The Thread Killer

I'm in...and I would like to claim Maple Leaf Wrestling, please. I think a draft would be great. I actually remember a fair number of the names who worked the Toronto territory around that time, but if there is a list handy that would be even better. The thing about Maple Leaf Wrestling in the early 80's is that it was pretty awesome because it was after The Sheik was booking, but before Vince McMahon bought out the Tunney family, so Maple Leaf Wrestling was actually being run by Jim Crockett Promotions and had a bunch of talent from the Mid-Atlantic area...namely Ric Flair, Greg Valentine, etc.

I think that was pretty much the way he normally looks? I've only seen him a couple of times in AEW though, and to be honest I wasn't paying all that much attention. I am 99% sure that was him, though. I do indeed think that. The reason is, if you look his face was a bit puffy and rounder looking, which is usually a dead giveaway that somebody is on steroids. Not to mention, this documentary supposedly took place within the space of one year, and I think he underwent a fairly dramatic physical transformation for such a short time period. Who knows, I could totally be wrong, but the first time I saw him in that (horrifying) spray tan scene, the first thought that came to my mind was "I bet he's taking steroids." Actually, that was my second thought. My first thought was "Dear Lord, please don't let that sock fall off his dick." In fairness, I am pretty sure this documentary actually came out prior to the allegations about Joey Ryan. I did see Bully Ray in the documentary, but it was a "blink and you'd miss it" deal. During the montage of Arquette wrestling on the indies, there is a very brief clip of Bully Ray putting him through a table, and then at the end when he is getting congratulated by all the other wrestlers in the Locker Room, I am pretty sure Bully Ray is one of the guys who gives Arquette a hug. I think you misunderstood me, or more likely I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean the actual match with Nick Gage was the selling point of the documentary, I meant to say that the subsequent injury was kind of the selling point, and the whole reason for the title of the film. I don't know about you, but I didn't even know David Arquette had become a Pro Wrestler until he got his jugular vein punctured during that match...when that happened it was pretty big news. I remember seeing it a bunch of different places in the media, and not just on Pro Wrestling news sites. I remember I was sitting in the waiting room at the hospital and it came on the 24 Hour News feed on the TV there. I meant to say either the injury was a "work" intended to promote the documentary, or at the very least David Arquette and the filmmakers were able to exploit the injury to help promote the film and give it a whole lot more notoriety than it probably would have had otherwise. Fair point. Maybe I just didn't want to admit how most hardcore Pro Wrestling fans come across...because it sure wasn't pretty. I don't disagree with you all that much. It was very entertaining, and I would recommend it to others. I just thought parts of it were fishy...some parts more than others. But overall, I didn't dislike the movie. I have seen a ton of bad documentary films in my time, and this was a lot better than many of those. Like Eric Bischoff said in the interview, it was very professionally shot and edited. It looked good, and that's more than you can say for a lot of films like this.

I cancelled my WWE Network subscription quite a while ago, and I can't see myself ever signing up again, but I am curious about something. The Peacock streaming service is not available in Canada, so I assume that the WWE Network will remain "as is" for customers outside the United States? Or does it mean that once the Network moves to Peacock, WWE will pull it for everybody else and people who can't get Peacock are out of luck? Either way, it doesn't seem fair. It's not fair for American fans if all the International fans get to keep the traditional version of the Network and they don't, or if the Peacock version of the Network doesn't get to keep the same amount of content as the International version. But it's not fair for the International customers lose their version of the Network and then they can't subscribe to Peacock. I assume International customers will end up getting screwed. It took forever for Canadians to get the full version of the WWE Network after it launched in the USA. We got a severely limited version with barely any content...just the live network feed, for the longest time. I think it's a safe bet once this deal goes through, the International fans will get the shaft again. Good thing I stopped paying for it and I don't care anymore.

