Dave Meltzer stuff

[Dylan Waco]

I like Dave, but once he has a narrative in his head that is what he is going to stick with facts be damned.

[BillThompson]

Yeah, I was amused by his claim that the audience hated it too. I guess that's why they were trashing the ring with their money. Are there any diehard lucha fans at all who take his lucha opinions seriously?

 

I don't listen to anything Dave has to say about Lucha. He loves to toss out incorrect assumptions, and in general seems to have little idea of Lucha history or how things in Lucha actually get over.

[funkdoc]

feels like the only time dave was genuinely passionate about lucha was mid-90s AAA, which made more of an effort to appeal to american audiences

[pantherwagner]

Also that style of lucha was the fast moving workrate style that Dave likes. He also enjoyed the Mistico run for similar reasons.

[Hector]

Well Lucha Underground exists and he seems pretty dismissive of that from what I understand. I don't know if I'm being fair there because I'm just going on second hand comments.

[Steenalized]

He gave **** to the King Puma/Johnny Mundo match from like the first week, didn't he? Maybe he's come down on his enjoyment since.

[Hector]

He might have, I don't know. All I'm saying is that it's surprising to hear that he's not over the moon about a show where a bunch of AAA midcarders are getting over with American audiences. You know he would if we were talking about Japanese midcarders. He would spend all day retweeting gifs and Alan4L comments.

[BillThompson]

He gave **** to the King Puma/Johnny Mundo match from like the first week, didn't he? Maybe he's come down on his enjoyment since.

 

Right now Dave has a major hard on for New Japan. Similar to Dylan's earlier comment, Dave has decided NJPW is the best in the world at everything and he will hear nothing else. As a result he's been oddly negative towards other wrestling that isn't NJPW. I'd like to think Dave doesn't take the "This thing I like is great, how dare you suggest something else is just as great" approach. However, when he goes on Twitter and blasts things from standpoints that only exist in his head, such as the crowd being dead for V4/BP, it's hard to think he isn't using said approach.

 

In the specific case of Lucha Underground there's no issue with Dave being down on the future of the company, their viewership, or their general viability. There isn't even an issue of him not liking the in-ring product, he's certainly entitled to like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes. But, when Dave talks in circles and steps over his own words in the process of trying to knock LU down a few pegs I do take issue. And honestly, Dave has been increasingly like that when it comes to anything that isn't that thing which he loves at the moment. Right now that's New Japan, maybe two years from now it will be something else, who knows.

[Dylan Waco]

Meltzer has been down on the intergender aspects of LU and to some degree the business model itself (though there I think he's more realistic than negative). He also is oddly critical of the "all big moves!" style their at times which doesn't really bother me except for the fact that he seems far less critical of it in places like Dragon Gate. That said he has been very high on many of the matches and shows produced by the promotion. As a whole I would say he is more positive on LU than negative.

[stomperspc]

 

Yeah, I was amused by his claim that the audience hated it too. I guess that's why they were trashing the ring with their money. Are there any diehard lucha fans at all who take his lucha opinions seriously?

 

I don't listen to anything Dave has to say about Lucha. He loves to toss out incorrect assumptions, and in general seems to have little idea of Lucha history or how things in Lucha actually get over.

 

 

I think Dave has a solid sense of lucha history, it just has never really been his thing and he's only gotten into it heavily a few times. His Lucha Libre for Beginners article from the 1990 Observer year book provides solid insight to his views on lucha and his knowledge of Mexican wrestling history. It's an interesting read in that more or less on his own, he pieces together how matches in Mexico are structured, how feuds are structured, ect. He also does it in a way that would be easy for lucha novices to understand. At the same time, you can see his biases come through on the stylistic elements. He refers to the brawling as "weak" relative US and Japan. He also wrote that that the wrestlers aren't as complete as wrestlers in top promotions in the US & Japan and compares the talent level to the US indies which obviously seems unfair. If anything, 1990 Dave seemed to be harsher against the luchadores he viewed as being mainly fliers (Atlantis, Super Astro) while praising guys he felt were more well-rounded like Casas, Pirata Morgan, Jerry Estrada, Dandy, ect. I think over the years, Dave has shifted more and more heavily towards athleticism at the expense of most everything else which has impacted his views on lucha and everything else.

 

Agreed that his match opinions on lucha should be taken with a grain of salt these days, but the same could be said for his match opinions on any promotion/style that he only occasionally watches. He's not alone in that of course. A lot of people watch a match or two from a certain promotion or style and form an opinion on it without the proper context. It's just that Dave's opinions are far more visible than most other's.

