Who Is Better?

[Dylan Waco]

"But Vader was a better carrier; I can't imagine Stan getting the same matches out of, say, a man called Sting like the ones Vader did."

 

Having watched all of those matches in the last few months, I really can't see any argument for Vader being carrier in those matches. To be honest there are very few "big" Vader matches where I think you can make an argument he was carrying someone.

[Jingus]

When did Sting ever do anything like that with anyone else, though? The Vader/Sting matches were much more similar to Vader's other matches with different people than they were to Sting's other matches.

[Dylan Waco]

When did Sting ever do anything like that with anyone else, though? The Vader/Sting matches were much more similar to Vader's other matches with different people than they were to Sting's other matches.

Shawn Michaels match with Jeff Jarrett was more similar to Jarrett match than Shawn match. You wanna argue Shawn was carried (I think he was the weaker worker in the match ftr, but he was more than game that night)?

 

Sting had good matches with a lot of people. He had a great match with DDP as late as 99. Fact is that Sting and Vader was just a good match up for each guy.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm just curious what the majority opinion is:

 

KENTA or Marufuji?

I really don't like either, but I do think Marufuji v. Taue and Marufuji v. Kobashi are better than any KENTA v. heavyweight match I've ever seen. All other things being equally annoying, I guess I prefer Marufuji.

[Jingus]

Shawn Michaels match with Jeff Jarrett was more similar to Jarrett match than Shawn match. You wanna argue Shawn was carried (I think he was the weaker worker in the match ftr, but he was more than game that night)?

 

Sting had good matches with a lot of people. He had a great match with DDP as late as 99. Fact is that Sting and Vader was just a good match up for each guy.

Perhaps that wasn't the best way to phrase it. Vader made small changes in his style depending on circumstances, but he very often worked a fairly simple Insert Fiery Babyface Here type of formula. Big Van beats the living fuck out of them with his power moves and brutal strikes, they make a few well-timed comebacks where he bumps around and makes them look like Superman, so forth and so on. He could do the same match with Sting or Flair or Hogan or Inoki with only relatively slight adjustments for personal style. And he was quite possibly the best in the world at that sort of David/Goliath match. Sting carried his end of the load, certainly; I don't wanna say that he was just a warm body thrown in whom Vader worked his typical match around. But, well, I do feel that way at least a little. Sting did very well as the Fiery Babyface who was inserted here, but it still came across like those were Vader's matches and Sting was along for the ride.

 

I do agree that Sting/Vader had freaky chemistry together, as personally I think those were the most fun matches that either guy had. But Vader has a lot more competition for that particular title than Sting does, imo. Vader had classics with, shit, to list them would damn near be to list half the guys he ever feuded with. Who else did Sting wrestle which even came close to that level? Flair, Cactus, maybe Muta or Rude, a few tag matches with the Steiners and the like, and... who else? His own Great Matches list is rather shorter.

[ohtani's jacket]

When did Sting ever do anything like that with anyone else, though? The Vader/Sting matches were much more similar to Vader's other matches with different people than they were to Sting's other matches.

That's because all Vader matches are the same.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm not arguing Sting is a Vader level worker or that he has the same number of Classics as Vader. I'm arguing that Vader v. Sting was a good matchup for each guy. Sting was also a good matchup for Page and a good matchup for Regal.

 

Vader's schtick worked best against believable babyfaces, especially guys that could sell, work comeback spots and had enough power offense to make his big bumps look legit and not silly. Sting was a good foil for him.

[Dylan Waco]

Stan Hansen or Vader?

 

This is very close, but I think I prefer Hansen. To me Hansen's out of control brawling schtick was more believable than Vader's which could border on cartoonish when he was in their with certain opponents. I also think Hansen was arguably more versatile in the sense that he seemed to have less of a routine to his matches than Vader did.

 

Eddy Guerrero or Rey Mysterio?

