Dave Meltzer stuff

[ohtani's jacket]

Yeah, she's going to fund him again as she's clearly setting her company up as one that funds directors like Anderson, as opposed to her brother who is commercially driven, but she got burnt on The Master and from all accounts has learnt from it. It doesn't sound like she has aspirations to be a money mark (or "dumb money" as they call it in Hollywood.) It seems like she wants to be legitimately successful. From what I can tell, Ellison is a mark for P.T.A, but The Master was expected to do better than it did and it wasn't entirely the case of Ellison being altruistic.

 

Last Temptation ended up breaking even, but the studio went to great lengths to try to make money from it. They took out full page ads in newspapers to try to combat the negative attention the film drew and as I said they had the theatre release deal in place.

 

Anyway, we better can the movie talk.

[flyonthewall2983]

Actually, Warner Bros. is financing PTA's next picture.

[Slasher]

Wikipedia says her Annapurna Pictures studio was started with the idea of giving an opportunity to moviemakers to be daring, to create films meant to provoke, bring back the prestige films in today's Hollywood risk averse world. That lends credibility to the idea Megan Ellison isn't necessarily in it to make money. Of course, Terminator 5 doesn't scream prestige film...

[ohtani's jacket]

She's certainly not in it for the money as a) she doesn't need any and she's writing cheques out of her own pocket, but distribution companies are most certainly in it for the money and if she wants to continue to be a successful producer and not just a financial backer then she's going to need to be smarter at the business side of things. She's quite an inexperienced producer and really the only difference between her and every other hopeful is that she's a film buff with a two billion dollar inheritance. I didn't know P.T.A had gone to Warner Bros. Evidently, he cares about money. Apparently, he's quite the carnie and might have pulled one over Ellison a bit, to make this wrestling related.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

WHO WAS THE GREATEST ATHLETIC FREAK WHO WAS A REGULAR PRO WRESTLER?

Brock Lesnar 48.9%

Kurt Angle 22.6%

Danny Hodge 14.6%

Doug Furnas 5.1%

Shelton Benjamin 2.9%

Jumbo Tsuruta 1.8%

Don Leo Jonathan 1.5%

Bronko Nagurski 1.5%

Jack Brisco 0.7%

Leo Nomellini 0.4%

I'm surprised in some ways that Lesnar gets such a strong plurality. Though "athletic freak" is broad, I see athleticism as being very coordinated. In UFC, Lesnar's stand-up was frequently criticized by UFC critics and that his winning fights depended more on his brute strength where he could overwhelm opponents by mauling them. Regardless - and it's obvious why he wouldn't qualify - but I think Chris Benoit was more athletic than Lesnar. Angle's amateur career was much more distinguished, and his coordination was uncanny. Maybe people use Danny Puder's shoot against him, which would be unfair as Angle had no such training. I haven't seen much Danny Hodge footage, but I've read stories where even in conventions today, at 80-years-old, he can handle himself quite well against younger amateurs. Shelton Benjamin is undoubtedly athletic, hyper athletic even, but I didn't think much of his working ability (not a factor in that question, of course) any time I've seen him live; he's a guy who needed more guidance in putting matches together imo. It's disappointing to see Jack Brisco not get many votes. Brisco was by far the best athlete of his era next to Hodge.

[Slasher]

WHO WAS THE GREATEST ATHLETIC FREAK WHO WAS A REGULAR PRO WRESTLER?

Brock Lesnar 48.9%

Kurt Angle 22.6%

Danny Hodge 14.6%

Doug Furnas 5.1%

Shelton Benjamin 2.9%

Jumbo Tsuruta 1.8%

Don Leo Jonathan 1.5%

Bronko Nagurski 1.5%

Jack Brisco 0.7%

Leo Nomellini 0.4%

I'm surprised in some ways that Lesnar gets such a strong plurality. Though "athletic freak" is broad, I see athleticism as being very coordinated. In UFC, Lesnar's stand-up was frequently criticized by UFC critics and that his winning fights depended more on his brute strength where he could overwhelm opponents by mauling them. Regardless - and it's obvious why he wouldn't qualify - but I think Chris Benoit was more athletic than Lesnar. Angle's amateur career was much more distinguished, and his coordination was uncanny. Maybe people use Danny Puder's shoot against him, which would be unfair as Angle had no such training. I haven't seen much Danny Hodge footage, but I've read stories where even in conventions today, at 80-years-old, he can handle himself quite well against younger amateurs. Shelton Benjamin is undoubtedly athletic, hyper athletic even, but I didn't think much of his working ability (not a factor in that question, of course) any time I've seen him live; he's a guy who needed more guidance in putting matches together imo. It's disappointing to see Jack Brisco not get many votes. Brisco was by far the best athlete of his era next to Hodge.

