Who Is Better?

[ohtani's jacket]

Here's a question -- has there ever been a better Japanese pro-wrestler than Fujiwara?

Probably not. I'm not overly high on his NJPW stuff, but he was the best worker in the original UWF, and his stuff from the time he left NJPW in '89 to the last few years of PWFG is untouchable.

 

El Hijo del Santo or Negro Casas?

Difficult to say without their UWA work, though I guess it's kinda telling that Santo never looked as good as he did in UWA unless he was working Casas. Casas made a smart decision to go to CMLL in '92 and ended up working two of the most memorable feuds of the 90s with Dandy and Santo. Fantastic rudo and a hell of a second too, if you ever get the chance to see him in the corner. I'm not a huge fan of his offence, but he was a hell of a performer. Santo was, and is, a formula worker, and sometimes I'm surprised by just how well he excutes that formula, but other times I think he mails it in as much as any other person who's ever been accused of doing so.

 

Barry Windham or Arn Anderson?

I think I'll go with Arn here. Barry was never a great big match worker to me, and inconsistent as a TV wrestler. Arn, on the other hand, grew steadily better from 1990 until 1992, when he had one of the best years of any worker I've seen. Barry probably had more good matches, but I'd wager that Arn a higher number of good performances.

 

Marty Jones or Dynamite Kid?

Marty Jones. Not even close, though Dynamite Kid was awesome in the match they had together. He really should've stayed in Europe.

 

Hulk Hogan or Dusty Rhodes ?

Would rather watch a marathon of Dusty promos than watch either of these guys work. Dusty is far more disappointing for me in the sense that his promos are so good but I can't mark out and enjoy his matches.

 

Steven Regal or Fit Finlay?

I like Regal better as a worker, but Finlay has a higher number of good matches, due to his WoS run and more successful WWE run.

 

Marty Jannetty or Davey Boy Smith?

I'd rather watch Jannetty, but Davey Boy Smith got more of his career. If Jannetty had been more like Robert Gibson, this would be an easy pick, but despite not liking DBS in general, I feel he was better. I was impressed with that Vader feud in '93.

 

Atsushi Onita or Mick Foley

Foley. Never seen an Onita match worth a damn.

 

Mima Shimoda or Takako Inoue

Man, this is a comparison that no longer means much to people. I'll go with Takako. LCO were insanely overrated. Takako's rise from '92-95 was a lot of fun, and when she finally got to play the heel character that she wanted to be in the first place, she was just as charismatic as Shimoda.

[Dylan Waco]

Getting caught up:

 

Has there ever been a better Japanese wrestler than Fujiwara?

 

Fujiwara combines the big match feel of a Choshu with the mechanics and thrill of the AJPW guys. That's probably a bit of a clunky point to make, but it's the best I can come up with. Still I don't feel that I've seen enough of Fujiwara's best to rate him as THE BEST at this point. He's still a guy I'm exploring, whereas most of the other puro greats are guys I closed the door on long ago. I'd rather watch Fujiwara at this point than almost any other Japanese worker besides Otsuka or Fujinami but that is pure preference and nothing more. This is something I hope to be answer more honestly in another year or two.

 

El Hijo del Santo or Negro Casas?

 

Based on what I've seen I like Casas better. The fact that both guys are still solid workers is really impressive in general, but the big match Casas performances always come across as bold in a way that the Santo matches don't. I do cop to being a mark for some of Santo's offensive makeup, but that's probably another clunky point. Still both of these guys are more like Fujiwara to me than anything. There is a lot for me to explore.

 

Barry Windham or Arn Anderson?

 

Arn is way underrated in most circles, but I think Barry is one of the best wrestlers ever if we are going on peak alone. Arn was a great tv worker to be sure, but to me Windham was just as good - maybe better. Very good heirachial style worker in a country where that style of work hasn't been well done. Arn was more consistent and never had the lows Barry had though. Both of these guys would be in my top fifteen American wrestlers ever. Probably top ten.

 

Marty Jones or Dynamite Kid?

 

I like Marty much better. He has the capability of working several speeds, whereas DK is really a one speed worker. Jones is one of those guys that makes big spots feel big, whereas DK is one of those guys who just makes lots of big spots. Not a knock on DK because he's one of the most exciting wrestlers ever, but he's not the craftsman Jones was. Not even close.

[Dylan Waco]

This came up on another board:

 

CM Punk or Diamond Dallas Page?

[El-P]

Mima Shimoda or Takako Inoue

Man, this is a comparison that no longer means much to people.

Their loss. It's funny how out of fashion certain things go while others become the talk of the day.

[Dylan Waco]

Mima Shimoda or Takako Inoue

Man, this is a comparison that no longer means much to people.

Their loss. It's funny how out of fashion certain things go while others become the talk of the day.

