Who Is Better?

[Dylan Waco]

I don't know if I would hold up those Cactus matches as anything more than super entertaining ass beatings. I actually think the Havoc match is a really BAD match to point to if you are pushing Vader over Blackwell as Blackwell has the Death Match with Mad Dog right there and well...Foley had a lot more to offer at that point than Dog did and I honestly can't see any argument for the Vader/Foley match being better. I don't hate the match, but I actually think it is disappointing. Blackwell v. Mad Dog is a "holy fuck I can't believe this is this good" match when you consider the limitations of Dog at that point.

 

I wouldn't argue too much against any of the other particulars, I just don't think that series is really a super strong point for Vader's career, particularly in a comparison with Blackwell

[Dylan Waco]

Patera v. Muraco

 

I have the exact opposite view of Johnny and think Patera smokes Muraco, to the point of lapping him a few times. To my mind Muraco has proven to be one of the most overrated guys in wrestling history. A guy who could show up and have a great match here or there but by and large was pretty uninteresting in the ring, if not boring. I liked aspect of his character a lot and can certainly see how someone would prefer him as a personality to Patera, but bell-to-bell I really don't see an argument for Muraco as even post-prime Patera - while pretty bad for the most part - was not as bad as post-prime/lazy Muraco.

 

Going a bit further I don't think Patera was a heat leach. In fact I know he wasn't. I don't think Muraco was ever even close as over as a heel in the WWF as Patera was during his prime periods feuding with Bruno, Backlund and Morales. I can't envision Muraco carrying guys like Atlas or Morales the way Patera did and while it is possible Muraco's best match is better than Patera's, I don't see the volume of quality matches there.

 

For years the theory on Patera even among his supporters was sort of that he had one great year and that was that. Well his 1980 was pretty fucking great, but his AWA run that followed that was really good too even if he was a clear "second" to Blackwell as the worker in the Sheiks. The glimpses we have pre-80 show a guy who had fundamental talent, could work a crowd, was a good stooging bumper and had very good heel timing.

 

I don't think either guy is really a top class worker, though Patera had at least one year in that category and I don't think Muraco ever did.

[Dylan Waco]

I will have more to say about Bock and Flair over the next couple of days (and even weeks probably) but I do want to say that it's a misnomer to say we don't have Bock as traveling champ as we have available matches with him in Stampede (v. Bret, really fun studio match v. Schultz), in Japan, in Texas and v. Lawler in Memphis which was a running feud similar to Kerry v. Flair, with matches of comparable quality.

 

What we do lack (besides prime Bock) is as much Bock in the studio stuff. It's not that it's not there and the glimpses are great, but you'd really like to have more for a comparison like this.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Dylan, The Snuka/ Muraco feud had people my age at the time wanting to see Muraco killed. It was one of THE most heated feuds ever. Teenage boys in the NorthEast worshiped Snuka and wanted to see him eat Muraco's entrails. That's why the end of the cage match stinks so much.

 

And I know Bock traveled, but not like Flair who had to wrestle so many stiffs as a touring NWA Champ.

[Dylan Waco]

My point is that Bock toured a lot more than people remember or than the popular myth around the AWA v. the NWA would suggest. There probably aren't THAT many more Flair v. challengers in other places matches than Bock v. challengers in other places matches on tape (there are a lot more, but not by the magnitude often suggested). We just know more about Flair's history.

 

I know Snuka/Muraco was a big feud.

 

But Patera/Bruno was a huge feud that drew more money and got huge responses. So did Patera/Backlund. The Patera/Billy White Wolf angle is still remembered as one of the most vicious/nasty angles of that era and fast tracked him to a PWI Most Hated Award - something he won twice, finishing in the top three two other times. Muraco finished as a runner up for that award once - in 81. The winner? Ken Patera.

[Johnny Sorrow]

PWI? Come on, bro. I loves me some Patera, but the draws there are Bruno and Backlund with Patera being a part of it cause he wasn't a fat typical WWWF heel.

 

Muraco was so fucking hated it was insane. I liked him and wouldn't say so to my pals cause they loved Snuka so much they'd have kicked my ass.

[Dylan Waco]

Actually PWI is a remarkably good indicator of who the top stars were during that period ESPECIALLY in New York. It would be wrong to ascribe some scientific value to them (or any other wrestling accolade really), but it would also be wrong to dismiss them as "lol kayfabe lol."

