis and manages to fight back with incredible never before seen high flying moves. Those days are gone.

This is exactly why Rey is a great worker, and why he is much better now than he was back then. Rather then rely on the same old stock spots that got him over, Rey reinvented himself as a wrestler who's matches emphasize selling and defensive wrestling. The spots are still there but rather than the match being purely about Rey being fast, exciting and "fresh" the matches are about Rey's comebacks. The fact that he was able to adapt himself to the WWE style without watering himself down to the point of having no appeal is in fact a "big deal." And despite toning down his style the young generation still regards him as the most exciting guy around as well.

[Dylan Waco]

All this Jarrett stuff is interesting and insightful. I'd kill to get a hold of some that USWA stuff, much of which I haven't seen in years if at all.

 

I agree that Jarrett's initial Double J run got a lot of heat and I also agree that a lot of that had to do with Brian Armstrong, who is also almost entirely responsible for the limited success Billy Gunn had in his career.

 

I think HHH physical size may account for some of the reason he's been able to work on top despite lacking charisma. But the primary factor in his semi-success was that the WWE invested the better part of two years pushing him as a beast that ran roughshod over every hot heel they had. Getting to "retire" the most beloved babyface in the company was really only the start and it grew from there. There was a year long period where he was never doing jobs and I think just by virtue of being next to other top acts people start to see you as a top act after a while. Jarrett never had the right friends to get that sort of push, nor did he fuck the right ring rat. So HHH is where he is and Jarrett is where he is.

 

Still on merit I don't think Jarrett is a consistent main eventer. To me Jarrett is best as a utility player of sorts that fluctuates around the card depending on the needs of the company. Jarrett is a guy you could in the right context opposite a Shawn Michaels (he gave Shawn his best non-gimmick match ever IMO) or a Jay Lethal. Those who say he couldn't hang in the main event scene under any circumstances should watch his Greed 01 match with Flair v. the Rhodes. A lot of it is Dusty being really over and Flair being there, but Jarrett works a Southern heel schtick in this that makes the match and sparks the crowd despite the fact that he probably wasn't regarded as a "top heel."

[Guest Kenta Batista]

Has Angle ever worked a smarter match than Jarrett v Chyna?

I would say Angle's smartest match was his match with Eddie Guerrero at WM20, because in that match he only threw 2 punches. The entire match and only two punches where exchanged. Angle wrestles like Savage,so for him to pull back the reigns and actually do LESS and STILL come out with a good match is a testament to his talent.

[ohtani's jacket]

KJH makes a really good point about the lack of top heels in the company at that time. The WWF is a company known for having transitional heel champs, but the gold went: Diesel-Hart-HBK-Sid (now a babyface)-HBK-Hart-Sid-Taker until Bret got the gold during his final run, making him the first heel champ for the company in almost three years, in spite of seven title changes during that period.

Heel champions were only ever transitional champs back then and Vince was looking for a babyface draw. I think it was a little murkier than babyface champs for three years. Either Bret or Diesel could've turned heading into SS '95, but they both ended up as tweeners. Sid was a tweener as well. He was a heel who started getting babyface pops because Michael's face run didn't have any pre-Attitude era edge to it. UT may have been a face, but his gimmick was that he was otherwordly. Aside from the failed Diesel push, where they really put him up against some ridiculous opponents, there was one clear cut babyface run in that period (Michaels) and it sucked.

[El-P]

I think what has always hurt Jarrett is that it seems he has tried too hard, and pandered too much for heat. I like the "heel points to his head" spot after ducking a move before eating babyface offense, but Jarrett overdoes spots like that as a heel. His ring entrance I have always thought was pretty terrible also, specifically in 1999-2001 WCW, because within seconds of being out from behind the curtain, he was already making huge hand gestures and telling fans to shut up.

That I can agree with. His WCW character was a lot worse than what he did before, because it was forced as hell. In a way I think he made the country singer gimmick work much better than the "pissed off" Jarrett which never seemed natural to me. Jarrett was at his best from 95 to 97. The "Choosen One" gimmick was terrible and didn't suit Jarrett very well to me (basically, it was HHH's real life gimmick), Jarrett was much better as a chickenshit. He did way too much compared to the actual amount of heat he recieved at this point, and the fact that he was never made to be a regular main-eventer was the killer (although I'd argue that HHH is just as bad in that respect, only he was pushed down everybody's throat forever and fed every biggest star of the business at the time). Jarrett was a very good upper mid-carder to me, but I never bought him as a main event guy.

