2009 WON HOF thread

[S.L.L.]

At times? Try telling any non-fan that the foremost expert in the wrestling field believes pro wrestling and MMA are the same thing

No he doesnt. In certion aspects he sees similarites but to say he thinks they are the same thing simply isnt true.

 

He has outright said in the past, in no uncertain terms, that MMA is what pro wrestling would be if it were legit. Admittedly, that's not the exact same thing as "MMA = wrestling", but it's close enough.

 

It pretty much is especially when you compare it to some bouts in the early part of the century.

 

It really, really isn't for reasons that I've gone over elsewhere, so I'll direct your attention here. Although I've never hit upon....

 

especially when you compare it to some bouts in the early part of the century.

....OK...having a pretty good familiarity with early wrestling and an understanding of MMA, I see they're similar in that they involve two people fighting...or two people who at least look like their fighting...and three-way matches were happening as early as 1900, so it involves at least two people who at least look like they're fighting. What am I missing?

[Ditch]

--Anyone want to offer opinions on Kensuke Sasaki? I see him as making a strong case for himself in the past 5 years, but I could see the argument of the scene over there isn't what it once was and he floated up the cards just based on attrition.

Sasaki has a much better case than Edge. Headlined way more big shows, won titles everywhere he went, headliner for longer so much longer. I'm sure some would say that Edge has the better "best match" resume, but the vast bulk of that is stunt show matches that really only require a lack of common sense as opposed to knowing how to put together a good match. Edge was never in a straight match a fraction as good as Sasaki/Nakajima vs Kobashi/Shiozaki, or Sasaki vs Kawada. Hell, a straight match as good as Sasaki vs Tenryu 1/4/00. So yeah, make mine Sasaki ahead of Edge.

[Dylan Waco]

I'd also agree that Sasaki is a better candidate.

 

I'm not dead set on the argument that he should be in, but he sucessfully reinvented himself when the business collapsed and the freelancing has made him a commodity of sorts at least to this fan from afar. Was he the first guy to really make a major go of it as a freelancer?

[Tim Evans]

What do you guys think is the main reason why Atlantis never really comes close to getting voted in? The lack of support he gets has always been puzzling to me. 25 years as a featured charismatic player in Arena Mexico and a guy who is one of the elite trios workers in the history of lucha libre, he just seems like a far better pick than a lot of guys in the HOF. Meltzer says he's "not a Hall of Fame worker" but he is an excellent matworker (he probably works better with Blue Panther than anyone else ever), is a great brawler (has some awesome trios brawls against Villano III and of course the famous match from 2000), and was a spectacular high flier in the 1980s. I've seen Atlantis in some trios matches that featured Santo/Casas working against each other and Atlantis has stolen the show from them. His body of work includes some of the best title matches, mask vs mask matches, trios matches and tag team matches of the taped era of lucha libre.

The main reason? Probably Konnan and the fact that Atlantis has never been in AAA.

 

The thing I don't get about this HOF is guys that are currently working getting nominated. When I think Hall of Fame, I think retired guys.

[ohtani's jacket]

Atlantis suffers from timing more than anything else. He broke into the business to late to benefit from the UWA/CMLL cross promotion. By the time he was further up the card, business between the two was all but dead. He had a couple of main even programmes, but I don't think you can call him a consistent draw like Cien Caras for example. Lizmark is already in the HOF, so that hurts him workwise.

 

Jose did a Gordy List for Atlantis that was pretty good -- http://www.luchawiki.org/index.php/Atlantis

[tomk]

Angle: Voted in after 5-6 years in the business. The rules were immediately changed after he was voted in, changing the requirements from 35 years old or 15 years experience to 15 years experience or at least 40 years old with at least 10 years experience, which wouldn't have made him eligible until this year. I have no idea if Angle would get voted in if he first became eligible this year, but he mostly likely wouldn't have gotten in as easily.

Meltzer in his piece describing the difference between the various wrestling HOFs pointed out that what he thinks makes his “special” is the number of voters inside the biz. Angle is in because a large percentage of the Observer voters are people in the biz.

 

Angle is in because insecure pro wrestlers (people inside the biz) are legitimacy marks. Ole writes in his book how none of these guys today could have headline Georgia back in his day because they don’t know how to work and then makes the exception of Kurt Angle. Not because Angle works like Ole but because saying that is functional equivalent of saying “Yeah that stuff I did where I cut the ring in half and such, that’s just like gold level Olympic athletics.”

