Dave Meltzer stuff

[FLIK]

behind Benoit, Eddy, Rey and Angle as a worker

Yes but it's not like he was being carried and didn't do his part.

 

in a legendary but short series of matches

He was having good stuff that whole year. It was mostly with those same guys but still, not a short run.

[Ricky Jackson]

Be prepared for the marking out by Meltz & Chico over Chael Sonnen's post match promo tonight.

Meltzer: "He turned himself face with one sentence as the place went wild." "That was the best money promo in a long time"

 

And they've booked a loser leaves UFC match.

 

MMA = Pro Wrestling.

[Dylan Waco]

His best singles match in the SD Six era was...a Cage Match with Angle

[kjh]

behind Benoit, Eddy, Rey and Angle as a worker

Yes but it's not like he was being carried and didn't do his part.

I could say the same for Akira Taue and Jun Akiyama, for a higher calibre and longer series of matches, neither of whom are on the ballot.

 

He was having good stuff that whole year. It was mostly with those same guys but still, not a short run.

I think once you add in all the time he was on the shelf due to injuries, I don't think his run where he's pointed to as a top worker is particularly long.

[Dylan Waco]

Also as an aside to something Flik said earlier, "Edge Sux" may be a minority but I"m not so sure. Edge is one of the few big name guys of the last few years my child and her neighborhood friends don't give a shit about. My brothers actually hated him for a lot longer than I have. The sports bar crowd around here seems to have been mostly indifferent to him since Lita left.

 

No doubt he's a big star and he's been over with the live crowds to one degree or another for the majority of his run. But I don't know that "Edge Sux" is equivalent of voices in the wilderness.

[kjh]

And they've booked a loser leaves UFC match.

 

MMA = Pro Wrestling.

And just like pro wrestling Anderson/Chael will renege on their stipulations.

[rzombie1988]

The thing with the Smackdown 6 is as a worker, I think most people would agree he was behind Benoit, Eddy, Rey and Angle as a worker, but above Chavo. Fifth best worker out of six, in a legendary but short series of matches, isn't overly impressive.

My Smackdown 6 is different than yours. I always considered Brock a part of it and left out Chavo. If I had to rank them with Brock instead of Chavo, Edge would be last. With Chavo, Edge is fifth, big deal.

 

Edge is not a hall of famer to me. He was involved in many good matches, but if you take out any matches that were not multiple person tags or Ladder/TLC matches then there's very few memorable matches of his. He's just a WWE main-eventer that happened to be there for a long time when the company had few other options. I wouldn't rank him too much above Kane except for having better matches and less stupid storylines.

[Loss]

Is Edge really a better worker than Chavo? Chavo was always one of the most underrated wrestlers around, I thought.

[Mad Dog]

I would say in 2002, Chavo was a better worker.

 

Was Edge ever the best worker in one of his big matches or in the top half of workers in a match? Look at some of his biggest matches. He was either 5 or 6 out of the Smackdown Six and let's be really honest, Edge was just along for the ride for that series. He got to be that role player in the NBA that gets to come in and score 6 pts. and leave the heavy lifting to the stars. In the big Hardys/Dudleys/E&C stuff, he was maybe better than D-Von in those matches. In E&C, Christian carried that team during promos, in the ring and in just about every way. I'd even argue that during the Brood days that he was worse than Gangrel was in the ring. During his big main event run, he was maybe better than Taker and Batista.

 

I would argue he isn't even Lex Luger level. He hasn't had any year that comes close to 1989 and 1997 for Luger. People like to forget that Luger was the hottest babyface in the United States in 1997 and him beating Hogan on Nitro was a big deal. A bigger deal than anything Edge was involved with. And Edge didn't have a year of consistently good matches like Luger did in 1989.

 

Sting is the same way. Edge doesn't have anything that touches the Vader feud as far as quality of matches. And Edge doesn't have any matches that were as big a deal as the Sting/Hogan matches in 1997 were.

