Dave Meltzer stuff

[Johnny Sorrow]

"Roman's awesome !" clap clap ! clapclapclap !

 

"This is wrestling !" clap clap ! clapclapclap !

 

"No more workrate !" clap clap ! clapclapclap !

 

"This is five stars !" clap clap ! clapclapclap !

 

*yawn*

 

Maybe the fact Roman Reigns is kind of a crappy Cena 2.0 character with lame-ass promos and taglines also doesn't help him get over with the current WWE crowd. I mean, Bryan is far away now, let's not pretend it's just because of him to this day that people don't buy Roman. Let's fucking turn heel already. He would be better anyway.

Yuck.

[El-P]

Considering this board tries to go away from "Great Match Theory"

 

Really ? The whole, and only, argument for Roman Reigns is "he has all the best matches in the company". So yeah, really, the only thing is that people don't agree about the greatness of matches, but this is pretty much the only argument. The fact that Reigns is not a good promo, that his character has been pushed as Cena N°2 etc doesn't seem do be taken in account in why he's being rejected. The whole argument is "Stupid indy-loving WWE crowd, Roman is da great wrestler". Ok. So, it's only a matter of chosing your own "greatest wrestler who has all the greatest matches". They just disagree on the matches. In essence, this is good old smart fan, snowflake loving argument. That's why it's kinda funny to me.

 

(about Roman Reigns being a great worker or not, I don't really care, or even really don't, but I was more interested in him vs Rusev than any other match at SS. Well, because of Rusev, but still, I was curious to see the match, as opposed to the other main events)

[Matt D]

I do find it interesting that there is very little discussion of the individual aspects Roman brings to these matches to help make them great, especially when it comes to looking for patterns from match to match.

[WashingtonFB]

 

Considering this board tries to go away from "Great Match Theory"

 

Really ? The whole, and only, argument for Roman Reigns is "he has all the best matches in the company". So yeah, really, the only thing is that people don't agree about the greatness of matches, but this is pretty much the only argument. The fact that Reigns is not a good promo, that his character has been pushed as Cena N°2 etc doesn't seem do be taken in account in why he's being rejected. The whole argument is "Stupid indy-loving WWE crowd, Roman is da great wrestler". Ok. So, it's only a matter of chosing your own "greatest wrestler who has all the greatest matches". They just disagree on the matches. In essence, this is good old smart fan, snowflake loving argument. That's why it's kinda funny to me.

 

(about Roman Reigns being a great worker or not, I don't really care, or even really don't, but I was more interested in him vs Rusev than any other match at SS. Well, because of Rusev, but still, I was curious to see the match, as opposed to the other main events)

 

Where are the great characters in this company?

[El-P]

Rusev & Lana are pretty damn excellent.

 

Jericho is all sweaty and sleazy now.

 

Sasha and Bailey.

 

Eva Marie ? in a perverted way...

 

KEVIN OWENS !!! FIGHT !! FIGHT FOREVER !!!!

 

Well yeah, there are not many.

[Fando]

Even Sasha's character at this point is just a theme song and sunglasses.

[El-P]

Well. You're right about that honestly.

[anarchistxx]

Reigns simply has it. He has a presence and aura that pretty much nobody else on the roster can match, with the exception of Brock Lesnar and John Cena. Even the woeful booking he has been subjected to hasn't taken it away - he is still someone you pay attention to on screen, and he is able to create the #BigMatchFeel in a company where matches mean fuck all anymore since everyone has wrestled each other a million times on Raw.

 

Things involving Reigns feel like a big deal, in the way that something involving Sheamus or Kevin Owens or Dean Ambrose never does. In a weird way it helps him that the crowd is so vocal and tumultuous, as it adds an extra intrigue to his matches. If they let him acknowledge it, he plays off it really well. He begins to suck when they have him ignore it and still pretend to be the smiling face regurgitating awful scripted lines. He should talk as little as possible, and mostly in action movie type soundbites.

 

Not sure he is a superworker in the classic sense, but he has had some very good matches and is a very capable, athletic performer in ring. He is definitely one of the best people of his height and build the company has had, in terms of his capabilities. In terms of the overall package I'd put him top three in the company, definitely.

 

His moveset could use some adjustment - that awful 'Superman Punch' is way overused, and cheaply thrown in as a nearfall to protect the spear, which doesn't often look that good anyway. Feel like he needs a powerful bomb type finisher. He also busts out his dives and spectacular stuff too often - that should be saved for when he is desperate in a huge match a needs to turn it around. I would also like to see him bully people more and have shorter, brutal matches.