So basically just because Good Brothers @C.S. and @MoS asked, I changed my mind and decided to give them what they asked for. Without further introduction... * * * * * Ad Free Shows Exclusive "One on One: A Conversation between Eric Bischoff and David Arquette" April 25, 2020 - Eric Bischoff welcomes us to Ad Free Shows and says we are in for a real treat. Eric introduces a man who he considers a personal friend, a man he has known for quite a while, who has been very successful in the entertainment business, who has once again decided to “dip his toes” into the world of Professional Wrestling and lived to regret it...Mr. David Arquette. - David Arquette says he is very happy to talk to Eric Bischoff. Arquette says he does not regret getting involved in Professional Wrestling, and he does not believe in regrets because you can’t change the past. - Eric says he loves that attitude and he has a similar philosophy, he has had the opportunity to experience things that other people have never had the chance to experience and he is grateful for all of it, the good, the bad and the ugly. - Eric Bischoff says that David Arquette has a new documentary coming out titled “You Can’t Kill David Arquette” and he wants to talk about that, but before they do that he would like to talk about Arquette’s family background and history in Show Business. Eric asks what it was like for David Arquette to grow up in a Show Business family? - David Arquette says it was “interesting...it made for a wild, crazy, dramatic, humorous, very larger than life upbringing.” Arquette says that people who work in Show Business tend to be very imaginative and over the top, and he is still like that himself, in the way he is raising his own kids. - Arquette says that his Great-Grandparents were Vaudevillians and worked in Show Business. - David Arquette’s Grandfather was actually “Charlie Weaver” of radio and early Television fame. Arquette says that his Grandfather had a very successful career as a star on NBC radio from the 1930’s right up until the advent of Television. Once TV made radio comedy pretty much obsolete, his Grandfather retired and opened a Civil War museum. - Arquette tells the story that one night in the late 1950’s, his Grandfather was watching The Tonight Show and the host Jack Paar did an imitation of Charlie Weaver and asked on the air “whatever happened to Charlie Weaver?” His Grandfather ended up calling The Tonight Show, and they had him on as a guest. As a result of that appearance on The Tonight Show, Arquette’s Grandfather ended up having a huge career comeback, where he became a regular guest on The Tonight Show and many of the other TV Talk Shows of the late 50’s and into the 60’s. Charlie Weaver was most famous for a comedy bit he did called “Got A Letter From Momma.” Charlie Weaver ended up becoming a permanent guest on the Game Show “Hollywood Squares.” - Eric says that he remembers seeing Charlie Weaver on TV when Eric was a kid growing up during the 1960’s. Arquette says that his Grandfather was definitely an inspiration to him, and he has a tattoo of his Grandfather. - David Arquette’s father Lewis Arquette was probably most famous for his role on the popular 70’s TV Show “The Waltons” but he worked his entire career aside from that as what Arquette describes as a “journeyman actor” doing bit parts in countless movies and TV shows. Arquette says it was a tough life sometimes growing up, if his Father was between roles there might not always be money. - Eric Bischoff talks about how he has always found it interesting that the general public assumes that if you’re famous, you must automatically be rich...but that is not the case. Just because people recognize you from a TV Show or Movie, that doesn’t mean that you’re wealthy. Eric says that he knows that many actors just like Arquette’s Father had to struggle when they were unable to find any work. - David Arquette says that his Dad would frequently have to take any job he could find, just to pay the bills. For example, he remembers his Dad doing a Safety Video for General Motors, that they would show to their employees to promote their Health and Safety program. Obviously, that is not the kind of job an actor would want to take for artistic reasons, but it was a job. - Eric says that in a way, the life of a journeyman actor is very similar to that of a journeyman Pro Wrestler or a “jobber.” - David Arquette agrees and says he has always found a lot of similarities between Actors and Pro Wrestlers. David says that the way actors have to hustle for work and travel around the country trying to get any small role just to make money to feed their family is exactly the same way many independent wrestlers work as well, and that both jobs are nowhere near as glamorous as they might appear. - Arquette tells a humorous story about when he was a kid. The Arquette family apparently had a rat in their house, and they managed to catch it alive. Arquette’s Father took the rat with him to an audition at Paramount Studios, and when he didn’t get the part he let the rat loose in the studio. - Arquette says that his Father was a Pro Wrestling fan, and introduced him to Pro Wrestling. In fact, Arquette’s father actually did the voice for the cartoon of Jimmy “Superfly” Snuka on the old “Hulk Hogan’s Rock and Wrestling” Saturday Morning Cartoon. - Eric says he couldn’t believe that when he first found out about it. - David Arquette jokes that it is “cultural appropriation” for his Dad, a middle aged white guy to have done the voice for a Fijian Pro Wrestler. - Eric says that maybe this means that Arquette is an honorary Samoan and now he can talk to The Rock about getting one of those Tribal Tattoos. - Eric asks which Pro Wrestlers or matches were the first to stick out in his mind. - David Arquette says that growing up in Southern California, they used to rerun the old black and white Pro Wrestling footage from the Los Angeles territory when they ran the Olympic Auditorium. Arquette says one of his earliest memories was seeing Gorgeous George, although it wasn’t live obviously. - Arquette says as far as the modern product when he was growing up, he has vivid memories of the WWF in the 80’s specifically the rivalry between The Macho Man and George “The Animal” Steele. Arquette says he actually went to a WWF House Show in the 80’s in LA and got to see Hulk Hogan teaming with Andre The Giant, which “blew his mind.” Arquette says being able to see Andre in person has stuck with him, forever. - Arquette says when he was growing up, his friends “grew out” of watching Pro Wrestling, but he never did. Arquette says that luckily, as he got older and kept watching he made new friends who were also interested in watching and going to shows with him. - Arquette also mentions that he was friends with Jason Hervey, which was also great because Jason was tied in with WCW and was able to get him backstage and introduce him to a lot of the wrestlers. - Arquette says after he did “Scream” his acting career really changed. Once you have done a role that successful, you no longer have to go to auditions, scripts will get sent to you and you will automatically be offered roles. Arquette says that after he did Scream, he was offered “Ready to Rumble.” - Arquette says that when he read the script for Ready to Rumble, he saw on the fourth page that The Macho Man was in the script. Arquette called Warner Brothers and said: “Is that the real Macho Man? He’s in the movie? I’ll do it!” - Arquette says that it was amazing to meet Randy Savage, and that he was a very kind man. - Arquette diverts for a minute, and says that one of the things that he always found interesting about Pro Wrestling is that you have to pay close attention, or you won’t understand what is going on...the stories are always changing. Arquette says that he would sometimes not be able to watch wrestling for a while because he’d be away on location shooting a movie, and when he tuned back in, all the storylines would have changed and different people would be working with each other. - Eric says that prior to doing Ready to Rumble, David Arquette was on a career high, due to Scream, Scream 2 and Scream 3, plus he had gotten good notices for his role in the Drew Barrymore film “Never Been Kissed.” Eric wondered if Arquette’s agents, lawyers or friends might have advised him against doing Ready to Rumble, due to Professional Wrestling not being a very respected subject matter for a film? - David Arquette says his friends and peers in the acting business advised him against doing Ready to Rumble, but he wanted to do it anyway, especially since Oliver Platt and Scott Caan had signed up. Arquette says that he and Scott Caan are friends and he wanted a chance to work with his friend. - Arquette diverts for a moment and talks about how Scott Caan is a close friend of his, but when Arquette asked him to appear in his “You Cannot Kill David Arquette” documentary, Caan declined. Scott Caan told David Arquette that it was nothing personal, but Caan just has a policy against appearing in documentaries. Arquette later appeared in a documentary about a famous Tattoo artist called “Mr. Cartoon” in Los Angeles, and discovered that Scott Caan was also in the same documentary...so apparently Scott Caan didn’t have a policy against appearing in documentaries, he just didn’t want to be in a film about Pro Wrestling again, but didn’t want to tell David Arquette that. - Eric says that he and Conrad Thompson had just done an episode of 83 Weeks during which they discussed David Arquette winning the WCW World Heavyweight Championship, because it is the 18 year anniversary of the event. - David Arquette points out that the anniversary date of his World Title win is also his wife’s birthday, so he always remembers the date. - Eric Bischoff says that after Time Warner acquired WCW, the new favorite corporate buzzword in all the management meetings was “synergy.” Eric says that when he was President of WCW, right after the merger he kept getting all sorts of pressure to promote other Time Warner projects in WCW, and that Ready to Rumble was also part of the “synergy.” - Eric says he was actually supposed to be a producer on Ready to Rumble and had been slated to actually act in the film, in the role of “Titus Sinclair” but Eric was fired from WCW in September 1999, so the role went to Joe Pantoliano instead. Eric and David joke that Eric Bischoff missed his big shot to make it in Hollywood due to being unable to appear in Ready to Rumble. - David Arquette says that all joking aside, the whole point of his documentary is that it’s never too late. Arquette says the message he is trying to get out with the movie is that you can always chase your dreams, change your destiny and prove to other people that you can accomplish anything. - Eric Bischoff says that in all sincerity, he got teary-eyed watching the documentary at times because he knows how hard Arquette was trying to make his dream of being a respected Pro Wrestler happen. - David Arquette says he appreciates that, and that he appreciates Eric Bischoff’s friendship. Arquette briefly mentions some other projects they have worked on together outside of Pro Wrestling, including a 3-D animated short film. - Eric Bischoff says that after seeing the documentary, he feels he has seen David Arquette on a level he had never seen before. - David Arquette says that the documentary happened at a time in his life that he was going through a lot of problems, most notably his alcoholism and other addiction issues. Arquette is quick to point out that although he has conquered his addictions, he still smokes pot because “he needs to” and it takes him to “his chill place” and without it he just gets too crazy. (Sidenote: For the record, there is little doubt in my mind that David Arquette was quite high during this interview. He seemed to find pretty much everything funny and was prone to extended fits of giggling, and found things very funny that did not seem to be funny. SO ANNOYING.) - Eric Bischoff says one of the things he was also impressed with during the documentary was how open David Arquette was showing his struggles with addiction and Mental Health issues. Bischoff says that takes a lot of balls. - David Arquette says that in acting and in Pro Wrestling, you have to find what is real. Arquette says documentary films are only compelling if there are truly “cringe worthy” moments in them, so he had to show everything. - Arquette says getting so heavily involved in Pro Wrestling has definitely helped his acting abilities, because there is so much storytelling in Pro Wrestling...and a lot of communicating emotions to a crowd during a match, without saying anything. - Arquette says that he absolutely loves Pro Wrestling but he can’t do it anymore because it hurts him and of the toll it has taken on him physically. Arquette says he wants to stay involved in the Pro Wrestling business though, and would love to become a manager like Bobby “The Brain” Heenan. - David Arquette says he loves how heel managers take pratfalls, but he doesn’t want people to think they are botches that aren’t done deliberately. - Eric Bischoff jokes that if David Arquette transitions into becoming a manager, they can make a sequel to the documentary. - David Arquette says the pandemic has totally screwed up the distribution plans for the film, and that it will not be playing in a lot of theatres and will most likely be sold to streaming services. Arquette says they have not yet secured a distribution deal for Japan, and he hopes when they do he can go there, because he loves Japan and the country’s history when it comes to Professional Wrestling. Arquette says if he could wrestle in Japan, he would do a sequel to the documentary. - Eric Bischoff asks about the circumstances when David Arquette won the WCW World Title. Bischoff pointed out that due to the stipulations of the match, David had actually pinned Eric Bischoff himself to win the World Heavyweight Championship. - Bischoff says that after he was fired from WCW in September 1999, Vince Russo was hired and brought in. However, after a few months Turner Broadcasting was not happy with the job Russo was doing, so Eric Bischoff was hired back for the specific purpose of working with Vince Russo and communicating his creative plans back to the Turner organization. As such, any major angles Russo wanted to do at that time had to technically be approved by Eric Bischoff...so Bischoff says he has been taking shit from the fans and other Pro Wrestlers for years for approving the angle where David Arquette won the World Title. - Eric Bischoff says that for years he had assumed that Vince Russo came up with the idea for David Arquette to win the title, but he just recently found out that Tony Schiavone had been sitting in on creative meetings and he was the one who pitched the idea, and Russo went with it. Bischoff says that Vince Russo has been taking credit for the idea, but he has confirmed it was legitimately Tony’s idea. - Bischoff says the old saying is true: “Success has many Fathers but failure is an orphan” but if he is being honest he must admit that Russo did bring the idea to him for approval and Eric gave the angle his approval. Eric says that he honestly didn’t have a problem with the angle but if he had been involved in the creative, he probably would not have tried to portray David Arquette as a sympathetic babyface. Bischoff says he will defend the decision to put the World Title on Arquette but feels it would have been much more effective if it had been done with Arquette playing the sneaky cheating heel and really played up the most obviously annoying parts of the story...like that the win was a fluke and Arquette didn't "deserve" it. - Eric Bischoff says that it has always been his feeling that David Arquette took a lot of heat from hardcore Pro Wrestling fans for winning the WCW World Heavyweight Championship. - David Arquette says that he did. - Eric Bischoff says that hardcore Pro Wrestling fans can be very hard on the talent, and “they have memories like Elephants...and they don’t forgive anything.” - David Arquette agrees and says that the other thing is that some hardcore Pro Wrestling fans seem to take things very personal and can get very intense. - Arquette says he thinks maybe a lot of hardcore fans didn’t realize that he was also a lifelong Pro Wrestling fan, and maybe they resented him because they thought he was just some actor who came in and participated in the angle thinking the entire sport was a joke. - Arquette says he doesn’t think Pro Wrestling is a joke at all. Arquette says that he actually enjoys reading about Pro Wrestling and learning about the sport. Arquette says that he really enjoyed Eric Bischoff’s book and lists Jim Ross’s books as helping him learn about the backstage environment as well. - Arquette admits he was naive about how the fans would take his World Title win. Arquette says he thought the fans would like it, because he is a fan just like they are and he hoped the fans would almost see it as if one of their own won the World Title. - Arquette says when the idea was presented to him, he was very excited and thought it would be fun. - Arquette says he was also not prepared for the reaction he got backstage either. He admits that he never thought about how many of the other Pro Wrestlers had worked hard their entire careers and had never been given the same chance that David Arquette just walked in and was handed simply because he was famous. - Arquette tells a story about how he was backstage after winning the World Title, he walked up to Booker T and asked him casually: “Hey, how many times have you been World Champion?” and claims Booker just gave him a look and said: “None.” Arquette says that really hit him. - David Arquette says Vince Russo seemed totally oblivious to the idea that any of the Pro Wrestlers might have a problem with him winning the World Title. - Arquette says the reaction really hurt him and that: “this thing I loved was now hurting me.” - Arquette says the decision still haunts him to this day. He says he was recently reading the newspaper, and read an article saying that the International House of Pancakes was thinking of changing their name to the International House of Burgers, so IHOP would now be IHOB. Arquette says the newspaper article claimed: “IHOP changing their name would be the worst idea since David Arquette became World Heavyweight Champion” and it really shocked him how many people were upset about it, and how widespread the disdain was, and that is still going on all this time later. - David Arquette says over the past 18 years he has been the butt of a lot of jokes and he is used as the “low bar” when fans are talking about the worst things to ever happen in Pro Wrestling. -Arquette says the reaction backstage was so negative, and he was so tired of all the other talent thinking he was a “pussy” that he seriously considered picking a fight with Tank Abbott to prove he is a man. Arquette says the problem was, he got along great with Tank Abbott and he was really a nice guy so he didn’t want to pick a fight with him. - Eric asks how David Arquette came up with the idea for this documentary. - David Arquette says he is close friends with Dave Lagana, and it was actually Lagana who gave him the idea, years ago. Arquette says he has a writer friend named Ben Joseph, who is a writer for The Simpsons, and when Arquette told Joseph Lagana’s idea, Joseph really encouraged him to go for it. - Arquette talks about how he had a heart attack a few years ago, and how when he was rushed to the hospital and thought he was going to die, he thought about how he had tried to be a good person and he knew his family loved him. Arquette says he then started thinking about what other people would say about him if he died, and he said that believe it or not, he was there in the hospital having a heart attack and one of the thoughts which came to his mind was “I bet Pro Wrestling fans will be happy if I die...they really hate me.” Arquette says that is when he fully realized how much the whole situation really bothered him and he had really been holding onto the situation. - Arquette says he saw the episode of “Dark Side of the Ring” about the Brawl for All. Arquette says that he agrees the idea was stupid, but if he could have had a chance to participate in the that event, maybe Pro Wrestling fans would have respected him more for at least being tough. - Arquette says he needed serious surgery to correct his heart problem, and he had two stents inserted in his heart. He was also told that he needed to get into better physical condition, in order to avoid any further cardiac issues. - Eric Bischoff says he remembers a couple of years ago that David Arquette called him and told him about the idea for the documentary, and Bischoff agreed to be interviewed for the film. - Eric talks about a scene in the film where David gets into a scuffle with Brian Knobbs. Eric says he is friends with a writer named Scott Silver, who wrote the movies “Joker” and “8 Mile.” Eric claims after he saw the movie, his friend Scott Silver called him and asked if the incident between Arquette and Knobbs was staged, because it looked