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Who Is Better?


Dylan Waco

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Booking wise I would probablly say the peak was the Chris Kreski era (between Russo and Stephanie, covering most of 2000). Plenty of good wrestling and the non-wrestling stuff was generally solid, with the best continuity in company history (Kreski was known for doing extensive storyboarding and continuity charting). That or the best of the initial boom period, maybe.

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As for judging one babyface against another, Tito was a Ricky Steamboat type face, Bret was a wannabe Gretsky who thought he was a role model and Rey Mysterio has been an underdog. How do you compare the three? There's not a lot of common ground there.

I'm not sure if I understand your point. Comparing guys working in different environements is what people do all the time. If you voted in the SC Greatest Wrestler poll, which I believe you did, you had to engage in ranking different wrestlers working different styles and working different promotions. So if you indeed sent in a ballot, you're contradicting yourself here.

 

I didn't vote based on who the better babyface was, I simply voted for what I thought the best matches were. That was a matches poll, not a workers poll. If someone says Rey Mysterio Jr. is the greatest WWE babyface worker ever and another guy reckons it's Tito Santana, that would actually make for a pretty cool argument, but I don't think it's as simple as listing matches.

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Here's a question I'm wondering...

 

 

 

Whenever I speak to casual fans, they talk about missing the "way it used to be (Attitude Era)"... to me, the rose-tinted glasses theory applies here, as wrestling (or anything, for that matter) is remembered more fondly by memory of your youth. Granted it was more "cutting edge" and that was the appeal in the late 90's, but would you consider it a well-booked promotion?

Absolutely. They elevated a new crop of main eventers, made the best use of the talent they had available at the time, wrote engaging feuds (Austin-McMahon, DX-Nation) and built to PPV main events that people paid to see. It wasn't a great time for in-ring, but they did everything business-wise that a booking team should do.

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My favorite talking point on the net during this time was that Rey's decline in workrate came from hanging around Kevin Nash too much. IIRC, around this time Rey/Konnan/Nash and some others took a trip to Mexico and Rey returned bloated and kind of out of shape. Yes Kevin Nash can mess with your workrate via osmosis

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My favorite talking point on the net during this time was that Rey's decline in workrate came from hanging around Kevin Nash too much. IIRC, around this time Rey/Konnan/Nash and some others took a trip to Mexico and Rey returned bloated and kind of out of shape. Yes Kevin Nash can mess with your workrate via osmosis

I'm not saying Kevin Nash and Konnan destroyed Rey Mysterio's workrate but the idea/concept behind it is more than valid. Your peers and your enviornment around you do shape you way more so than anyone really knows and/or accepts. Both positive and negative. We've seen it many times in different organizations. You bring in some hard working, enthusiastic positive thinking wrestlers/bookers and your entire product will be elevated. It translates to other people. This is fact. You bring in some lazy, negative thinking, wrestlers and that translates to other people. That is a fact as well.

 

You take the same person and have him surrounded by one positive environment and than in a parraled dimension have him surrounded by a negative enviornment. There will be a signifigant difference within that person even though he has the same genetic structure.

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That's right. Remember what happened to TAKA Michinoku when he went to WWF? He learned that hard and good in-ring work is not necessary. He was never the same after that.

a) It's not necessary

 

and

 

B) I really wouldn't hold up TAKA as an example of much anything since he hardly carved out a huge niche for himself by not working as hard as he had in years past. I doubt seriously he learned any such lesson working for Vince, and I'm not a big fan of the in ring product of that time.

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I wasn't talking about the past few years. I was talking about the fact that when TAKA Michinoku went to WWF, it was a drastic change for his work. So, I actually do think that his time in WWF had that negative effect on his work. TAKA's peak was 1996/1997, in my opinion. When he went to WWF, he seemingly became more concerned about showing up with an Austin 3:16 shirt and giving people the bird than to be the TAKA we knew. And that's when he slowly started to decline. He may have recovered from it in more recent years, but around 1998 it sure was disappointing to see the impact his WWF run was having on his work.

 

A better example is probably Shoichi Funaki. I mean, WWE Funaki sure isn't Funaki at his best.

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Here's a question I'm wondering...

 

 

 

Whenever I speak to casual fans, they talk about missing the "way it used to be (Attitude Era)"... to me, the rose-tinted glasses theory applies here, as wrestling (or anything, for that matter) is remembered more fondly by memory of your youth. Granted it was more "cutting edge" and that was the appeal in the late 90's, but would you consider it a well-booked promotion?

Absolutely. They elevated a new crop of main eventers, made the best use of the talent they had available at the time, wrote engaging feuds (Austin-McMahon, DX-Nation) and built to PPV main events that people paid to see. It wasn't a great time for in-ring, but they did everything business-wise that a booking team should do.

 

In 2000? Besdies WM2000 there were a LOT of awesome matches during that period.

