2009 WON HOF thread

[Sean Liska]

Really, it's almost impossible for me to see a case for HOF entry for anyone based on what they've done in this era. Concepts sell more than stars or grudge matches in the current format, which is why a poorly-promoted Wrestlemania will always get a better buyrate than a B-show with a brilliant buildup. And I think WWE likes it that way because they've created a business model where they can basically rotate the cast and everything ultimately stays the same.

 

I would hear a case for Cena when he's eligible and consider him. Rey I think is HOF slam dunk pick and I don't see a case against him at all. Chris Jericho is to me the ultimate borderline candidate and someone should Gordy List him. But with Edge, I just don't see the value in spending time discussing him as a candidate.

Jericho is a guy I don't think is close and frankly I don't see how he is any better or worse a candidate than Edge. Better worker and a more compelling act overall, but his feud with Michaels was not successful as a buyrate draw and that is the only real feather in his cap over the last few years.

 

No Mercy with Jericho-HBK in the ladder match did one of the better B-show buyrates of the year. Not saying he should be in, but that is a rare case nowadays of a good feud popping business.

[Dylan Waco]

First off, to clarify, the WCWA World Title deal is a little bit more complicated than that. Fritz was already booking Flair a lot less in '85 than in previous years because the NWA wouldn't give Kerry another title reign. According to Gary Hart (and this does make a lot of sense), Watts and Ken Mantell urged Fritz to split from the NWA because that would mean that he wouldn't get NWA backup when they double-crossed him and invaded Dallas/Ft. Worth. The problem wasn't Rude as champion. The problem was suddenly dropping NWA ties after stressing how it's the only real world title for years and then suddenly awarding the new world title to the American Champion without a tournament or anything like that. They were already struggling to some degree with Gino Hernandez's death, the 3rd or 4th Von Erichs-Freebirds feud on top, etc, though Parade of Champions still drew a strong crowd of over 24,000 with Rude-Brody as one of the 3 main events along w/ Brody-Gordy and the zillions Freebirds-Von Erichs match And then Watts raided most of the key talent. And then Kerry had his motorcycle accident. The title didn't become a total joke until Adams left and they decided to put it on Black Bart of all people via phantom win. Anyway, I don't think Rude should be blamed for any of the promotion's problems.

 

Now, I get what you're saying, and on some level I even agree with you, but maybe this is a better way to put it: If say, Chris The Babykiller can go in for just being this overwhelmingly fantastic wrestler who couldn't talk or draw, shouldn't someone like Rude be able to go in for being an overwhelmingly fantastic heel (and a guy who figured out how to have a great match with the Ultimate Warrior without a Pat Patterson main event style layout, which is like whoa) who wasn't a great draw? More like other subjective criteria other than just straight up in-ring ability or "historical impact." There's only one real objective measure in drawing (title reigns shouldn't really count except as a guide to pushes in different areas), and we already have some subjective ones in place, so why not more? In addition to in-ring and impact, why not the top level promo guys, heels, and faces?

 

Oh, and going by your post, shouldn't someone who had a year as best in the world be a strong candidate? Is there anyone who's been best in the world for a decent stretch until the business changes of the last decade who's not a legit HOF candidate?

 

Hennig has similarities, but the run that puts him there was also only about 2.5 years long. At least Rude or even Jake had decade-long runs as their memorable characters. And Edge has had 3 years as a main eventer, at least 1/3 of which was spent on the shelf.

My WCCW point was not well made, which is my own fault. My point was not "Rude killed the territory," my point was that Rude was never a guy that was going to pop a territory despite the fact that he had a gimmick and promo capabilities that made him unique and appealing to promoters and a fair portion of the fan base.

 

As to 92, I'm the only guy I know with that opinion. WCW in 92 was so deep with in ring talent, that you could make a case for Rude outside of the top ten just within his own company. Obviously I disagree, but the point is that Rude is not a consensus pick for best in his company in 92, let alone the World. Perhaps more to the point, there are an awful lot of guys who had great single years in the ring, or as a character, or as a promo, but I wouldn't vote for anyone on that alone. So at best Rude's 92 is a small notch in his belt.