[Coffey]

So, Roman or Rusev? Considering this board tries to go away from "Great Match Theory" - which is really refreshing - I think it's an interesting discussion. I think I like Rusev more but not by much.

 

This would be a good topic of discussion on its own instead of being lost in a megathread.

[Jimmy James]

I like Roman because I have a long-standing bias toward wrestlers who mainly throw punches and bombs. More seriously, I think his facials (when not doing one of his well-deservedly mocked Rock-Lite promos) and expressions in-ring are top-notch without pissing me off in the way that, say, Edge or Dolph Ziggler's expressions did. It's a big part of why I like his selling so much.

 

I think his current "silent guy who beats the shit out of people" gimmick would have worked to get him over had they never bothered with those god-awful promos in the winter of 2014. Even despite his awful reactions when he comes down the ramp, he tends to get much better reactions when they just let him loose and beat the shit out of someone.

 

As far as Rusev goes, I love that guy because I firmly believe he's one of those guys who could get over in any era, anywhere in the world. I'd love to see him have a long run as like, the Arn Anderson of the company (or, I guess, the new Big Boss Man)- someone who can work as either an upper-card face or a heel and give you quality work no matter where you put him on the card.

[anarchistxx]

Rusev doesn't do it for me at all. Think the regressive gimmick put me off from the start, so limited and archaic. In ring I don't particularly find his stuff enthralling either.

[InYourCase]

Reigns simply has it. He has a presence and aura that pretty much nobody else on the roster can match, with the exception of Brock Lesnar and John Cena. Even the woeful booking he has been subjected to hasn't taken it away - he is still someone you pay attention to on screen, and he is able to create the #BigMatchFeel in a company where matches mean fuck all anymore since everyone has wrestled each other a million times on Raw.

I completely disagree with this. Not once have I ever thought that he had "it". He's replaceable. There have been people like him (Orton, mainly) and there will be people just like him for years to come. For now, he fits his role, and he's good in that position, more often than not.

[sek69]

He definitely has "it", but not the "it" Vince wants him to have if that makes any sense. He has such a bad ass aura about him that making him the Cena-esque superhero seems like forcing a square peg in a round hole.

[anarchistxx]

 

Reigns simply has it. He has a presence and aura that pretty much nobody else on the roster can match, with the exception of Brock Lesnar and John Cena. Even the woeful booking he has been subjected to hasn't taken it away - he is still someone you pay attention to on screen, and he is able to create the #BigMatchFeel in a company where matches mean fuck all anymore since everyone has wrestled each other a million times on Raw.

I completely disagree with this. Not once have I ever thought that he had "it". He's replaceable. There have been people like him (Orton, mainly) and there will be people just like him for years to come. For now, he fits his role, and he's good in that position, more often than not.

 

 

Think you picked a bad example there - Randy Orton is not replaceable in the least. In fact, since Orton, Cena & Batista became stars in 2004/2005 they have thrown everything at the wall to create other people on their level and haven't been able to do it. They have tried Sheamus, Alberto Del Rio, Dolph Ziggler and many, many others, and they have all ended up stale midcard acts or jobbing out every couple of weeks.

 

The inability to replace the old timers has been a major problem for over a decade. They haven't created a real superstar, main event act for a long time, an act that will remain continually the centerpiece of the show. That is due to a mixture of poor booking that:

 

a. Doesn't allow anyone to be elevated to that level due to short termism and having potential stars job out every week

b. Fetishizes nostalgia to the point where old stars are perceived as infinitely more important than new talent

 

The Shield was the first time when it felt they might finally build some superstars to carry the company forward in the future, and Roman Reigns was the clear headline act of that group.

 

If Randy Orton was as dispensable as you say, they would have fired him years ago with his constant disciplinary problems and wellness violations. As it is, they always go back to him because he gets a huge reaction in arenas and is someone with credibility among the casuals. He has it, that aura of being a big deal, despite the fact he is fucking boring 99% of the time.

 

Roman Reigns is not replaceable in the least. He is one of the only names on the roster who gets a guaranteed reaction every week, who instigates crowds to be loud and tumultuous and pay attention. You can't buy that.

[Loss]

If you want to talk about irreplaceable WWE guys, I think you have to talk about Rey Mysterio. Every single attempt to replace him has failed.

[anarchistxx]

He was definitely irreplaceable but for different reasons. Rey was never going to be the centerpiece of the company, his indispensability obviously stemmed from how over he was with a certain demographic.

 

As a worker Daniel Bryan could have been his heir. Someone who could work anywhere on the card with anyone and be believable and have fantastic matches. A pure babyface with good intentions who nonetheless got fantastic reactions from all sections of the crowd. Obviously DB was never going to replace him as a massive draw to the hispanic audience - not sure who can.