 

Brock was a 300 pound brickhouse doing shooting star presses at Wrestlemania without much practice, he won the top UFC title even if he just mauled his way into it, and he is a guy no one doubts would destroy everyone if he puts his mind to it... Yeah he's a freak of nature.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

WHO WAS THE GREATEST ATHLETIC FREAK WHO WAS A REGULAR PRO WRESTLER?

Brock Lesnar 48.9%

Kurt Angle 22.6%

Danny Hodge 14.6%

Doug Furnas 5.1%

Shelton Benjamin 2.9%

Jumbo Tsuruta 1.8%

Don Leo Jonathan 1.5%

Bronko Nagurski 1.5%

Jack Brisco 0.7%

Leo Nomellini 0.4%

I'm surprised in some ways that Lesnar gets such a strong plurality. Though "athletic freak" is broad, I see athleticism as being very coordinated. In UFC, Lesnar's stand-up was frequently criticized by UFC critics and that his winning fights depended more on his brute strength where he could overwhelm opponents by mauling them. Regardless - and it's obvious why he wouldn't qualify - but I think Chris Benoit was more athletic than Lesnar. Angle's amateur career was much more distinguished, and his coordination was uncanny. Maybe people use Danny Puder's shoot against him, which would be unfair as Angle had no such training. I haven't seen much Danny Hodge footage, but I've read stories where even in conventions today, at 80-years-old, he can handle himself quite well against younger amateurs. Shelton Benjamin is undoubtedly athletic, hyper athletic even, but I didn't think much of his working ability (not a factor in that question, of course) any time I've seen him live; he's a guy who needed more guidance in putting matches together imo. It's disappointing to see Jack Brisco not get many votes. Brisco was by far the best athlete of his era next to Hodge.

 

Brock was a 300 pound brickhouse doing shooting star presses at Wrestlemania without much practice, he won the top UFC title even if he just mauled his way into it, and he is a guy no one doubts would destroy everyone if he puts his mind to it... Yeah he's a freak of nature.

 

No one doubts he's a freak of nature. That's why there were options. Concerning the shooting star press (which was botched, though he did have an intense 20-minute match), he used to do that move regularly during his OVW days.

[Slasher]

I know he was doing the SSP in OVW, but at Mania, he pulled it out after not having done it for a year. I doubt he was doing SSPs at house shows in the run up to Mania. That is an impressive thing to me, for a guy his size to take a year off from the move then do it at the biggest show after 20 minutes of intense wrestling.

[jdw]

I like Firefly. Can stumble upon it anytime and enjoy an episode. It's a really good TV show. But... I couldn't call it the greatest/best SciFi tv program of all time because in the end it failed.

 

Wonderful, arguably "great" series on some levels. But SciFi GOAT, or even candidate? It really can't be: it failed, to the point that it didn't even finish a season.

To be fair almost every show "fails". Most TV shows are cancelled; few end on their own terms. Twilight Zone and Star Trek, both typically regarded as the finest Sci-Fi shows ever produced, were both cancelled, were they failures? Twin Peaks was cancelled in season 2 and yet is still regarded as one of the greatest shows of all-time. The Honeymooners was cancelled after one season! I'm not sure your argument about TV shows is valid.

Twilight Zone went 5 seasons, 150+ episodes.

 

Star Trek got saved to run a 3rd season and had 75+ episodes.

 

You're misrepresenting the history of the Honeymooners: it was a Gleason skit on COS and TJGS the prior four seasons, with the last two seasons seeing the vast majority of skits being even longer than the "series" episodes were. By the end of the first season of the series, it was less "cancelled" than CBS and Gleason agreed to end it as a series and go back to TJGS. The Honeymooners skits appeared on most of the shows Gleason appeared on, obviously not on the ones with guests hosts. To a degree, it ran for 6 straight seasons, not 1. The first two as a key regular skit on Gleason's variety show, the next two as the dominant part of the show. Then broken out into it's own stand alone show, before being rolled back into a variety show format but before long becoming the dominant element of the show when Gleason was on it. That's not even getting into Gleason going to the well with it another 60+ times in the 60s, 70s and 80s on various shows of his and specials. That's all part of the legend of the Honeymooners, rather than limiting it to the "Classic 39". I'm sure if I asked my folks when I'm down there for Mothers Day about the Honeymooners, they talk about TJGS skits as well as the series, and my Dad would likely mention Cavalcade just because his memory of all that stuff remains sharp (don't even get him started one the dozens of Westerns form the 50s and 60s ).