 

On the subject of whether or not good promo/storyline/characters should get in, I'm not completely opposed to the notion. Having said that their are two problems with it. The first is that great faces and heels and promo guys by definition are great because they draw money or interest or both. That is the criteria by which they are judged. If it isn't then again it is all subjective and you'll see people making arguments about 06 Edge being one of the "best heels in history" quickly. Fuck they already do.

 

Second problem is I think even if you were going to go the route of "best heels/faces/promos ought to be thought of on the same level as best in ring workers" Rude is not the first guy to go in or even a serious top choice to go in from that category. I think Jake is a far better candidate in that regard actually as he was a better promo, a great heel, a great face, and was maybe the best I've ever seen on storyline delivery. Arn - who I like but I don't think has any business being in - is maybe the best promo of all time, was a better worker for longer than Rude, and was an incredibly great heel. Tully is another that comes to mind, though I suppose you could make the argument his run wasn't long enough. Still the point is there are a lot of guys I would rate behind Rude in that regard and most of them aren't on the ballot (and never will be).

[Dylan Waco]

Really, it's almost impossible for me to see a case for HOF entry for anyone based on what they've done in this era. Concepts sell more than stars or grudge matches in the current format, which is why a poorly-promoted Wrestlemania will always get a better buyrate than a B-show with a brilliant buildup. And I think WWE likes it that way because they've created a business model where they can basically rotate the cast and everything ultimately stays the same.

 

I would hear a case for Cena when he's eligible and consider him. Rey I think is HOF slam dunk pick and I don't see a case against him at all. Chris Jericho is to me the ultimate borderline candidate and someone should Gordy List him. But with Edge, I just don't see the value in spending time discussing him as a candidate.

Jericho is a guy I don't think is close and frankly I don't see how he is any better or worse a candidate than Edge. Better worker and a more compelling act overall, but his feud with Michaels was not successful as a buyrate draw and that is the only real feather in his cap over the last few years.

 

No Mercy with Jericho-HBK in the ladder match did one of the better B-show buyrates of the year. Not saying he should be in, but that is a rare case nowadays of a good feud popping business.

 

The buyrates were down relative to the year before.

[ohtani's jacket]

Once you get into the Rude/Rocco territory, it just seems like people want their favourite workers in the Hall. I realise Dave has set some bad precedents, but if you let second tier guys in it opens the floodgates. There's a metric shitload of luchadores you could put on the ballot. I'm not even sure what separates Rocco from all the other great WoS workers.

[Herodes]

No way Rocco or any other British wrestler should be in the HOF before Big Daddy. If you're not going to recognise the iconic stars who transcended the sport in their country and were legitamately household names, then why even have a HOF. Same goes for Carlos Colon to a lesser extent. And I just noticed this but I can't believe Cien Caras isn't in the HOF - one of the top headliners and biggest draws in Mexico for a long time and legitamtely has drawing attendance records in Arena Mexico (1990 vs Rayo) and the largest ever wrestling crowd in Mexico (first Triplemania vs Konnan) even drawing sellouts as recently as 2005 in Arena Mexico. The top heel during the first EMLL TV boom in the early 90s and the AAA boom in the mid 90s. Talking about Rude/Rocco is pointless when some of the guys already mentioned aren't in.

[kjh]

When I read the HOF discussion issue this afternoon, I was completely gobsmacked by Dave making a strong case for Edge.

Really? I was completely anticipating it given all the gushing praise Edge has gotten in the Observer as the hottest heel in the business over the last four years. The comp with Murdoch as a worker is a laugh, but it's not like Dave is rewatching 80's Mid South or New Japan like a lot of us here have done recently.

[S.L.L.]

I am way past the point of taking the WON HOF seriously at all. That said....

 

Any business boost that took place when Edge was on top (which I'm not denying existed) would have likely happened no matter who was in that spot. There is almost always a ratings and business boost in the first quarter of the year, which is right after Edge used Money In The Bank.