 

Another real tough one. I think the best case for Eddy is that he was more versatile than Rey. While Rey has had two peaks, working two different styles very effectively, Eddy was a guy that could pretty much work whatever style or role a match called for at the moment. In 97 he worked clean babyface, conflicted babyface, sneaky heel, cowardly heel and vicious heel against a variety of opponents all well. He had a set of bumps, ring movements, techniques, etc. for each role and worked them perfectly depending on the circumstances. Rey is a better babyface now than Eddy ever was, but he doesn't have that depth and probably never will. On the other hand Eddy was less consistent - largely because of drug use - so there is that. Still I'll go with Eddy albeit slightly.

 

Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels?

 

Bret easily. He was just more capable. Shawn is a great gimmick match worker and has a good sense of the big moment in matches, but I think Bret smokes him in almost every other category.

[sek69]

You know, it took watching the Eddy-Angle match up on WWE On Demand to make me realize how much I missed watching Eddy. You can talk about moveset and work rate all day, but my favorite part of his matches were the devilish little kid faces he'd make whenever he found a new way to cheat.

 

And really it was kind of amazing that he was able to turn the very basics of heeling (lying, cheating, stealing) into a babyface gimmick that got over pretty big.

[El-P]

Hansen, easily. Longer prime, better matches, better seller, better psychology.

Eddie easily. Rey WWE stint is obscenely overrated (ok, send the hate;). Eddie was better than Rey pretty much at every point of his career.

Bret easily. Shawn is one of the most overrated worker ever, right next to Kurt Angle (althougyh much much better than Angle and has been excellent in his prime).

Marufuji. Much more creative, in a good way, which is rare, than KENTA and more a total package in term of being able to work with difefrent kind of opponents.

[ohtani's jacket]

How can you say Rey's WWE stuff is overrated and have anything good to say about Marufuji?

[El-P]

I knew you'd catch me on that one Dan.

 

Rey has become an efficient but typical WWE worker. Kudos for him for adapting to this dull style (and getting roided to the grill in te process). Doesn't mean I have any interest watching any of his stuff.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm not a big fan of Mysterio Jr., but the other day I watched him have an excellent match with Finlay from 2006.

 

It was a storyline match much like Rey's feud with Eddie Guerrero in 2005. I couldn't give a shit about Rey's problems with Vicki Guerrero, and I didn't need Cole reminding us that every...single...second...of...the...match was about Rey's problems with Vicki Guerrero, but it was an excellent match by any standards. All of the Vicki Guerrero crap was annoying in the same manner that all of the emotion of that Unforgiven cage match that Dylan loves is annoying because the commentators never stop ramming it down your throat, but it's not the workers fault that the commentators can't or won't shut up.

 

But more to the point, there is nothing good about Marufuji.

[Childs]

I love Vader but Hansen was better. I can't imagine Vader working old-school, slow-build title matches like Hansen did in his excellent series with Inoki. Hansen was a more nuanced seller who always seemed to grasp how to work within the Japanese hierarchy system. He was at least as good as Vader at playing out-of-control wrecking machine. He just had more tools in his bag.

 

Same argument for Eddy over Rey really. I love Rey's face run in WWE, but Eddy knocked so many different roles out of the park. He could be as spectacular as Rey, but he also thrived as several different shades of heel, fit right into the NJ juniors division and came across as a more credible opponent for big guys (not that Rey hasn't worked fun matches with giants.)

 

I don't get those who say Bret was repetitive but don't nail Shawn with the same criticism. In any big match, you know he's going to start with some "clever" strategy or countering but then forget about it in five minutes. You know he's going to try that awful looking moonsault to the floor. You know he's going to hit the flying forearm into the nip-up and the big elbow. You know the initial superkick will be blocked. You know he'll kick out of a finisher or three. And so much of his execution is so bad. He was better pre-injury and does have a sense of the big stage, but his work is so ... cheesy. I never felt that way about Bret.

 

And KENTA over Marufuji. Aside from those matches against the old greats in '06, I've hated almost everything Marufuji has ever done. His offense and schtick are so self-consciously "look at me." His matches are all about the opponent standing around in odd positions so Marufuji can hit his "clever" spots. I just hate watching the guy. KENTA, at least, can be a lot of fun as the pissy little guy drilling bigger dudes with kicks in a tag match. I've also liked him playing the striker against some of your greater indy workers such as Danielson, Sydal and Nigel. Marufuji, on the other hand, has managed to drag those guys into bad matches.