 

No way to do a HOF voted on by proffesional carnys without Angle getting in.

Angle would have gone in as easily this year as he did originally.

[GSR]

Bryan Alvarez has argued that Angle at his peak was so far beyond anyone ever in the ring that tenure doesn't matter and he's an HOFer.

That's not a credible argument, thats just evidence that Alvarez is an idiot.

 

Oh, I know. Just felt like mentioning it.

 

It was actually much worse in context, if you can believe it.

 

It was Alvarez. I can believe it.

[kjh]

The main reason? Probably Konnan and the fact that Atlantis has never been in AAA.

I think Tim's right, as a lot of voters who are fairly ignorant about Lucha Libre may still vote for Konnan because they know that he was such a huge draw in the early 1990's, which makes it much harder for the other candidates to get close to 60% support.

[Bix]

Angle: Voted in after 5-6 years in the business. The rules were immediately changed after he was voted in, changing the requirements from 35 years old or 15 years experience to 15 years experience or at least 40 years old with at least 10 years experience, which wouldn't have made him eligible until this year. I have no idea if Angle would get voted in if he first became eligible this year, but he mostly likely wouldn't have gotten in as easily.

Meltzer in his piece describing the difference between the various wrestling HOFs pointed out that what he thinks makes his “special” is the number of voters inside the biz. Angle is in because a large percentage of the Observer voters are people in the biz.

 

Angle is in because insecure pro wrestlers (people inside the biz) are legitimacy marks. Ole writes in his book how none of these guys today could have headline Georgia back in his day because they don’t know how to work and then makes the exception of Kurt Angle. Not because Angle works like Ole but because saying that is functional equivalent of saying “Yeah that stuff I did where I cut the ring in half and such, that’s just like gold level Olympic athletics.”

 

No way to do a HOF voted on by proffesional carnys without Angle getting in.

Angle would have gone in as easily this year as he did originally.

 

I'm not so sure. He would've probably gotten in but there has to be a decent amount of guys who find him embarrassing, both for being so publicly nuts and being in TNA.

[Bix]

Former WWE writer on the Hall of Fame and his favorite wrestler growing up

 

I know I don't get to vote, but:

 

As a young teenager, I was a huge fan of Roy Shire's San Francisco promotion in the early and mid-1970s. I kept track of win/loss results, ranked wrestlers, made lists of dream matches. When I walked into the Cow Palace, I felt the electricity that other people feel at rock concerts. I felt more excited, more alive there than anywhere else.

 

Rocky Johnson was the face I loved best. He ranked above even Peter Maivia, Pat Patterson and Ray Stevens in my pantheon of the greats.

 

Johnson participated in some of the most exciting matches I've ever had the pleasure to witness. (In fact, the television match in which he and Maivia won a non-title bout against tag champions Patterson and Billy Graham was one of the two best TV matches I ever saw, with Maivia's non-title defeat of U.S. Champion Paul DeMarco being the other.)

 

His hot tag was fantastic. And his Ali shuffle, flying dropkick, headbutt, and Boston Crab were the most electrifying finishing combination I've ever seen.

 

And while I probably think of him primarily as a tag wrestler, due to his domination (with Pepper Gomez and then Patterson) of the tag title and his epic wars with first Patterson-Graham and then DeMarco-Lars Anderson, I was thrilled when he took the U.S. title from DeMarco, the man who'd ended Stevens' incredible series of title reigns.

 

When it comes to the HOF, if I could vote I would vote for the Soulman, one of the greatest heroes I ever had.

[Dan]

Hypothetical question: If Angle hadn't already been voted in, would the fact that no one watches TNA help or hurt him?

[Bix]

*Kensuke Sasaki

 

Strengths: ...Holds an MMA win over former UFC fighter Christian Wellisch, although since it was on his own show, you have the right to be suspicious...

What...

*Jimmy Snuka

 

Strengths: ...Former competition bodybuilder...

...seriously, what...

*Tim “Mr. Wrestling” Woods

 

Strengths: Tremendous amateur, AAU national champion, Olympic hopeful and two-time NCAA runner-up with only two losses in his collegiate career and one of the best pinning percentages in college wrestling history...

...I'm not kidding, what...

*Jesse Ventura

 

Strengths: ...He also became one of the best known pro wrestlers on a national basis outside of wrestling when he served a term as Governor of Minnesota...

...the hell?

[kjh]

Maybe tomk spoke too soon about shooting ability no longer being an overrated quality in a wrestler.

[Dylan Waco]

When can we disqualify Meltzer from voting for his own HoF?

