The Thread Killer

My main concern regarding Punk/Jericho is mostly centred around the quality of the actual match once they get it in the ring. The last Jericho match I remember thinking was really high quality was the PPV match with Eddie Kingston. I can deal with Jericho’s tired hipster act in a buildup, because if he tried to get shooty on Punk during a promo, Punk would eat his lunch. But Jericho is just too damn slow lately. I was especially disappointed with the match he had with Claudio at the ROH PPV a few months ago. that trilogy of matches with Danielson didn’t do a whole lot for me either, especially that one where he brought back his “Lionheart” character and spent most of the match trying to pull his pants up. He’s breaking down and Punk is breaking down and I honestly don’t know that they could pull off a decent match at this point.

SO MUCH THIS. Doing fake Pro Wrestling “work” angles on Twitter should be illegal. If you end up doing it and getting caught you should be sentenced to having to listen to every single podcast Vince Russo has ever recorded.

I would guess there are a few reasons Tony Khan didn’t fire Punk. Firstly, I think it’s a pretty safe bet that TK would have ended up having to eat a big chunk of Punk’s seven figure contract if he fired him, which probably wasn’t very palatable from a business standpoint. Second was the aforementioned injury. From a legal standpoint, it’s probably pretty hard to fire a guy who just tore a muscle working for you, just after he basically rushed back from a different injury. We all love to paint Vince McMahon as the ruthless businessman and Tony Khan as the friend to all Pro Wrestlers, and that’s probably true to a large degree…but I think a lot of times people forget that the Khan family are actually more successful in the business world than Vince ever was. Point being, you don’t get “Khan level” rich by signing guys to million dollar contracts and then firing them. I just have to believe that at some point, on some very basic level, Tony Khan would like a return on his investment. He sunk a ton of money, time and effort into signing Punk and that investment was really just starting to pay off when all this shit went down. Thirdly, I think maybe Khan didn’t just out-and-out fire Punk because he was afraid of the backlash both from his locker room and from the fans. I know a lot of hardcore fans and a lot of so-called “journalists” have painted it like pretty much 99% of the locker room does not want Punk back. None of us can know how true that really is. There have been a few notable names who have gone on record saying they like the guy. Of course FTR. But also Wardlow, Hobbs, Starks and even Danhausen. And trust me, speaking up in the AEW locker room, and saying that you actually like Punk is probably a good way to commit career suicide there. I bet there are more people that like him, that haven’t said anything out of self preservation. I bet Tony Khan was worried about pissing off a chunk of his talent if he just fired the guy, instead of fining or suspending him. As I mentioned earlier, there is a very loud contingent of AEW/Elite fans who appear to despise Punk and FTR, and they are VERY vocal about that. And I really don’t know what kind of response Punk would get if he came back. But I consider the fact that FTR get a shit-ton of hate online, but from where I sit they seem to be one of the most popular acts in the company. They may have cooled off a little bit now, but not that long ago they were white hot and were getting some of the most vocal reactions from the fans that I have heard in a long time. I don’t know if anybody remembers that segment a couple of months ago where The Young Bucks were cutting a promo, and the fans started chanting FTR, even though the segment and promo had nothing to do with them? I doubt Tony missed that. The final and most important point is that I think at his root Tony Khan is a wrestling fan first and foremost. I am betting he probably wanted to try and work this thing out, and not fire Punk because he thinks keeping him around could result in some excellent angles and matches, and in the end that’s probably what he wants most. But there sure do seem to be a whole hell of a lot of forces conspiring to try and stop that from happening. On all sides.