[Marty]

KJH makes a really good point about the lack of top heels in the company at that time. The WWF is a company known for having transitional heel champs, but the gold went: Diesel-Hart-HBK-Sid (now a babyface)-HBK-Hart-Sid-Taker until Bret got the gold during his final run, making him the first heel champ for the company in almost three years, in spite of seven title changes during that period.

Heel champions were only ever transitional champs back then and Vince was looking for a babyface draw. I think it was a little murkier than babyface champs for three years. Either Bret or Diesel could've turned heading into SS '95, but they both ended up as tweeners. Sid was a tweener as well. He was a heel who started getting babyface pops because Michael's face run didn't have any pre-Attitude era edge to it. UT may have been a face, but his gimmick was that he was otherwordly. Aside from the failed Diesel push, where they really put him up against some ridiculous opponents, there was one clear cut babyface run in that period (Michaels) and it sucked.

 

I can buy the "everyone but Michaels was kind of a tweener" argument (after all, that would help Michaels' push), but when was Sid a heel in 96/97? He came back as Shawn Michaels' ally for the International Incident show as a replacement for the Warrior. I can buy him being a tweener for the Shawn feud in late 96/early 97, but at what point during that time period (again, not during 95) was he a heel?

[Jingus]

Sid often got cheered by the live crowds, but he was basically booked as a heel from his title win on through Wrestlemania. He was pretty clearly supposed to be the evil villain in his matches against Shawn, Bret, and Taker. The rest of the roster was awfully tweeneriffic at the time, which made him look less heelish by comparison though.

 

Jarrett's matches with Eddie Gilbert were tremendous, probably his best matches. Aside from the Dallas match mentioned above, there is also a great match from Louisville I think where Cornette is Jarrett's babyface manager and it's a great Memphis-style match.

That one Texas death match that was on the RFVideo "Best of Jeff Jarrett" tape? (No, I did not actually pay money for that, a friend had it and I happened to see it.) Hell of a fun match, like a demo reel of practically every Memphis main event trope all shoved into one match, with piledrivers and ether-soaked rags and dueling managers and everything all at once.

[kjh]

Yeah, Jingus is right. His title win was clearly booked in a way to elicit boos (causing Jose Lothario to have a suspected heart attack, using a camera against Shawn), but the mainly male MSG crowd decided to cheer him on regardless when he used those dastardly tactics. I suspect he would have been booked as a full blown heel rather than more of a tweener if the reaction at Survivor Series went as planned.

[Herodes]

Sid often got cheered by the live crowds, but he was basically booked as a heel from his title win on through Wrestlemania. He was pretty clearly supposed to be the evil villain in his matches against Shawn, Bret, and Taker. The rest of the roster was awfully tweeneriffic at the time, which made him look less heelish by comparison though.

 

Jarrett's matches with Eddie Gilbert were tremendous, probably his best matches. Aside from the Dallas match mentioned above, there is also a great match from Louisville I think where Cornette is Jarrett's babyface manager and it's a great Memphis-style match.

That one Texas death match that was on the RFVideo "Best of Jeff Jarrett" tape? (No, I did not actually pay money for that, a friend had it and I happened to see it.) Hell of a fun match, like a demo reel of practically every Memphis main event trope all shoved into one match, with piledrivers and ether-soaked rags and dueling managers and everything all at once.

 

Yes it was that match and it was all great Memphis stooging, heeling, comeuppance and all the other schtick. I saw it on an RF Best of Eddie Gilbert tape I think.

[Guest DietSoda]

Stan Hansen or Vader?

 

Eddy Guerrero or Rey Mysterio?

 

Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels (an oldie, but I'm curious where people stand on this since Shawn has been around another 7 or so years)?

[Jingus]

Stan Hansen or Vader?

Ooooh, you devious fuck.

 

I honestly don't know. Hansen had a much longer prime, and was still having classics with Baba's boys past the same age where Vader had faded away into obese obscurity. But Vader was a better carrier; I can't imagine Stan getting the same matches out of, say, a man called Sting like the ones Vader did. But as great as Vader's best stuff was, I don't think I've ever seen him do anything I loved quite as much as Hansen's best matches with Kobashi.