like it was. Eric says: “no...it was real.” - David Arquette says that there are a lot of scenes in the movie that look like that, but he guarantees they are real. - Eric Bischoff says the documentary takes the viewers on a journey and shows the different levels of the Pro Wrestling industry and shows the fans things they wouldn’t normally get to see. Eric says the scenes in Mexico are a good example of that. - David Arquette says that this documentary is his “love letter” to Pro Wrestling and Pro Wrestling fans. - Arquette says that the Pro Wrestling industry has changed in the time since he was World Champion, and that thanks to guys like Daniel Bryan, fans are more willing to accept smaller guys as legitimate Pro Wrestlers. - Arquette says that once he got in shape, he was confident that he had a build which was better than most novice Pro Wrestlers because he is a bit beefier. Arquette says he usually does his own stunts, so he thinks that helped him as well. Arquette says: “I’m more Pro Wrestler than you might think.” - Arquette talks about how he broke three ribs in Mexico, but then went on to work a bunch of independent shows in the United States, and his ribs still hurt. - Arquette says he actually did a few training sessions with Johnny Rodz and he got pretty hurt doing that. - Arquette says his favorite part of the whole process is getting to know all the other Pro Wrestlers in the business. - Arquette praises Eric Bischoff for his support with the documentary. - Arquette says that he hopes the documentary will reach a lot of people who have never watched Pro Wrestling and don’t know what it is all about. - Arquette says he was concerned about showing too much of what goes on behind the scenes, so he would always get permission from everybody backstage before filming. - Eric Bischoff says David Arquette underwent a pretty impressive physical transformation during the documentary and asked about how that was. - David Arquette says that he is used to undergoing big physical transformations for acting roles. Arquette says for example, he once had to play a prisoner in a concentration camp, so he had to lose a ton of weight so he would be all bony looking. - Arquette talks about the intensive training regimen he underwent, eliminating carbs from his diet, increasing his water intake and taking all sorts of MMA training all to lose weight, get in shape and help him with his Pro Wrestling. - Arquette says it’s like the training the actors in the Marvel movies have had to do for the Superhero Movies. - Eric Bischoff praises the actual look of the film, the music and the choreography. He says it was very professionally done and looked great. - Bischoff says he loved how the documentary came full circle and told a redemption story. - Bischoff asks which moment during the film did he feel the whole process was really worth it? - David Arquette talks about how a hardcore fan came up to him and told him that he didn’t have anything to prove anymore and that he shouldn’t be putting himself through all this, and Arquette says that was really nice because that is kind of what he wanted all along...acceptance from the fans. - Arquette says the main thing that made him feel good is that he was finally accepted by “the boys” in the Locker Room. Arquette compares being shunned in the Pro Wrestling Locker Room to being left out on the first day of school, and says that really bothered him more than he had even admitted to himself. Arquette says he always felt like an outcast in the Pro Wrestling Locker Room. - Arquette says he respects Pro Wrestling and he went through a lot for it. - Arquette says the main theme of the documentary is about “self worth” and that is what it ended up meaning to him. - Arquette says that when he was in WCW the first time, he hung out with Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan and Sting and he went drinking and partied with them, but now he realizes he was accepted only as a fellow celebrity. Arquette says this time is different, because he is accepted as being “one of the boys” and that is what he really wanted. - David Arquette jokes about how Ric Flair was nice enough to be in the documentary, but he Flair still said some things about him that weren’t so nice. - Eric Bischoff says he got teary-eyed when he watched the final training scene in Mexico with the Luchadores because of a special honor they paid him. (Bischoff says he won’t say what because he doesn’t want to spoil the scene.) - David Arquette puts over what a big deal Lucha Libre is in Mexico from a cultural standpoint. - Arquette says a little thing like fans patting him on the back and giving him high fives might seem like a small thing but it meant so much to him. - Arquette says it was so much hard work, it was hard physically and hard travel...but it was worth it. - Eric Bischoff says it’s especially hard when you get your jugular vein cut. - David Arquette says he didn’t realize how much “death matches” had evolved from just chairs and stuff, and now there are florescent light tubes. But he did it because he has a high tolerance for pain. - Arquette says the injury to his neck was his fault, because he didn’t do what was planned during the spot, he grabbed Nick Gage’s legs when he shouldn’t have, and turned when he was taking the bump so he landed wrong. Arquette says if he had stuck to the plan and done the spot the way it was intended, that never would have happened. - Arquette says he has no problem with Nick Gage, and he appreciates him. - Eric Bischoff asks how people can see the documentary. - David Arquette says he hopes it will be available on all platforms as of September 2020. - Eric Bischoff spends the next couple of minutes praising David Arquette as a person and praising the documentary, and then David Arquette returns the favor and spends a couple of minutes talking about how great Eric Bischoff is, how much he has done for his career and what a great friend he is. - Eric Bischoff ends the interview by strongly recommending everybody see “You Cannot Kill David Arquette.” ~End of Interview~ And now, because absolutely nobody asked... “You Cannot Kill David Arquette” WARNING: SPOILERS! After listening to the interview recapped above, I wanted to check out the documentary which was the main topic of the interview. I had seen a couple of people praising it online, so I wanted to see for myself. Upon looking into it, I discovered the documentary had been added to Netflix Canada a couple of weeks ago. (I have no idea if it is available in the United States, because Netflix Canada and the Netflix in the USA have totally separate film libraries.) “You Cannot Kill David Arquette” is a decent documentary. I can honestly say that the movie is fairly entertaining. It’s about 90 minutes long, and I was never bored. It held my interest. However, there are a couple of issues with the film, in my opinion. First and foremost, it seemed pretty obvious to me that this documentary has a bit of a credibility problem. There are quite a few scenes in this film that appear to be staged...and an argument can be made that the entire premise of the movie is structured in such a way to allow a prearranged narrative to be laid out. I know this sounds hilarious when discussing a documentary about Pro Wrestling, but there are some credibility issues with this movie. It’s presented as a supposedly legitimate documentary...and I don’t buy it. The premise is pretty simple. It is pretty much as described in the interview above with Eric Bischoff. David Arquette was at one point a successful actor with a promising career and some decent long term prospects. Through a combination of bad career choices, addiction problems and mental health challenges, he has fallen on hard times. They do the expected dive into Arquette’s family history with interesting interviews with his family members and lots of clips of his film career and different talk show appearances. We see him at home with his family. I have no issue with that set up, and it seems to be fairly accurate. What is sort of suggested (although not said outright) is that part of the reason Arquette has faded into obscurity is due to his fascination with Professional Wrestling. We see an interview with Arquette’s ex-wife Courtney Cox where she discuses how she was embarrassed by the way he behaved when he attended live Pro Wrestling events, and especially how he acted when he was involved in the storyline in WCW 18 years ago. Arquette talks about how Pro Wrestling fans got on his case for winning the World Title, and we see a bunch of clips of people trashing him on YouTube, and other interviews with people bemoaning the whole situation. Arquette admits he is an alcoholic and is struggling with depression and anxiety. The first fishy scene is when he goes into the hospital for an experimental treatment involving a ketamine injection to treat his depression. The whole scene seemed really staged to me, and I have doubts about any credible doctor who would allow such a treatment to be filmed. Not to mention, Arquette’s reaction to the treatment is quite honestly more than a little hammy, and not terribly convincing...but maybe that’s just my take. Now that he’s been treated for his anxiety and depression, Arquette decides to attend a Pro Wrestling fanfest. He claims this is the first time he has been invited to such an event, and he excitedly goes into his Storage Locker and pulls out an old Halloween costume or something, which appears to be some sort of Wizard’s cape or something. He then goes to visit a professional photographer, and has a stack of pictures taken which he will bring with him to the autograph signing. The whole photo shoot scene is also really over the top and downright goofy. Arquette claimed in the interview that he basically wants to be respected and taken seriously by the Pro Wrestling business...but in this scene (and others) he acts in a way that pretty much guarantees that he won’t be taken seriously by anybody. He basically prances around in his underwear and acts like a total jackass...which is fine, but it doesn’t seem to lend much credence to the whole “I want respect” argument he has been making. So we’re off to the autograph show, and it ends up being like a scene out of Spinal Tap, or maybe “The Wrestler.” Nobody wants to talk to David Arquette. Nobody wants his autograph. He poses for some pictures with the other Pro Wrestlers at the show, but basically the whole thing is a washout. Once again, it’s possible this scene is documented as it actually happened...but it seemed to me to be very staged. After the autograph signing, Arquette goes into a bar and tries to talk to some of the wrestlers who were there. He walks up to Brian Knobbs, who gets in Arquette’s face and a shoving match ensues. We are supposed to believe that Knobbs doesn’t like Arquette because he “doesn’t respect the business.” David Arquette is very upset at this reception, and leaves. Based on this incident, David Arquette decides he is going to train to become a Pro Wrestler. He is going to earn the respect of the fans and “the boys.” He informs his wife and kids. Arquette’s wife and his teenage daughter are not enthused about the idea. Once again, the whole autograph signing and shoving match in the bar come across to me as highly suspect. I’m not an idiot, I know practically all documentaries and reality shows involve a lot of manufactured scenarios or pre-planned situations, but to me this all seemed to be blatantly so. If you’re going to stage something, you need to do it in a convincing manner. I just didn’t buy this. So David Arquette meets up with a backyard wrestler and works a backyard show in front of literally nobody but the other backyard wrestlers. The ring breaks during the match, and comedy ensues of course. Not to mention, the cast of characters who are in attendance at this backyard show are basically a bunch of fat, out of shape and ridiculous looking oddballs, who take themselves totally seriously and are spouting every Pro Wrestling industry cliche you can imagine. It was during this scene that I fully understood...this documentary is not really intended for Pro Wrestling fans. This is for people who don’t watch Pro Wrestling. It is intended to make David Arquette a sympathetic character, and it plays portrays Pro Wrestlers and Pro Wrestling fans as fodder for comedy. Which is fine, but once again...it kind of flies in the face of Arquette’s whole “I want respect” credo. David Arquette starts training with some guy I have never seen or heard of before, and starts learning to do bumps in a “wrestling school” in a dilapidated barn. Once again, the trainer is super serious about this whole deal and gravely gives an interview explaining how serious this training is, and how he is really going to put Arquette through the paces. Neither the trainer or any of the other students look like they have ever seen the inside of a gym before, which I assume is intended to enforce the fact that Arquette is starting his journey on the proverbial bottom rung of the Pro Wrestling ladder. Next up, David Arquette heads to Mexico. He meets up with Diamond Dallas Page who of course happens to be doing DDP Yoga and wearing DDP Yoga gear and says he will help train...whereupon they start doing...surprise...DDP Yoga! DDP’s speech to David Arquette during this scene is also very contrived and hammy. After his training with DDP, Arquette hooks up with a trio of very chubby luchadores, and trains in what appears to either be a basement or maybe an abandoned warehouse. He wrestles in a trios match in front of maybe 50 fans, if that. He executes a couple of fairly basic moves, and is rewarded by being given his very own lucha mask, which he takes as a great honor. This is the scene Eric Bischoff referred to in the interview. There is a really weird scene where Arquette hangs out on a street corner in the middle of a busy intersection somewhere in Mexico. While the motorists are waiting for the lights to change, Arquette and his chubby lucha pals execute little staged lucha fights, in the middle of the street...and then beg for change. Of course, David Arquette doesn’t earn any money. David Arquette returns home, sets up a wrestling ring in his backyard and commits to his training. Arquette is seen training with Peter Avalon, and as time passes he clearly gets into better and better physical condition. He goes from being kind of doughy looking to being in pretty decent shape. Most notably, he starts working at “Championship Wrestling from Hollywood.” He works an angle with a guy from CWH whose name I forget. He starts giving interviews about his new career on shows like Wendy Williams and Ellen, and TMZ picks up on the story and airs a piece about him. Arquette’s career on the independent scene starts to pick up some steam. His wife and daughter come and watch him on Championship Wrestling from Hollywood, and his daughter supposedly enjoys herself. To me, these are the best scenes in the movie, because they come across as the least staged and fake parts. Arquette really does train with Peter Avalon. He really does get into much better shape, although I could have lived without the scenes of him trying to use spray tan with a sock hanging over his dick. That scene, like many others just comes across as obviously intended to get laughs...it doesn’t seem natural, it just seems like cheap and not really effective comedy. Throughout this whole journey, we see a couple of interviews with David Arquette’s wife. She talks about how she used to work for Entertainment Tonight, but now she has gotten into film producing. She gravely informs us she is very worried about her husband’s health and well being. She even implies that David becoming a Pro Wrestler might cost him their marriage. And then during the end credits...she is listed as a producer for the documentary...because if your husband is doing something which could end your marriage, the natural thing to do is produce it. Finally, we build up to a match between David Arquette and Nick Gage. The match goes fairly well, until Nick Gage introduces florescent light tubes into the proceedings. A spot gets botched, and glass gets driven into the neck of David Arquette, Despite the injury, Arquette bravely finishes the match, but then his friend Luke Perry rushes him to the hospital. This is pretty much the biggest scene in the movie. It made the news all over the world when it happened. We see a montage of media coverage of the incident, including an audio clip of Jim Cornette having the expected reaction. I am of two minds about this scene. It certainly looked real. Arquette has a large scar on the side of his neck now. The reason I have doubts about the whole thing is because the entire documentary up to this point has seemed to contrived and staged...and let’s be honest...the publicity generated by this incident was pretty much the whole selling point of the documentary. If this injury was actually legitimate, then all I’ll say is that it ended up being the best and most helpful life threatening injury in Pro Wrestling history. In the end, I’ll say this...I am willing to believe that something went wrong in the match between David Arquette and Nick Gage, but if it turns out that the whole thing was a work, I wouldn’t be one little bit surprised. After the injury, David Arquette falls back into depression and starts drinking again. He spends his time sitting alone in the dark, watching old Macho Man matches. He talks (not for the first time) about how beautiful Miss Elizabeth is, and how much she looks like his wife. They zoom in and focus on a picture of Elizabeth wearing a red dress. But his wife isn’t there...she has gone away for work. But now a chance for redemption arrives. It is the one year anniversary of the fanfest that started this whole journey, the place where nobody wanted to talk to David Arquette or get his autograph. The place where Brian Knobbs shoved him and told him he wasn’t one of the boys. Except this year...they want David Arquette to come back, and they want him to fight Ken Anderson. Anderson of course is willing to cut a scathing promo talking about how David Arquette doesn’t respect the business and doesn’t belong in Pro Wrestling, and blah blah blah. David Arquette starts training again and we see a montage worthy of one of the Rocky movies. He lifts weights, he runs, he spars. And then the day arrives...but wait! Here’s David Arquette’s wife, and she’s dressed just like Miss Elizabeth, in a red dress, no less! Arquette wrestles Ken Anderson in a heavily edited match, and we see him executing a bunch of fairly basic Pro Wrestling moves. And after the match, the crowd embraces him and cheers for him. And more importantly...Arquette heads back to the dressing room where he is accepted and hugged by “the boys” including Brian Knobbs. We’ve now come full circle. It’s all perfect. And like I said before...it comes off as totally unbelievable and contrived. I assume this documentary is intended to impress people who don’t really know anything about Pro Wrestling. Along the way, it feeds pretty much every negative cliche about Pro Wrestling and Pro Wrestling fans. The majority of the fans shown and interviewed in this documentary are fat, pathetic looking losers. One of them happily admits that aside from being a Pro Wrestling fan, he really doesn’t have a life. Granted...a lot of those cliches are cliches for a reason. Lord knows, I’ve been to a couple of Ring of Honor shows which pretty much confirm each and every one of those stereotypes. But my issue is that if this documentary really is intended to be David Arquette’s “love letter” to Pro Wrestling, then I have to wonder why he was so happy to lean into every negative stereotype about the sport, and it’s fans? Maybe he wanted revenge for all the shit die hard fans have given him over the years...who knows. Here’s the thing... Do I believe David Arquette’s career has hit the skids? Yes. Do I think he has a substance abuse problem and mental health issues? Yes. Do I believe David Arquette is a Pro Wrestling fan? Absolutely. Do I think David Arquette took a ton of shit from hardcore fans and even a lot of Pro Wrestlers because he won the WCW World Heavyweight Championship? And do I believe that upset him? Yes, and yes. After that...your mileage may vary. His willingness to train to be a Pro Wrestler, his journey from the backyard scene to Mexico to Championship Wrestling from Hollywood, to a Death Match with Nick Gage...that was all compelling on it’s own. I don’t think the story needed to be so obviously structured and laid out in advance with a contrived narrative. Of course, in the end I guess that’s fitting because at it’s base, that’s what Pro Wrestling itself is. If you read other reviews of this documentary, it seems like I am not the only person who thought a lot of the stuff that happened in this film was a little too perfect. But who cares, I guess. It’s Pro Wrestling, so if you approach watching this documentary as if you’re watching a Pro Wrestling match, you’ll probably enjoy it. You just have to be willing to suspend disbelief. It’s like any good Pro Wrestling match. Entertaining...as long as you don’t think about it too hard.