[pantherwagner]

Meltzer has been down on the intergender aspects of LU and to some degree the business model itself (though there I think he's more realistic than negative). He also is oddly critical of the "all big moves!" style their at times which doesn't really bother me except for the fact that he seems far less critical of it in places like Dragon Gate. That said he has been very high on many of the matches and shows produced by the promotion. As a whole I would say he is more positive on LU than negative.

 

Here's my disclaimer: Mistico/post-Mistico CMLL is not really my cup of tea and I haven't watched more than 10 hours of current non-NJPW Japanese wrestling in the last 7 or 8 years, so I am not trying to disguise my opinion as somebody else's.

 

That being said, I know that there are several lucha fans that are really pissed off at Meltzer for giving so much shit to guys like Volador or La Sombra for doing way too many dangerous spots and rendering them meaningless, but then he seems to give a free pass to Japanese wrestlers doing the same thing.

[Hector]

Not pissed but more like snarky derision. Watching Meltzer cover lucha these days is probably a lot like watching ESPN talking heads try to cover soccer. If not for Dr. Lucha, I don't know what you would get.

[alexoblivion]

Just find it somewhat narrow minded of Dave to think that because the match didn't meet whatever his standards are, that no one besides the most hardcore of fans could possibly think it was a great match. To say that the match was not even over with its audience is ludicrous.

[cm funk]

Meltzer has been down on the intergender aspects of LU and to some degree the business model itself (though there I think he's more realistic than negative). He also is oddly critical of the "all big moves!" style their at times which doesn't really bother me except for the fact that he seems far less critical of it in places like Dragon Gate. That said he has been very high on many of the matches and shows produced by the promotion. As a whole I would say he is more positive on LU than negative.

 

He's been down on the intergender stuff and Matt Striker really bugs him, but other than that he seems to like LU. He's rated a lot of matches highly, praised a lot of the wrestlers, praised their backstage stuff and vignettes as the best going anywhere right now, and generally seems to enjoy the product

[goc]

Well it'd be pretty hard to go over board in ragging on Matt Striker. Even Taz & Todd Grisham were making jokes about having to work with Striker on Taz's podcast.

[Steenalized]

Never forget, Stryker was once best announcer in the Observer awards. Was Dave high on him then?

[hammerva]

I wish the Miz would never do another movie or TV show. Not just because he sucks doing it but because of Meltzer obsession of trying to convince people how much he sucks and questioning his manhood.

[sek69]

To be fair, Miz is pretty badly miscast as an action hero. Some guys can pull off "tough guy" and some can't. Miz seems to be the kind of guy who can't.

[Matt D]

Never forget, Stryker was once best announcer in the Observer awards. Was Dave high on him then?

 

Presuming that was during the 09 ECW run, I think it was just a case that people weren't used to him then. He was the smarkiest announcer WWE ever had bringing up all sorts of crazy references and getting away with it since it was the C show. The product was very good that year and in some ways he did add to it. He was more tolerable in a two man booth than a three man one where he was desperately trying to get all of his stuff in and he was generally less confident. Right now it's obvious he has a thousand lines prepared and feels the need to get them all in. Back then, he was sort of a breath of fresh air for a few months and kind of made you feel like you were part of something in listening to him, like he was "one of us."

 

It definitely didn't last for long.

[jdw]

 

Right now Dave has a major hard on for New Japan. Similar to Dylan's earlier comment, Dave has decided NJPW is the best in the world at everything and he will hear nothing else. As a result he's been oddly negative towards other wrestling that isn't NJPW.

 

 

This might be a bit extreme. I don't read him regularly at all, but going back a few pages there was the discussion of him losing his shit over Mania... more than a number of people here.

 

When I was going to shows with Dave from 1993-98, he liked all sorts of stuff. People who loved ECW thought he loved AAA too much. People who loved the WWF thought he loved WCW too much. People who loved WCW thought he loved the WWF too much. Everyone who didn't follow puroresu thought he loved NJPW/AJPW/AJW too much. Wrestling Fans thought he loved MMA too much.

 

His capacity to like a variety of stuff has always been pretty broad.

 

I know we like to pigeon hole everyone, but it might not be a great idea. Less in the sense of Dave, but more in the sense of Us.

 

I think all of us who have been around online for a long time, and watched the evolution of hardcore fandom, has seen We be on the other side of that stuff.