 

 

Speaking entirely for myself, I OD'ed on Joshi about eight or nine years ago and I've never been able to watch it or even think about it in a major way since.

[ohtani's jacket]

Well, there's really no Joshi matches left to watch.

[Guest DietSoda]

DDP is better than Punk by country mile, IMO. I'm a Punk fan but Dallas was really underrated as a worker. DDP/Goldberg is still one of my favorite late 90's WCW matches. I don't think Punk could've gotten that level of match out of Goldberg.

 

Jerry Lawler or Chris Benoit?

 

Robert Gibson or Matt Hardy?

 

John Cena or The Rock?

[ohtani's jacket]

Might have to change my Jannetty/DBS answer, because I just watched some early Davey Boy Smith and the only British worker I've seen look as good at a similar age was Marty Jones.

[stunning_grover]

Hiroshi Hase vs. Riki Choshu

 

Thanks to the people who reminded me about Choshu's greatness. I need to check out more Choshu from the 1980s again. But I think I'm convinced already now that Choshu was indeed better than Hase.

 

 

Hulk Hogan vs. Dusty Rhodes

 

Hulk Hogan used to be the most hated wrestler on the internet until Triple H received power. Hogan is pretty underrated. Sure, he's not a great wrestler at all (technically speaking). But he had a tremendous career. His work from the 1980s and early 1990s was fun. And about the Hogan matwork thingy he does occasionally (usually in Japan), I find it kind of funny. It doesn't look really that impressive and it's the same thing every time, but it really looks like Hogan thinks he is doing something totally awesome and that makes it work for me. But really, when you go back and watch something like the Best of Saturday Night's Main Event dvd set or some other old WWF matches, Hogan wasn't as bad as people pretended he was. Hogan is great at being Hogan. He understands how to work the crowd, that is something that can't be denied. His promos were kind of fun, especially when you keep in mind the audience it was intended for. And yeah, his charisma was great. Speaking of great charisma...

 

The greatest thing about Dusty Rhodes is his tremendous charisma and his awesome promos. But his in-ring work was not bad either. Especially him being able to work longer matches than you'd expect from him is something that is suprisingly good. Also, making his WWF run in 1989/1990 run work is something that shows how great he is. I don't think Hogan could've pulled that off.

 

So... who's better? It's a tough question. Still, I think Dusty is slightly better, but Hogan is definitely not all that far behind.

 

 

Steven Regal vs. Fit Finlay

 

Steven Regal. He is just awesome. He combines unique British matwork with funny mannerisms and stiffness. Also, in his matches he usually does some clever little things that make him stand out from most workers. And I haven't seem many disappointing matches involving Regal. Sure, not all his matches are equally great and many aren't even great... but his performance in those matches is usually the best he is able to give (for example, his run as "Man's Man Stephen Regal" was really bad, but that was also probably the worst time in his personal life... him being barely alive and still going to the ring at that time was incredible enough). Also, on a less serious note... I prefer Regal's English accent over Finlay's Irish accent.

 

I really wanted to like Finlay. Last year, I watched a lot of Finlay matches. But when I saw more and more matches of him, I actually became less and less impressed with him. Especially his early 1990s work is just incredibly disappointing (for example, his work in Germany, Austria and especially New Japan). I'm not sure and I may be missing something here... but I think it's just a case of Finlay being trendy. So, I have a question for the Finlay marks... is it his WWE work that makes you love him as much as you do? Because I understand it's cool to see him stand out as one of the best and unique WWE workers and I also understand it was cool to see him demolish jobbers in WCW, but I don't really see why he is so awesome when I look back at some of his earlier work. I can't get into his WoS work. I can get into his New Japan matches actually, but those matches are some of the most disappointing matches of the New Japan junior heavyweight division of the early-mid 1990s. I admit that seeing him destroying jobbers in WCW is fun and I understand that he's one of the best things in WWE in the more recent past, but I'm just not as impressed with him as I am with Regal. Also, I actually think Regal's WCW work was more impressive than Finlay's WCW work.

 

 

Davey Boy Smith vs. Marty Jannetty

 

Davey Boy Smith had almost all the right tools of a great wrestler... the right agility, the right physique, the right family, the right learning environment. But, he didn't have the right mind. He couldn't have a match where he would be the one who was making it work. Luckily, when he was in there with the right workers (workers like Dynamite Kid, Owen Hart, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, and Vader), he could have a great match. Also, I think Davey Boy Smith really wanted to be a great wrestler and I think he actually thought he was a great wrestler... but he just seemed to be a little bit stupid.

 

Marty Jannetty is a worker who didn't need anybody to help him through the match. He was a great tag team wrestler and even his singles matches were a lot of fun to watch. He was always over with the crowd and he was always having interesting matches. Too bad that he always got fired though.