[Loss]

It's possible I'm wrong about this, but Hansen strikes me as a very good wrestler who had one great year, more than he does a career great wrestler.

 

Does he have ANY great matches in the U.S. at all?

 

I'd put Vader above him simply for having great matches in more places and in different environments.

 

I totally agree that '93 Hansen was awesome, but I don't know that one year of awesome outdoes Vader, no matter how good it was.

[El-P]

It's possible I'm wrong about this, but Hansen strikes me as a very good wrestler who had one great year, more than he does a career great wrestler.

Hansen was already great in the 80's, carrying the no-selling Brody to great tag matches by doing the workload. He carried old Baba to super matches in the early 80's. Hansen was basically excellent for 15 years, from the late 70's to mid 90's. Vader has been great for a few years in the 90's (90/95 and then good again in AJ but not nearly as good as Hansen was there for 15 years). Don't get me wrong, I like Vader a lot, but I also agre with some of the criticism that he'd bump too easily and that he'd try to cram to much "big spots" for the sake of it.

 

Does he have ANY great matches in the U.S. at all?

How is that a criteria, especially for a guy for worked basically his entire career in Japan? Hansen beating the shit out of Luger in 90 was fun.

 

I'd put Vader above him simply for having great matches in more places and in different environments.

But like Dan says, and I mostly agree, Vader worked basically the same way everywhere, including UWF-I. People that are big on stuff like Rey adapting greatly to the WWE style should hold against Vader the fact that he couldn't adapt once he was deprived of working super stiff. Not that I would personnaly agree, but it seems like a big criteria these days.

[Childs]

Well, he didn't wrestle in the U.S. very much. He was consistently good in his AWA run, though I wouldn't call any of the individual matches great.

 

He was pretty clearly a great wrestler in New Japan by 1980-81. The Inoki matches were all excellent and his '81 match with Andre will push top 10 on my DVDVR ballot. He transitioned immediately from there to an excellent series with a past-his-prime Baba. I guess he had better and worse years as the '80s rolled on, but his fundamental skills -- great connection between character and work, smart selling and bumping, excellent timing and ring positioning, brutal-looking offense -- never changed.

 

People slag his work with Jumbo, and it's true that they never had a stone classic. But they had some damn good matches -- just two big guys whaling on each other.

 

His '93 stood out because Kawada, Kobashi and Misawa really came into their own as singles workers. I think Stan would have been just as ready to have great matches with them in 1989. It's unfortunate that his physical decline was beginning by the time they reached that level.

 

If you watch Will's Hansen comp, I think it becomes pretty clear that Stan operated at a high level from at least 1980 to 1993.

 

Vader had great matches in various settings but not really by varying what he did. That's not a knock on him. He was the perfect badass monster to pair with a babyface who had some offense. He didn't need to mix it up to have excellent matches. I just see a bit more variety in Stan's high-end performances.

[smkelly]

I'd put Hansen above Vader, any day of the week. And yes, I do believe that one incredible year of work would out do a career of good/great efforts.

 

And, Rey Jr., even though injuries and banned movements make him better than Marufuji who constantly wants to do fifteen minutes of elevated finishers a la Angle.

[Indikator]

Looking at my Georgia files I found +500 Hansen matches. Yet, I couldn't name you a single match. Is this only because of little available footage or wasn't his US stuff that good in comparism?

[sek69]

An interesting twist on the debate is that in the AWA Hansen defended the title against a still green Leon "Baby Bull" White, and it's the most I've ever seen Hansen sell for someone in a US match. I was expecting it to be another crazy brawl ending in a double DQ or countout like most of his AWA matches seem to be, but it was a pretty decent "strong style" kind of match where it was two dudes beating the piss out of each other.