 

But I would tend to agree that they should be seen as secondary....to the fact that Patera was booked and promoted in a position where he was clearly seen as the bigger/better heel by the office.

[Johnny Sorrow]

And The Magnificent Muraco did this

 

 

and this

 

 

I can't find the promo where Backlund has just lost the belt, does a heartfelt interview with Mean Gene where he's crying...he leaves, Muraco and Albano walk in and start going "BOOO HOOO! BOO HOOO! WAH! WAH!"

 

It was glorious.

 

He's the greatest heel ever.

[Dylan Waco]

PWI? Come on, bro. I loves me some Patera, but the draws there are Bruno and Backlund with Patera being a part of it cause he wasn't a fat typical WWWF heel.

 

Muraco was so fucking hated it was insane. I liked him and wouldn't say so to my pals cause they loved Snuka so much they'd have kicked my ass.

 

I'm not arguing Patera was the draw over Bruno or Backlund. I'm arguing that Patera got shots against Bruno and Backlund (actually multiple runs against both) because he proved to be extremely effective against them and the office saw him as a money making challenger. That's not surprising since virtually every office in the country and Canada thought that way about Patera from 72-85 which explains why he also got main event feuds and programs for in the AWA, Tri-State, Memphis, Georgia, MACW, Montreal, Toronto, Hawaii and Dallas.

 

Also I'm not arguing Muraco wasn't hated and it's even theoretically possible he got more visceral reactions than Patera did at his peak (though I have never seen him touch off a near riot like I have seen Patera do v. Steamboat in MACW...). But I don't remember an angle he was involved in getting over like the White Wolf angle did or the Watts angle in Tri-State for that matter. He was almost certainly a "cooler" heel than Patera ever was, but that doesn't make me more over and it certainly doesn't mean he was a bigger money maker or had more of an impact on the business.

 

Finally if we are reducing things down to "Bruno and Bob were the draws" than the same argument applies to Snuka and Muraco was just a guy filling a slot. I don't buy that in the case of Muraco or Patera.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Muraco wasn't a cool heel. I was just a weird kid.

[Matt D]

Dylan,

 

Can you elaborate on your "input-output" classification. Is it just a footage issue or is it the "great matches vs analyzed ringwork" argument.

[Dylan Waco]

That second thing you said. Kinda

[Dylan Waco]

Hey Matt, you don't have to pick a fav, but I bumped this in part so you could make a lengthy post about Bock v. Flair without having start a thread solely for that purpose.

[Matt D]

I'd like to see some of the Bock babyface work before I say too much. I also realize I've been fed mostly top notch Bock stuff and not the dregs. But I can give a preview of sorts of that eventual longer post, with but a few examples now and more later. This is going to be completely through my filter of watching wrestling, which judging from the comments I've seen is wildly different from a lot of you. I care way more about what wrestlers do and why they do them and how they do them and range and being able to go into a match and take a random minute stretch and see if it makes sense, and whether or not they do things for the sake of doing them or if they make sense in the context of a match. I care way more about what a wrestler does than if he has great matches.

 

I will say this. I've already seen a variety in Bock that I can't say I've seen in Flair, more versatility in heel Bock than heel Flair. He plays a LOT of different roles, but they're all believable and all him. He is a very character driven wrestler. I also feel like there is far more thought to what Bock does in the ring than Flair. Flair definitely has a few different matches (the studio one vs the up and comer, for instance), and a lot of those, I've seen Bock do as well, very well. I think so many of the Bock matches on the AWA set have felt very different. When we hit the JCP set, will that be the case for Flair?

 

They're both very good at working a hold and working from the bottom of a hold, making it entertaining. Both have GREAT facial expressions. Both interact with the crowd very well. Bock for instance sold the Weasel chants in a way I've never seen a Heenan charge do, and the use of the boring chant is one of the most brilliant things I've ever seen in wrestling. It's just an awareness. He knows what's going on. He knows how to maximize the moment.

 

Bock often does this whole body selling as a match goes on, which i like way more than Flair's late match getting-his-stuff-in. I think Bock is better at foreshadowing and building things in matches and between matches.

 

Flair has the legwork to build to the figure four which is a nice built in piece of a match that will make sense every time out, and he's good at it, but Bock switches things up a lot more. A good chunk of his matches have the KOTM spot, but it's usually done very logically and early enough in the match that it isn't just lazy. That he can use so obtuse an element in logical and heated ways is actually sort of impressive.