 

In general, I don't see how Edge has really any justification to be a HoF wrestler. He's just not good enough or important enough to be in a HoF. He was never put in a position to draw, he was never the number 1 face or heel on the roster and he was never even a top 5 worker on the roster. There's literally a list of dozens of guys that aren't in Meltzer's stupid little HoF that have credentials that shame Edge that aren't being considered. That's just pathetic.

[Ricky Jackson]

I agree Edge is not a Hall of Fame guy, at least when judging him against the bar that was set by the original inductees. I think most on this board are in agreement that Meltzer's hall has been bastardized a bit in the last few years. For me, the most glaring inductions over this time are Angle (waaaay too soon) and Jericho (ditto). And contrary to Meltzer's recent comment on Sting, Big Daddy, etc., I think it's safe to say that HHH is in because of his lengthy push more than anything else (I just don't see his work, promo's, and charisma being hall of fame calibre. Yes, he was/is a draw. But so were Ivan Koloff, Schmidt, Monsoon to a degree, etc. I know, "different era's" and all that.) I think it is also safe to say Angle and Jericho are in largely because, at the time of the vote, both were either being pushed hard or had been recently pushed hard, and had recently been involved in highly regarded programs and matches. I think this is the main flaw of the current voting process: voters being swayed by a current performers ongoing (or very recent) work instead of evaluating a wrestler's body of work from the distance of time, which would remove a lot of the emotional connection that may prevent objective assesssment (as much as is ever possible, anyway). Of course there are wrestler's who have such impressive resumes that "waiting for the sake of waiting" is unnecessary, like Hogan, Flair, Austin, etc. I would argue that Cena falls into this category. Angle and Jericho, I believe, do not.

 

Besides arguments regarding his overall worth as a performer, Edge has going for him the fact that he is modern, was pushed hard and involved in countless high profile main events, and was involved in more **** PPV matches than anyone else (Meltzer's argument, but one that will likely sway many voters). Perhaps most importantly, he will get many "sympathy votes" because of his career recently coming to an abrupt end. Personally I would rate Jericho as a better candidate than Edge. Angle as well, but it's close.

 

The fact is, due to the nature of the voting process, modern guys with borderline credentials will likely always get the benefit of the doubt and have a greater chance of getting in than a 50s-70s star with borderline (but more impressive) credentials.

[Dylan Waco]

I've threatened it, but if Edge goes in this year I will drop a "100 candidates better for the HoF" than Edge post.

[Loss]

So Great Workers is the number one criteria now or am I reading that wrong? If I'm not I will start going to bat for a shit ton of other guys who aren't even on the ballot.

Not so much that being a great worker is the number one criteria. The way he phrased it is more that having the respect of your peers as a good worker is the number one criteria, which I guess has always been there and unspoken. It's a bunch of carnies voting. I have no expectation that guys who could hold their own at the bar or scored good ring rats plays no part in voting, but it's weird to hear Dave basically come out and admit it in a roundabout way. Some may think I'm reading too much into that, and I might be, but he's been pulling the "respect of your peers" card pretty often on the message board, which is pretty loaded when you consider all the reasons wrestlers like/dislike other wrestlers.

[Dylan Waco]

Kane is regarded as a really good guy to work with by wrestlers. Just saying...

[FLIK]

So Great Workers is the number one criteria now or am I reading that wrong? If I'm not I will start going to bat for a shit ton of other guys who aren't even on the ballot.

Not so much that being a great worker is the number one criteria. The way he phrased it is more that having the respect of your peers as a good worker is the number one criteria

Heh, so am I the only one that read it as Dave simply saying you have to meet one of those criteria with NO emphasis on any of them being more important then the other?

 

On the same show that Edge talk happened he went on a lengthy explanation of how Stu Hart is in entirely because he falls under the "important positive historical figure" catagory for example

 

Re the "respect of your peers" part, Dave's most often brought that up using the example of Dick Murdoch getting the most support from wrestlers who worked with him as opposed to "historians" and others who don't vote him as highly and he's usally specified that that's because his peers thought he was a talented in ring worker.