[Frankensteiner]

Getting back to Rey v Eddie, I never understood the praise for Mysterio. Good sympathetic babyface worker but, as mentioned, mastering modern WWE style with overdone counters and "physicality" is nothing to get excited about. I'm confused why people list him as a top 10 all-time worker. I think Backlund, Tito, Savage, and Bret were all better at working as faces for the company. I like Rey's feud with Eddie but I don't think it's as good as Tito v. Greg or Bret v. Owen. I'm probably in the minority, however.

[ohtani's jacket]

Every great worker is overrated to one extent or another.

 

Take Eddie for example. He had two really good periods, WCW in 1997 and WWE 2004-05. The rest you could nitpick. If you ask me he wasn't particularly good in Mexico, his early US babyface work was weak, his Japanese work was a mixed bag and he struggled when he first joined WWE. Eddie Guerrero fans won't see it that way, but the point is that you can critique anything.

 

Rey's WWE work, of which I've seen the stuff recommended to me, is better than his AAA, ECW, WAR and WCW stuff. Wrestling fans always want to compare workers against each other when often there's no connection. I don't really know how you judge a Tito Santana performance from 1984 or 1985 with a Rey Mysterio performance from twenty years later. Tito was in an awesome feud with Greg Valentine. A wrestling feud. The type of feud that forms the foundation of most people's fandom. Rey is feuding over shit that wouldn't make it past the writer's table on a network drama. Hell, it's such crap that the writer's would be too embarrassed to bring it up. So, I think the only way to judge Mysterio is whether he's better now than he was in '96 and '97. Athletically, many people would say no. Match wise, I'd say yes.

[Frankensteiner]

Rey's WWE work, of which I've seen the stuff recommended to me, is better than his AAA, ECW, WAR and WCW stuff. Wrestling fans always want to compare workers against each other when often there's no connection. I don't really know how you judge a Tito Santana performance from 1984 or 1985 with a Rey Mysterio performance from twenty years later. Tito was in an awesome feud with Greg Valentine. A wrestling feud. The type of feud that forms the foundation of most people's fandom. Rey is feuding over shit that wouldn't make it past the writer's table on a network drama. Hell, it's such crap that the writer's would be too embarrassed to bring it up. So, I think the only way to judge Mysterio is whether he's better now than he was in '96 and '97. Athletically, many people would say no. Match wise, I'd say yes.

Well, when you're doing things like the "Greatest WWF/E Matches Ever" countdowns on smarkschoice, you're sort of forced to judge a Tito Santana performance in '84 with a Bret Hart performance in '93 with a Rey Mysterio performancce in '06. And when people call a wrestler (any wrestler, not just Mysterio) as the greatest in company history, there is a need to compare him to other wrestlers in that company, even if it means going back 30 some years.

 

I agree with you about Mysterio being better now than in any other period before.

[stunning_grover]

Every great worker is overrated to one extent or another.

 

Take Eddie for example. He had two really good periods, WCW in 1997 and WWE 2004-05. The rest you could nitpick. If you ask me he wasn't particularly good in Mexico, his early US babyface work was weak, his Japanese work was a mixed bag and he struggled when he first joined WWE. Eddie Guerrero fans won't see it that way, but the point is that you can critique anything.

 

Rey's WWE work, of which I've seen the stuff recommended to me, is better than his AAA, ECW, WAR and WCW stuff. Wrestling fans always want to compare workers against each other when often there's no connection. I don't really know how you judge a Tito Santana performance from 1984 or 1985 with a Rey Mysterio performance from twenty years later. Tito was in an awesome feud with Greg Valentine. A wrestling feud. The type of feud that forms the foundation of most people's fandom. Rey is feuding over shit that wouldn't make it past the writer's table on a network drama. Hell, it's such crap that the writer's would be too embarrassed to bring it up. So, I think the only way to judge Mysterio is whether he's better now than he was in '96 and '97. Athletically, many people would say no. Match wise, I'd say yes.