 

I think Jannetty was better. Unlike Davey Boy Smith, he wasn't the type of tag team partner that needed to be carried (Davey Boy Smith got carried by Dynamite Kid for years and years)... he was a real tag team partner who added a lot to the matches (Shawn Michaels didn't have to carry Jannetty, they were working together as a great team). It's a shame he didn't get more opportunities in his career (although he definitely had an excellent career, he could've had an even greater career), because he is almost somewhat of a forgotten legend. Davey Boy Smith was lucky to have Bret Hart tell WWF to re-hire him and stick up for him all the time. Jannetty was unlucky enough to be the type of guy who gets fired every time. What was the deal with the Royal Rumble 1993 match? Jannetty got fired because he was under influence or something? I remember Jannetty selling the wrong shoulder in that match and that's basically the only cringe worthy moment of his career as far as I remember (other then hearing stories about him no-showing independent shows all the time in the more recent past).

 

 

Atsushi Onita vs. Mick Foley

 

I'm really not a fan of these guys, so I don't really care about who is better. Both guys really did a lot of harm to themselves and to pro wrestling. I'm not sure who's better, but I'll go with Onita because of the fact that he's a less overrated worker than Foley. Both guys have cool promos though. Foley has really smart promos and Onita cuts promos as if he's playing the lead role in a dramatic action movie (well, his matches are basically like movies anyway with all the explosion crap). But I haven't forgotten about Foley almost killing himself by jumping off that cell at King of the Ring 1998... and that's not what wrestling should be about, in my opinion. That's even less about pro wrestling than Onita rolling around in barbed wire and getting cut by Mr. Pogo's scythe.

 

 

Mima Shimoda vs. Takako Inoue

 

Like other people mentioned in this thread already, joshi puroresu is no longer trendy. I don't think that it makes the comparison less interesting, I guess it just means that it won't result in a heated discussion. I think Takako was actually better and I always thought she was an underrated worker. Shimoda is one of those wrestlers I really wanted to like, but somehow didn't have the matches I hoped they would have. Takako is quite underrated and maybe the fact that joshi puroresu is no longer trendy actually helps her case (the LCO hype seems to be a thing of the past)... I could be wrong though. Anyway, I should go watch some joshi puroresu from the early-mid 1990s again.

 

 

Diamond Dallas Page vs. CM Punk

 

DDP quite easily. I think CM Punk is not that great. Diamond Dallas Page was also not great, but he was a pretty good worker. I remember liking his heel run around 1995. Hanging around with Jake Roberts obviously helped him become the pretty good worker he eventually became, because it was psychology that was his strength. Also, he worked hard and had the will to succeed as a wrestler even though he started when he was relatively old. By the way, people talk about how underrated DDP is all the time... but I think he's not all that underrated. As a matter of fact, I'd say he is more overrated than underrated by now.

 

 

Jerry Lawler vs. Chris Benoit

 

Chris Benoit was a lot better than Jerry Lawler, in my opinion. Jerry Lawler was great at doing his Lawler matches in Memphis. But I'm not much of a fan of Memphis (other than Eddie Gilbert's work). Benoit was just totally awesome. His performances from 1990-1995 are just some of the most awesome performances in wrestling history. Almost everybody used to really liked Benoit's work... until the "Benoit tragedy" happened. I'm curious to see how many default victories Lawler will receive because of it.

 

 

Robert Gibson or Matt Hardy?

 

Matt Hardy is overrated and got carried by Jeff Hardy. Robert Gibson is not overrated (because everyone knows he was the weak link of the team) and got carried by Ricky Morton. But Robert Gibson was better than Matt Hardy. Why? Well, I'm not sure. Maybe it's because Matt Hardy sucks. Or maybe it's because Robert Gibson didn't pretend to be anything else than the weak link who got carried by Ricky Morton, which is better than Matt Hardy pretending to be on Jeff Hardy's level. Also, being part of the Rock 'n' Roll Express is something to be proud of more than being part of the Hardy Boys. By the way, maybe we could throw in some tag team comparisons in a while?

 

 

John Cena vs. The Rock

 

Two of my very least favourite pro wrestlers ever, so I really don't care about this comparison... but I'll go with The Rock because of the fact that some of his promos actually made me laugh, which is something Cena never has been able to do.

[ohtani's jacket]

I like Regal a lot, but his WCW run was a disappointment as far as matches go. Aside from Larry Z match from Saturday Night and the Finlay matches, there's not much else except for maybe the Windham match and I guess some of the Benoit stuff.

 

Early WoS Finlay is extremely good. I'm talking about the '82-84 period. It wasn't until the late 80s that he started getting sluggish. He was pretty damn athletic in his early years and earned the nickname "Fit."