 

Mistico looked the obvious one to try and step up but that was an unmitigated disaster. Suppose it is similar to trying to replace Steve Austin - you can have Dean Ambrose come out with a truck and be anti-authority and sabotage the boss, you can have but you will never capture the essence of the original.

[The Chief]

I'd add Eddie Guerrero to the irreplaceable list of guys for a lot of the same reasons as Rey. Eddie drew such a big Latino demographic not just because of his ethnicity but because he was so damn good at everything he did. They've tried to fill those Eddie/Rey roles since then with guys from a Latino background and it never really clicked because there wasn't much past the surface similarities.

[WashingtonFB]

Triple H has proven to be irreplaceable simply because he won't let anyone replace him.

[El-P]

Roman Reigns has it, Randy Orton has it, Eddie had it. Well, like the immortal Faith no More used to ask : what is it ?

 

Let's be real. People who had *it* were Hogan, Austin, Dusty, Inoki, Choshu, Flair, Rock, Baba, Misawa, Takada, Onita, Cena. We're not talking about the same thing, obviously, because Orton never meant shit despite being pushed forever (yeah, he gets crowd reaction, so you'd hope after more than 10 years of being pushed on top, that's the HHH school of being a "star", but so did Sid), Batista became a legit star the day he appeared on the Galaxy movie (which was quite the good surprise too), and Reigns has been rejected by the crowds because of being shoved down their throat. Maybe he should mary Stephy.

 

(one can argue than Bryan had *it* too BTW, but the constant depush and health issues prevented him from reaching his star potential. CM Punk probably had *it* too, but then again, not the favourite son, so...)

[Cox]

I think Reigns is definitely a guy who has had great matches. He's an athletic big man who can clearly follow instructions well, and we've seen those are the top traits you need to be a great main event worker in WWE. I would hesitate to call him a great worker, if only because he has the greatest single advantage any wrestler could have in modern wrestling, and that's the WWE road agents laying out his matches. We've seen too many times that it's almost impossible to have a bad main event match in WWE, unless Brock Lesnar or HHH (or, God help us, both) are involved. That said, Reigns has certainly used this to his fullest advantage to have great matches with a wide number of wrestlers, including having what will probably be Lesnar's last great match. I like Reigns and I enjoy watching him, and he's certainly had a top 3-5 output in WWE over the past two years. But would he be as good without the WWE machine behind him? I think it's hard to say. For what it's worth, the only main eventer I feel comfortable saying is a great worker right now is Styles, and that's only because he has a 15 year global reputation of having great matches around the world. So it's not just Reigns I'm docking for this, and I'd certainly rather watch Reigns than Owens or Rollins or Balor.

[Loss]

Jericho is not irreplaceable but they haven't given anyone else a chance to take on that role where they go up and down the card, just filling whatever slot is needed, turning as needed, going from main event to opening match as needed, because they have so much trust in their abilities. HHH seemed to see Tyler Breeze that way, but Vince obviously didn't.

[El-P]

I would hesitate to call him a great worker, if only because he has the greatest single advantage any wrestler could have in modern wrestling, and that's the WWE road agents laying out his matches. We've seen too many times that it's almost impossible to have a bad main event match in WWE, unless Brock Lesnar or HHH (or, God help us, both) are involved.

 

Glad someone finally points an element that has been ridiculously overlooked when you hear that John Cena is a great worker. In today's environment, I dare say that the Warrior working modern WWE main events carefully plained out by agents would be considered a great worker too. Hell, he had one great match against Randy Savage, and we know how that one worked out. The modern WWE style is the most manufactured and self-conscious style of all time. And in essence, the "fakest" of all time, simply because it says the least about the workers involved.

[anarchistxx]

Jericho is not irreplaceable but they haven't given anyone else a chance to take on that role where they go up and down the card, just filling whatever slot is needed, turning as needed, going from main event to opening match as needed

 

That is pretty much half the people on the roster now isn't it though? I'd say at least 25% of them veer aimlessly from main event to opener to midcard. They have created a roster of Chris Jericho's, who are massively flexible but at the same time have little credibility and are not perceived to be major level stars because they bounce up and down the card and job every other week to each other.

[Loss]

The difference is that it seems like when Jericho does it, there's something purposeful about it. I don't know that they are always right but they do have a certain level of faith in him as the guy who can make anything work. What's being described in your post is a lot of aimless flailing.

[sek69]

They seem to think Ziggler is at that level on Smackdown, and while he's probably doing the best promos he's done in a while (ever?) I just don't buy him as a guy who can just be slotted in a main event/title program and have any credibility.