 

So far, Bock has shown some really great sense of tag work and timing, but I haven't seen enough Flair tags lately.

 

Flair might be a bit above in the energy and manic bumping, but Bock is pretty good at that too. Flair wins on "ACTION" but Bock holds up way better than his reputation would say.

 

I don't know, Dylan. You've seen a lot more of both guys than I have (though I've seen a lot of Flair in my life). What do you think Flair does better?

 

EDIT: Earlier in the note Tim L said that the big problem in comparison was that we didn't have a ton of footage of Bock in his prime, but I'm talking about what I've seen of Bock in the 80s. I'm comparing 80s Bock vs 80s Flair and there's a lot with Bock that I like more.

 

EDIT #2: I'm also mainly looking from an in ring standpoint, not about drawing or about "Being the champ." Overall presence. WON HOF PLACEMENT, or whatever. I'm looking at the matches i've seen, though I admit I only have the high end stuff from the AWA set to look at, but there's SO much you can learn about Bock from those matches, so much.

[Dylan Waco]

Flair is clearly above Bock in "energy" and "manic bumping" though you could argue those as negative traits at times.

 

During his prime and even big chunks of his post-prime he rarely had boring matches. I did not think AWA Bock had many boring matches to be honest but that was a criticism of him for years and the guys who watched for the AJPW Set have told me he was very boring at times there.

 

Flair's big bumps - while more cartoony - were generally higher impact which was a good fit for the guys he was often paired off with (Sting, Luger, Barry, et). No way in hell Bock was a bad bumper or even "worse" than Flair, but Flair style of big bumps was a good fit for the guys he was working.

 

I think Flair is a better face than Bock. That's not to say Bock is a bad face - he's not. In fact watching the stuff now he's better than I remembered in many respects. But I think Flair was better at drawing out sympathy than Bock, at least on his best days. Part of this may be that Flair was always "our guy" to a certain segment of fans, but then it's possible AWA fans felt the same way about Bock. Anyhow it's hard to explain, but I feel like Flair emotes better as a face than Bock. To be fair the face Bock we have is generally performing in front of smaller crowds and his "conquering hero" reaction at Wrestlerock was pretty great, but still I would put Flair over him.

 

I think Flair at his best got more interesting stuff in to the early portions of matches that built and went longer, but again I am going on a limited sampling of Bock by comparison and who knows what Bock was like in his physical prime.

 

I like Flair as a garbage match wrestler and think his second career as American Onita was actually really good, but you can't really hold that against Bock.

[Matt D]

That's not super convincing. I'll be able to talk about the face stuff later, and might try to see some of his AJPW work. I've really liked most of the early match Bock stuff I've seen (like i go nuts for the Bock/Brunzel test of strength, nuts), but I also really love Flair's early match work. I think they're both great at it. To me, Bock's might be a bit more inventive but that might just be a lack of familiarity.

 

I definitely think you can't short change the energy Bock brings to the Verne stadium match. His bursts of speed are very striking. I just saw him run from Greg Gagne with a chair in an 85 post-match and it was just this wild flash of motion. And there's the Wahoo match, sure. But no, he doesn't bump like Flair. But he still bumps both big and in a number of varied ways.

 

I certainly haven't been bored by the Bock I've seen.

 

Can you talk a little about Flair as a tag worker since that's been a surprisingly impressive element of Bock's work?

[Dylan Waco]

I don't know there is a lot to say about Flair as a tag worker. Flair's "prime" as a tag worker is an era we don't have much footage of.

[Matt D]

Which is wildly frustrating because who he was teaming with and who they were wrestling. But wouldn't Bock's prime as a tag wrestler be earlier than what we have too. There have to be a ton of Flair TV tag matches. I do think we could learn a ton from Flair/Batista tag fancams if they exist.

 

edit: It's late, and it's been a very tiring oh, seven weeks here, so I'm blanking, BUT, is there a heel Flair match like the Bock/Martel match where they both spend the back half of the match engrossed in bodypart selling? Bock would often remember to sell after coming back on offense for a little bit, but that was a match very much built with long-term selling in mind. I can't think of too many heel Flair matches like that right now (But again, I'm tired).