 

My Smackdown 6 is different than yours. I always considered Brock a part of it

Hmmm, I think your Smackdown 6 may be diffrent then everyone's

[Sean Liska]

Dave trying to justify Ultimo and Hase getting in:

 

"When Dragon was in WCW before he injured his elbow (and he was never a great worker after that), I remember people in that company saying he was the best worker in the entire business. That was in a company with Benoit, Malenko, Rey and Guerrero. I remember a Dragon vs. Malenko program in particular when guys in WCW were saying it was the best match in the country and Dragon was better than Malenko in those matches. Again, those within the business in Japan felt he was influential there as well.

 

Hase was the co-booker during what was the most successful period arguably of any wrestling company in history up to that point in time, at least when it came to profit margin it was. New Japan drew more people and averaged bigger gates when Hase was booking than WWF did in the Hogan boom period. It was later surpassed by WWF post 1998 but it's still the best period for Japan. They did a profit sharing plan and at the end of the year, the mid-card guys were getting incredible checks for their share. He was also the guy who moved Muto to All Japan, and while some in the U.S. decry that, the fact is Motoko Baba was going to fold the company, and while All Japan is no great shakes, it has lasted nine more years. Hase was evidently a great worker given that virtually every one of his contemporaries voted him in. "

 

A few guys backstage in 1996 thought Ultimo was the best worker in the business. Not sure how much ring time those guys had with Kawada, but there you go.

[rzombie1988]

I would say in 2002, Chavo was a better worker.

I always thought Chavo underacheived and dropped the ball when he was finally given the chance. Once in a while he'd give a good performance that would give you hope, but then he'd get lazy.

[Mad Dog]

Chavo's real downfall as a worker was aping Eddie's act after his death.

[Dylan Waco]

The best thing about the Dragon defense is that it is something that could be said about a ton of different wrestlers who won't even get the whiff of a ballot.

[Mad Dog]

I think Ultimo Dragon is a combo guy. He should get in as a worker/booker/owner. He has made a huge impact on the Japanese scene this decade as he took essentially his training school and turned it into a promotion that surpassed All Japan and is going to surpass NOAH and become the second biggest Japanese promotion. He deserves Hall of Fame for that.

 

I also don't think he was that bad after his surgery. Sure, he wasn't quite the same but I've seen plenty of good matches with him in CMLL and DG over the years.

[Loss]

Terry Taylor was the co-booker during what was the most successful period arguably of any wrestling company in U.S. history up to that point in time, at least when it came to profit margin it was. WCW drew more people and averaged bigger gates when Taylor was booking than WWF did in the Hogan boom period. It was later surpassed by WWF post 1998 but it's still the best period for WCW. The mid-card guys were getting incredible checks. He was also the guy who moved Russo to TNA, and while some in the U.S. decry that, the fact is Jerry Jarrett was going to fold the company, and while TNA is no great shakes, it has lasted nine more years.

[jdw]

Poor Dave. This week on the F4W board has been hilarous with people (largely dont seem to understand the HOF) arguing to the death over Sting's candidacy with some really marky stuff.

 

THEN

 

Someone bumps an old megathread about Big Daddy and he finally snaps:

 

 

The Hall of Fame is about:

 

1) Great workers

2) Top tier drawing cards (with the numbers to prove it)

3) Figures important historically in a positive manner.

 

People get all hung up on drawing power to exclude great workers not getting the criteria.

 

IT'S NOT THE HALL OF GUYS WHO GOT BIG PUSHES

Where do the Road Warriors fit into the #1, #2 or #3?

 

I always thought the argument was that the Warriors were important historically, even if a lot of it was negative.

 

Well... at least that was the argument in 1996.