 

Davey Boy was far better than Dynamite Kid in his first few years as a pro. Both of them got screwed up by leaving Britain. I have a hard time believing that DK was a good influence on DBS in their tag team years.

 

Jerry Lawler vs. Chris Benoit

Haven't watched a Benoit match since the murders, so I don't really have an opinion about him anymore. My enjoyment of Lawler depends on his opponent. For some reason, I prefer Memphis studio stuff to the arena matches.

[stunning_grover]

Early WoS Finlay is extremely good. I'm talking about the '82-84 period. It wasn't until the late 80s that he started getting sluggish. He was pretty damn athletic in his early years and earned the nickname "Fit."

Okay. Yes, it's true that I am very impressed with Finlay's work from around 1983. I can't really explain why as I just don't care for his work that much from around 1986 onwards, other than his WCW and WWE work being somewhat fun to watch. I guess it's that I think Finlay was just a great athletic young wrestler during the early 1980s and that I don't care that much for his more sluggish work.

 

 

Davey Boy was far better than Dynamite Kid in his first few years as a pro. Both of them got screwed up by leaving Britain. I have a hard time believing that DK was a good influence on DBS in their tag team years.

Well, I'm not sure if Dynamite Kid was a good influence, but he sure was an influence.

 

 

My enjoyment of Lawler depends on his opponent. For some reason, I prefer Memphis studio stuff to the arena matches.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot about the Memphis studio. I also think the Memphis studio stuff is a lot of fun. I think it's the atmosphere in the studio that makes it more fun.

[MJH]

Hase vs. Choshu

 

Hase. Choshu had things and could do things Hase couldn't do (and I'm willing to go back and re-evaluate my opinion) and a lot of that has been brought up in this discussion but Hase is/was so dynamic - for lack of a better word - he's probably my favourite New Japan wrestler (if we don't count Takada). The Takada match from '88 and the Chono match from '93 are two of the most overlooked matches ever in the company. The Takada match has had some play but it's the Takada/Koshinaka feud that gets most of the plaudits for that time. The Chono match is simply a great match. Plus I dig that whole "mirror" structure anyway.

 

Dynamite Kid vs. Marty Jones

 

This is going to sound like I'm flipping on my argument in Hase/Choshu to a degree, but I'm voting Dynamite because he was a far more special worker. Jones is very good just about every time I see him, but Dynamite's one of those guys who people focus on the flaws way to much because he's had such a rep for so long. Sure, I agree with just about all the criticism labelled his way, but the upside there can't be ignored. It's like Toyota (who I'd rate over him FTR). I don't think Jones is good enough to make up the difference. Besides, Dynamite is clearly the better of the two in their match, his athleticism/execution are/were just phenomenal at that point. Like OJ alluded to, had he stayed in Europe and not gotten his international rep, and had he just recently been "discovered" in the big surge on World of Sport these last few years, he'd be everyone's favourite wrestler right now or not far off it.

 

Benoit vs. Lawler

 

I have ZERO problem watching Benoit. The best comparison I can give is had something happened when Brian Wilson went off the rails, sure it'd "taint" him in the eyes of most critics but the second those first few bars of God Only Knows comes on... I'm not thinking about that at all. Benoit was elite. His and Guerrero's stuff holds up considerably better for me out of the New Japan juniors of that time. Liger and Ohtani's stuff surprisingly (at least with Liger) less so. I have no real objection to Lawler but this "best US worker ever" talk just seems hyperbolic to me. Lawler's more Taue than Kawada. A very good but limited wrestler as opposed to a great one. Fucking love those punches though. Benoit's the better.

 

Fujiwara best Japanese Wrestler ever...

 

I'd probably have my top 3/4 wrestlers ever as Japanese so for me the question is really is Fujiwara the best worker ever? And I'm saying no. Ignoring for a second the idea that the best ever would've been overlooked up until fairly recently as a rather preposterous one... for me Takada's the best worker of that UWF group. The Fujiwara thing is a bit like Lawler where it strikes me as somewhat hyperbolic. I'm not saying he isn't a good wrestler or even a very good one, but there's "here's an overlooked strong worker" and then turning it into "best ever??" in that rush. Beyer's burst holds up to enough of a degree to have warranted it but I don't recall people putting him over the Jumbos and Kawadas and Kobashis.

 

I watched his match with Takada from February 1990 the other night, for instance. Fujiwara looked good. But... not elite. Not better than Takada. The story's a fairly simple one of Takada's dominant, but Fujiwara's wily and able to sneak a shocking win out using cunningness or whatever "there's still something left in this old dog" yadda yadda. But I didn't get that strong a feeling he was selling that story. The finish amounted to essentially a no-sell by Fujiwara from a legbar. When Takada'd really need an authoritive return from dropping a point as a re-affirmation of who "the man" is there, Fujiwara only really gave it to him once maybe twice. He didn't go down off strikes in any real emphatic way and it was really Takada who was putting Fujiwara over the entire match with the old "oh I'm in trouble" turn of body language whereas I didn't get the same from Fujiwara. His grinning felt more akin to Billy Robinson's rep for "screwing" with guys rather than anything else I can't recall feeling all that much during the match that Fujiwara was in trouble anywhere near as much as Takada would seem at times and for an underdog story to work (which I can only assume would be the idea) that just doesn't work. He has a good case as "best trainer ever" but best worker ever I'm not getting at all...