 

Firefly got cancelled before it's first season was done, with just 14 episodes produced, of which Fox chose to air only 11... not to mention butchered the airing order.

 

There's a difference between getting cancelled like say CSI: Miami did after 220+ episodes and 10 seasons, including several years of allegedly being the most popular tv show in the world... and bombing out before you get a season done.

 

The show Profit was pretty freaking choice, was well ahead of its time in edginess... but it got pulled after 4 episodes, and it was years before the remaining four episodes saw the light of say in the US. I'm wildly entertained by the show, but it's not a GOAT candidate.

[evilclown]

Regardless - and it's obvious why he wouldn't qualify - but I think Chris Benoit was more athletic than Lesnar.

I will be polite and simply ask why you believe that to be true?

[Grimmas]

WHO WAS THE GREATEST ATHLETIC FREAK WHO WAS A REGULAR PRO WRESTLER?

Brock Lesnar 48.9%

Kurt Angle 22.6%

Danny Hodge 14.6%

Doug Furnas 5.1%

Shelton Benjamin 2.9%

Jumbo Tsuruta 1.8%

Don Leo Jonathan 1.5%

Bronko Nagurski 1.5%

Jack Brisco 0.7%

Leo Nomellini 0.4%

Where is Goldberg on this list?

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Where is Mark fucking Henry?

[Al]

Bob Backlund feels like he might belong on such a list. Maybe the Iron Sheik in his early days. One or more of the Von Erichs.

[cabinboy454]

I like Firefly. Can stumble upon it anytime and enjoy an episode. It's a really good TV show. But... I couldn't call it the greatest/best SciFi tv program of all time because in the end it failed.

 

Wonderful, arguably "great" series on some levels. But SciFi GOAT, or even candidate? It really can't be: it failed, to the point that it didn't even finish a season.

To be fair almost every show "fails". Most TV shows are cancelled; few end on their own terms. Twilight Zone and Star Trek, both typically regarded as the finest Sci-Fi shows ever produced, were both cancelled, were they failures? Twin Peaks was cancelled in season 2 and yet is still regarded as one of the greatest shows of all-time. The Honeymooners was cancelled after one season! I'm not sure your argument about TV shows is valid.

Twilight Zone went 5 seasons, 150+ episodes.

 

Star Trek got saved to run a 3rd season and had 75+ episodes.

 

You're misrepresenting the history of the Honeymooners: it was a Gleason skit on COS and TJGS the prior four seasons, with the last two seasons seeing the vast majority of skits being even longer than the "series" episodes were. By the end of the first season of the series, it was less "cancelled" than CBS and Gleason agreed to end it as a series and go back to TJGS. The Honeymooners skits appeared on most of the shows Gleason appeared on, obviously not on the ones with guests hosts. To a degree, it ran for 6 straight seasons, not 1. The first two as a key regular skit on Gleason's variety show, the next two as the dominant part of the show. Then broken out into it's own stand alone show, before being rolled back into a variety show format but before long becoming the dominant element of the show when Gleason was on it. That's not even getting into Gleason going to the well with it another 60+ times in the 60s, 70s and 80s on various shows of his and specials. That's all part of the legend of the Honeymooners, rather than limiting it to the "Classic 39". I'm sure if I asked my folks when I'm down there for Mothers Day about the Honeymooners, they talk about TJGS skits as well as the series, and my Dad would likely mention Cavalcade just because his memory of all that stuff remains sharp (don't even get him started one the dozens of Westerns form the 50s and 60s ).

 

 

One of the reasons they agreed to cancel the Honeymooners is because it went from the #2 show to the #19 show within one season. That is a massive drop in viewership over the course of one season.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

Regardless - and it's obvious why he wouldn't qualify - but I think Chris Benoit was more athletic than Lesnar.

I will be polite and simply ask why you believe that to be true?