I still think that Rey Jr.’s WWE work is typical WWE work and therefore not great (sure, he’s better than most of the roster, but still not as good as he was in 1995/1996). His WWE matches may be more accessible now and easier to watch (and may fit the shoe of what a good match is supposed to be in the 2000s better), but I find them not very interesting compared to his more unique matches from 1995/1996. And about Eddy Guerrero... His work in Mexico is underrated (don’t forget that he was a major part of Los Gringos Locos, one of the hottest heel acts in history). His early US babyface work was surprisingly over with the crowd and he was one of the two best workers in WCW at the time. His Japanese work was mostly very impressive (I really wouldn’t call it a “mixed bag”... sure he had one very disappointing match with Great Sasuke in 1996, and he didn’t have four-star matches all the time, but that can happen). And yes, he struggled when he joined WWE, but he managed to succeed, against all odds... Some people may think that Rey Jr. faced bigger odds... but let’s face it... Eddy was a drug addicted alcoholic who saw his life falling apart, was mistreated by WCW’s booking, and still managed to be a big success, while Rey Jr. has been an accessible and popular wrestler (he’s a natural babyface... he has a reputation for exciting moves, and because of his size, the kids think he’s cute), received the biggest push of the Mexicans in WCW, and owes a great deal of his current success to Eddy.

 

 

 

I see the Rey Misterio Jr. situation more as a Sabu situation. I know they have different styles, but both are workers who were really exciting when they were "discovered" . Remember how people were talking about how great Sabu was in 1993/1994 and then just a few years later, some of those very same people started talking about how bad Sabu was? Sabu is not a great wrestler and he definitely isn't as good as Rey Jr. (that's why we are still talking about Rey Jr. in a positive way and not much about Sabu), but in 1993/1994, Sabu was “new” and exciting. In 1994/1995, Rey Jr. was “new” and exciting... Yeah, Rey Jr. may have improved some aspects of his work, but he also lost the main aspect of his appeal (he is now just another typical WWE worker). By the way, I think Rey Jr. is much more doing the same old thing in WWE than he did in AAA. His matches in WWE are more similar to each other than his matches in AAA. And I don't understand why people are talking about how much he has improved as an all-round worker. Some people are talking like the fact that he isn’t using as many high flying moves as in the past automatically means that he is now a better babyface storyteller in the ring. By the way, Rey Jr. was always a good storyteller, only in the past, he combined it with great high flying (he was never a high spot machine or something, he had good psychology)... now he combines it with typical WWE work. Sure, he has learned many things over the years (but that's to be expected)... still, it's not like he changed into a Ricky Steamboat or something. So, I still don't see what's so special about Rey Jr. being able to work WWE matches. I mean, if KENTA would come to WWE and change his style to WWE style... would you all be talking about how much KENTA has improved then as well? I understand everyone is happy to see a worker like Rey Jr. on current tv shows (he is clearly one of the five best workers in WWE right now)… but in years from now, I think if we will look back on the career of Rey Jr., it will be obvious that his work in AAA was the most crucial and best part of his career. His run in WWE will just be remembered as a nice extension of his career, which deserves some credit, but doesn’t mean it’s better than anything he has ever done.

 

By the way, I agree with “Frankensteiner”, who mentioned that Bob Backlund, Tito Santana, Randy Savage, and Bret Hart were better at working as faces for the WWF/WWE than Rey Jr. and that Tito Santana vs. Greg Valentine, and Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart were better than Rey Jr.’s feud with Eddy Guerrero.

 

 

Eddy Guerrero vs. Rey Misterio Jr...