 

I'm also taking Hogan over Dusty (except on promos...) and Rock over Cena. Both pairings are between similar guys and I just think the emboldened two did it better... I like all four in varying degrees but Hogan and the Rock for me pretty comfortably.

[stunning_grover]

Dynamite Kid vs. Marty Jones

 

This is going to sound like I'm flipping on my argument in Hase/Choshu to a degree, but I'm voting Dynamite because he was a far more special worker. Jones is very good just about every time I see him, but Dynamite's one of those guys who people focus on the flaws way to much because he's had such a rep for so long. Sure, I agree with just about all the criticism labelled his way, but the upside there can't be ignored. It's like Toyota (who I'd rate over him FTR). I don't think Jones is good enough to make up the difference. Besides, Dynamite is clearly the better of the two in their match, his athleticism/execution are/were just phenomenal at that point. Like OJ alluded to, had he stayed in Europe and not gotten his international rep, and had he just recently been "discovered" in the big surge on World of Sport these last few years, he'd be everyone's favourite wrestler right now or not far off it.

 

Benoit vs. Lawler

 

I have ZERO problem watching Benoit. The best comparison I can give is had something happened when Brian Wilson went off the rails, sure it'd "taint" him in the eyes of most critics but the second those first few bars of God Only Knows comes on... I'm not thinking about that at all. Benoit was elite. His and Guerrero's stuff holds up considerably better for me out of the New Japan juniors of that time. Liger and Ohtani's stuff surprisingly (at least with Liger) less so. I have no real objection to Lawler but this "best US worker ever" talk just seems hyperbolic to me. Lawler's more Taue than Kawada. A very good but limited wrestler as opposed to a great one. Fucking love those punches though. Benoit's the better.

Very well explained. And I agree.

[Loss]

If Lawler is "limited", so is Benoit. Ever see Benoit work a good comedy spot?

 

I agree that it's a close call and can go either way, but Lawler as guy who was all punches and schtick is a myth that should have been debunked by now. It's just as frustrating for Lawler fans to hear talk like that as it is for Benoit fans to hear that he didn't have charisma, when both are pretty untrue.

[Childs]

... for me Takada's the best worker of that UWF group.

Takada simply does not look as good if you watch large helpings of his work. His best matches, both in UWF and New Japan, were really great. He made a great fired-up babyface when the spirit moved him and often showed beautiful timing on difficult kick spots. But he had an awful tendency to settle into a knee bar and just lie there at inopportune moments. It was like he thought the mere attempt at a hold was the same as working a real submission. Did Takada ever look great on the mat? I can't think of an instance offhand. And as stiff kicking badasses go, I'll take prime Maeda every time. There was a man who made you believe in his desire to cave in skulls and puncture livers. Takada came off as a flashy pretty boy by comparison.

 

I questioned the Takada backlash that arose during the Other Japan voting on DVDVR. But after a huge helping of his New Japan work, I get it.

[MJH]

I don't have any qualms with someone arguing Benoit was "limited". He got past "no charisma" but he never developed anywhere near the charisma Eddy did. I've seen him work trios in Mexico where he looks hopelessly out of place. Absolutely fantastic but totally out of place doing his ultra-crisp back suplexes whilst Dandy and company are rolling around. But he was clearly an elite talent at his best, whereas I just don't see Lawler as an elite talent. I've enjoyed just about everything I've ever seen him do but I'm not about to argue him over an Eddy Guerrero as Best US Wrestler Of All Time... and if he was where's the greater fame for Lawler as an equal to Harley or Flair or Terry? Talent of that calibre always eventually rises. I'm not saying he wasn't content with his Memphis run - I'm sure he was - but where's the talk of him as a big time player in the NWA title scene, where's the bigger-money interest in him as a national if not international star? Again I greatly enjoy his work, but an elite talent equivalent to where Benoit was at for 10-15 years (who was able to get over in major US promotions pretty much solely on his work) would've surely been a bigger global player? If there's reasons why I'm open to hearing them but it's the same sorta "if Fujiwara was the best ever why are people only making the case for him now..." thing. Elite talent doesn't miss the radar.