 

I honestly can't decide. Maybe I'll go watch some of their matches and report back later.

 

Eddy Guerrero or Rey Mysterio?

Tough call, but I'm going with Eddy here. He could do damn near everything Rey could, aside from the very craziest of bumps and dives. But he also had a much wider range of stuff he was very good at. He was better in bloody brawls than Rey, better mat wrestler, better talker, better Sportz Entertainer both in the modern sense and in old-school goofy stooging. Also, while Rey might be slightly better as the sympathetic babyface, the few times he was a heel he was never any good at it.

 

Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels (an oldie, but I'm curious where people stand on this since Shawn has been around another 7 or so years)?

I'm still an HBK mark, dammit. Bret was very good; in fact, I probably like my favorite Bret match (vs Owen at Mania) better than any single bout that Shawn ever had. But Bret would go through plenty of down periods where he'd get stuck in a rut and was just going through the motions. By-The-Numbers Bret Hart was still better than the majority of wrestlers out there, admittedly. However I don't think Shawn ever really had the same problem. Sure he caused more backstage havoc, and it's disheartening to still run into people who will dog his ringwork because of the power plays and tantrums that the Klique threw back in the day. In a discussion of in-ring skills, should that even matter? Michaels is one of the few guys in the WWE who seemed like he was determined to go out and have the best match on the show, every single night. One might disagree with his philosophy of what a "great match" is (the number of people I've seen who will claim that he is a flat-out bad worker is mindboggling, COUGHwkoCOUGH) but there should be no denial of the nearly superhuman effort he puts into it. For those of us who enjoy the HBK formula, such as myself, it's always a pleasure. Well. Almost always. Sometimes he'll run into a Chris Masters or a Kozlov and be just as stymied as everyone else, but nobody's perfect.

[1004Holds]

Stan Hansen or Vader?

 

Eddy Guerrero or Rey Mysterio?

 

Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels (an oldie, but I'm curious where people stand on this since Shawn has been around another 7 or so years)?

I can't answer the first one, but I can say that Eddy and Bret were better in both comparisions. Rey is a talented wrestler and a great babyface, but he never had the versatility that Eddy did. Eddy could work any style, whether it was brawling, technical, high-flying, or anything else (not sure about shoot-style), and it never came off as odd or awkward. He would constantly destroy Rey on the mic and was so charismatic that even when he was threatening Rey's wife and kid he'd still get cheered.

 

I'm not a huge fan of Bret or Shawn, but from childhood onwards I always thought Bret was the better of the two. Bret could get repetitive especially near the end of his career but one thing I always liked about him is that he would go out of his way to make his opponent look great in the ring. He would never overshadow them like Michaels often did. When Bret fought a guy like Nash, he would take on a different strategy than if he was fighting Bulldog or Austin. Michaels seemed more concerned with showing off his surprisingly average high-flying (I always preferred guys like 2 Cold Scorpio and El Hijo del Santo growing up) even if it didn't make any sense and even if it ended up making his opponent look like an idiot (ex. his matches with Vader). Bret was more convincing in his character; I could see him being champion in a way that I could never see Michaels doing. The way he carried himself in the ring despite wearing pink was awesome and was oftentimes one of the few good things WWF had going at the time. When I saw Michaels as WWF champion, the first thing that came to mind at the age of 7 was "That's the best they can do? LOL HOW SAD." I would see this dude stripping and wondering why in the hell he was doing that. For the record, I'm a woman and I never found HBK to be attractive (not my type I'm afraid). On the mic both guys were good but inconsistent but Bret seemed to be way better at cutting promos that made you think "Yeah, this guy's for real." With HBK, what I generally thought was "OOH DISS" or "Well, they had to give time to the cokehead." Both I'm sure have engaged in backstage nonsense, but at least Bret's never ended up affecting what I saw on TV. Whenever HBK politicked it was like some Lex Luthor BS except he would always fail which made him look like a complete moron. I mean, Hogan at least succeeded when he lied and manipulated.

[Loss]

I'm just curious what the majority opinion is:

 

KENTA or Marufuji?