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As for judging one babyface against another, Tito was a Ricky Steamboat type face, Bret was a wannabe Gretsky who thought he was a role model and Rey Mysterio has been an underdog. How do you compare the three? There's not a lot of common ground there.

I'm not sure if I understand your point. Comparing guys working in different environements is what people do all the time. If you voted in the SC Greatest Wrestler poll, which I believe you did, you had to engage in ranking different wrestlers working different styles and working different promotions. So if you indeed sent in a ballot, you're contradicting yourself here.

 

I didn't vote based on who the better babyface was, I simply voted for what I thought the best matches were. That was a matches poll, not a workers poll. If someone says Rey Mysterio Jr. is the greatest WWE babyface worker ever and another guy reckons it's Tito Santana, that would actually make for a pretty cool argument, but I don't think it's as simple as listing matches.

 

I was referring to the Greatest Wrestler Ever (or something like that) poll on the old SC board, not the Best WWF/E and WCW matches polls that have taken place in the last 2 years.

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To me the heart of the attitude era was 98 to 99. They were easily my worse 2 years for WWF/WWE wrestling matches. Once 2000 hit the in ring product became a lot more enjoyable once the new blood came in and everyone upped their game. The attitude era was still strong though. Lots of attitude silliness still abound and even though the in ring product was better it still took forever before we could have a TV match that was over 12 mins in ring time. I think it was Jericho/Benoit vs HHH/Austin in 2001 that broke that streak.

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Here's a question I'm wondering...

 

 

 

Whenever I speak to casual fans, they talk about missing the "way it used to be (Attitude Era)"... to me, the rose-tinted glasses theory applies here, as wrestling (or anything, for that matter) is remembered more fondly by memory of your youth. Granted it was more "cutting edge" and that was the appeal in the late 90's, but would you consider it a well-booked promotion?

Absolutely. They elevated a new crop of main eventers, made the best use of the talent they had available at the time, wrote engaging feuds (Austin-McMahon, DX-Nation) and built to PPV main events that people paid to see. It wasn't a great time for in-ring, but they did everything business-wise that a booking team should do.

 

In 2000? Besdies WM2000 there were a LOT of awesome matches during that period.

 

I was thinking more 98-99ish.

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Guest Kenta Batista

So how 'bout it? Mysterio, Santana, or Steamboat. Best all time babyface.

 

For me its hard to rate this without commenting on their work as the ring in product is just as important (if not more) for a babyface then promos. Hogan did some things during his face run that caused boos and eventually the fans turned on him at the close of his WWF run in the early 90's(The WMIX and RR 92 being the most infamous). I think Mysterio has the other two beat because of the mask and his size. Merch is 'cool'. Everyone wants to own a piece of their favorite superstar. Mysterio's mask is such a huge trademark and a big part of his persona that when a child wears that mask their connection to Mysterio is THAT much stronger. A t-shirt is cool and all, but to wear an item that your favorite wrestler ACTUALLY wears to the ring (Bret Hart's glasses spring to mind). Santana and Steamboat just did not have the merch or THAT SIGNATURE feature of their wardrobe that the average kid could own.

 

Mysterio's size also helps him in this area. Seeing Santana and Andre go in the ring is the classic story of good vs. evil. David vs. Goliath, etc. However at the end of the day Santana and Steamboat are both full grown men and look 'normal' and by association people will conclude they lived an easy or relatively normal life. Mysterio, because he is so small, people can create their own 'adversity' stories attached to him (whether fictional or otherwise).

 

I think after while Santana and Steamboat's acts got stale and a bit campy. I can't look at some of Santana's or Steamboat's older worker without rolling my eyes. Mysterio still looks good and believable.

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I think Ricky Steamboat is the best babyface. One of the reasons is that I think it's almost impossible to imagine him as a heel. He never worked as a heel and he was always the good guy who was loved by the fans. He dedicated his quest for the world heavyweight title to his son and he is a real family man. He is just a great old school type babyface. Back in those days, you didn't have to be "cool" and have "attitude" to be babyface. And when it came to his promos and interviews, there was just something about the way he talked that made you believe he was truly a good guy. Also, I think the way he sold in his matches helped him to win even more sympathy from the crowd.

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I was referring to the Greatest Wrestler Ever (or something like that) poll on the old SC board, not the Best WWF/E and WCW matches polls that have taken place in the last 2 years.

Sorry, didn't read your post properly.

 

I'm not sure that the Greatest Wrestlers Ever poll was all that impartial, but certainly "characterisation" can be used as a means of judging workers. I'd still argue, however, that you need to find some common ground. If you simply prefer Tito's work or Bret's characterisation, that's fine from your own point-of-view, but it's not really enough if you want to make a case for Tito & Bret > Rey.

 

To be honest, I'm not really sure who I think is the better babyface out of those three, but if I were to think about it, first I'd have to wipe out all of my biases. Then I'd try to ignore the booking and the different positions those workers were in, and try to find something they all in common.