Like everybody else here, when I first listened to the interview with Jim Herd, there were quite a few things that almost jumped out at me. I agree that the popular narrative has always been that Jim Herd was just some clueless putz that used to be the Vice President of Pizza Hut, that Ted Turner chose him to run WCW for some inexplicable reason. That idea has largely been pushed by Jim Cornette and Ric Flair, and to a degree by Jim Ross. On top of that, if you read "The Death of WCW" which for a lot of hardcore Pro Wrestling fans is kind of seen on the definitive word on the historically inept management of WCW...that book does not paint Jim Herd in a very flattering light at all. Clearly, Jim Herd was a lot more qualified to run WCW than most people ever knew. He had promoted shows for Vince Sr., and he was in charge of syndicating and promoting "Wrestling at the Chase." It turns out he was actually one of the guys who first sold Ted Turner on broadcasting Pro Wrestling, before Turner even ran The Superstation. So it makes sense Turner would hire him. On top of that, he was an experienced executive who could be expected to function well within the corporate environment at Turner Broadcasting. So basically, I think the traditional narrative that Jim Herd was "not qualified" to run WCW is bullshit. Secondly, I agree that Herd probably gets blamed for a lot of crap that in hindsight was clearly either not his fault, or was outside his scope of influence. It wasn't his decision to tone down the product or get rid of violence (although he clearly agreed with the decision) and it wasn't his idea to try and cater the product more to kids (although once again, he was obviously all for the idea.) It wasn't his decision to force out Dusty Rhodes and Jim Crockett, and basically alienate a lot of the older fans of JCP. And it sounds like a good many of the stupid things that happened while Herd was in charge may not have been his idea. Like Robocop, or even El Gigante possibly. Jim Herd obviously did a lot of things right when he ran WCW, stuff he probably doesn't get credit for. As much as I love old school "studio wrestling" it was probably a smart idea to move out of the Techwood Studios and into arenas when they taped Television. It was a good idea to introduce better sets, lighting and pyrotechnics. Herd does deserve credit for signing Ricky Steamboat and helping present the Flair/Steamboat Trilogy and Flair/Funk feud in 89. Jim Herd was one of the first guys I've ever heard of who actually did Market Research for Pro Wrestling, which from a business standpoint is smart. Having said all that...I still think Herd deserves to take a lot of shit for some of the decisions he made when he ran WCW. Herd promoted shows for Vince McMahon Sr., and he promoted shows for Sam Muchnick. He promoted them, but he never booked them. He wasn't a booker and he clearly was not a very creative person when it came to Pro Wrestling. Jim Herd had no business getting actively involved in the creative process in WCW. And it's pretty much unanimous from anybody who was ever on the WCW Booking Committee, Jim Herd was always interfering in the booking of WCW when he was in charge. He was hired to oversee the creative process, and I don't even blame him for wanting to get away from the "one booker" system and implement a Booking Committee. I don't have an issue with the Committee having to run all their storylines and angles past Herd, especially after what happened with Dusty and the spike. But I don't think Ted Turner or Jack Petrik insisted that Jim Herd get actively involved in the creative process, I think he took that upon himself. Jim Ross has said as much. I think history would probably look a lot more kindly on Jim Herd if he would have just left the booking to the Booking Committee. The Candyman was Jim Herd's idea. The Ding Dongs were Jim Herd's idea. And you saw yourself in this interview...he pitched the idea of "The Zodiac Man" and he still sounded quite proud of the idea when he talked about it, almost 30 years later. There's no way around it...these were mindbogglingly stupid ideas. People still mock Herd for The Ding Dongs, and rightfully so. I know he wanted to appeal to little kids, and I know with The Candyman and The Ding Dongs the whole idea was to sell merchandise...but come on. I will give Herd a pass on the whole "Spartacus" thing. I don't believe he ever seriously wanted Ric Flair to become Spartacus. I think people on the Booking Committee were worried that he did really want to do that, after they saw some of Herd's other genius ideas...but I think that was probably just as a joke that got out, but was repeated as a fact. I think @sek69 is right, I think by this point Ric Flair was so paranoid that he believed every rumor. I'm even willing to believe that Flair might have thought Luger was making equal or more money than he was, when it wasn't the case. I'll give Herd that much. Having worked with Sam Muchnick, Jim Herd clearly saw and enjoyed good solid Pro Wrestling matches and he said that several times during the interview with Conrad...that he wanted good, competitive matches. He wanted good, competitive matches...but he didn't see anything in The Midnight Express, who for my money are one of the greatest Tag Teams not just in WCW history, but of all time. He saw Tully Blanchard and Arn Anderson as "midcard" talent at best. I totally get Jim Herd not liking Jim Cornette. But there is another side to that story. At one point, Herd kept telling Cornette that one of the main reasons he wasn't doing more with The Midnight Express is because he thought their act was old and needed freshening up. Herd said as much during this interview. And Cornette knew that Herd hated him, and he was worried that Stan Lane and Bobby Eaton were basically being punished because Herd hated him. Cornette didn't want his friends suffering because of his own big mouth. Jim Herd wanted Cornette on the Booking Committee, and as a Color Commentator. He actually apparently offered Cornette more money to do those things than he had offered him as a talent. So Cornette actually backed down. Cornette met with the Booking Committee, and Jim Herd. Cornette agreed that they would run an injury angle, and he would retire from managing. Then, the plan was to reform the Four Horsemen as a unit with Ric Flair, Arn Anderson, Stan Lane and Bobby Eaton. Herd would get what he wanted...no more Cornette on TV and a new role for The Midnight Express, and The Midnight Express would get a new contract and more money, plus be involved in a key role, obviously. Everybody agreed. And then at the last minute, for no stated reason...Herd changed his mind and killed the deal. Then let's look at what Jim Herd did to Arn Anderson. Arn and Tully wanted out of their WWF contract because the travel was insane and they felt Vince McMahon wasn't living up to what he had promised them financially. (Arn and Tully both discussed this recently when Tully was a guest on Arn's podcast.) Tully reached out to Jim Herd and made the deal for Arn and Tully to return to WCW for a decent salary...but the key selling point was much less travel. Arn had a young son at the time, and he wanted to be able to spend more time with his family. So they gave their notice, and then Tully flunked the drug test. I don't have a problem with Jack Petrik pulling Tully Blanchard's contract due to the drug test failure. Jim Ross, Arn Anderson, Jim Cornette, Ric Flair and Tully himself have all claimed that Tully went to Herd and offered to go to rehab or do whatever he had to do in order to earn the spot back, and it was Herd who said no. If he was doing that at Jack Petrik's order, we'll never know. But Herd's decision to dramatically cut Arn Anderson's contract by almost two-thirds and tell him that without Tully Blanchard he wasn't worth as much...that's just plain old bullshit. Arn Anderson has gone on record saying that if he had known that was going to happen, he never would have left the WWF. Arn has said that everybody in the WWF was extremely positive with him when he finished out his WWF dates teaming with Haku instead of Tully, and there were apparently some inferences made to him that if he wanted to stay and keep teaming with Haku, that would have worked out. But Arn left because he had a deal with Jim Herd, and Herd welched on the deal. The guy had a family to take care of, and Jim Herd basically fucked him on the deal...and then told him that if it was a problem he should go and ask Vince McMahon for his job back. During the interview with Conrad, even after all this time...Herd went to great lengths to try and dance around the fact that he had financial discretion when it came to contracts. Herd had a mandate from Turner via Petrik to keep expenses under control, sure...but Jim Herd had full discretion when it came to the amount talents would be paid. He didn't have to do that to Arn Anderson, he just did it because he could. It's possible he did it just to screw with Ric Flair. Bottom line is, Jim Herd is a guy who claims he was interested in promoting good Pro Wrestling matches, but he didn't see the value in The Midnight Express and Arn and Tully...so basically fuck that guy. And that's not even getting into his relationship with Ric Flair. Most hardcore fans agree that 1989 was the best year of Flair's career. Herd was right there for that, but he still seemed to enjoy fucking with Flair for no real reason I can see. And I'm sorry...I just don't buy the whole "Flair didn't want to lose" story from Herd. Flair has said repeatedly that he didn't want to lose to Luger, but he had no issue putting Sting over. Herd tried to paint Flair in this interview as one of those guys who wouldn't do jobs, and I don't think history bears that out. You can say what you want about Ric Flair, but he never seemed to have a problem losing to a lot of different guys, on a lot of different occasions. I think Flair just didn't trust Jim Herd being involved with booking, and based on the evidence...can you blame him? Trust me, after I listened to this interview a couple of times I ended up feeling sorry for the sad, feeble old man who doesn't have any friends after all those years in Pro Wrestling. And I do feel bad that guys like Cornette and Flair (and a lot of other people) have basically had a field day bashing the guy for the past 30 years and blaming all the ills of WCW solely on him. But even Herd admitted during this interview that he was a loudmouth, and there is plenty of evidence that he was a bit of a stubborn asshole when he ran WCW. He may not have been as big of an asshole as we've been led to believe, and he might not have been responsible for all the asshole decisions we've been told he was...but he was still an asshole.