Loathe as I am to give credit to this guy, I don't think this is true. Cena had been programmed against plenty of heels by that point, and none of them really took, because they were all designed to show him up in some way or another. Edge had a great character that was pitch-perfect to be a Cena foil, and I don't think that should be underestimated. I mean, round one of that feud was followed by Cena/HHH, which undid any progress that the Cena/Edge feud made in one fell swoop. Then they put him back up against Edge, and it really solidified him as the top dog in just the way they needed, and subsequently paved the way for WWE to have it's biggest money making year ever in 2007. If you're going to push Edge as a serious HOF candidate (and you probably shouldn't, but I'm not opposed to putting him on the ballot), I think that's the point you have to hit - he gave Cena the boost that HOFers HHH, Kurt Angle, and fellow nominee Chris Jericho couldn't, and as a direct result, the WWE had something of a mini-boom that saw them make more money in a single year than they ever had before in company history.

 

It's the reason why - after "and you could have a great argument he was [a better worker than Murdoch]" - the thing that really jumps out at me from Meltzer's write-up is his claim that Edge "did more with his talent". I can think of very few wrestlers in recent memory who squandered their talent more than Edge did. Putting aside that he's shit in the ring, he had an act that proved not only to be a viable draw, but one that was tailor-made to oppose the company's new top star. He established what should have been a template for what a "Cena-era" heel should be, and how a "Cena-era" main event feud should have worked. That was a remarkable accomplishment that should not be underplayed. But how did he follow that up? He jumped to Smackdown and completely abandoned everything that made him compelling so he could re-invent himself as "The Ultimate Opportunist" - a poor man's Nick Bockwinkel mixed with a poor man's Bob Roop mixed with the overwrought, unconvincing "psycho" pantomime of Victoria. What a waste.

[Cox]

When I read the HOF discussion issue this afternoon, I was completely gobsmacked by Dave making a strong case for Edge.

Really? I was completely anticipating it given all the gushing praise Edge has gotten in the Observer as the hottest heel in the business over the last four years. The comp with Murdoch as a worker is a laugh, but it's not like Dave is rewatching 80's Mid South or New Japan like a lot of us here have done recently.

 

Maybe I was just hoping that Dave would have learned the Lessons of 2004 Hall of Fame, where voting a guy in based on a 3-4 year body of work is a really terrible idea. It seems particularly inexplicable for Edge since, as noted, he's really been active only about two and a half years of his three and a half year period of being a headliner.

[Bix]

My WCCW point was not well made, which is my own fault. My point was not "Rude killed the territory," my point was that Rude was never a guy that was going to pop a territory despite the fact that he had a gimmick and promo capabilities that made him unique and appealing to promoters and a fair portion of the fan base.

True, but nobody had any chance of popping that specific territory, especially if Brody (the one other guy who seemed to have real drawing power in the area who hadn't grown stale or died) coming in regularly couldn't.

 

As to 92, I'm the only guy I know with that opinion. WCW in 92 was so deep with in ring talent, that you could make a case for Rude outside of the top ten just within his own company. Obviously I disagree, but the point is that Rude is not a consensus pick for best in his company in 92, let alone the World. Perhaps more to the point, there are an awful lot of guys who had great single years in the ring, or as a character, or as a promo, but I wouldn't vote for anyone on that alone. So at best Rude's 92 is a small notch in his belt.

 

On the subject of whether or not good promo/storyline/characters should get in, I'm not completely opposed to the notion. Having said that their are two problems with it. The first is that great faces and heels and promo guys by definition are great because they draw money or interest or both. That is the criteria by which they are judged. If it isn't then again it is all subjective and you'll see people making arguments about 06 Edge being one of the "best heels in history" quickly. Fuck they already do.

 

Second problem is I think even if you were going to go the route of "best heels/faces/promos ought to be thought of on the same level as best in ring workers" Rude is not the first guy to go in or even a serious top choice to go in from that category. I think Jake is a far better candidate in that regard actually as he was a better promo, a great heel, a great face, and was maybe the best I've ever seen on storyline delivery. Arn - who I like but I don't think has any business being in - is maybe the best promo of all time, was a better worker for longer than Rude, and was an incredibly great heel. Tully is another that comes to mind, though I suppose you could make the argument his run wasn't long enough. Still the point is there are a lot of guys I would rate behind Rude in that regard and most of them aren't on the ballot (and never will be).