For whatever reason, there seems to be a somewhat large, very vocal group of fans (especially on Twitter) who just can’t seem to wrap their heads around the fact that there is plenty of blame to go around in this situation, and want to lay it all at Punk’s feet (with a bunch of additional blame directed at FTR, which is quite a feat considering they weren’t even in the building when the fight happened.) Let’s be real. Punk is a loudmouth, malcontent asshole for doing what he did at that press conference. If you want to make the argument that he deserved to be suspended, or maybe even fired for that, you would get no argument from me. But Kenny and The Bucks are also responsible for the fallout. Even if you want to throw out all of the “reporting” that was done about the incident afterwards as biased, consider this… Tony Khan clearly views disciplining his Locker Room the same way that Wesley Snipes views paying his taxes. But even the almighty TK thought that The Elite deserved to be suspended for three months after that fight. That should tell anybody all you need to know about there being more to this story than just Punk being an asshole. I freaking hate tribalism. I don’t understand why so called “smart fans” can’t admit when one of their favourites does something stupid. Hell, I love FTR to death, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think Dax shouldn’t cancel his podcast and shut his damn piehole.

Quite honestly…aside from the rumoured “dream” Trios match of Punk & FTR vs. The Elite…how much would The Bucks have to interact with Punk anyhow? Even if they don’t want to work with him, it honestly wouldn’t be a big loss. I know when he first came in, long before “The Incident” Punk had said he would have loved to work a Tag Match with Danielson as his partner against The Bucks, but fact is the money would be in Kenny vs. Punk. If Punk comes back and that match doesn’t happen…now that would be a shame. And I don’t even really like Kenny.

No, not Shooter. I have read that book, and I thought it was decent, but I am referring to the authorized biography on Ken Shamrock that Jonathan Snowden wrote: “Shamrock: The World’s Most Dangerous Man.” It’s a great sports biography. Snowden really did his research, the book is very in depth. It’s also surprisingly honest, and is willing to paint Shamrock in an unfavourable light at times, which is odd, considering he actually assisted with the project.

That’s right, Snowden was Evil Clown, not Killer Clown. It’s always disappointing when you see somebody online who you had previously liked or respected post something which is unnecessarily provocative or otherwise troll-like. I always liked that guy, but obviously other people had a very different experience with him. I happily concede your point, @NintendoLogic that Pancrase fights were not “worked” in the sense that those guys were not cooperating with each other, and were legitimately smacking and stretching the living hell out of each other. It’s just the outcome that was predetermined, which I imagine qualifies them as “fixed” not worked. Not unlike a couple of the early PRIDE fights, unfortunately.

Ken Shamrock finally admitted years later that at least some of the early Pancrase fights were worked. When he got asked during his RF Shoot Interview if Pancrase fights were fixed, he replied with the old “I’m not at liberty to say” which is carny for “yes.” But he finally came clean in that (outstanding) biography written by Jonathan Snowden a couple of years ago. I know that most people hate Snowden now due to his outrageous and highly combative online persona, but way back in the day at DVDVR he was actually really nice to me. (If I remember correctly his posting handle there was “Killer Clown” or something like that.) There was a thread where we were discussing early worked shoots, shoot style and MMA and he actually sent me a PM with some great match suggestions and advice regarding where to get them. Point is, like Snowden or not, his biography of Ken Shamrock is one of the most comprehensive, thoroughly researched and well written sports biographies I have ever read. And in that book, he confirms that some of the early Pancrease fights were worked. For what it’s worth, I think when they moved to having fights in the cage and using gloves and allowing strikes, they went 100% legit.

Whenever I get into a discussion with somebody about Lucha, I always end up remembering a kind of weird example from my own past as a Pro Wrestling fan. I don’t know if any of you guys have seen the early era Pancrase promotion from Japan. It was promoted as “Hybrid Wrestling” and was basically just grappling and submission holds. They didn’t even allow closed fist strikes of any kind. As soon as I saw it, I was hooked on that shit. I was a huge fan of Masakatsu Funaki, Ken (Wayne) Shamrock, Bas Fucking Rutten, and of course a very young Minoru Suzuki who was rocking a truly impressive pompadour. I could (and did) watch that shit all day. They were really going for as much realism as they could get. At the time there were even some fans who thought the matches were legit shoot fights. I distinctly remember discussing it back at DVDVR and some guy saying he thought it was boring as hell and stupid. I can actually remember the guy saying “Why would you want to watch Ken Shamrock rolling around on the ground with some Japanese guy for half an hour, grunting and sweating while he occasionally slaps the guy?” Fair point, I guess. Pancrase was kind of the polar opposite of Lucha Libre, they were trying to simulate an actual grappling match at the expense of all other possible traditional pro wrestling tropes. Some people couldn’t get into it, and even thought it was stupid, but I loved it. Conversely, Lucha Libre doesn’t really depend on any sort of reliance on a simulation of a legitimate physical fight, you just have to totally suspend disbelief and enjoy the aerobatic show. I don’t think one style is good and the other bad, and I don’t think one is right and the other wrong, I just know that I prefer my rasslin to be as realistic as possible, as absurd as that might sound when you are discussing Pro Wrestling.