 

Eddy Guerrero is one of the greatest workers this world has ever seen. He could work all over the world and have an excellent match in seemingly any style. He was a great heel and a great babyface. You could send him to EMLL, AAA, NJPW, ECW, WCW, WWF/WWE, England, and the independents in the US... then he would adapt himself to the environment and send everyone home with a smile on their faces knowing that Eddy’s match was a lot of fun to watch. In the late 1980s/early 1990s, he was a young lucha libre style worker who was improving every year. In 1989, he was already good enough to have WCW fly him in to work against Terry Funk for a squash match. In 1992, he had his first tour in New Japan (where he first met Chris Benoit) and was so impressive that he continued to be booked on tours for 4 years straight. In 1993 he finally got his big break in Mexico in AAA when he teamed up with Love Machine (Art Barr). In 1993/1994, he was having great matches in Japan and Mexico... and actually combined the Mexican lucha libre style with the Japanese NJPW junior heavyweight style. In 1995, he went to ECW and managed to get people crying in the arena when it was announced that he would leave the promotion. In 1995, he went to WCW and was one of the most over babyfaces, against all odds. In 1997, he turned heel and managed to improve his superstar status in the United States. In the mean time, he was also going through major personal problems (drugs, alcohol etc.), but still managed to perform at an amazing level in the ring. When he had his 2002 "back-from-rehab year", he went to the independents and had really good matches with many different kind of workers. He even went back to New Japan and showed that he could still go (it wasn't as good as his work from the 1990s, but then again... wrestling all from over the world during the 2000s wasn't as good as during the 1990s, so he was still one of the best). And amazingly, the 5'7" Mexican wrestler became one of the major stars of the WWE.

 

And Rey Misterio Jr... Well, you already know what I think of him (see my comments on Rey Jr.). I like Rey Jr. and he's very good, but he’s not even close to the level of Eddy Guerrero.

 

 

KENTA vs. Marufuji...

 

I’m not all that familiar with these guys, so, I’ll keep this one short. But I’d just like to mention that from what I’ve seen, I get the impression that KENTA is better.

 

 

Stan Hansen vs. Vader...

 

When I think of Vader, I remember a whole bunch of great Vader matches that I enjoyed... even though I wasn't a fan of his at the time (shame on me). But looking back... He was great in WCW (for example, I love his match vs. Flair). He was great in UWF-I (his matches vs. Takada were excellent). And even after the WWF buried him, he managed to return to All Japan as a top star. I really like that run he had in 1998/1999 in All Japan (which started with him teaming with Stan Hansen). I never was as much of a Vader fan as most people seem to be, but I've started to appreciate his work more and more lately.

 

When I think of Stan Hansen, I think of his work in All Japan. He was a major star in All Japan and people were going crazy for him. He is probably one of the three most popular foreign wrestlers ever in Japan.

 

Hansen is apparently as blind as a bat and runs into people with crazy stiffness. I think he is a dangerous worker because of this fact. But, of course, I understand that is a major part of his appeal. Then again... Vader also has incredible stiffness and I think Vader is a better all-round worker, because he doesn’t necessarily have to rely on stiffness (while I feel that Hansen kind of has to rely on it).

 

I think Stan Hansen had far more disappointing matches than Vader ever had. Even during Vader’s WWF run, which was the most disappointing part of his career (mostly because of WWF’s booking), he managed to hang on and still be somewhat of a credible worker. I think with Vader's matches, generally speaking, you kind of know you will get something good. But with Hansen, you just have to wait and see. Yes, you'll see a lot of stiff work from Hansen, but sometimes his matches are just very disappointing. Hansen was a pretty smart worker, but I think Vader was a smarter worker as he managed to get more out of his matches. I doubt Stan Hansen would be able to do what Vader did in WCW in 1992/1993, have matches with Takada in UWF-I of the quality Vader had, get buried by WWF and manage to return to Japan with the impact Vader made when he came back in 1998.

 

Sure, Stan Hansen had the famous matches against Kenta Kobashi in 1993... but Kenta Kobashi in 1993 was arguably one of the three very best workers in the world (and that says a lot, because 1993 was a hot year with workers like Akira Hokuto, Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada, Chris Benoit, Eddy Guerrero, and Vader all being awesome).

 

I think Stan Hansen managed to survive so long in Japan mostly because of his charisma and popularity, not so much because of his ability. The Japanese crowd loved his gimmick and they respect him, because he is a legend. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying he didn't have the ability... but I just think he didn't have the career that Vader had when it comes to in-ring quality. Vader worked in so many different environments and always managed to succeed (even his WWF run could have been much worse, if he wasn't as good as he was).