I have no idea how this game works, but if one of you guys can shoot me a PM and explain it to me, I'd be interested. I'd be all over that Maple Leaf Wrestling territory, but I want somebody to tell me how it works.

No, Ad Free Shows has never posted audio versions of any of the podcast Live Shows. I think you're probably right, I would assume Bruce might have possibly said a few things during those shows back in the early days of Something To Wrestle which he most likely wouldn't like repeated at this point. You could tell during the first year or two of that show he thought there was little chance of his ever going back to work for Vince, so he was a little bit more likely to say things somewhat negative or critical of WWE, although not much. The whole idea of the hosts getting drunk and saying something controversial ended up being a "work" anyhow, as it turns out. I guess during the shows, Bruce would always be supposedly chugging Miller Lite, with the whole supposed appeal that he might just slip up say something controversial...which you could only see if you bought a ticket to a Live Show. So a couple of years ago around Wrestlemania, he ended up having Eric Bischoff as a guest at one of his STW Live Shows. Eric is a pretty legendary drinker, so he started matching Bruce, beer for beer. Every time Bruce opened a beer, Eric would chug one. Only problem is, Bruce wasn't really drinking...he was just pretending for the sake of the crowd. Bischoff only found that out after drinking a ton of beer, when he kicked over all of Bruce's supposed "empty" cans under the table, and found out they were still full. The whole "Bruce might get drunk and say something he shouldn't" was pretty much just a gimmick to get people to come to the Live Shows. The funniest part was that right after the Live Show, Bruce, Eric and JBL had to go and film an episode of Table for 3 for the WWE Network and if you watch that episode...Eric is visibly drunk because he thought he was keeping up with Bruce...but nope! Carnies gonna Carny, I guess. To his credit, Conrad has pretty freely admitted all this on his "Ask Conrad Anything" podcast. All those times you could hear Bruce popping open a can during an episode of STW, and saying "It's Miller Time" Conrad has since admitted that Bruce was actually drinking Coke Zero. I think Prichard still drinks, but nowhere near as much as he pretended he does...especially after his two heart attacks. Alcohol and heart medication do not mix well, I know this from personal experience. Ad Free Shows consistently posts audio versions of the Live Shows and Panels from all the various Starrcast conventions, but they've never posted any other "live" content. They have been going back through the back catalogue of Conrad's podcasts and are uploading them with the ads cut out, which is good. Plus, they are uploading all of JR and Bruce's original podcasts, as well as both Ric Flair shows. They are even going to be adding JR's old Radio Show from Altanta back in the 90's, apparently.

No, he didn't. To be honest, I'm not sure he would have been able to remember. Conrad kind of had to lead him through the timeline of the interview. Herd could remember big details of particular incidents but I got the general impression that he wasn't totally clear on dates and stuff like that. No, Conrad talked about this on an episode of "Ask Conrad Anything." Conrad said that after the taped portion of the interview was over, Herd signed some memorabilia for him, and as he did that Conrad confessed to Herd that Ric Flair was his wife's Father. Conrad said that Herd was surprised, but he didn't seem upset about it at all. The other thing Conrad talked about was how he was impressed about how highly Jim Herd spoke of Jim Ross during the interview. Based on that, Conrad actually called JR on the phone while he was sitting there with Jim Herd, and he put JR on the phone to talk to Herd. Conrad said that Herd was thrilled to talk to Jim Ross again after all these years and it was actually a touching scene to witness. You have to keep in mind that although JR has taken his fair share of shots at Jim Herd over the years, he has never been anywhere near as mean spirited as people like Ric Flair or Jim Cornette. JR has talked at length on his podcast about his relationship with Herd. JR claims that he was the only person on the entire WCW Booking Team who actually lived in Atlanta, as did Jim Herd. Consequently, when the work week was over, the other members of the Booking Committee would leave Atlanta and fly home, leaving just JR and Jim Herd in the offices. JR has even said that he took a fair bit of shit from his coworkers about being friendly with Herd, but JR admits that he liked Herd as a person, especially when you got him away from the office and dealing with business. JR says that he and Herd went out to dinner quite a few times, and I believe they may have done a bit of drinking together as well. The only two things that Conrad really pressed him on was when you could tell Herd was trying to avoid discussing the details about why he cut Flair's contract, and also why he backed out of the deal he had with Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard. Other than that, the interview felt like more of a friendly conversation than anything. I have to give Conrad a lot of credit for how he handled that interview. You could tell that he was walking a fine line, because he wanted to get Herd's version of a lot of the more controversial things that came up while he ran WCW, like the Flair contract dispute, Tully Blanchard's firing, Jim Cornette, El Gigante, Robocop, etc...but he didn't want to be an asshole about it. Like I said, at this point Jim Herd kind of comes across as a kindly old man, hardly the blowhard he has been made out to be over the years. And I don't doubt that Herd was a bit of a loudmouth when he ran WCW...he admitted as much in this interview. But at this point, he just seems like a somewhat sad old man, telling stories.

After listening to the interview, I don't have much doubt that Herd legitimately didn't know who was interviewing Flair. Firstly, Conrad is just assuming that it was the interview Flair did with Austin, it's possible Flair could have been doing some other TV interview with somebody who was bald. Plus, when Herd talked about seeing the interview with Flair you could tell he was trying to remember the name of the person who was doing the interview, but he just couldn't come up with the name at that moment. I don't know about in St. Louis, but here in Toronto they have shown "The Broken Skull Sessions" on our cable Sports Network. I know WWE is letting some of the Sports Networks in North America show some of their previously Network exclusive stuff, since the Sports Networks are starved for original content due to the pandemic, and it works to WWE's advantage since it is basically a free preview for them of the WWE Network. Herd didn't actually say he watches wrestling whenever it's on TV. He said that he'll watch wrestling if it's on TV, but I think it's more like he'll watch it when he's channel surfing but he was pretty clear that he doesn't actively follow the product. I got the impression that he still feels kind of betrayed by the entire business, even after all these years. Bottom line is, the dude is 88 years old. My Dad is 81, and he can tell me word for word about a conversation he had with one of his teachers when he was in High School, but then he'll tell me the same thing that happened today, three times in the same conversation. Memory is a weird thing. It didn't come across in the recap, but Conrad did a hell of a job keeping Herd on topic and kind of leading him through the interview. Whenever Herd started to meander off topic, Conrad would kind of steer him back in the right direction.

I agree. You know one other thing that has made me scratch my head? What the HELL was Dusty Rhodes thinking when he booked that angle where The Road Warriors drove the spike into his eye? He had supposedly been specifically told to NOT do anything like that, and it seems like he almost went out of his way to defy Ted Turner's orders, right after Turner had rescued the company from closing down when JCP basically went broke. I have heard JR talk about that, and he has never really been able to shed any light on why Dusty would have done that, when he pretty much had to know it was going to result in a major backlash. I even had the RF Video Shoot Interview with The Road Warriors on VHS, and even they said they thought it was a stupid idea and was basically pointless.

Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback.

Thanks, I am glad you enjoyed it. I hope @Dooley, @MoS, @ButchReedMark, @Matt D, @clintthecrippler and @PeteF3 enjoyed it as well, since they all voted for it. Hope the interview lived up to everybody's expectations. So there is some news on the "Conversations with Conrad" front. Conrad has announced that his next interview has been lined up for next month, and the guest will be none other than Jim Crockett. I assume everybody will be interested in reading a recap of that interview once it is released on Ad Free Shows? As far as my next recap, I am kind of leaning toward "The Plane Ride From Hell" episode with Jim Ross. A couple of people expressed interest in that one. So I think I will tackle that next, unless anybody has any other requests before that?