To quote Conrad Thompson: “I love you for that.”

I think it pretty much boils down to how much of a fan you are of Lucha as a style, and how much you are willing to suspend disbelief when you watch Pro Wrestling. I myself am a fan of old school Pro Wrestling and/or the harder hitting striking style, or mat based grappling stuff. I have never been able to really enjoy wrestling that is blatantly cooperative, with guys doing obviously choreographed tumbling routines that involve the opponent having to manoeuvre themselves into a particular position and then just stand or lie there for an extended period of time, waiting for the guy on offense to finally execute the move. That always takes me right out of the match. I saw that Vikingo/Komander match from the last ROH PPV. I have a buddy who is big time into Lucha, and he went nuts over that match…he said it was actually his favourite match on the whole show. For me, I was never bored during that match (how could you be?) but I can’t honestly say I enjoyed it, either. It’s just not a style I can get into. I certainly respect and admire the amount of skill it takes to do that kind of stuff. I have never been much for the “I love this style, so you should too and you’re an idiot if you don’t” attitude. I get why people love Lucha, and I can get why people think guys like Komander and Vikingo are some of the best and most exciting modern examples of that style, but I can’t honestly say I enjoy Komander matches either.

PAC is an outstanding talent and he absolutely should be on that show. Not in the Main Event, but I would have no issue with him competing for one of the secondary championships. The show is in England and he’s from England, his being featured on that show is a no brainer.

Strongly agree that The Righteous are what the original Wyatt Family could and should have been. Them doing a cult vs. cult feud with The Dark Order in ROH actually does have potential…provided it’s the original Dark Order. Vincent & Dutch vs. Uno & Grayson. If Bateman returns for The Righteous then Dark Order bring in John Silver.

To me, when it comes to Tony Nese it’s not a matter of ability, it’s a matter of booking. When he was in WWE, he was essentially enhancement talent. He has not been booked as much more than that in AEW. When they first announced that he and Josh Woods were going to be a tag team, I was extremely interested in the “Varsity Athletes.” Unfortunately, they never get booked on Dynamite, and they never win any matches, so what was the point? And then on the rare occasions I do see them, they are stuck with Aria Davari, Mark Sterling and this ridiculous “Trustbusters” gimmick. They are essentially the same as The Dark Order. Guys who never ever win, but are shoved down your throat.

In other news, Dax Harwood made a cryptic tweet this evening, saying that he will be making an announcement this week regarding the future of his podcast. So either he is trolling everybody, or he himself realizes that this is a very bad idea and the plug needs to be pulled for the sake of locker room harmony.

I agree. I have been looking around the “IWC” and reading some reviews of ROH on Honor Club, and a couple of other fans and reviewers have made the same points that I made in the weekly TV thread this week. Namely, there has been a noticeable decrease in the quality of the ROH TV show since they stopped airing the episodes filmed at Universal Studios. The shows which have been taped before or after Dynamite and Rampage just haven’t been as good. They don’t feel special or unique, and the matches have not been as good. (I am also glad to see I am not the only person who is not happy about paying money for the “privilege” of seeing Tony Nese and Mark Sterling EVERY WEEK.) Tony Khan needs to make a decision if ROH really is going to be a unique brand, or if it’s just the same as Dark and Elevation. And if it’s the latter…I will not pay for it. This point is especially important since it seems pretty much official that the new 2 hour Saturday Night TV show AEW Collision is going to be debuting on July 8, which is going to stretch Tony Khan even further.

