Loss Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 I see the point, smkelly, and I think we can all agree that there were tons of talented juniors during this time period. But honestly, if we're talking about the early 90s, I don't think Eddy Guerrero really hit his potential in New Japan until 1996. He was awesome in other places, but his New Japan tours felt flat to me for a long time. I agree that Samurai was never the guy people bought tapes to see. As I said, he was a utility player. But my point is that he's worth a revisit and hasn't gotten the praise he has deserved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 I never thought Eddie Guerrero as Black Tiger was that great really. He had a good run in the junior tag league in 93 but other than that I can't really name you anything memorable he did under the mask. I don't think Dean Malenko was that great in any of his Japanese tours that I've seen. I disagree slightly on Samurai though. I've never bought a tape or DVD solely for an El Samurai match but I think an El Samurai match could sway a decision to buy or not buy something I was borderline on. He does deserve more credit though. A lot of the higher praised guys have fallen to the wayside in relatively quick fashion and El Samurai keeps putting on quality work a decade after the fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 I have Eddy/Benoit BOSJ 96 as my #1 NJ Jr MOTD. I've spoken as to why in the yearbook thread and elsewhere. I think you're a bit harsh on him for the 92 Jr tournament, Loss, if only because it was his first tour, and he's spoken about how much he wanted to work Japan so he'd've been pretty nervous. And he wasn't nearly as near to his peak as Benoit was at that point (I'll be interested to see if you find the G1 Benoit/Liger as much a one-man show as I did last time). Overall, I've found most Eddy stuff from NJ holds up better than others', although he doesn't have the output of classics (then or now) as Benoit/Liger/etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 I see the point, smkelly, and I think we can all agree that there were tons of talented juniors during this time period. But honestly, if we're talking about the early 90s, I don't think Eddy Guerrero really hit his potential in New Japan until 1996. He was awesome in other places, but his New Japan tours felt flat to me for a long time. I agree that Samurai was never the guy people bought tapes to see. As I said, he was a utility player. But my point is that he's worth a revisit and hasn't gotten the praise he has deserved. I agree with this. I think Samurai and Dick Togo are the two 90's juniors most worth exploring in greater detail now that we are more detached from that era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 I haven't seen a Misawa/Kobashi singles match yet that really did anything for me. I liked the 3/96 match, but as John said, I wasn't enthusiastic about it. In fairness, I have only seen 1993 and 1996 matches they have had against each other. Loss, I'm really not that high on Misawa/Kobashi single matches either, but you definitely need to check out their 1/20/97 tc match yesterday! It's been a few years since I've watched it, but it's always been amongst the best single matches I've ever seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 The match, 1/20/97, it's on Ditch's site. I think he has all of their single matches minus the October '98 one on the site as well. What Lorefice had to say: 1/20/97: Osaka Furitsu Taiikukaikan, Triple Crown Heavyweight Title Match: Kenta Kobashi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa. Best Misawa/Kobashi match. Misawa wins Triple Crown ***** Triple Crown: Kobashi vs. Misawa ***** classic. Best singles match of 1997. Misawa vs. Kobashi 1/20/97, which is merely the best heavyweight singles match since Misawa vs. Kawada 6/3/94 10/21/97: Triple Crown: Misawa vs. Kobashi-This was named Match Of The Year by Tokyo Sports and by AJ. Tremendous match that was between the 2nd-4th best match of 1997! This match really shows the greatness and diversity of these two, as it had everything. All the elements that make the top AJ matches great, combined with the best high spots you'll see in a heavyweight match. Kobashi uses everything he can think of, including a dangerous released ½ nelson German suplex on the floor to debilitate Misawa's neck. Not as good as their 1/20 epic, but still a MUST SEE ***** match. 10/31/98: Tokyo Nippon Budokan Triple Crown: Kenta Kobashi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa. The best thing about Kobashi not being Misawa's partner, is that they totally have their stuff working opposite each other down pat. They delivered the best men's heavyweight match of 1996 on 3/31, the best men's heavyweight match of 1997 on 1/20, the 3rd best men's heavyweight match of 1997 on 10/21, and now, even with Misawa clearly not at 100%, they produced another awesome match which is probably the third best match of 1998. Most of the credit, as usual, goes to Misawa as he laid out a tremendous match that was more too the style of 1/20/97 than 10/21, which was a plus, IMO. Misawa's psychology was the best it's been this year. Kobashi is still a great worker, and overall he was at his 1998 best here, following Misawa's lead without getting goofy. Match followed the typical storyline of Misawa getting destroyed most of the match. It developed slowly because they were going so long, but the build and utilization of the spots was excellent. Kobashi attacks the neck, as a key is obviously whether he can deliver the inverted Death Valley bomb. Misawa's new Tigerdriver off the apron to the floor was the highlight. He didn't have anything substantial to say about the match on 6/11/99. I echo his statements about the above matches by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 1/20/97 hold special consideration for me because it was the 2nd puroresu match I watched and the first time I really "got" the style. When I rewatched all of the general top 25 consensous picks a few years ago, I had the match ranked #2 in the 1990's only behind 6/9/95. Just a great match that still holds up. 10/21/97 is another awesome match and only a notch behind the 1/20 match. 10/31/98 is a culmination of a shift into the head dropping style that has cemented heavyweight matches in All Japan and NOAH for the next ten years. It is a match where they went over the edge with the head- dropping but the match is still wonderful. I think I am higher on 6/11/99 than most as I feel it would have had a great shot at being a strong top 25 for the All Japan deccade. I really love the Kobashi/Misawa series and think the quality really kicks up after 1996. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 I like the older Misawa/Kobashi matches significantly less than their bouts in '97 through '99. What is the consensus there? I already know John's, but feel free to add anyway, man. I know you didn't ask... I like the 1/97 match. I think it's the best of their matches. Liked at the time the the 1997 Carny Final match between the two, but haven't watched it in more than a decade. Like the 10/97 less than probably anyone at the time. Didn't really hate it, but it didn't grab me. Bored/annoyed by the 1998 and 1999 matches. At the time... I liked the 1996 match. My Torch review was pretty positive of it. Really didn't like the 10/95 match. It really lost me down the stretch. I remember liking the Carny '95 match... another one I haven't watched in years. I didn't rate the 1993 Misawa-Kobashi as highly as Dave did, but I did enjoy it at the time. I much prefer Kobashi in that role, and 1993 in general, that most of his stuff after. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 I think one of the worst things I ever did online was to point out the Work Misawa's Neck concept, because lord did Mike run it into the ground for a couple of years. I think Frank eventually came up with Misawa By Numbers as a counter to it, especially after the Misawa-Jun and Misawa-Ace title matches drove him batty. Joh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 I've broken down/defended what and why I love about their 10/98 match countless times in the last few years and see no reason to regurgitate the argument. What hurts 6/99 the most (aside from the booking, ie; Kobashi had to go over but really couldn't) is they don't find a way to level it up before the stretch. Kobashi dominates as he did in October, as he would in their NOAH match, but not wanting to re-tell their match entirely from eight months before (I presume...) there isn't any big spot where you buy that Kobashi is now as fucked as Misawa. He has to sell down the stretch but it feels forced because all he's taken as notable transition spots are the caught right kick/left kick that was a standard move at best and the rana into the guardrail which looked neither good nor brutal. Once the TD '91 comes out, OK, fair enough, but he's already been selling equal for a while at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 I dislike the NJ junior style immensely. But I watched Liger/Samurai recently, and it holds up really well. With that said, Bret takes it in a walk. Also, let me echo everyone else's comments about 1/20/97 being an absolute must-see. It's my all-time favorite singles match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 I watched Liger/Samurai recently, and it holds up really well. If you mean the '92 TOSJ Final, Loss needs your support over in the Yearbook thread. *** And I know Loss said he hasn't seen it yet but why do people feel the need to pimp Misawa/Kobashi 1/97? If you've heard of '90s All Japan you know of that match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 Because our faithful admin who watches a ton of wrestling hasn't seen it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 I watched Liger/Samurai recently, and it holds up really well. If you mean the '92 TOSJ Final, Loss needs your support over in the Yearbook thread. Yeah, that's the one I'm talking about. Just checked out the thread. Kind of surprised to see it take the beating it is. I'll rewatch the match tomorrow and post up. All this talk about 1/20/97 gives me an idea for a thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 Talking about Brad Amrstong has a guy perfect to make other people look good made me think of this one : Brad Armstrong or Barry Horowitz ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 Pretty much a no contest and I don't even like Armstrong. I think Brad vs. Sam Houston or Brad vs. WCW-era late Tommy Rich would be more interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 Well, you underrate Horowitz pretty hard then. I don't think I'd call Tommy Rich in 1990 a *good* worker by any stretch of the imagination. A few good puch, some good fire, but pretty horrific execution, dull offense... Just yikes. Pretty carryable by the right people though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Talking about Brad Amrstong has a guy perfect to make other people look good made me think of this one : Brad Armstrong or Barry Horowitz ? Armstrong I think was a better overall package. I don't think he's a no-brainer as Horowitz has a lot of merit though. Watching SMW, he pulls out a huge variety of moves on a weekly basis. I really don't like him as Jack Hart though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Some comparisons of current interest to me: Yoshiaki Yatsu or Kurt Angle? The Iron Sheik or Victor Zangiev? Kevin Greene or Hiroshi Wajima? Dino Bravo or Stevie Ray? Hiro Saito or Greg Valentine? The is a logic to these pairings, but I'll leave it to you to figure out my thinking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 The is a logic to these pairings, but I'll leave it to you to figure out my thinking Alright... let's give it a go. Yoshiaki Yatsu or Kurt Angle? Former national champs who hit a high peak early then fade. The Iron Sheik or Victor Zangiev? Olympians. Kevin Greene or Hiroshi Wajima? Stars from other sports who joined wrestling at an older age. Mongo would actually be a better comp for Wajima since he wrestled morethan Greene. Dino Bravo or Stevie Ray? Did I miss Stevie getting murdered? Hiro Saito or Greg Valentine? Mistaken belief that they're both second generation wrestlers. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Ha ha, pretty much there. I actually thought Wajimi's stint was brief which is why I went with Greene. The logic on Bravo vs. Stevie Ray is: "possibly worst wrestler ever" and nothing else. Logic on Saito / Valentine is that I think Saito looks a bit like a Japanese Valentine, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 It's funny to throw out as a question, but I do hope my loved ones will be kind enough to do an intervention if I ever start taking the time to think about who was better between Dino Bravo and Stevie Ray. I think I'd be forced to examine my life choices at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Ha ha. jdw - you did miss something though. Sheik / Zangiev is AS MUCH to do with their mustaches and funny faces as it is to do with their former ameuter careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted December 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Bravo is far better than Stevie Ray. Saito/Valentine is actually really tough and something I would have dwell on for a while Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 The logic on Bravo vs. Stevie Ray is: "possibly worst wrestler ever" and nothing else. Pre-WWF Bravo was a very good wrestler, and a legitimate star in Quebec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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