 

I noticed that some people were talking about Vader as if he is some kind of routine worker and that his bumping and selling is sometimes unrealistic. But, hey... this is pro wrestling.

 

Of course, there are many similarities between Vader’s matches, but isn’t that the case with so many other great wrestlers as well? I’d rather see a “same old” Vader match (but I really don’t consider Vader to be a “by the numbers” worker or something like that) than a different and disappointing Hansen match (and there have been quite some of those). By the way... why is Vader doing his typical spots regarded as “routine” and “the same”, while Hansen’s same old brawling thing is “less routine” and “versatile”? I really don’t consider Hansen to be that versatile at all... I doubt Hansen could have the same quality matches against Sting, Takada etc. as Vader had. Hansen needed someone he could have a stiff match with... someone like Kobashi for example. Vader, on the other hand, didn’t necessarily need to have a certain type of opponent. He had really good matches with different types of opponents in different types of promotions.

 

By the way, I think Vader’s 1993 was even better than Hansen’s 1993. Personally, I feel that 1981 was Stan Hansen’s best year. I think his 1993 year may look better at first sight, simply because 1993 All Japan is one of the greatest things this earth has ever witnessed.

 

About the Hansen vs. Inoki match... it was not uncommon for Inoki to have a big match of high quality like that in the 1970s/1980s. Inoki could still go and the opposition usually stepped up their own game a notch or two. However, it was very uncommon and almost a miracle that Inoki had a great match in 1996... and guess what, that was a match with Vader.

 

So, yeah... I'm definitely going with Vader.

 

 

Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels...

 

Always an interesting discussion.

 

Bret Hart is one of the most respected wrestlers ever. Even though he was not as good a technical wrestler as he thinks he was and the WWF tried to portray him as... he was still a very solid worker. He was a slow learner, but had a tremendous learning environment (Calgary) to provide him with all the necessary basics. He was one of the sons of a wrestling promoter and had the opportunity to work with Dynamite Kid, who was arguably the very best worker in the world at that time. He had some very good matches with Dynamite Kid in the late 1970s/early 1980s, which were the best matches of his early years. But even Bruce Hart had good matches with Dynamite Kid at that time, so, Bret was more like a Davey Boy Smith type worker at that time (he was able to hang in there with the right opposition, but not able to carry the work himself). When he joined WWF in 1984, he slowly started to improve and slowly became a more solid worker over the years. By the late 1980s, he had become one of the best workers of the company. In 1991, he finally got his singles push and that’s when things started to look only better for him. In 1992, he had an awesome year. He carried Davey Boy Smith, who was totally drugged out of his mind, to one of the best matches in WWF history. Not long after that, he finally became the WWF world heavyweight champion and was basically officially recognised as one of the best in the world. In 1994, he had the famous feud against his younger brother Owen. In 1996, he had the famous iron man match against Shawn Michaels. In 1997, he managed to become a top heel. After the infamous Montreal incident, he moved to WCW and still managed to impress, even though the WCW was a mess.

 

Bret Hart was an excellent wrestler. The best thing about Bret is that he makes you believe him. He makes you believe that he really is excellent. You can feel it from the way he talks, walks and works. He is a very convincing performer. But in the end... if you manage to look at it from a perspective other than Bret’s, he really isn’t much of a technical wrestler at all and his work is excellent, but not great... he certainly isn’t the “best there is, was, and ever will be” (but I admit that he is the “excellence of execution”... his execution is excellent).