Ad Free Shows Exclusive “Conversations with Conrad” With former WCW Executive Vice President Jim Herd: Part 2 - The Conclusion November 10, 2020 - Conrad says that it has been reported that in the July of 1991, Ric Flair and Jim Herd were involved in a contract dispute. Conrad says Ric Flair claims that Jim Herd not only refused to pay Flair what he had been earning on his previous contract, but Herd wanted to cut Flair’s existing contract. - Jim Herd becomes a little evasive at this point. Herd says: “You know...those things deteriorate. Things happen, or couldn’t happen. So he ends up with Vince. Vince sees an opening...so he does it.” - Conrad says that the posters for The Great American Bash had already been printed, and the Main Event had been advertised as Flair vs. Luger for the World Heavyweight Championship. Conrad says the story has always been that Ric Flair was told to drop the title to Lex Luger but he refused and stopped working. - Conrad asks Jim Herd directly: What was the reason for the “divorce” between Ric Flair and WCW? Conrad asks Jim Herd if it is true that Herd asked Ric Flair to take a pay cut, or did Herd just refuse to pay Flair more on his new contract? - Jim Herd says: “I didn’t want to pay Flair the same amount I had been paying. I was getting pressure to save money because money wasn’t coming in.” - Conrad asks if Jim Herd thinks Ric Flair was justified wanting to keep making the same amount he had been making...$750,000 a year, considering the fact that Lex Luger was making $600,000 a year and Sting was making even more than that. - Jim Herd gets a little defensive at this point and says: “Lex Luger never made more than $240,000 a year. Never! So the difference between Ric Flair’s contract and Lex Luger’s contract was huge.” - Herd says you can try and keep everybody happy so they will all work together and fulfill Ted Turner’s vision, but you have to remember that Ted Turner was the one making the rules, and he had to follow them. Herd says the wrestlers in WCW never understood that. Herd says Ric Flair wouldn’t accept Ted Turner’s financial offer. - Conrad asks how much these contract negotiations were complicated by Ric Flair’s attorney Dennis Guthrie. - Herd gets a little snarky again. “I never liked him from the day I first saw him coming through the door.” Herd says that Guthrie tried to act like he was in control of the negotiations from the beginning but Herd told him “The guy backing me (Turner) is the one in control, because he’s got the cold, hard, cash.” - Conrad asks if Jim Herd regrets how this situation ended up. - Jim Herd says: “Yeah, I do. I always thought Ric and I were friends...but actually it turned out that Ric didn’t even like me that much.” (Sidenote: I have to admit, the way Jim Herd made the above statement was really kind of sad. Recapping just the words really doesn’t convey the emotion in Herd’s voice, he sounded quite wistful about the relationship between himself and Ric Flair. I never thought I’d ever end up feeling sorry for Jim Herd, but the way he answered that question, I absolutely did.) - Herd says that as “the man in the middle” between Ted Turner/Jack Petrick and Ric Flair, he ended up taking the brunt of all the criticism. - Conrad says that Jim Herd has always been criticized for trying to get the World Championship off Ric Flair and onto somebody else, but Conrad asks if that is a fair criticism, since Herd had been given the mandate to make as much money as possible and WCW wasn’t drawing money at that time? - Jim Herd says WCW was losing money at first, but when they started to cut house shows and just focused on being a TV product, they started to make money. Herd says the production costs and overhead for running house shows was huge and they weren’t drawing the fans to justify it. Herd says that by reducing the production costs they started to save quite a bit of money. - Conrad asks if the return of Dusty Rhodes to WCW was one of the reasons Ric Flair wanted to leave? - Jim Herd says he doesn’t think so. Herd says that Dusty was initially supposed to come back as a performer but he ended up on the Booking Committee. Herd says that Dusty had lost a lot of energy and was not the same man when he came back from the WWF, and reiterates that all Dusty seemed to care about was pushing his son Dustin, and that he presented no threat to Ric Flair. - Conrad says that it was reported that on July 8, 1991 there was one final meeting between Ric Flair and his lawyer Dennis Guthrie with Jim Herd and Jack Petrik at the Ritz-Carlton in Atlanta, where one last pitch was made to try and salvage the relationship between Ric Flair and WCW. - Jim Herd confirms that is true. - Conrad asks if it is true that at this meeting, Herd acquiesced to Ric Flair’s salary demands and offered him the contract for $750,000 but only for one year, and with a Non-Disclosure Agreement. - Jim Herd says that is true. - Conrad asks why this contract wasn’t accepted, since it was for the amount Ric Flair had originally asked for? - Herd says that by this point, Flair’s ego wouldn’t allow him to accept the contract. Herd says Flair wanted to be the top guy, and a guarantee that he would make the top money and he wouldn’t let anybody else be the top guy. - Conrad says Dave Meltzer claimed the only reason that WCW made the offer is because the Turner organization realized that they had no legal standing to release Ric Flair before his existing contract had expired? Conrad asks, what was the real reason for this meeting...was it because Jim Herd wanted to resolve the dispute, or because Turner’s legal team forced him to? - Jim Herd says: “I guess it was a little of both.” Herd says the lawyers were worried that Ric Flair would sue them for breaching his existing contract. Herd says the Turner lawyers were also worried about the legal question of who actually owned the World Heavyweight Championship. - Conrad asks about the controversy surrounding the ownership of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship. - Herd says that as far as he was concerned, the Turner organization and WCW owned the title belt, but Flair felt because he was the Champion, it was in his possession so he felt he owned it. - Jim Herd says that he always calls Professional Wrestling: “The World’s Greatest Lie.” Herd says Flair never actually really “won” the belt so of course he had no actual claim to it. Herd implies that some of the Turner lawyers seemed to think Flair actually won it “fair and square.” Herd says that the whole concept of Professional Wrestling being predetermined and Championship Titles not being fairly contested was “hard for lawyers to digest.” - Conrad talks about The Great American Bash 1991, that the fans were chanting “We Want Flair” and there were anti-Dusty signs in the crowd and even a sign that said “We’ve Herd Enough.” - Conrad asks about the decision to put the World Heavyweight Championship on Lex Luger. - Jim Herd says it was difficult dealing with Lex Luger. Herd says Luger had a wife who was built like Lex was, and Luger’s wife did all the negotiating on Lex’s behalf. Herd says “I always seemed to end up negotiating with her, instead of him.” Herd says that he honestly never considered Lex Luger to be an integral part of WCW because “Lex wasn’t the greatest wrestler in the world, by any stretch of the imagination.” - Conrad says that after the fallout from Ric Flair’s departure from WCW and the Great American Bash 91, it was reported that Jim Herd stopped speaking to reporters like Dave Meltzer, Wade Keller and Steve Beverly? - Jim Herd says he was tired of reading what Dave Meltzer and other writers reported about WCW. Herd says “those guys were dreamers.” Herd says that it didn’t matter what he told reporters, they would always print what the wrestlers told them, or things they just “dreamed up.” - Herd says that he had given interviews and cooperated with the “dirt sheet” writers in the past but they never printed the truth. Herd says the reporters would never report about the reasons why Herd did what he did. - Herd says that even though he was part of “The World’s Greatest Lie” he started to get tired of all the lies that were being told inside the Pro Wrestling business. Herd says the reports were just not fair. - Conrad asks what is was like for Jim Herd when he saw the NWA World Heavyweight Championship show up on WWF television. - Jim Herd says: “it was like a slap to the side of my head.” - Herd says that around this time, he started to get really tired of dealing with all the lies and the confrontations and he said to himself: “Hey, I should go back and make pizzas.” - Herd says that by that time, “the writing was on the wall” and Ted Turner wasn’t happy with the product. - Herd reiterates that the even bigger problem for him was that the entire Turner organization seemed to hate Pro Wrestling and wanted nothing to do with it. - Herd says by this time, Jack Petrik had started to work for Turner Home Entertainment and was putting all the responsibilities for anything involving Pro Wrestling on Jim Herd...but Herd wasn’t getting any support. - Conrad asks if it is true that around this time, did Jim Herd receive a delivery of a giant wreath of dead flowers to his office? - Herd sighs and says: “Oh yeah...Cornette.” - Conrad says that around this time Jim Cornette had quit WCW because he wasn’t happy with creative and he wasn’t happy with how his boys (The Midnight Express) were being used. - Jim Herd says he liked Paul E. Dangerously, but not Jim Cornette. Jim Herd says Paul was different from Jim Cornette. Herd says Paul is smart, and he is funny whereas Cornette was mean spirited and blasphemous...and that is why Paul is still successful in the Pro Wrestling business and Cornette is not. - Herd says: “When it comes to Jim Cornette, his mouth is what made him and it eventually destroyed him.” Herd says he was tired of all the vitriol from Cornette. - Herd says: “Look...Cornette had two small guys. And you know, and everybody knows that two small guys when they wrestle bigger wrestlers, even if they’re good...they have a tougher time drawing fans than the large guys.” - Herd says Jim Cornette always negotiated on behalf of his guys and he always wanted more money because Cornette had to split the money three ways. Herd says that there was a lot of give and take in the negotiations with Cornette and The Midnight Express but finally he put his foot down and said they couldn’t have more money. - Herd admits that he tried to break up The Midnight Express and Jim Cornette and give them another manager, and have Jim Cornette manage different talent or do different things. - Conrad asks what he thought of Jim Cornette having the dead wreath delivered to his office. - Herd says he thought it was funny, that the wreath was dead and all burned up and charred. Herd says he took it down to Jim Ross’s office to show him. - Jim Herd says that Jim Cornette is another example of the old school type wrestlers who wouldn’t accept that WCW was getting away from violent content. Herd says Cornette and The Midnight Express had no issues with using a razor blade to gouge their foreheads and bleed...he was “another one of those violent types and we wanted to get rid of those.” - Conrad asks about a reporter named Steve Beverly and his newsletter “Mat Watch.” Conrad says that at one point, Jim Herd had a good relationship with Steve Beverly and used to talk to him all the time, but around this time is it true that Jim Herd got into trouble for making some controversial statements to Steve Beverly? - Specifically, Herd is alleged to have said about Ric Flair: “You’re talking about a guy who has never told the truth his whole life. He wanted to go...so we helped him.” - Conrad asks if it is true that Jim Herd got in trouble with Jack Petrik for that interview and that afterwards did Herd blame Steve Beverly? - Herd says: “Probably. I’ve got a big mouth.” - Jim Herd says that by this point, his relationship with Jack Petrik really started to deteriorate and Petrik tried to distance himself from WCW and Jim Herd. Herd says he and Jack Petrik were both getting tired of having meetings and neither one of them would get the answers they wanted. - Conrad says that it was reported that in January of 1992, Jim Herd had a meeting with Jack Petrik and complained he wasn’t getting enough support from the Turner organization in running WCW. Specifically, Herd reportedly felt Dusty Rhodes was politically manoeuvring behind Herd’s back. The reports claim that Herd demanded Dusty Rhodes be fired, but Jack Petrik refused and instead offered Herd another position with Turner Home Entertainment...and Herd refused and resigned. - Jim Herd says the meeting happened, but second part of the statement is untrue...Jack Petrik never offered him another position within the Turner organization. - Conrad asks if it is true that Jim Herd had harsh words for Dusty Rhodes, Magnum TA, and Jim Ross when he left WCW? - Herd says that it is true, and that he resented the WCW Booking Committee for giving him no support when he had to deal with Jack Petrik and the Turner organization. - Jim Herd says that in the end: “I was happy to get out of there.” - Herd says that he loved working for Sam Muchnick and he liked working for Vince McMahon Sr. Herd says that having worked with some of the all time greats in St. Louis, that was different from working for the Turner organization. Herd says there was a different trust factor between the management and the wrestlers in those days. - Conrad says that he doesn’t think Jim Herd gets enough credit for the good things he did accomplish in WCW, like presenting the Steamboat/Flair trilogy and the Flair/Funk and Flair/Sting matches. Conrad says despite that, many fans and reporters like to mock Jim Herd and his time in WCW. - Herd says he thought he had a good run, but when you work in a business that is based on lies and fabrications, you can’t expect to see the truth in print. Herd says that when you go into the Pro Wrestling business you have to accept all the lies and accept the fact that it will not last forever. - Jim Herd says Ted Turner will always be one of his heroes because he was a visionary. - Conrad asks what is Jim Herd’s biggest accomplishment in Pro Wrestling? - Jim Herd says that his biggest accomplishment was working with the great Sam Muchnick and helping promote shows in St. Louis. Herd says that he is proud that Pro Wrestling was so hot, they could sell out the Kiel Auditorium, 10,000 seats on the same night that the St. Louis Cardinals were playing. Herd