Yes, Turner’s dementia is pretty advanced at this point unfortunately. Eric Bischoff mentioned on his podcast that he had communicated with him in the last year and things are not going well.

I would certainly hope, and I have enough confidence in Tony Khan to assume, that he is going to take full advantage of the relationships he has formed with companies like NJPW and AAA to pull out all the stops. AEW loves to throw around the term “Dream Match.” If he is ever actually going to book some, that sure would be the time.

It got reported this past week that Omega’s AEW contract has basically been extended until November because of all the time he missed last year with injuries. I know a lot of people were speculating he was actually thinking about testing the waters and seeing if he could go to WWE, not that I think that was all that likely anyhow, but now that Vince is back you have to assume that’s not even on the table. I would guess that the next contract Omega signs will be probably his last contract, and I would assume it will be dividing his time between AEW with some trips to New Japan and Mexico. Not unlike the contracts FTR just signed. I just hope guys like Omega and Punk make the smart decision for themselves and their families. They probably both only have a limited number of big matches left before their bodies totally break down, so I hope they go where they are properly compensated and can do the kind of work they want to do. In Omega’s case, I think the style that he works, puts a tremendous amount of pressure on his body and he does not strike me as the kind of guy to tone his style down, just to save himself from injuries. As far as Punk, I think it’s probably just age and the accumulation of his entire career catching up with him as well.

I love FTR to bits, and I listen to Dax’s podcast on occasion, depending on the topic. (I’d probably listen to it a lot more if Matt Koon didn’t cohost it.) But I do question the wisdom of an active pro wrestler, who is working for a major organization having a weekly podcast where he basically pulls back the curtain and talks about stuff that he probably shouldn’t be talking about. I don’t know why he can’t wait until he retires to do this. Apparently the biggest no-no in the business used to be letting “outsiders” into the lockerroom. I guess they used to have a very strict rule about that in the business, not that long ago. Now you have guys openly talking about backstage stuff on a podcast. It’s a small wonder that some of Dax’s coworkers don’t like it. I find that more often than not, I actually agree with his opinions on things, but I still think it’s a dumb idea to be sharing them at this point in his career.

I used to think that about Cash too. I assumed he would get a little annoyed with how much Dax pulls back the curtain. But I saw him interviewed Wrestlemania weekend, and at one point he was saying that if it was him doing the podcast he would probably be even worse than Dax. I think in reality those guys actually are super tight and are actual best friends which if you think about it is such a rarity when it comes to a tag team.

Oh by the way…for those of you who have been wondering “What happened to Action Andretti after he beat Jericho and then was briefly kind of involved in the Jericho/Starks feud?” He kind of vanished after that. He showed up in ROH last night. The Kingdom have been working an ongoing feud with Top Flight, which I assumed was over since Dante Martin broke his foot at the PPV and is going to be out for quite a long time, I guess. It looks like Action Andretti will be teaming with Darius Martin from this point on, and the feud will continue.

So I guess one of the reasons we were robbed of the “feel good” moment at the last ROH PPV is because Eddie is injured. This is yet another reminder of why he is probably the best and “realest” promo guy in all of Pro Wrestling right now. This is from last night’s ROH TV.

I don’t know how everyone else felt, but I thought last night’s episode of Dynamite started out really strong but then kinda fell apart as the show progressed. Oh yeah…and a hearty FUCK YOU TONY KHAN for using Silas Young as a guy to be squashed in under a minute, when you have about 50 other guys who could have done that job that are nowhere near as good as Silas.

I saw an extended clip of that. What a bizarre theory from Meltzer. Punk doesn’t really want to come back because his potential return has been leaked…and if he really did want to come back it would be a surprise, therefore this is all some sort of Machiavellian plan by Punk to screw with the EVPs? I think even Meltzer’s biggest defenders would have to admit he has made some glaring and in some cases bizarre mistakes during his handling of this entire story, right from the start.