 

Benoit seemed a lot more coordinated. Granted, wrestling is worked, but there was something fluid about his motions that it would have required an impressive degree of coordination to pull off his style. He moves just as well as Angle, who is an Olympic gold medalist. Lesnar's athleticism depended more on his brute strength than his coordination, hence my decision. It's not that Lesnar had no coordination. His coordination had to be strong. But his advantage in MMA came more from his brute strength than his stand-up, which is coordination-dependent. That strength almost got him on the Vikings. To give an example, I think Marty Jannetty was more athletic than Shawn Michaels. The former's motions were more fluid and effortless. Michaels seemed to have practiced a lot.

 

Do you think professional athletes are on a whole other playing field of athleticism in comparison to the elite of pro-wrestling's athletes?

[cabinboy454]

I like Firefly. Can stumble upon it anytime and enjoy an episode. It's a really good TV show. But... I couldn't call it the greatest/best SciFi tv program of all time because in the end it failed.

 

Wonderful, arguably "great" series on some levels. But SciFi GOAT, or even candidate? It really can't be: it failed, to the point that it didn't even finish a season.

To be fair almost every show "fails". Most TV shows are cancelled; few end on their own terms. Twilight Zone and Star Trek, both typically regarded as the finest Sci-Fi shows ever produced, were both cancelled, were they failures? Twin Peaks was cancelled in season 2 and yet is still regarded as one of the greatest shows of all-time. The Honeymooners was cancelled after one season! I'm not sure your argument about TV shows is valid.

Twilight Zone went 5 seasons, 150+ episodes.

 

 

 

TZ's 5 season run was average at the time. Although a critical smash the show was viewed as a disappointment by CBS. In fact, CBS nearly cancelled the show in the first season. TZ did not become the massive success it is today until it was put in syndication after it was cancelled.

 

Also, when you compare TZ's run with many of the other iconic shows of that period it isn't impressive. Make Room for Daddy ran for 11 seasons, Alfred Hitchcock Presents 10 seasons, Lassies 19 seasons, Bonanza 14 seasons, Gunsmoke 20 seasons. 5 to 6 seasons was an average at best run.

[Slasher]

Only because Rod Serling was so possessive of the show he just wasn't going to let anyone take a crack at running it. Five years of quality content from ONE guy is pretty good if you ask me. The other shows cycled creative members pretty regularly, IIRC.

[cabinboy454]

Only because Rod Serling was so possessive of the show he just wasn't going to let anyone take a crack at running it. Five years of quality content from ONE guy is pretty good if you ask me. The other shows cycled creative members pretty regularly, IIRC.

I agree, TZ is an amazing show. I only meant that a show lasting 5 seasons at that time wasn't a big deal. The quality of the show is not in doubt. TZ is easily one of the great TV programs of all-time.

 

EDIT: Serling continued to produce quality work post-TZ with the underrated Night Gallery and Planet of the Apes.

[jdw]

I like Firefly. Can stumble upon it anytime and enjoy an episode. It's a really good TV show. But... I couldn't call it the greatest/best SciFi tv program of all time because in the end it failed.

 

Wonderful, arguably "great" series on some levels. But SciFi GOAT, or even candidate? It really can't be: it failed, to the point that it didn't even finish a season.

To be fair almost every show "fails". Most TV shows are cancelled; few end on their own terms. Twilight Zone and Star Trek, both typically regarded as the finest Sci-Fi shows ever produced, were both cancelled, were they failures? Twin Peaks was cancelled in season 2 and yet is still regarded as one of the greatest shows of all-time. The Honeymooners was cancelled after one season! I'm not sure your argument about TV shows is valid.

Twilight Zone went 5 seasons, 150+ episodes.

 

Star Trek got saved to run a 3rd season and had 75+ episodes.

 

You're misrepresenting the history of the Honeymooners: it was a Gleason skit on COS and TJGS the prior four seasons, with the last two seasons seeing the vast majority of skits being even longer than the "series" episodes were. By the end of the first season of the series, it was less "cancelled" than CBS and Gleason agreed to end it as a series and go back to TJGS. The Honeymooners skits appeared on most of the shows Gleason appeared on, obviously not on the ones with guests hosts. To a degree, it ran for 6 straight seasons, not 1. The first two as a key regular skit on Gleason's variety show, the next two as the dominant part of the show. Then broken out into it's own stand alone show, before being rolled back into a variety show format but before long becoming the dominant element of the show when Gleason was on it. That's not even getting into Gleason going to the well with it another 60+ times in the 60s, 70s and 80s on various shows of his and specials. That's all part of the legend of the Honeymooners, rather than limiting it to the "Classic 39". I'm sure if I asked my folks when I'm down there for Mothers Day about the Honeymooners, they talk about TJGS skits as well as the series, and my Dad would likely mention Cavalcade just because his memory of all that stuff remains sharp (don't even get him started one the dozens of Westerns form the 50s and 60s ).