As you said...those guys aren't on the ballot. I agree that on that theoretical criteria, he's not the first person who should go in, but they're not on the ballot.

 

As far as the rest of what you said, I'm going to sort of reply indirectly and go off on a tangent:

 

Wrestling is weird.

 

Those who saw Archie Gouldie in Calgary pimp him as an incredible heel with great promos who was one of the territory's three best drawing heels. The vast majority of available footage is long after his prime, where he's still an effective heel with good promos, before turning face and cutting as good a single promo as there's ever been. Yet, somehow, he drew more money in the US as a mute Mongolian who had various managers talking for him than as one of the great promos in the history of the business. I'm not necessarily arguing him as an HOFer, but he is someone who was as good a talker as Crispin Wah was a worker, and yet somehow, outside of a backwoods Canadian mountain territory that most of the wrestling business ignored (aside from making fun of the Harts) until 1986, he was a better draw when he never spoke.

 

Ricky Morton was about a year older than CM Punk is now when he started to be considered a stale old guy. He was still Ricky Morton in the ring and barely a year removed from being a major part of his promotion drawing more paid admissions in 1986 than WWE will in 2009 (think about that), but the business changed right as he found the money making gimmick to harness his talent, which kept him (and Robert Gibson) from being able to switch territories and stay fresh.

 

The "serious" HOF for wrestling models itself after real sports HOF, which creates problems. A lot of the time I think it should be modeled after the Rock & Roll HOF. Take Jim Cornette's induction via fiat in '96, which people tend to look at now as a mistake that should've been The Midnight Express & Jim Cornette given that Cornette's non-MX runs aren't HOF-worthy. So now you have the MX act without Cornette as a candidate, which is a mess since he was as much a member of the team as the wrestlers. Why not allow someone to be voted in as part of more than one "act"? Whether it's the MX & Cornette, Ishingundan, or the Four Horsemen, why not? It's a performance. Hell, why not a feud? They're working together as much as, if not more than tag team partners and stablemates. Why can't The Sheik vs Bobo Brazil, Jerry Lawler vs Bill Dundee, R&R vs MX, Santo vs Casas, or other legendary feuds be "acts" nominated for the HOF?

 

No, I have no idea what I'm arguing anymore, but I felt like saying it.

[tomk]

Real busy of late and lots of things want to respond to but:

 

*Curt Hennig

 

Strengths: During his prime years (1987-91), was one of the top five workers in the business.

Meltzer's top five workers between 87-91 would be who?

 

also

 

Konnan

 

Strengths: Helped create AAA

What??

 

BIX:

 

Dave discussing the impact of Saito, Hamada, and Konnan in different countries without mentioning the regional voting issues was strange.

 

Well big problem with Saito is that he feels like a guy who may get the most votes for Japanese category based on positive feelings about his US performances.

[Bix]

Cornette on WOR Re: the HOF:

 

- He thinks Moolah should be in, just because.

 

- Rey "belongs in without question" but things it's better to wait on sure things to make sure the more overlooked types go in before they fade away, like Hans Schmidt.

 

- Thinks Big Daddy was such a big star that he's a no brainer. Ditto Carlos Colon.

 

- "What's the hold-up with Ole and Gene Anderson?" Thinks it's ridiculous to go by lack of traveling.

 

- Edge: "I think he definitely deserves to be in."

 

- Dave's understanding is that Ivan Koloff was rushed out of the WWWF as soon as possible because they were afraid that having the guy who beat Bruno as a regular would lead to riots.

 

- Thinks Konnan should be in for his accomplishments in Mexico, especially if you're voting in any '90s stars from Mexico.

 

There was more but I kinda stopped caring.