[Childs]

Lawler peaked in a different era when national or international stardom was reserved for a few guys. But he felt like a top guy in Memphis more than Benoit ever did anywhere. How many great main events did Benoit work in his life? I can't think of more than a handful. By contrast, a relatively small sampling of Lawler's arena work churned out, what, 20 classic main events from the 1980s? If you don't think his punches, his timing, his selling, his bumping and his connection with the crowd were elite, I don't know what to tell you. I agree that it's not an easy choice but not because Lawler falls short of elite. It's hard because he and Benoit had very different strengths.

 

 

And yes, the U.S. radar for puro greatness really did miss Fujiwara. He just didn't do the things that people were looking for in great puro in the 1990s and early part of this decade. But again, I'm not sure how you can watch his gradual selling of body blows, his punches, his lightning mat counters, the intensity he brought to brawls and say he wasn't elite in those areas. I guess you're just looking for different stuff.

[Tim Evans]

El Hijo del Santo or Negro Casas?

I haven't seen a lot of Santo's early CMLL work but I got to pick Casas here. That man makes Mistico look good and that's hard to do these days.

 

Barry Windham or Arn Anderson?

Arn without a doubt. I think Barry Windham is overrated in some ways. He's a good worker but the only match I really liked of his was vs Murdoch.

 

Hulk Hogan or Dusty Rhodes ?

Dusty and it's not even close. Hogan is a good entertainer and was at the right place at the right time. His WCW stuff is just so god awful. Especially the late 90's/early 2000's. Jingus knows what i'm talking about.

 

Steven Regal or Fit Finlay?

this is hard but i'm going with Regal. Regal's WWE run is underrated and had some surprising matches in WCW.

 

Marty Jannetty or Davey Boy Smith?

Can I pick HBK? I guess I'll pick Marty but i'm not a big fan of either.

 

Atsushi Onita or Mick Foley

Love both these guys but I'll have to go with Foley even though he's a total embarrassment now.

 

Jerry Lawler or Chris Benoit?

Lawler easily. Benoit is a better wrestler but Lawler is a better all around performer.

 

 

Robert Gibson or Matt Hardy?

Gibson. Morton gets all the love in RNR but without Gibson, it wouldn't have worked. Plus I love 1995 SMW Heel Gibson better than Heel Hardy.

 

John Cena or The Rock?

Rock. Hollywood Rock is better than anything Cena's ever done.

 

CM Punk or Diamond Dallas Page?

Punk. I love 97-98 DDP but prior to that, he was pretty bad. Especially in 96.

[ohtani's jacket]

I watched his match with Takada from February 1990 the other night, for instance. Fujiwara looked good. But... not elite. Not better than Takada. The story's a fairly simple one of Takada's dominant, but Fujiwara's wily and able to sneak a shocking win out using cunningness or whatever "there's still something left in this old dog" yadda yadda. But I didn't get that strong a feeling he was selling that story.

That wasn't a shock win. Fujiwara was the No.2 native that year and Takada did a fair number of jobs. The guy they were pushing in Takada's role that year was Funaki, and Fujiwara worked the same way against him. He always worked defensively against strikers.

 

Anyway, Fujiwara smokes Takada as a worker like there's no tomorrow. Every single one of Fujiwara's UWF matches are good, regardless of who the opponent is. Only a handful of Takada's worked shoots are good. There is no big radar for UWF, PWFG or even Showa era New Japan compared to All Japan, so it's not surprising that Fujiwara slipped through the cracks.

 

Elite guys miss the radar all the time. Stuff doesn't get watched, like Memphis, WoS or PWFG, or doesn't get reappraised like Dustin Rhodes in WCW. If you read Dave's comments on early 90s CMLL for example, there's a ton of great workers that Dave didn't get or appreciate.

 

Obviously, there's a fine line between the mentality that Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Liger, Eddie and Benoit are all elite workers and the attitude that newly discovered workers, but if people didn't dig into the past a little they'd be no new movies to enjoy, no good music to discover. Pro-wrestling wouldn't be worth much as a hobby. People change and want different things out of their graps. Work dates and is no longer fresh. The idea that Takada is a great shoot style worker, for example, is a completely dated idea.

 

Oh, and the one really good match Dynamite Kid had in England was against Marty Jones. The Rocco matches could've been great but never had proper finishes.

[Dylan Waco]

Jerry Lawler or Chris Benoit?

 

This is very, very close in some respects, but I think Lawler is better. Part of that is preference as a I prefer the "feels like a fight" style of Memphis and Southern wrestling in general to the junior heavy hybrid of Benoit. And Lawler never did anything in the ring as annoying to me as the rolling german suplex shit that ruined a lot of supposedly "great" Benoit performances. But my main reason for thinking Lawler is better is the fact that the high end Lawler matches have a transcendent feeling to them like you are watching something incredible and special. Benoit's great matches just feel like mechanically sound exhibitions devoid of emotion. There are exceptions, but Lawler combing raw in ring talent with Dusty like charisma is a major plus.