says he remembers even the newspapers would marvel at the fact that the Cardinals would draw 20,000 fans on a Friday night, but Sam Muchnick would still sell out the Kiel. Herd says that’s how hot Pro Wrestling was in St. Louis. - Herd says one of his favorite stories was when Gene Kiniski was the World Heavyweight Champion in St. Louis. Herd says Kiniski had a terrible reputation for showing up late for shows. Herd says Muchnick had finally had enough of Kiniski’s tardiness and told him that the next time he showed up late, he would be given a steep fine and lose part of his payday for being so unprofessional. Herd claims that for the next show at the Kiel, Kiniski actually left his house on time and was on his way to the arena when he was pulled over by the cops and detained. Herd says Gene Kiniski was freaking out because he was going to get fined, but later he found out that the cops were friends of Sam Muchnick and Muchnick had arranged to have him pulled over and detained. Herd says Muchnick did it as a joke and to teach Kiniski how it felt to be stressed out about the show happening on time. Herd says Kiniski was never late after that. - Conrad says he forgot to ask about Jim Barnett, and if Barnett was valuable as an advisor to Jim Herd when he ran WCW? - Herd says Barnett wouldn’t think before he said things sometimes, but that he did listen to Jim Barnett. - Conrad asks if there was every anything Jim Herd wanted to do in WCW that he couldn’t accomplish. - Jim Herd says he always wished that he could have done a better job drawing kids to WCW. Herd says that is why he wanted to sign Randy Savage so badly, because The Macho Man was such a colorful character that kids loved him, and they could have got all sorts of great toy advertisements and things like that. Herd says he really thinks signing Randy Savage would have been a game changer and he has always regretted they couldn’t get the deal done. - Conrad asks why Ricky Steamboat was in WCW so briefly. Conrad says that there have been rumors that Ricky’s wife Bonnie negotiated on his behalf and that would get in that way of Ricky’s career. Conrad asks if that is true. - Jim Herd says no, he doesn’t think so. Herd says he remembers going to Steamboat’s home in North Carolina when Steamboat made the decision to leave WCW. Herd says Steamboat being at home with his family was always his main priority and Herd respected that. Herd says that after being on the road all the time in the WWF, Steamboat wanted a much lighter schedule. Herd says he thought Steamboat might have wanted out of the business altogether. - Conrad asks who the best booker Jim Herd ever worked with? - Herd says Kevin Sullivan is one of the most creative people he ever worked with. Herd says the only problem with Sullivan was that “he was also a cutter” and that he liked to book violent angles and stories and just couldn’t understand that Ted Turner wouldn’t allow that. Herd says Sullivan’s career in WCW was diminished by his refusal to accept Turner’s insistence that violence be toned down or eliminated. - Jim Herd reiterates that when he was hired, Ted Turner told him there was to be no violence, and no blood. “He didn’t even give me a grace period, he wanted that stopped immediately.” Herd says the failure by a lot of “old school” talents to understand or accept how serious Ted Turner was about that, really ended up hurting their careers. - Conrad asks about the famous incident with Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard. Conrad says that Blanchard and Anderson left the WWF and were poised to return to WCW with big contracts, when it was announced that Blanchard had failed a drug test. As a result, Blanchard’s contract offer was pulled and Anderson’s was severely reduced. - Jim Herd says he remembers going to Jack Petrik and informing him that Blanchard had failed the drug test, and that Jack Petrik made the decision to pull Blanchard’s contract. Herd says he can’t remember if Petrik consulted with Ted Turner before making that decision, but Jack Petrik “wouldn’t abide by that.” - Conrad asks if that was the right decision to make? - Herd says “We’ll never know. But they were great technical wrestlers and a great Tag Team.” - Conrad says that Tully Blanchard was considered one of the great performers in the business, but after he failed the drug test and then WCW pulled their contract offer, he ended up being finished in the business – although he is back now. - Conrad says a lot of people blame Jim Herd for ending the career of Tully Blanchard. - Jim Herd replies: “Yeah...that’s true. That’s what they say.” - Conrad asks if he thinks it’s true...did he end Tully Blanchard’s career? - Herd says that he got rid of Tully but Tully also got rid of himself, so maybe they got rid of each other. Herd says that some wrestlers think they are smart, but they only look at things from the point of view of being a wrestler, not how the office would look at it and refuse to look at things any other way. - Herd says that some guys in wrestling were good guys. Herd says that Kevin Sullivan is a perfect example, he always used to work behind the scenes trying to help others improve. Herd says he knows he is talking in circles but he hopes Conrad gets what he is trying to say. Herd basically implies that Tully Blanchard was not one of those good guys, and his career ended up being over, because he was not a good guy. - Conrad says: “Speaking of good...you know who was not good? El Gigante.” - Jim Herd says the he remembers that Jorge Gonzales had been an Olympic basketball player from Argentina, so as soon as he signed with WCW, Herd sent him to train with Hiro Matsuda. Herd says that Gonzales really didn’t pick any skills up and if you can’t learn from Hiro Matsuda, you can’t learn from anybody. Herd says that the real problem was that his heart was never in it, he really just wanted to play basketball. Herd says: “George was a really nice guy, but he just didn’t have it. Some people thought he would be the next Andre The Giant, but you just don’t replace Andre The Giant.” - Conrad says he has always wondered if it was actually Jim Herd’s idea to sign El Gigante or was Gonzales forced on Herd by the Turner organization? - Herd says he is willing to admit, he thought the idea would work. Herd says “Geez, the guy was 7 foot 3! I though Matusda would turn him into a wrestler...but we just gave up on it. If your heart isn’t in it, then your head isn’t in it.” - Conrad says the reason he asked is because he was wondering why Jim Herd would be willing to offer a guy like El Gigante a contract while cutting Arn Anderson’s contract at pretty much the same time? Conrad asks if Jim Herd thought El Gigante was more valuable than Tully Blanchard and Arn Anderson. - Jim Herd gets a little salty at that question. “Do you want to know the truth? In my opinion, I considered Arn and Tully midcard guys that could support a good show, but I gave no further thought to them. I’m sure Tully would like to hit me over the head for saying that.” - Conrad goes back to the issue of Tully being “a good guy” and asks if he thought Tully failing a cocaine test was a sign that he didn’t have good character. - Herd says “I don’t know. You hear stories about people from everywhere.” - Conrad says he has to ask about Robocop. - Jim Herd groans while Conrad is asking the question and says: “He might have looked good on Television but he didn’t do much good for our outfit.” Herd says the guy in the Robocop outfit was a really nice guy, but the whole thing wasn’t his idea. - Herd says the whole Robocop idea came out of Turner corporate and there were a lot of ideas like that. Herd says the longer he was in WCW, the more guys started to come out of Turner Broadcasting who had no idea about Pro Wrestling but started trying to give him ideas of how to promote different things within Turner on WCW TV. - Conrad asks if that was frustrating. - Herd says it was, that Turner Broadcasting would do things like expect him to have Robocop or the cast of Leave it to Beaver on WCW TV, but when he needed their help “it was like an unwritten rule...we don’t want anything to do with wrestling.” - Conrad says that Eric Bischoff has complained that the Turner organization got “creative” with their accounting and frequently assigned their corporate losses to WCW, while at the same time diverting WCW’s advertising revenue to Turner Television...which gave an inaccurate picture of how much money WCW actually made or lost. Conrad says that a good example of that is that when he researched Jim Herd’s tenure in WCW, he discovered that it was reported that WCW lost six million dollars in 1991...but all their Pay Per View revenue ended up being credited to Turner Home Entertainment, not WCW. - Herd says he doesn’t know anything about that because those kinds of accounting decisions were made above his head. - Jim Herd says that if you go back and look at the overall Turner Sports Package, it always sold better when Pro Wrestling was included than it would if the other sports were included but not Pro Wrestling. Herd says that if you look at the advertising revenue generated when he was in charge of WCW, “the numbers don’t lie.” - Jim Herd says the other thing that doesn’t lie is the television ratings that WCW drew while he was in charge. Although they couldn’t draw big house show numbers, their ratings for The Clash of Champions on TBS were always very good. - Herd says one of the biggest problems WCW had while he was in charge is that they never had a Hulk Hogan. Herd says Hogan was not a good wrestler, but he was a household name and he was an attraction and people would always come out to see him in person...but WCW never had a talent like that who everybody was desperate to see live and in person. - Conrad asks why Jack Petrik picked Jim Herd to run WCW? - Herd says it was because of his experience working with Sam Muchnick and that he knew more about Pro Wrestling than Jack Petrik did, and Petrik knew it. - Conrad says a lot of people think Jim Herd was just some Executive with Pizza Hut who got put in charge of WCW, and that people don’t realize that Herd has a background in TV production and Pro Wrestling. - Herd says he also worked in TV production with the St. Louis Blues and produced over 300 NHL Hockey games as well. Herd says it’s harder to produce live sports than it is Pro Wrestling, because there is no script and you don’t know what is going to happen. - Conrad asks if Jim Herd had the chance to do it all again, would he still go to work for WCW? - Jim Herd says “Oh yes. I’d jump at it.” - Conrad asks if he has one regret about running WCW? - Jim Herd says he wishes he could have worked directly with Ted Turner instead of having to go through Jack Petrik, and that his working relationship with Jack Petrik caused a lot of the problems he had in WCW...but “hindsight is always 20/20.” - Herd says another problem he had in WCW is that he was kind of set up to fail, right from the start. Herd says that when he took over in 1989, Jim Crockett was still in charge of the Pro Wrestling operations in WCW and obviously didn’t want any interference from Jim Herd...but that is what Jim Herd was hired to do. As a result, Crockett didn’t like Herd and probably the talent that were loyal to Crockett didn’t like him either, but Herd had been specifically hired to oversee WCW and Jim Crockett, so he was put on a “collision course” right off the bat. - Conrad asks if Jim Herd still follows Professional Wrestling. - Herd says no, he doesn’t follow it unless he happens to see it on TV or something about it in the newspaper. - Conrad asks if Jim Herd still has any friends from the Pro Wrestling business. - Herd says no, he never really made any lasting friendships in the Pro Wrestling business except for Sam Muchnick, and Muchnick taught him that you can’t really be friends with the talent. - Herd says even he had made any friends they’d probably all be dead by now, just like he will be within the next couple of years, because he’s 88 years old. - Herd says he brought a bunch of memorabilia to give to Conrad, because he has nobody else to give it to, and he’ll be dead soon. - Conrad says he hopes that is not the case. - Conrad asks what Jim Herd thought of Professional Wrestling making it back onto Network Television after all these years, with Smackdown being on Fox. - Herd says he can’t believe it, but he is happy for WWE. Herd says it shows how brilliant Vince McMahon is. Herd says he remembers when Vince got the WWF on Network TV back in the 80’s and how that really changed the game. Herd says that Vince McMahon had vision and really got things done. Herd says he can’t find any fault with anything “Vince Junior” ever did. - Conrad asks if Jim Herd ever actually met or spoke with Vince McMahon Jr? - Jim Herd says he never met him and never spoke with him, but his father was a good friend at the time. - Conrad asks if his opinion of Ric Flair has changed? - Jim Herd says it is a non-starter now, they have no relationship but he was happy to see him on TV the other day, looking well. - Conrad says that interview was probably with Steve Austin. Conrad says coincidentally, Steve Austin got his first National Televison exposure from Jim Herd, as did Mark Calloway who went on to become the Undertaker, and Mick Foley who went on to become Mankind. Conrad says that maybe Jim Herd doesn’t get enough credit for the talent that came into WCW when he was in charge. - Jim Herd says he wishes Ric Flair well, and is glad that Ric is still alive and that he’s still alive too. - Conrad asks if Jim Herd saw the recent documentary about Michael Jordan. - Herd says he has not seen it. - Conrad says that at the end of the documentary, Michael Jordan sits down and watches videos of what his peers and other people have said about him over the years. - Conrad asks if Jim Herd would be interested in doing a project where he sat down with Conrad, and Conrad showed him interviews with all the things various people have said about Jim Herd over the years, and give Herd a chance to respond. - Jim Herd bursts out laughing and says: “Not really! I don’t want to see that! I know what they’re going to say. Whatever they think...they think. All that rolls off me like water off a duck’s back. I couldn’t care less. No thanks! I don’t need it!” Herd seems to find this idea quite funny and is still laughing about it as Conrad wraps up the interview. - Conrad thanks Jim Herd for giving the interview and the two of them are both laughing now, as the interview concludes. ~End of Interview~