[Dylan Waco]

Once you get into the Rude/Rocco territory, it just seems like people want their favourite workers in the Hall. I realise Dave has set some bad precedents, but if you let second tier guys in it opens the floodgates. There's a metric shitload of luchadores you could put on the ballot. I'm not even sure what separates Rocco from all the other great WoS workers.

What Brits should go in over Rocco? Should any Brits go in?

[ohtani's jacket]

You'd have to induct long time stars first like Big Daddy, Giant Haystacks, Nagasaki, Pallo, McManus and probably a few others if you go back to the early days of wrestling on TV. Dave just doesn't seem interested in it as a territory despite the fact wrestling was on ITV for 33 years. I guess it wasn't on his radar when he started the Observer and it's unlikely that he's watched much British or European wrestling.

 

I don't see the argument for Rocco. It seems like he's on the ballot because he followed Dynamite to overseas territories. There were a ton of great workers in the 70s and 80s that were as talented and over as Rocco.

[Bix]

Rocco's super-highly rated by his peers, worked a style more compatible with what people are familiar with in the US and Japan, and has the "Dynamite stole his heel act and did it on a bigger stage" deal. That probably helps him.

[Dylan Waco]

Based on what Kenny McBride and others have said I think Rocco is at worst a decent candidate. Personally I'd vote for Big Daddy, McManus and possibly Nagasaki over him, but after that I don't think any other Brit is demonstrably better as a candidate.

[MJH]

The thing with Big Daddy is... whilst on paper he has to go in, he's also a laughing stock. I recall John's initial pimping of Backlund, talking about how he's recalled in NYC as "embarassing". Big Daddy is that to the infinite degree. He's recalled "fondly" for how shit he was. It's either the most inexplicable thing I've ever seen in wrestling or proof positive that if you push anyone hard enough he'll get over as a star. Probably both. The old British era had a lot of poor workers, with Daddy being one of if not the worst. It's not "remember wrestling on ITV? Daddy and Haystacks, those were the days" more "remember wrestling on ITV? Daddy and Haystacks, what were we thinking!?" laughing at how something so bad was so popular.

 

Rocco was THE worker of his era in Britain. I'm not saying he was the best outright - he certainly had a case - but the first name on everyone's tongue when asked who the guy wass they most respected, besides someone like Les Kellet for his toughness, in terms of wrestling ability, it's ALWAYS Rocco. Always.

[Bix]

By the way, before we start talking about Big Daddy's level of mainstream stardom, is the Big Daddy cartoon an urban legend? I've never seen any evidence of it. Was it an animated series, a comic strip, or what?

[kjh]

Could this be the source of confusion:

 

Long-serving Tiswas writer David McKellar and producer Glyn Edwards had an idea for their new paymasters, Central Television. A new children's show, going out on a weekday afternoon, preferably Wednesday, to be centred around the larger-than-life wrestler 'Big Daddy'. The wrestler had been a popular guest on Tiswas itself a number of times, and had a loyal fanbase of children, housewives and grannies who tuned every Saturday afternoon into the wrestling segments on 'World Of Sport'.

 

Like the 'sport' of wrestling nowadays, the matches were built around feuds between 'good' guys (rule-abiding, smiling and always having time to greet children) and the 'bad' guys (the snarling, cheating brutes who would taunt the audience). Big Daddy was by fair the most prolific 'face' (face being an insider term for any 'good guy' wrestler) on screen, with his nemesis being 'Giant Haystacks'.

 

Although not on the same scale of today's WWE phenomenom, Big Daddy had snowballed into quite a celebrity. He had his own comic strip inside 'Buster', and many of his wrestling shows were sell-outs. Central must have viewed him as a hot property, as they gave their go-ahead to Glyn and David's proposed Big Daddy show for children.

 

THE TISWAS KILLER

 

There was one snag with this proposal. Rather than giving this live show a weekday afternoon slot as expected, the response from Central's management was "right, this is what'll replace Tiswas".

 

So, Tiswas, after a rough final series, and over eight years on air, was belly-flopped off the air. Inadvertantly, two Tiswas workers had a hand in its demise, although it was clear the Central management had been wanting to spring-clean away many ATV shows as they could, to give Central a clean break.