 

Robert Gibson or Matt Hardy?

 

This is actually very close to, but I'll take Matt Hardy. Hardy has looked rough this year, but as a singles worker in 05-07 he was way better than Gibson ever was in tags or singles. Just a consistent guy, who had an authentic classic with Edge of all people (arguably two) and made guys like MVP look like legit great workers. Gibson is a FAR better heel and probably would have been considered an all time great if he played that role more often.

 

John Cena or The Rock?

 

The Rock never had a year as good as Cena's 07, but 07 is starting to look like a diamond in the rough for Cena. Rock has almost all the same plusses as Cena and almost all the same negatives as well. I'm really calling this a wash for now. If I had to pick I'd go with The Rock because he had more great matches.

 

CM Punk or Diamond Dallas Page?

 

In two years the answer may be Punk. Now I think it's Page. Page from 97-99 is one of the most underrated heavyweight wrestlers in recent history.

[Dylan Waco]

Arn without a doubt. I think Barry Windham is overrated in some ways. He's a good worker but the only match I really liked of his was vs Murdoch.

If we are counting tags that's probably not a top fifty Windham match.

[Loss]

Arn was a better day-to-day wrestler, but those Windham/Flair matches are all awesome. Arn has never been in singles matches that good.

[MJH]

I'll admit to being a very sceptical, hard sell on Lawler and Fujiwara. Before them it was Backlund. They strike me as "crazes". I'm not saying that to be outright dismissive of them, and in a lot of ways it's certainly warranted. Backlund was very good at what he did. So was Lawler. Fujiwara I can still swing either way on but he was good, possibly very good, and I'm willing to accept that he might've had a few great matches and/or performances (I just haven't seen them yet). I remember when Backlund really "came out" and people were saying how he carried Takada. How Lawler showed "great knowledge of headlock/base hold counters and spots" against Harley when things like the bridge up spot were routine Harley spots. Fujiwara I can accept as being "very good" but "best ever" is SUCH a jump from someone who had relative anonymity as a worker until fairly recently.

 

I mean I haven't seen the entire Memphis set and there's a few of the highly-touted matches I'm yet to see. I thought the matches with Dundee were great in their setting and for what they were but MOTYC for the decade is a stretch for me. Something like the Empty Arena match and Funk is on another level entirely as a performer, for me. Of course in that case it was really Terry's match to make and Lawler held up his end but putting him over Benoit because his matches "felt bigger, more special", could you not say the same about Hogan? I'm not saying Hogan was as good as Lawler the same way I'm not saying Hogan was better than Benoit before that gets misquoted but I'm saying if I pick a Benoit match off the shelf and a Lawler match and watch them back to back, I'm certain I'd see Benoit as a more gifted, more elite level wrestler. Sure Lawler was great in certain aspects, so was Hogan. At what Hogan was you could hardly get anymore elite... but I'm just calling it as I see it. I'm not dismissing Lawler as a hack or anything, I just think "US worker of the 80s" "best US worker ever?" and all that jazz seem a little over the top to me.

 

With regards to the Fujiwara/Takada thing Dan I don't know... Takada's coming off beating Maeda and Yamazaki. Fujiwara's coming off Maeda's "reassertion" win and would then lose to Yamazaki. Their results stack up throughout the year as relatively equal, both went on to put Funaki over to build him for Maeda, Takada got his win back against Fujiwara... I can buy them as being on the same level, but Fujiwara's reaction to winning surely tells the story? That result, the reaction of both the crowd and him, the feel I get from Fujiwara taking points off Takada, I certainly get the sense he's supposed to be the overmatched of the two in that situation. Takada still looked the better of the two for me, put Fujiwara's schtick over far more than Fuji returned the favour; either way he certainly didn't strike me as on the level that Takada would hit or Jumbo or whomever around that time, but I guess it's an agree to disagree thing. Best Worker of All Time just strikes me as hyperbolic, that's all.

 

--

 

Barry vs. Arn

 

Barry's hit with the same curse of "unfulfilled potential" that paints his work far more negatively than it should. He was certainly a more naturally gifted worker than Arn, and with regards to that a more disappointing wrestler for not having become the successor to Flair or what-have-you but Windham's best stuff is better than Arn's I think. I prefer Tully over Arn too, all-in-all, although in a tag setting they're equal if not Arn taking it, and Arn's promos are the best of the three. But overall as a wrestler I'm taking Barry.

