AirJordanFan93 Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 typo or not, six stars is probably the funniest dave moment for me Almost as funny as seeing all the people lose their shit on Twitter over Dave's opinion. I unfollowed nearly all the wrestling based accounts I had been following on Twitter just after Christmas bar Meltzer and a couple of people who are involved in the business and automatically feel better for having done so. Wrestling twitter is such a weird place and I'm so glad I don't have to read the majority of that nonsense any more. On my old Twitter in 2011 and 2012 I followed a lot of wrestling accounts and my god some of the idiocy I read back then. There were a few people who had common sense and logic but the majority were some of the dumbest people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSR Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 Didn't Meltzer give ****** to a 1989 Flair/Steamboat handheld at a random house show? He also rated Toyota/Inoue 1992 "*****+++" based off a clipped version. It's a long time since I read the issue where he was talking about it, but pretty sure it was the 3/18/89 match they had from the Capital Centre (which is out there) and talked about it 'blowing the roof' off the five star system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 Yes, that's the one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravJ1979 Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 Didn't Meltzer give ****** to a 1989 Flair/Steamboat handheld at a random house show? He also rated Toyota/Inoue 1992 "*****+++" based off a clipped version. It's a long time since I read the issue where he was talking about it, but pretty sure it was the 3/18/89 match they had from the Capital Centre (which is out there) and talked about it 'blowing the roof' off the five star system. I know the Philly match from the same day is horrid video quality, but I thought that match was amazing and better than Landover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 I know most of you guys hate Alvarez, but he just did an interview with Magnum TA which was really good. It was really refreshing to hear the guy who probably has the most legit reasons to be a bitter old timer actually give props to current stars and talk about still getting excited to watch wrestling. Also he talked about the accident and said the main reason he got hurt so bad was being a big guy in a small car. He had less than an inch of head room in the Porsche, and the force of the impact lifted him up out of his seat and his head hit the roof. He said if he would have been in a pickup truck he probably wouldn't have been hurt nearly as bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 I love Dave and have been a sub for over 20 years, but is he becoming a net negative for the industry? With this six-star rating, you can see a whole generation of young workers thinking this style is the path to success. Indies already aren't really for me anymore, I can just see a future where every wrestler thinks they need 12 finisher reversals and kickouts to do their job. I never thought I would be so fond of WWE forcing everyone to work a chinlock into their matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 I love Dave and have been a sub for over 20 years, but is he becoming a net negative for the industry? With this six-star rating, you can see a whole generation of young workers thinking this style is the path to success. Indies already aren't really for me anymore, I can just see a future where every wrestler thinks they need 12 finisher reversals and kickouts to do their job. I never thought I would be so fond of WWE forcing everyone to work a chinlock into their matches. At what point do we blame the workers rather than Dave Meltzer? If their ultimate goal is to make him happy that's great. But if they have career objectives beyond that -- whether it be building live show attendance or buys at their current company, increased bookings and paychecks from a variety of companies due to greater exposure, a full time job at a bigger company, working or headlining WWE PPV shows, or whatever the case may be for each individual, perhaps they'll consider a wider variety of influences and map out the best path to get them where they want to go. There are likely many paths towards all of these ends and it at once both giving Meltzer too much credit while simultaneously not holding wrestlers responsible for their own independent decisions. I also think its important not to inflate Meltzer's impact beyond what's realistic. How much did he drive the crowd and crowd response for Wrestle Kingdom? If NJPW wasn't satisfied with the gate and with NJW subs, shouldn't that have more of an impact on the direction of the company than anything Dave Meltzer thinks? Let's not inflate this tiny bubble to something too big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 I think it's unfortunate that there isn't a prominent critical voice operating under a different philosophy to Dave's re: what constitutes 'good wrestling', but it's not Dave's fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 Dave's influence with modern workers seems pretty big to me. Look at how he's played to at PWG shows. Like, Bayley tweeted herself watching the WK match. Does she do that without Dave's praise? I'm not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fando Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 Given she actually works with people who used to work there now and @s others on twitter, I think Dave Meltzer has little to do with what she's watching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 Dave's influence with modern workers seems pretty big to me. Look at how he's played to at PWG shows. Like, Bayley tweeted herself watching the WK match. Does she do that without Dave's praise? I'm not sure. I can't imagine Bayley watching Wrestle Kingdom has anything at all to do with Dave Meltzer. His name is Meltzer, not McMahon or Levesque. Let's not confuse the influence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 Given she actually works with people who used to work there now and @s others on twitter, I think Dave Meltzer has little to do with what she's watching. But this WK main event has become this internet community sensation. Not sure that happens without Dave. Bayley wasn't tweeting about NJPW's big September main event or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 Given she actually works with people who used to work there now and @s others on twitter, I think Dave Meltzer has little to do with what she's watching. But this WK main event has become this internet community sensation. Not sure that happens without Dave. Bayley wasn't tweeting about NJPW's big September main event or whatever. 