 

But let’s talk about Shawn Michaels. When he was part of the Rockers, he was a young and athletic worker who, along with his partner Marty Jannetty, was one of the more spectacular wrestlers at the time. He managed to remain one of the most spectacular wrestlers throughout his entire career. The Rockers are one of the best tag teams in history. Shawn had a good singles run in 1992, which showed that he was able to be a top singles wrestler. In 1994, he had the awesome ladder match, which was the match where he really proofed he was one of the very best workers in the world. In 1995, he turned babyface, because he simply became too popular. He had a great babyface run. As WWF champion in 1996, he managed to keep the WWF alive when the WCW was really hot with the arrival of Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, and the interesting cruiserweight division. If it wasn’t for Shawn Michaels, 1996 WWF would have been a disaster. In 1997 he had the awesome Hell in a Cell match against Undertaker. He retired in 1998, because of a major back injury. He returned in 2002, and managed to be very successful again. From 2002 through 2009, Shawn Michaels was one of the very few reasons to watch WWE. At WrestleMania XXV, he had another awesome match against Undertaker. I think it’s amazing that Shawn Michaels has such a long and successful career. And now it looks like he is currently in his final 7 months or so of his career, but what a career this man has had. Say what you want about him... many people don’t like him, because of his gimmick, because of his backstage behaviour, because it’s not cool to like him etc. etc. But... Shawn Michaels will always be remembered as one of the greatest that ever lived, whether you like it or not.

 

So... as much as I like Bret Hart, I’m going with Shawn Michaels.

 

 

I would like to throw in the following comparison, if that’s okay...

 

Who was better... Bret Hart or Owen Hart?

I’m interested in how people will compare these two brothers. Both had such different careers... Bret had a long peak, Owen had a short peak... Bret had a late peak, Owen had his peak early in his career... Bret had a great push, Owen was very underrated... etc. I’m curious how you think those factors influence the overall ranking of the two next to the difference in actual in-ring ability.

[Tim Evans]

I see the Rey Misterio Jr. situation more as a Sabu situation. I know they have different styles, but both are workers who were really exciting when they were "discovered" . Remember how people were talking about how great Sabu was in 1993/1994 and then just a few years later, some of those very same people started talking about how bad Sabu was? Sabu is not a great wrestler and he definitely isn't as good as Rey Jr. (that's why we are still talking about Rey Jr. in a positive way and not much about Sabu), but in 1993/1994, Sabu was “new” and exciting. In 1994/1995, Rey Jr. was “new” and exciting... Yeah, Rey Jr. may have improved some aspects of his work, but he also lost the main aspect of his appeal (he is now just another typical WWE worker). By the way, I think Rey Jr. is much more doing the same old thing in WWE than he did in AAA. His matches in WWE are more similar to each other than his matches in AAA. And I don't understand why people are talking about how much he has improved as an all-round worker. Some people are talking like the fact that he isn’t using as many high flying moves as in the past automatically means that he is now a better babyface storyteller in the ring. By the way, Rey Jr. was always a good storyteller, only in the past, he combined it with great high flying (he was never a high spot machine or something, he had good psychology)... now he combines it with typical WWE work. Sure, he has learned many things over the years (but that's to be expected)... still, it's not like he changed into a Ricky Steamboat or something. So, I still don't see what's so special about Rey Jr. being able to work WWE matches. I mean, if KENTA would come to WWE and change his style to WWE style... would you all be talking about how much KENTA has improved then as well? I understand everyone is happy to see a worker like Rey Jr. on current tv shows (he is clearly one of the five best workers in WWE right now)… but in years from now, I think if we will look back on the career of Rey Jr., it will be obvious that his work in AAA was the most crucial and best part of his career. His run in WWE will just be remembered as a nice extension of his career, which deserves some credit, but doesn’t mean it’s better than anything he has ever done.

What are some of these great AAA Rey matches that make him better then than he is now? I can't think of one that was better than Rey/Eddy from Smackdown in June 05. His AAA stuff was good but hasn't really held up well. The feud with Juvi especially hasn't held up. The cage match they had was horrible and very ECW like. In WWE he's able to adapt to different guys like Ziggler, Knox, Hart Dynasty etc. and have good matches with them. It's not like in AAA when he was facing guys that had a similar style(Juvi, Psicosis, Perro Jr., Eddy etc). As for Eddy's work in Los Gringos Locos, it's one of my favorite groups ever but none of those matches were better than his WCW 1997 and WWE 2005 matches. Octagon/Santo vs LGL has been REALLY overrated over time. The match that's on the PWO comp is way better and even that I wouldn't call a great match.