 

With the news of Tiswas being finished, not many were surprised. Central had inherited a good Saturday morning slot and plenty of experienced staff from Tiswas, which it used to its own advantage. The new broadcaster upped its quota of children's programmes, and with the success of Tiswas' legacy, and launched a full presentation strand for children's television on weekdays, across the entire ITV network, labelled 'Children's ITV'.

 

During the summer of 1982, while all the regions did their own thing (usually opting to show a tired diet of movies and cartoons), work began on 'Big Daddy's Saturday Show'. Lots of inserts were filmed at various schools and hospitals with Big Daddy meeting children and fulfilling wishes in a way similar to BBC show 'Jim'll Fix It'.

 

Another BBC idea taken on board was Isla St Clair - the idea was for her to be the sensible co-presenter who, while second-in-command, would really be keeping the show running and ensuring Big Daddy was in check - just like the on-screen act she had as assistant to host Larry Grayson on BBC's 'Generation Game'.

 

Central gave the series plenty of publicity - featuring top-hatted Big Daddy (real name Shirley Crabtree) in lots of press releases.

 

Pretty much the same production team from Tiswas' final series worked on this show. The same studio was used, and animated titles were provided from the artwork of Chris Wroe. Glyn Edwards was on board in his usual role as producer, and writer David McKellar was promoted to assistant producer.

 

"HE'S ON THE YORKSHIRE MOORS"

 

In the week before Big Daddy's Saturday Show was due to air, a Central floor manager, who had worked on Tiswas, was standing at the staff bar in the Birmingham HQ.

 

Big Daddy approached him, having completed a shoot in the studio, and confided in him. "I don't think I'm up to this" said the wrestler, sweating profusely.

 

"Well, you'd better tell them!" said the crew member. "Pulling out now would cause all kinds of problems!"

 

With just seven days to go, a departure of the main host, of whom thousands of pounds worth of publicity had been centred around, would cause a massive headache. Maybe it was the ghost of Tiswas, maybe the Phantom himself, but this nightmare became reality soon enough.

 

Shirley 'Big Daddy' Crabtree did a disappearing act. Over those next few days, he couldn't be contacted anywhere. Even his wife didn't know where he was.

 

The popular rumour is that he was found wandering the Yorkshire Moors by his brother. Whatever it was, he certainly wasn't going to do the programme, despite being legally contracted to do so.

 

A huge panic came from the Central executives, who considered suing Crabtree for tens of thousands of pounds due to breach of contract. However, given the massive popularity of the wrestling star, they thought again, and decided on the mutually beneficial proposal of blaming it on a health scare.

 

Without the main host, Central ordered the production team to get to work on rebranding the show as the more generic 'The Saturday Show'.

 

Tommy Boyd, a jobbing presenter in children's television since his 1970s stint on 'Magpie', was brought in to host the show with Isla, having been considered a safe pair of hands by those who had worked with him before.

 

The two hosts didn't get the benefit of any publicity built around them, and the show went out with some hastily re-edited opening titles, omitting the expensive animated cartoons of Big Daddy, and the show itself was stripped of any references to the wrestler.

 

However, some slight references did remain, probably because the budget was used for them. A huge glitter-festooned throne which Big Daddy would have sat upon thoughout the show, was renamed to the 'Star Chair' and just became a general place for guests to sit. A sequence in the animated titles where children had their dreams granted, had three cartoon kids standing on Big Daddy's gigantic hand. This probably remained as Big Daddy himself wasn't visible.

 

To expect a surrogate ninth series of Tiswas would have left many a flan fan disappointed. A lot of the humour had gone, it was just like any generic children's show.

[Bix]

So he was set to host a kids' show that would include Big Daddy cartoon segments but he quit and they never aired the already-produced cartoon segments.

[MxBx]

There's one of the Buster comic strips here.

[Bix]

Where does the strip stand as far as his cultural significance?