 

 

One of the reasons they agreed to cancel the Honeymooners is because it went from the #2 show to the #19 show within one season. That is a massive drop in viewership over the course of one season.

 

Sure. It also went right back to being an anchor of TJGS, making it the fifth straight year it was fixture in CBS' lineup, on top of the year before on another network.

 

John

[evilclown]

Regardless - and it's obvious why he wouldn't qualify - but I think Chris Benoit was more athletic than Lesnar.

I will be polite and simply ask why you believe that to be true?

 

Benoit seemed a lot more coordinated. Granted, wrestling is worked, but there was something fluid about his motions that it would have required an impressive degree of coordination to pull off his style. He moves just as well as Angle, who is an Olympic gold medalist.

 

That's honestly flabbergasting to me. Benoit never seemed to have an athletic bone in his body. Owen Hart was fluid. Benoit was borderline robotic. He moved like a guy who never played sports. Like, if you asked him to run across the parking lot after a show, it would be downright comical. I'm, right now, trying to picture Chris Benoit playing pickup basketball. It's making me laugh.

[jdw]

I like Firefly. Can stumble upon it anytime and enjoy an episode. It's a really good TV show. But... I couldn't call it the greatest/best SciFi tv program of all time because in the end it failed.

 

Wonderful, arguably "great" series on some levels. But SciFi GOAT, or even candidate? It really can't be: it failed, to the point that it didn't even finish a season.

To be fair almost every show "fails". Most TV shows are cancelled; few end on their own terms. Twilight Zone and Star Trek, both typically regarded as the finest Sci-Fi shows ever produced, were both cancelled, were they failures? Twin Peaks was cancelled in season 2 and yet is still regarded as one of the greatest shows of all-time. The Honeymooners was cancelled after one season! I'm not sure your argument about TV shows is valid.

Twilight Zone went 5 seasons, 150+ episodes.

 

 

 

TZ's 5 season run was average at the time.

 

?

 

Here are the shows that debuted in the 1959/60 on ABC, NBC and CBS:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1959%E2%80%93...vision_schedule

 

14 - Bonanza

 

5 - The Twilight Zone

 

4 - Dennis the Menace

4 - Hawaiian Eye

4 - Laramie

4 - The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis

4 - The Untouchables

 

3 - Adventures in Paradise

3 - The Detectives Starring Robert Taylor

3 - Hennesey

 

2 - The Deputy

2 - The DuPont Show with June Allyson

2 - The Rebel

2 - Riverboat

2 - Take a Good Look

 

1 - The Alaskans

1 - The Betty Hutton Show

1 - Bourbon Street Beat

1 - Charley Weaver's Hobby Lobby

1 - The Dennis O'Keefe Show

1 - Diagnosis: Unknown

1 - Dick Clark's World of Talent

1 - Fibber McGee and Molly

1 - Five Fingers

1 - Hotel de Paree

1 - John Gunther's High Road

1 - Johnny Ringo

1 - Johnny Staccato

1 - The Kate Smith Show

1 - Law of the Plainsman

1 - Love and Marriage

1 - The Man and the Challenge

1 - Men into Space

1 - Mr. Lucky

1 - NBC Sunday Showcase

1 - Overland Trail

1 - Philip Marlowe

1 - Startime

1 - Tightrope

1 - The Troubleshooters

1 - Wichita Town

 

TZ was the second longest running debut of the year. The "average" length of those debuts was 2.05 seasons, which actually overstates the length: a lot of those "1 seasons" shows were like Firefly: pulled before completing their season, or midyear replacements. I didn't bother spending a lot of time looking at them since I just wanted to quick & dirty this, but even then I noticed one of those didn't even air the full slate of shows filmed... just like Firefly.

 

5 years was far from "average".

 

 

Although a critical smash the show was viewed as a disappointment by CBS. In fact, CBS nearly cancelled the show in the first season. TZ did not become the massive success it is today until it was put in syndication after it was cancelled.