 

John

[jdw]

Dave trying to justify Ultimo and Hase getting in:

 

"Hase was the co-booker during what was the most successful period arguably of any wrestling company in history up to that point in time, at least when it came to profit margin it was. New Japan drew more people and averaged bigger gates when Hase was booking than WWF did in the Hogan boom period. It was later surpassed by WWF post 1998 but it's still the best period for Japan. They did a profit sharing plan and at the end of the year, the mid-card guys were getting incredible checks for their share. He was also the guy who moved Muto to All Japan, and while some in the U.S. decry that, the fact is Motoko Baba was going to fold the company, and while All Japan is no great shakes, it has lasted nine more years. Hase was evidently a great worker given that virtually every one of his contemporaries voted him in. "

Choshu was the booker/boss. Hase was one of several people who were involved in the booking, including people like Liger handling the junior division. Hase was done in New Japan in the booking side when he became a politician, which was in the first half of 1995. I'm scratching my head over what aspects of New Japan's strong run under Choshu that Hase was personally responsible.

 

Did Hase make the decision to push Hashimoto as the top guy out of the Three Musketeers?

 

No. That was Choshu. It was nakedly obvious back to the 1989 Dome show, that US hardcores never grasped that until some point in 1994... and frankly even then most of them didn't really get it until probably 1995 or 1996.

 

Did Hase make the decision to push the Three Musketeers?

 

Of course not. That was Choshu's decision to push the next generation rather than hog the top spots like Inoki did before him. It was Choshu who personally put all of them over to help make them stars, which is something that Inoki never did. Is anyone delusional enough to think that Hase came up with that idea rather than Choshu?

 

Did Hase make the decision to run Dome shows?

 

Don't be silly.

 

Did Hase make the decision to run the NJPW vs Tenryu/WAR feud?

 

Are you hitting the bong? Choshu had the relationship with Tenryu going back to New Japan. It was Choshu who personally put over Tenryu on New Japan's biggest show of the year rather than pin him and blow off the feud.

 

Did Hase make the decision to run the NJPW vs UWFi feud?

 

Really? The "call" didn't happen until after Hase was elected. That was Choshu's baby, as was it his not to spend a year with it, and instead cash in quick and then get back to focusing on New Japan business. One can debate whether that was the wisest decisions on leaving money on the table, but NJPW did huge business in 1996-97 even after UWFi was out the door.

 

I honestly have never seen a single huge critical thing about New Japan's business in the 90s that was credited to Hase.

 

Instead, Hase was closer to Ed Farrera to Choshu's McMahon/Russo. The big picture was Choshu's. There never was at the time any indication otherwise, and there hasn't been any indication since. Instead, we get this fuzzy "Hase was co-booker".

 

I also scratch my head at the "contemporaries" part. I didn't know that Dave handed out a lot of ballots to Mutoh, Chono, Kawada, Misawa (when he was alive), Kobashi, Taue, Jun, Hash (when he was alive), Koshinaka, etc. I have to say, it wouldn't mean shit to me if Sting voted for Hase: he wasn't really a true contemporary of Hase's, nor saw as much of his work as the rest of us.

 

That's coming from someone who always has been rather fond of Hase's work. I just think that whole section was a lot of nonsense on Dave's part.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

I think Ultimo Dragon is a combo guy. He should get in as a worker/booker/owner. He has made a huge impact on the Japanese scene this decade as he took essentially his training school and turned it into a promotion that surpassed All Japan and is going to surpass NOAH and become the second biggest Japanese promotion. He deserves Hall of Fame for that.

 

I also don't think he was that bad after his surgery. Sure, he wasn't quite the same but I've seen plenty of good matches with him in CMLL and DG over the years.

 

How involved was Ultimo in that process?

 

Hamada essentially created that style of wrestling, was a good worker for longer, and was at least as big an international star as Ultimo. Hamada isn't in. Why?

 

It's also notable that Ultimo got in before the rise of DG

[Mad Dog]

Because Meltzer's HoF sucks.

[Ditch]

I doubt there's anything Ultimo has over Fujiwara with the exception of a flashier style and US exposure. Ditto Hamada.

 

It wouldn't be so bad if Meltzer had gotten started in the late '80s/early '90s, or if he wasn't much interested in history. But since he was maybe the first guy talking about shoot-style in the US, and he was covering Hamada's UWF as it happened, I'm not sure why he's so willing to pass on those two while going out on a limb for marginal guys like Hase, Ultimo and Edge.