[ohtani's jacket]

I think it would be odd to have a worker as bad as Big Daddy in the HOF, but to say people look back on that era and laugh is not particlarly relevant to the discussion. Most people who watched the WWF during their late 80s boom would have a chuckle about the workers. Maybe not to the extent of Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks, but it's not like Hogan is revered.

 

If you want the total package, I'd go with McManus. Even in his 50s he was a great worker.

 

Rocco needs more than peer recognition. Isn't peer recognition what people rail against come voting time? If you let Rocco in, you have to open the door for guys like George Kidd, Johnny Saint, Jim Breaks, Steve Grey, Marty Jones, Clive Myers, Alan Sarjeant, Vick Faulkner and a host of others. The way Dale Martin's TV worked was that everyone was showcased even guys without reps like Alan Kilby, Mal Sanders, Bobby Ryan, Robbie Baron etc. I actually thought the Rocco Gordy List could've been a hell of a lot better because the TV did run angles and it did have storylines. It was a promotion that was heavy on gimmicks and had plenty of injury storylines, rematches and build-up to title fights. It's kinda like saying lucha TV has no booking or storylines. It does, it's just confusing. Not every match was built around an angle, but often the matches that aired were months old.

 

There's sort of a misperception about WoS that comes from skipping between years and decades. If you narrow it down to what was happening in 1975, for example, there were some clear feuds and some clear booking patterns.

[ohtani's jacket]

BTW, I recommend watching at the beginning of the Big Daddy "This Is Your Life" show to see how gimmicky WoS truly was.

[Dylan Waco]

I think it would be odd to have a worker as bad as Big Daddy in the HOF, but to say people look back on that era and laugh is not particlarly relevant to the discussion. Most people who watched the WWF during their late 80s boom would have a chuckle about the workers. Maybe not to the extent of Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks, but it's not like Hogan is revered.

 

If you want the total package, I'd go with McManus. Even in his 50s he was a great worker.

 

Rocco needs more than peer recognition. Isn't peer recognition what people rail against come voting time? If you let Rocco in, you have to open the door for guys like George Kidd, Johnny Saint, Jim Breaks, Steve Grey, Marty Jones, Clive Myers, Alan Sarjeant, Vick Faulkner and a host of others. The way Dale Martin's TV worked was that everyone was showcased even guys without reps like Alan Kilby, Mal Sanders, Bobby Ryan, Robbie Baron etc. I actually thought the Rocco Gordy List could've been a hell of a lot better because the TV did run angles and it did have storylines. It was a promotion that was heavy on gimmicks and had plenty of injury storylines, rematches and build-up to title fights. It's kinda like saying lucha TV has no booking or storylines. It does, it's just confusing. Not every match was built around an angle, but often the matches that aired were months old.

 

There's sort of a misperception about WoS that comes from skipping between years and decades. If you narrow it down to what was happening in 1975, for example, there were some clear feuds and some clear booking patterns.

 

From what I know, have read and have seen McManus and Nagasaki are probably better overall picks than Daddy, but Daddy feels like a "must" pick for the Brit scene by virtue of the fact that he was a transcendent star on a level no one else was. That might be an oddball way of putting things but that's just how it seems on the surface. Then again I"m not a Brit so..'

 

Also I'd probably vote for George Kidd and Jim Breaks as well.

 

It'll never happen but it'd be interesting to see Meltzer do the group idea Bix and jdw have advocated for. It would also be interested to see Buddy Rose and Bill Dundee pop on the ballot now (though I'm not advocating for either guy).

[Bix]

I'm not saying that the way he's viewed by his peers should necessarily get Rocco in, just that it's a boost that the other Brits on the ballot might not have.

 

Meanwhile, from Kenny McBride posting at WC:

 

The argument against Daddy is pretty strong. He was a horrible, horrible worker. He did draw the two Wembley crowds, but it's arguable that those were part of the changes he and his brother introduced to the way business was done here that hurt the rest of the business. He was hugely famous, but most of the top stars were. Indeed, he's still remembered today, but people who lived through the whole TV era (or most of it, at any rate) remember McManus as the REAL number one guy of all time and think of Daddy as a joke figure. His TV numbers are still pretty impressive in absolute terms - not many American workers from the same era could claim audiences of 4m+ for every single match they had - but he didn't do anything spectacular compared to other guys of his era. He killed of talented heels left and right. Probably almost as many people remember Kendo Nagasaki who was a fascinating character and a far better worker. I did a (pretty rough and ready) Gordy list for him that's around this forum somewhere.