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I think after while Santana and Steamboat's acts got stale and a bit campy. I can't look at some of Santana's or Steamboat's older worker without rolling my eyes. Mysterio still looks good and believable.

Steamboat was pretty good at getting fired up. His WCW run from '91 to '94 is full of asskicking performances. The most cringeworthy thing I can remember Rey doing was that promo they made him do after Hogan turned heel.

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He dedicated his quest for the world heavyweight title to his son and he is a real family man. He is just a great old school type babyface. Back in those days, you didn't have to be "cool" and have "attitude" to be babyface.

This isn't really a good example to point to given that Ric Flair was getting babyface pops for his digs at Steamboat's family values like "Why don't you go home and wash the dishes?". I suppose it's a testament to his stellar in ring ability that he could overcome such an outdated, out of touch gimmick though.

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That's true what you said about Ric Flair, but Flair always got a lot of babyface pops anyway (regardless of him being a heel or face).

 

While on the subject of the best babyfaces... one of my favourite WWF babyface runs was Bret Hart's 1994 run as WWF champion and the build-up of that run (starting at Royal Rumble 1994). He was really like a hero to the kids at the time. And Bret really wanting to be that hero and believing that he was that hero helped a lot in him succeeding in that role.

 

Tito Santana was a very good babyface, but I think he wasn't the very best babyface and he wasn't always that over (especially towards the end of his WWF run when he received a lower push) and I think that a lot of the babyface reactions he got probably were more due to him facing heels that were over than him being over as a babyface (although he was definitely quite over as a babyface at a lot of times). Still, he was a very good babyface.

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Here's a question -- has there ever been a better Japanese pro-wrestler than Fujiwara?

Not many... Yoshiaki Fujiwara is one of the 10 greatest Japanese pro wrestlers ever, in my opinion. I can think of only 9 who have possibly been better... Jushin Liger, Akira Hokuto, Jaguar Yokota, Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada, Jumbo Tsuruta, Hiroshi Hase, Genichiro Tenryu, and Kenta Kobashi.

 

 

El Hijo del Santo or Negro Casas?

Negro Casas. He is possibly the greatest Mexican wrestler that ever lived, along with Eddy Guerrero. Negro Casas has such a tremendously long career of greatness. But El Hijo del Santo is defintely an all-time great and also one of the top 5 greatest Mexican wrestlers ever.

 

 

Barry Windham or Arn Anderson?

Barry Windham had a better peak, I love his work from 1986-1989. But Arn Anderson had a better overall career... so, I think it's Arn Anderson who wins.

 

 

Marty Jones or Dynamite Kid?

Dynamite Kid. He was awesome. Marty Jones, who is one of the 5 greatest British workers ever, was arguably technically better when it comes to the "British style" you see on the World of Sports shows. But Dynamite Kid made an impact in pro wrestling that very few have ever made. He was such an influential worker. There have been so many people who looked up to him and were influenced by his work, people like Jushin Liger, Chris Benoit, Bret Hart, Owen Hart etc. Dynamite Kid's series of matches with Satoru Sayama still is one of the most important feuds in pro wrestling history.
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I think Negro Casas is the greatest wrestler of all time - not just in Mexico, but anywhere. Santo is close but Casas is another level to just about anyone in perfectly playing his role whatver situation he is in and such a captivating performer. Whether rudo or technico, trios schtick or trios brawl, title matches, hair/mask matches, feuding with Santo, Dandy, or even Tarzan Boy; he is just the perfect pro wrestler. Such a shame that there is so little footage available of him pre-92 and his arrival in EMLL, since he'd been a pro for about 15 years at that point and all we have is less than ten matches total (and reports that he was stealing the show as far back as 1980..) And he's been consistently great all that time, even now.

 

Prefer Arn to Barry - Arn was the perfect TV wrestler, great as a tough guy or a stooge, singles or tag, title match or tag match or a brawl or a multi-man match. I know he's most known as a tag wrestler and/or Horseman but I think his best work was from 90 to 93. Put him in any kind of match on TV, with or without partners, and he'd deliver great TV matches. Not necessarily 'classics' but solid, entertaining, reliable and sometimes great matches where he would play the clown and the strategic badass. Just give him 7,10,15 minutes to do his thing and he would deliver. Those matches are just as or even more important than the epic classics since those are (or were) the bread and butter wrestling matches week-in and week-out and Arn was the perfect wrestler on that stage, the kind of guy you want on any roster. Has their ever been a better TV wrestler in the US as far as being a versatile, reliable wrestler who could always be counted on to deliver in shorter television main events?

 

Don't care much for Dynamite and not seen too much of Marty Jones (Jim Breaks would be by far my favourite British wrestler) and it's been a long time since I cared about anyone in Japanese wrestling.

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