 

Casas vs. Santo

 

Casas at his best is a fantabulastic performer. His charisma and performance in their '87 match is just otherworldly. But I also find him disappointing at various times as well. His Japan stuff doesn't reflect a "Best Mexican Wrestler Ever" rep when you consider how significantly better Eddy adapted. I'm more than willing to accept Eddy as a better fit for the Juniors division, of course, but stuff like the Dandy match in '92 I find terribly disappointing. With Santo, I can agree with Dan's "formula worker" assessment... but at the same time (and maybe as a result) he's a far safer bet for me as someone I'll take a DVD/video of down off the shelf at random, stick it in, and really enjoy it. The Espanto matches (thanks Dan) are great, the Panther stuff, obviously the Casas stuff; something like the Psicosis match from '95 is greatly disappointing to me but that looked more like Psicosis end... Casas at his best is probably better but in this case I'm gonna go for Santo.

[Guest DietSoda]

It's hard because he and Benoit had very different strengths.

Agreed. I did this one because I knew it'd be a toughy and would boil down to stylistic preference.

 

The Rock never had a year as good as Cena's 07, but 07 is starting to look like a diamond in the rough for Cena. Rock has almost all the same plusses as Cena and almost all the same negatives as well. I'm really calling this a wash for now. If I had to pick I'd go with The Rock because he had more great matches.

Really? I agree that Cena isn't at the level he was consistently in 2007, but I'd also blame a lot of that on booking. It's difficult to have great matches in multi-man settings, or with certain handicaps like overbooked finishes.

 

I liked Cena/Michaels more than Rock/HHH for hour-long matches, and felt Cena filled out the hour better than Rock did with the same style limitations.

 

I don't think Rock ever had matches with lesser opponents like Cena did with Khali or Lashley, but those were both in 2007, which only confirms your point.

 

Did Rock really have more great matches? I only REALLY enjoyed Rock/Austin, Rock/HHH and Rock/Jericho as his best work, but feel Cena has delivered on more good-great matches since 2006 on the whole. Stuff like Cena/Edge, Cena/RVD, Cena/Khali, Cena/Michaels, Cena/Umaga, Cena/HHH, Cena/Orton (SS 07 and NWO 08) , Cena/Big Show (the televised matches this year), Cena/Jericho etc I'd put against any of Rocks best (specifically Cena/Umaga), and would say Cena has had more good matches with a wider variety of opponents ranging from awful to great. Rock/Austin WM17 is better than anything Cena has done, true, but that is to be expected, as I'm not sure anything in this era *could* reach that level for a number of reasons beyond just ring work.

 

I think Cena's bumping and selling is better, I think he sets up comebacks better, and I think he has a better sense of match structure than Rock did. Rock was great with maximizing what he did well, much like Cena, but I never got the sense that Rock could have a great match around what his opponents did well, at least not at the same level Cena has proven to be able to. I remember Rock/Test and Rock/Christian being good Rock carryjobs at the time, but neither were Cena/Khali or Cena/Lashley.

 

I do like certain aspects of Rock better like his fired up babyface comebacks and "it" factor, but I don't think they compare in terms of body of work.

[goodhelmet]

Is Fujiwara the best worker of all-time?

 

From my NJ 80s viewing, I have him behind Fujinami, Choshu and Yamada/Liger as guys who consistently kicked ass day-in and day-out. From All Japan 80s vieiwing, I would easily put Choshu, Jumbo and Tenryu above him. For the shoot style guys, I prefer Maeda more. I prefer NJ Murdoch and Vader as gaijin that I would call better than Fujiwara. With that said, Fujiwara does have some absolute classics including one with Inoki that is Top Ten material and Fujiwara-Choshu that is on the Schneider #23 set. I need to re-watch it for the project but remember enjoying it when putting together #23. Phil and Childs claim the guy is a great seller but I don't see it all. In fact, he no-sells a bunch of shit. However, he does have awesome facial expressions especially when playing chickenshit.

 

 

Hogan or Dusty?

 

Hogan in a heartbeat. I have watched a ton of Dusty for the Crockett set and he had some good shit but Hogan has been a revalation on the NJ set. I don't care about ticket sales or any of that bullshit. Means nothing to me. Hogan has had top notch matches with Fujinami, Inoki, Abdullah the Butcher, a really good match with Andre, and some others that will probably just miss the cut.

 

 

Barry vs. Arn?

 

I don't know how it could be said that Barry wasn't a Big Match Worker. His Flair series lived up to the hype and were all pretty great. The Battle of the Belts, the Worldwide match, the Crockett Cup.... not Big Time enough? In fact, Windham's most disappointing match... came against Arn in the 80s viewing. I prefer Arn as an overall performer but prefer Windham in the singles matches. Arn was awesome in almost any Horsemen tag team but was really hit or miss as a singles wrestler.

 

 

Santo or Casas?

 

I just made a 38 disc Santo set. I don't know if I could be objective because Santo is one of those guys I just genuinely mark out for regardless of the opponenet and one of the few sets I made where I wasn't burnt out on the wrestler when it was over.