 

I also did one for Rocco. You can find a good bit more discussion on him here. He's clearly the strongest candidate, in my mind. He regularly headlined at the 6000 seater Belle Vue in Manchester which was "sellouts every night." Many wrestlers here consider him superior to Dynamite (it's debatable) and of course, Sayama described as the best he was ever in the ring with. He had more (and longer) title runs than any of the other candidates which suggests he was a strong name to put on top, and his weight division was amongst the strongest and most competitive.

 

McManus was a killer heel. There isn't much footage available of him - he retired in '77 and the archives only go back as far as the mid-70s - but he still gets great reactions and is clearly still a very skilful worker. Was widely respected but not liked by many guys because he reputedly secured his spot at the top of the cards (and his spot as booker for a time) by union-busting in the dressing room.

 

Pallo's a funny one. There's almost no footage of him because he had a falling out with the office and barely appeared on TV after the archives start. His contemporaries hated him, but that's largely because of his book (the excellently titled "You Grunt, I'll Groan") which may have been the first mainstream book to break kayfabe. They felt it would kill the business, naturally. He argued that "fat men in nappies" were more likely to do the job than anything he could say in his book. Was a huge name in the 1960s, but faded quite a bit when he wasn't on TV. People who watched in his day still remember him as THE big star though.

 

For me, Kent Walton is a glaring omission. He was the commentator for almost every show for 33 years which, at some points, was three shows per week. A lot of the terminology he created is still used in the business here today, which is why a lot of non-Brits get confused when hearing a British guy call a match.

 

Billy Riley NEEDS to be on the list too. He trained at least three Hall Of Famers (Gotch, Robinson and Assirati) and was reputedly the best in the world in his day. He also had a hand in training Dynamite, trained John Foley and a raft of top British names. It's arguable that without him, shootfighting would never have happened, and it's absolutely certain that Japanese wrestling would have taken a few very different turns, or at least would have had to find different ways to make the same turns.

 

George Kidd should be on the list somewhere too. He defined the style that most people regard as "British style" - that is, the style of Johnny Saint. Saint was, in fact, just a tremendous copy of Kidd; the Ric Flair to Kidd's Buddy Rogers, if you wee-ull. He was a huge star in Scotland and the only reason he didn't appear on TV was because the TV was almost exclusively recorded in England. While he could have travelled, it would have been a tough slog in the '50s and '60s, and why would he bother anyway? He had a great thing going on his own turf without TV exposure and had several other business interests to take care of. It doesn't change the fact that Kent Walton and Jackie Pallo (amongst many others) have said on record that they thought Kidd was the greatest they ever saw.

 

Johnny Saint, Jim Breaks and Steve Grey - the "holy trinity of lightweight wrestling" - probably deserve consideration one day as well. They were three unique characters who dominated the division for a decade or more. Their matches with each other and with several others are amongst the most interesting stuff you'll see from that era, and show that at times, British wrestling was light years ahead of other countries in terms of pure technical wrestling. Saint in particular had significant influence. You can see shades of his work in Doug Williams and occasionally Bryan Danielson and Nigel McGuinness, while Chris Hero, Colt Cabana and CM Punk all rave about him to anyone who will listen. Hero even got him in to Chikara this year at the age of 60+...and he still looks great!

 

In the link above to the discussion about Rocco, I made a post about the problems (as I see them) in Dave Meltzer's perception of Britain as a territory. I know Dave doesn't think I've got his perceptions right, but it's all based on stuff I've heard him say or seen him write. If you're thinking about voting on British guys, or discussing potential future candidates, it's worth having a look so you know what you're talking about. The system and the style here are not what any other nation is used to, and you need to get your head round the structure of the game so you can make a fair judgement about who really is HOF-worthy and who isn't.