 

Those of us who liked puroresu and watched/talked/wrote a great deal of/about it were Puroresu Snobs. We "believed there was only one Right way to work." I don't know how many times I saw that stuff tossed at us, and I got around the web far less than someone like Dylan.

 

The reality is that most of us watched and liked a lot of different stuff. I got slapped as only liking AJPW, which was kind of funny given I spent money to go see NJPW, AJW, AAA, CMLL, the WWF, WCW, etc. A shitload of money in the era. You'd have other guys be labeled as Memphis marks, when in reality they were watching all sorts of shit, and digging a ton of it. There was the folks slapped as obsessed about the indy guys popping up in the era, which ignored that they every bit as much enjoyed watching Fit Finlay smack around someone.

 

Do we have biases and things we like? Sure. Do they change over time? Sure.

 

But we all have the capacity to like a lot of different shit.

 

Dave really isn't any different. Is he having lots of fun with New Japan? Cool. Did he lose his shit for Mania and overrated it? Cool. That he still gives about pro wrestling after 50 years as a fan, 32 years of writing about it, seeing the ugly underside of it far more than almost any of us, and watching someone like Perro die... well, that's more than a bit amazing.

[KrisZ]

I'd much rather him gush over NJPW than UFC

[Steenalized]

 

Never forget, Stryker was once best announcer in the Observer awards. Was Dave high on him then?

 

Presuming that was during the 09 ECW run, I think it was just a case that people weren't used to him then. He was the smarkiest announcer WWE ever had bringing up all sorts of crazy references and getting away with it since it was the C show. The product was very good that year and in some ways he did add to it. He was more tolerable in a two man booth than a three man one where he was desperately trying to get all of his stuff in and he was generally less confident. Right now it's obvious he has a thousand lines prepared and feels the need to get them all in. Back then, he was sort of a breath of fresh air for a few months and kind of made you feel like you were part of something in listening to him, like he was "one of us."

 

It definitely didn't last for long.

 

It was for 2008, but I figure it was because his act hadn't worn thin/he was something new.

 

I'd much rather him gush over NJPW than UFC

Hear hear.

[cm funk]

I liked Striker his first 6-9 months or so on ECW because he was totally different and not another WWE produced talking head. He was getting away with all sorts of stuff and it was clear Vince/Steph/whoever wasn't paying any attention to ECW at the time. He was calling moves by their actual names and giving backstory/credit to the history of the move. I still remember a random match where he loaded his colour with as many Smiths and Morrisey references as possible and it was so ridiculous and 'inside baseball' and I was just cracking up at how absurd and random it was. I don't remember who the PBP guy was, Todd Grisham I think, and he was trying to call it straight and finally broke and made one of his own and started laughing

 

But then somebody wizened up to his schtick and he turned into the "smarky WWE cliche, catchphrase spitting robot" he became and he's generally been terrible ever since. I remember a note in the Observer back then that was basically (paraphrased) "Vince finally heard Striker's commentary and blew a gasket". There is a clear delineation between early ECW Striker and heavily produced beat down to conform Striker.

 

Also, when he won, it was slim pickings commentary wise. He was the best of a bad bunch. I remember Dave liking him back then too. But between WWE beating his originality out of him and the act wearing thin......it is crazy to think he was actually good for a stretch compared to the years of him being intolerable since

 

tbf....I don't hate him on Lucha Underground.....but he says some cringe worthy bad stuff. He wasn't bad with JR on the Tokyo Dome show either......but he needs to drop the "I'M MARKING OUT" uber smark schtick

[clintthecrippler]

Yeah, I think with Striker it was very much a combination of both his insider/smart fan persona wearing thin and him just having no chemistry with Cole and Lawler at all. Him making references to past wrestlers, and other backgrounds that wrestlers had felt fine, but when he cranked it up too much, going too insider and started shouting things like "I'm marking out!" it was cringeworthy.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, my favorite commentary moment this year is during the NJPW PPV. Striker starts giving backstory on Kenny Omega and eventually talks about how Omega "SWERVED the fans and the entire locker room of New Japan Pro Wrestling."

 

JR's response to that: "He LIED to them! I don't know what 'swerved' means. No one's ever 'swerved' me. Kenny Omega LIED!"

 

Second favorite moment: Striker trying to get JR to shout "LARIATOOO!" and JR completely no-selling it like he was Art Donovan at King of the Ring 94.

[goc]

The problem with Striker is that Todd Grisham was seemingly the only person that could reign him in. I miss Todd, he was super underrated.