1) WK is their Wrestlemania. Its reasonable to expect more discussion & noise about this than September's Destruction show, just as there will be more chatter about Wrestlemania than for Battleground or Night of Champions. 2) A sensation on this or similar internet communities is a sensation on this and similar internet sensations. Not among the mass casual audience that companies like WWE or NJPW should be promoting towards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 All right let's forget Bayley. Is Dave encouraging a generation of young workers to eschew character work and psychology in favor of matches like Okada-Omega? Does he have that influence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fando Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 What, you think the people popping in the dome are all WON subscribers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 All right let's forget Bayley. Is Dave encouraging a generation of young workers to eschew character work and psychology in favor of matches like Okada-Omega? Does he have that influence? I don't know. My point is simply that if they are regularly adjusting their game to him, I hold them responsible rather than him. That's shortsighted and silly, and coming from someone who's read the Observer for over 20 years now (Jesus Christ) and credit him with exposing me to more new & different wrestling any other source. But I'm a fan on my couch, not doing this for a living. Hopefully wrestlers have more and broader influences & perspectives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 Yes. In fact, I would argue Dave's influence is the reason that style became popular in the first place. He's always had a pretty strong mind for the wrestling business, and as people inside wrestling started to listen to him more on matters of booking and hiring and promotional direction, they started listening to him more about the working style too. No one in WCW had a good enough clue about the Japanese or Mexican scene to recommend good hires when they decided to launch a cruiserweight division with global influence. Bischoff consulted with Dave on that stuff. There's a reason the WWF cared more about match quality in the 90s than in the 80s, and more in the 2000s than in the 90s, and more in the 10s than the 00s, for example. The WON is why people even cared to seek out Japanese wrestling, and most people thought it was great initially because he taught them that it was. That doesn't mean that people are incapable of independent thought or that most fans blindly repeat his opinions, but just that he has shaped the way almost all of us watch wrestling, self included. He's even shaped it for people who have no idea who he is (although I suspect his name said over the loud speaker at an NXT show or even at Cowboys Stadium for WM32 would have gotten a big pop). The general morality of what is good and what is bad wrestling I think stems from Dave's personal tastes. If not his, then whose? (My favorite PWO question ...) A lot of current wrestlers read the WON as teenagers and it's been around their entire lives. That doesn't even get into the fact that most indy fans either read the WON or read sites that parrot their news and views on wrestling from the general WON mentality, so this becomes the accepted standard of "good" and the message is a candle burning at both ends. People inside wrestling hear it. Fans hear it. It becomes religion. All of that said, I've said this before and will repeat it. Dave does like action, but I've seen him pan stuff with plenty of action. He used to hate on Sabu and RVD all the time, for example. It's not just about that. He cares about what's hot and what's in style. He cares about what's cool. He cares about things that seem daring. He cares about guys who aren't just technically good, but who come across as major stars. He cares about what's over. If you look back at the last 35 years of the WON, "Dave likes everything with huge heat unless it involves Hulk Hogan" is more accurate than "Dave likes everything with crazy highspots". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fando Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 Younger workers are not going to be looking at Dave's rating as a marker for success, they are probably going to watch the match and think it was a great match because plenty of people who couldn't care less about Meltzer already do. And it's looking like they could see Kenny Omega get signed by WWE after having it. And like Loss wrote: Plenty of things Dave often criticizes have not gone away despite what influence he has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 I feel like people are understating Dave's influence. Remember Mick Foley in his book talking about how important it was to him to get praised by Dave so he could get more bookings and advance his career. Certainly his influence has increased since 1988. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fando Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 There is also a huge difference between Dave passing along someone's name and then that guy actually getting over. Same with Jericho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stro Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 This is the first generation of wrestlers that grew up smarks reading the WO and wrestling like what Dave raved/raves about. He's been THE tastemaker for a lot if not most of the top stars from North America right now. It's probably going to be like that for at least a few more years, so expect the trend of guys thinking spots = stars = great = money to continue for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 This is hardly the first generation of wrestlers that grew up reading the Observer. It is the first to grow up in an era of social media to be able to tell everyone about it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 There's far higher percentage of major-league wrestlers who were wrestling nerds growing up in this generation compared to previous, I'd say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 I'm sure there are still people involved who didn't grow up as fans, but saw an opportunity to make money, a la Sting, Luger, Warrior, Goldberg or Brock, but I would imagine there are fewer of those types than ever in wrestling now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 For a good number of years in the 00s, a good number of athletes who weren't fans that might have gone into wrestling previously went into MMA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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