[El-P]

JR, get out of this body.

[Cox]

Since the Angle induction, it's clear that Meltzer has valued outside of wrestling achievements as much as contributions inside the ring. I'm pretty sure Angle's whole candidacy came down to "Won the gold medal and then became a pro wrestler." Of course, that's ridiculous, it would be like somebody pointing out Deion Sanders' baseball achievements as a reason to put him in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

[Indikator]

*Hans Schmidt

Weaknesses: Was never a star as Guy LaRose,

Sayama should be disqualified because he wasn't a star prior to his Sammy Lee gimmick. Ditto for about every possible NJPW contender who had a name change after their rookie years. Good lord how bad is that argument. "You were not successful as a rookie. Although we gave you a new name/gimmick as a way to jumpstart your career after you've managed to learn the trade as a rookie you are deemed a failure because you weren't a super rookie - I guess"

[Dylan Waco]

The arguments are terrible and so stupid that I can only conclude he doesn't actually mean them.

[Sean Liska]

Since the Angle induction, it's clear that Meltzer has valued outside of wrestling achievements as much as contributions inside the ring. I'm pretty sure Angle's whole candidacy came down to "Won the gold medal and then became a pro wrestler." Of course, that's ridiculous, it would be like somebody pointing out Deion Sanders' baseball achievements as a reason to put him in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

I believe the popular line being thrown around was that he's the only guy ever who was once the best in the world as an amateur and best in the world as a pro.

 

I don't think all of the arugments Dave's making on the positives and negatives of candidates are necessarily things he believes strongly. He's just going down the list of eligible candidates and giving reasons why people may or may not vote for someone.

[Bix]

I don't believe that there's anyone who thinks that Snuka's competitive bodybuilding history strengthens his case at HOFer. Other than maybe Dave.

[Tim Evans]

So does that mean Brian Gamble is going in the hall of fame cause we all know Meltzer has a hard on for Roller Derby.

[Indikator]

I should be optimistic. With competitive bodybuilding as a factor a couple of old school Europeans will get into the HoF. Andre Drapp is a shoe in!

 

(actually, he might be a possible contender if he had enough big houses around 1950 when pretty much all western Europe had a boom period)

[Cox]

Since the Angle induction, it's clear that Meltzer has valued outside of wrestling achievements as much as contributions inside the ring. I'm pretty sure Angle's whole candidacy came down to "Won the gold medal and then became a pro wrestler." Of course, that's ridiculous, it would be like somebody pointing out Deion Sanders' baseball achievements as a reason to put him in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

I believe the popular line being thrown around was that he's the only guy ever who was once the best in the world as an amateur and best in the world as a pro.

 

It's still not relevant to a pro wrestling Hall of Fame discussion. Barry Bonds was one of the greatest college baseball players of all time, and arguably the greatest pro baseball player of all time. Yet I don't think we're going to hear anybody talking about his exploits at Arizona State when he becomes eligible for the Hall of Fame, and there are a LOT more similarities between college and pro baseball and amateur and professional wrestling. That doesn't even weigh into account that Angle was pretty far from the best pro wrestler of all time, either.

[ohtani's jacket]

To hell with this, Dave is awesome. I wanna see how good this gets. Big Daddy was a summer lifeguard y'know.

[Sean Liska]

Since the Angle induction, it's clear that Meltzer has valued outside of wrestling achievements as much as contributions inside the ring. I'm pretty sure Angle's whole candidacy came down to "Won the gold medal and then became a pro wrestler." Of course, that's ridiculous, it would be like somebody pointing out Deion Sanders' baseball achievements as a reason to put him in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

I believe the popular line being thrown around was that he's the only guy ever who was once the best in the world as an amateur and best in the world as a pro.

 

It's still not relevant to a pro wrestling Hall of Fame discussion. Barry Bonds was one of the greatest college baseball players of all time, and arguably the greatest pro baseball player of all time. Yet I don't think we're going to hear anybody talking about his exploits at Arizona State when he becomes eligible for the Hall of Fame, and there are a LOT more similarities between college and pro baseball and amateur and professional wrestling. That doesn't even weigh into account that Angle was pretty far from the best pro wrestler of all time, either.

 

I didn't agree with it. The Angle thing is when I personally stopped even caring about the Observer HOF. I just shake my head now when I read that Curt Hennig was a top-5 worker in the world from 87-91 or when I read that Kurt deserves to go in just because at his peak he was on such a different level from every other worker.