[Dylan Waco]

We can't learn anything from Flair/Batista if you are interested in comparing their strengths. Flair was the worse wrestler on Earth during that period

[Matt D]

We can't learn anything from Flair/Batista if you are interested in comparing their strengths. Flair was the worse wrestler on Earth during that period

Generally, that's a role where aging former aces could really show their strength, though. Putting matches together, utilizing the bigger guy, controlling the heat, protecting yourself and minimizing your physical limitations, etc. You almost have to try to screw it up, or show a total lack of understanding of how wrestling works. Was he really that bad in the role?

[Dylan Waco]

I don't think that's the role Flair played.

 

Flair was dogshit during that period. Evolution Flair is one of my least favorite wrestlers ever, blowing his signature spots all the time, regularly calling spots on camera, limited offense even more limited than any period before, et. He was absolutely awful on every level.

 

I can't think of Flair long term selling matches, but I'm positive they exist. I just haven't watched a ton of Flair recently like I have with Bock

[Matt D]

I just don't get how logically he'd be in any other spot during their tag run. It's mind boggling. I lived through it but I'm going to have to go back and see just to sate my curiosity now.

 

As for the rest, we're in the same boat, apparently. I'm pretty positive they do too, but none come to mind.

[FLIK]

Earlier in the thread, the talking point about how Vader matches were pretty by the numbers and what not got me thinking about what other matches Vader could possibly have with people that weren't your typical monster vs. babyface with hot comebacks and it's tough to see him having any other type of match, regardless of style or promotion. Blackwell might have been a nuttier bumper, but Vader was a GREAT seller. He was a big fat dude, but was only about 6'3", meaning that taller guys (think Sting, Dustin, etc.) could stand toe-to-toe to him and look like they're legitimately making things difficult for someone who outweighs him by about 200 lbs. And once Vader went down, the crowd bought it as something immense that he was taken off his feet. Interestingly enough, nobody props up Cactus next to Vader for his best opponent, and while the Sting matches are truly great, his match with Jack at Havoc '93 might be one of the craziest brawls I've ever seen, and Vader selling all the nutty stuff that Jack tries to throw at him is something to watch.

 

Blackwell was so unique that you had the ability to put him in different spots and let his versatility show, but with someone like Vader, you really couldn't put him in any other spot than "monster heel". That being said, he was so impressive as a heel that if he had ever turned face, I have little doubt that he would have been successful, but he was best working as a heel cutting people off with his power and being a bully. Blackwell works as an overweight wrestler with a more complete overall wrestling package, but Vader's overall package, while lacking the strengths that Blackwell has over him in versatility, bumping or what have you, is probably the best super heavyweight heel ever due to his presence and his ability to make a seemingly tired traditional wrestling matchup and make things interesting no matter who he faced. I'm glad Blackwell is being seen as a top flight wrestler, but Vader still has the advantage over him in the long haul.

 

Keeping on the comparisons, I'm really surprised this one hasn't been brought up yet: Vader or Aja Kong?

Vader vs Aja isn't that natural of a comparison to me, Bull Nakano was much more the female Vader and a better one at that, especially for her 90 - 92 run.

 

Back to Aja tho and going back to the point re versatility, she def has Vader beat in that area. As a pure monster heel comparison Vader is prob better at that specific role but Aja was great in a wide variety of situations (heel, face, sympathetic underdog, dominating monster, hardcore brawling, sprint style, stiff slugfest, technical, comedy, as a rookie & up & commer or as a vet) and overall career vs career i'd put her over him.

[Jingus]

Flair was dogshit during that period. Evolution Flair is one of my least favorite wrestlers ever, blowing his signature spots all the time, regularly calling spots on camera, limited offense even more limited than any period before, et. He was absolutely awful on every level.

All true, but he did occasionally have exceptions. Remember the shockingly good match he had with Angle on Raw in 2005? Flair dusted off at least a dozen ancient-school cheating tactics, stuff like fishhooking the mouth or distracting the ref before nailing a low blow or various other stuff which guys in WWE simply never do. For one night, he really did look like the dirtiest player in the game instead of a melting wax sculpture who chops a lot. Angle held up his end too, his control segments were accomplished via suplexes or amateur mat stuff, so it wasn't just "we'll both take a hundred bumps and then do anklelock/figure-four reversals for the last five minutes" like you might fear it would be.

[Dylan Waco]

Flair in 05 was post Evolution. That was from early on in his "American Onita" run which I liked.