TZ was "nearly cancelled", and then went on to have 3 full seasons, one year as a mid-season replacement, and then a 5th season as a fulltime show.

 

Firefly got cancelled during the production of it first season, before that full season of episodes were produced, and Fox chose not to air 3 episodes it had in the can... for years.

 

Are you seriously trying to tell me they're the same thing?

 

 

Also, when you compare TZ's run with many of the other iconic shows of that period it isn't impressive. Make Room for Daddy ran for 11 seasons, Alfred Hitchcock Presents 10 seasons, Lassies 19 seasons, Bonanza 14 seasons, Gunsmoke 20 seasons. 5 to 6 seasons was an average at best run.

5-6 seasons isn't remotely average.

 

Roughly 177 shows debuted in primetime during the time Twilight Zone was on the tube. They ran for roughly 374 seasons. That's an average of 2.11 seasons per new show.

 

These are the shows that went longer than TZ:

 

14 Bonanza

12 My Three Sons

10 The Bell Telephone Hour

9 The Beverly Hillbillies

9 The Virginian

8 The Andy Griffith Show

7 Petticoat Junction

6 The Flintstones

6 Ben Casey

6 The Lucy Show

 

Just 10 out of 177.

 

These are the shows that went as long as TZ:

 

5 The Twilight Zone

5 The Dick Van Dyke Show

5 Dr. Kildare

5 Hazel

5 Combat!

5 The Andy Williams Show

 

Six.

 

By number of seasons:

 

4 - 16 shows

3 - 12 shows

2 - 24 shows

1 - 109 shows

 

109 of 177 shows were either cancelled in their first season, or didn't get a second season.

 

The *average* TV show that debuted in the years TZ was on the air... didn't get a second season. Like Firefly.

 

TZ's 5 years was well above average.

 

Gunsmoke, Lassie, What's My Line, Ozzie and Harriet, The Danny Thomas Show... these aren't average shows. They, like Bonnaza and My Three Sons are abnormal shows.

[jdw]

And to be clear: I love Firefly, and wish it had a nice 4 year run on cable at 14 or so episodes a year. I would have loved to have seen it have a 5 year run of 77 episodes like Leverage, or 5/60 like The Wire, or 8/125 like Monk... anything. But it didn't: it failed. :/

 

John

[cabinboy454]

TZ was "nearly cancelled", and then went on to have 3 full seasons, one year as a mid-season replacement, and then a 5th season as a fulltime show.

 

Firefly got cancelled during the production of it first season, before that full season of episodes were produced, and Fox chose not to air 3 episodes it had in the can... for years.

 

Are you seriously trying to tell me they're the same thing?

No, because they are not alike at all. Firefly is more like Freaks & Geeks than TZ, a beloved show that had one season.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Took me awhile but I finally remembered the point I originally was trying to make. I was trying to argue that it isn't fair to say Firefly failed. Looking back my choice of TZ as an example was a poor choice. Freaks and Geeks, Arrested Development, and Star Trek would all have been much better. I get your point that Firefly lasted one season and therefore was a failure, but I'm do not think it is fair to judge art on commerce. Firefly by all accounts was an artistic success and doing a quality show was the creator's job. It is the job of the network marketing staff to get people to watch, those people failed as no one watched the show when it originally aired.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

Regardless - and it's obvious why he wouldn't qualify - but I think Chris Benoit was more athletic than Lesnar.

I will be polite and simply ask why you believe that to be true?

 

Benoit seemed a lot more coordinated. Granted, wrestling is worked, but there was something fluid about his motions that it would have required an impressive degree of coordination to pull off his style. He moves just as well as Angle, who is an Olympic gold medalist.

 

That's honestly flabbergasting to me. Benoit never seemed to have an athletic bone in his body. Owen Hart was fluid. Benoit was borderline robotic. He moved like a guy who never played sports. Like, if you asked him to run across the parking lot after a show, it would be downright comical. I'm, right now, trying to picture Chris Benoit playing pickup basketball. It's making me laugh.

 

Wow, what an interesting observation. So you think becoming a top worker in pro-wrestling doesn't require any degree of athleticism? What kind of athleticism did Benoit have that made him a top 10 guy of his era? Do you think pro-wrestlers are by and large out-classed by all other sports? Who in the wrestling business do you see historically as the most athletic?

[Slasher]

I don't know about running around in parking but Benoit definitely had athleticism, but no, not as much as Owen or Brock.