Yes indeed. When Conrad asks Herd about Robocop, Herd literally groans.

Yeah, I had my doubts about that story. I know Vader wasn't as big in 1991 as he would go on to be, and I don't doubt both Steiners could easily lift him up, but I can't imagine them being strong enough to hold him in place long enough to tape him to the wall, nor can I imagine there being enough tape to hold him up.

Ad Free Shows Exclusive “Conversations with Conrad” With former WCW Executive Vice President Jim Herd November 10, 2020 Preamble from The Thread Killer: Shortly after this interview was released last November, Conrad released one of his regular “Ask Conrad Anything” podcasts on Ad Free Shows. One of the questions for Conrad was regarding this interview with Jim Herd. Conrad says that going into this interview, he was fully armed with detailed notes which had been thoroughly researched for him. Conrad claims he had no intention of being overly confrontational, but he did intend to ask some rather pointed questions about some of the more controversial decisions that Jim Herd made during the years he was Executive Vice President of WCW, from 1989 to 1992. Conrad says that the day of the interview was the first time he had actually met Jim Herd face to face, and he was taken aback by Herd’s appearance. Conrad says that going into this interview he was aware Jim Herd was 88 years old, but that fact had not fully registered with him until he saw Herd in person. Conrad admits that he had not really mentally reconciled the fact that he wouldn’t be meeting the bold and blustery Jim Herd that was seen on WCW Television in the early 90’s. The Jim Herd that Conrad met on this day was a stooped, frail and somewhat feeble old man, and Conrad admits that he felt the need to change the tone of the interview on the fly, because he would not have felt comfortable being confrontational or combative in any way with the man he met that day. Having said that, as you will read...Jim Herd is still in full possession of his mental faculties and has a good memory. Conrad also admits that the interview probably would have gone longer, but Conrad could tell Herd was getting tired so he omitted a couple of questions that he had intended to ask. Conrad said the other obvious issue that hung over the idea of Conrad Thompson interviewing Jim Herd, was the historically contentious relationship between Jim Herd and Ric Flair. Conrad claimed he wanted Jim Herd to be totally honest about his feelings regarding Ric Flair, so prior to the interview Conrad chose not to inform Herd that not only was Conrad personal friends with Ric Flair, but Ric Flair was actually Conrad’s Father-In-Law. Conrad says that immediately after the interview, Conrad did disclose his relationship with Ric Flair, and Jim Herd did not seem to have a problem with it. Conrad says that Jim Herd seemed to really enjoy the interview at that if Herd’s health is permitting, Conrad may work with him again in the future. During this interview, Jim Herd makes a few statements which are debatable at best, and in a few cases they are probably provably false. He also shares a couple of opinions which are pretty laughable, but I suppose that is the point of recapping an interview like this. So without any further introduction, I will do my best to recap what he said, and let you decide for yourself... * * * * * - Conrad welcomes us to the very first episode of “Conversations with Conrad” and thanks Jim Herd for joining him to be his first guest. - Jim Herd thanks Conrad for inviting him. - Conrad says that if he is not mistaken, this is the first interview that Jim Herd has given in over 20 years? - Jim Herd says it has been at least 20 years since he has given an interview, and it has probably been longer than that. - Herd says that he has been involved with Professional Wrestling since 1962. Herd says that in 1962 he worked with Vincent J. McMahon, also known as Vince McMahon Sr. Herd says he used to promote shows for Vince McMahon Sr. in the old Blue Moon Arena in South Philadelphia which was known as “The Jungle.” Herd says remembers that Vince McMahon used to carry around a roll of quarters, and the roll would break and quarters would end up flying everywhere. Herd says Vincent J. McMahon had great success as a promoter...but obviously his son took it much further. - Herd says he is happy to talk about anything regarding his Pro Wrestling career, the early years or, if Conrad just wants to focus on his time working with Ted Turner, that is fine with him too. - Conrad says that before they talk about Ted Turner, the NWA and WCW they should probably talk about “Wrestling at the Chase.” - Herd says that he was the Station Manager for KPLR TV in St. Louis, and that his station was responsible for syndicating the TV show “Wrestling at the Chase” which was filmed in the ballroom of the Chase Hotel, and was promoted by Sam Muchnick who was not only the promoter of the NWA’s St. Louis territory, he was also the President of the NWA. - Jim Herd says he still remembers some of the great Pro Wrestling matches that took place in St. Louis featuring names like Gene Kiniski, Pat O’Connor, Lou Thesz and Wilbur Synder. Herd says it’s a shame nobody remembers Wilbur Synder, who he remembers being brought into St. Louis after playing Pro Football in Canada. Herd says Wilbur Synder was great but nobody ever talks about him. - Herd says that the problem is that he is so old, that all the names he remembers and all the people he knew are all dead. - Conrad says that he thinks there is a lot of misinformation about Jim Herd out there, and asks what year he was born. - Jim Herd says he was born August 13, 1932 and he is 88 years old. - Conrad asks how Jim got involved with Ted Turner. - Herd says he first met Ted Turner while Jim was the General Manager of Channel 11 in St. Louis. Herd says that he and Ted Turner were two of the founding members of an organization called ITV, which was The Independent Television Association. Herd says that this organization was an alliance of all the Independent TV stations in the Southern United States that did not have a network affiliation. - Herd says when he managed Channel 11, “Wrestling at the Chase” was their most popular program and that his station used to get fan mail from all over the place, from fans out of state and everywhere, wanting to talk about how much they loved Professional Wrestling. - Herd says at that time, Ted Turner owned two TV stations, one in Atlanta and one in North Carolina, and Herd sold him “Wrestling at the Chase” in syndication for Turner’s channels. Herd says that as soon as Turner started airing Pro Wrestling, his channels started getting the same kind of overwhelming fan response that Herd’s did. - Herd says that Turner realized right away what a popular property and ratings success Pro Wrestling was, when nobody else took it seriously. Jim Herd that when Ted Turner started his “Superstation” he always intended Pro Wrestling to be one of the foundations of the channel, since he had already seen how successful it was when he owned Channel 17 and ran “Wrestling at the Chase.” - Jim Herd says he remembers that Ted Turner once told him that when he looked at a map of the United States, there were not enough Professional Baseball teams in the South. Turner said Baseball was supposed to be “America’s Pastime” but they had no real representation in the South aside from the Braves who had moved to Atlanta from Boston. Turner bought the team (which was apparently at risk of being moved) and started showing their games on the Superstation, which broadcast them to the entire country and ended up making the team much more popular, and basically the official team of the South. - Herd says he was impressed how Turner eventually built a Sports Package at Turner Network Television that ended up including Baseball, Hockey, Football, Basketball and Pro Wrestling. Herd says that when advertisers would buy time with Turner’s “Sports Package” they wanted their ads included on the Pro Wrestling shows, because the ratings were so high on the Superstation. - Jim Herd says that to run a 30 second ad on any one of the games or events included in the Turner Sports Package would cost $100,000, which would be the equivalent of $500,000 today. Herd concedes that he is 88 years old and his memory might be faulty, but that is what he remembers. - Herd says the thing about Ted Turner is that he was very competitive and “he never wanted just one of anything. He wanted it all.” - Herd says that thanks to the high advertising rates for the Turner Sports Package, WCW made “tons of money” while he was in charge. - Herd says the main area where he failed when he was running WCW was in the fact that although TV ratings and ad revenues were high, they could never draw big houses or duplicate the WWF’s success when it came to touring and house shows. - Herd says eventually they decided to stop running many house shows, because they couldn’t get into many of the best venues, as Vince McMahon had them locked up...and even if they could get in, they couldn’t draw any crowds. - Conrad says that maybe they should go back a bit and discuss before Jim Herd came to work for Ted Turner. Conrad asks if it’s true that after he worked for Channel 11 in St. Louis, did Jim work for Pizza Hut, prior to being hired by Ted Turner? - Herd says that he did work for Pizza Hut and was a regional manager for the Pizza Hut restaurants in Missouri and southern Illinois, he was responsible for around 67 locations in total. - Herd says that when he came on with Pizza Hut, they were in competition with a chain called Pantera’s Pizza. (Not to be confused with the band Pantera.) Herd says Pantera was doing much better business than Pizza Hut was, so as soon as he took over, he decided to do some market research. Herd discovered that customers didn’t like Pizza Hut compared to Pantera’s because Pantera’s had more cheese on their pizza, so Herd went back to the owner and convinced him to increase the amount of cheese he put on the pizzas. Herd claims the owner, a man named George Middleton didn’t want to do that because it would cost more money, but Herd convinced him. Herd claims as a result, Pizza Hut went from making six million a year to thirty-six million a year. - Conrad says that in 1988, Ted Turner purchased the NWA from Jim Crockett, and one of the first things Ted Turner did was put a man named Jack Petrik in charge of the NWA. Petrik was named President of WCW, and one of the first things Petrik did was hire Jim Herd to be the Executive Vice President. - Jim Herd says that Jack Petrik was an old friend and colleague who also ran a TV Station in St. Louis, Channel 30. Herd says that along with himself and Ted Turner, Petrik was also a member of the aforementioned Independent Television Association. This is how Ted Turner knew Jack Petrik, and why Turner hired Petrik to run WCW once he purchased it. Jack Petrik had no experience with Professional Wrestling, but he knew Jim Herd had promoted shows for Vincent J. McMahon and had worked with Sam Muchnick syndicating Wrestling at the Chase, so Petrik reached out to Herd and offered him the job of Executive Vice President. Herd says the plan was that Petrik would handle the financial and business end, and Jim Herd would oversee the actual Professional Wrestling operations. - Conrad asks why Herd was hired in 1988 but didn’t start with 1989? - Jim Herd says that he waited until his pension plan with Pizza Hut was vested, and then he made the move to WCW in January 1989. - Conrad asked about the controversy with Dusty Rhodes around this time? - Jim Herd says that as soon as Ted Turner took ownership of the NWA, his first rule was that he wanted a reduction in gratuitous violence and especially blood...he did not want blood on his shows. Jack Petrik had made this clear to Dusty Rhodes, who was in charge of booking WCW at that time. For some reason, Dusty Rhodes went against that edict and ran an angle on Television where he took a spike in the eye from The Road Warriors. As a result, Dusty was fired from his management position with the NWA and put on a performer’s contract. Dusty Rhodes was not happy with this situation, so he resigned. - Herd says that entire situation with Dusty Rhodes was already happening at the time he was hired and that he did not have anything to do with Dusty being demoted, that situation was handled by Jack Petrik under the orders of Ted Turner. - Herd says that Jim Crockett was then selected to be the booker for the NWA, but that pretty much right from the start nobody really liked Jim Crockett’s style of booking. Herd claims that Ted Turner himself said that there were too many “run ins” so he instructed Jim Herd to deal with Jim Crockett. - Herd says that the relationship with Jim Crockett was awkward from the beginning, because Crockett was used to running things himself, and he did not like to take orders from anybody else. - Herd claims that it was Ted Turner who told him to get more control over Jim Crockett, so Herd told Crockett he was no longer allowed to book anything without running it by Herd first. Herd says Crockett “took great umbrage” with that fact, and that their relationship deteriorated very quickly as a result. - Herd claims that he liked Jim Crockett personally, and that he was an honest man...but his remaining in charge of the NWA while Ted Turner owned the company was never going to work, so Jim Crockett came to an agreement with Turner to purchase his remaining ownership stake in the NWA. - Herd says that David Crockett stayed on, after Jim left and that Herd was always happy with David Crockett and he was a nice guy. - Conrad asks if there is any truth to the story that as soon as Jim Herd came to work for Ted Turner, he did the same thing that he had done with Pizza Hut...namely he did market research and commissioned a man named Jeff Carr to write a report on the state of the NWA? - Jim Herd confirms that a report was commissioned by a man named Jeff Carr that ended up being 42 pages long, and that a Herd did implement a number of the recommendations made in Carr’s report. Specifically, the NWA/WCW Television programs needed to rely less on interviews and more on matches, and most significantly that Ted Turner’s WCW should move out of the “Studio Wrestling” format and tape their TV in arenas. - Herd says that at the same time of the Carr Report, Bill Watts was also hired as a consultant and he provided Jim Herd with a lot of feedback regarding making changes to the NWA/WCW product. - Herd says that lots of people had ideas about making changes to WCW, but the main person driving changes to the product was Ted Turner. Herd claims that Turner wanted him to focus on two primary areas, reducing the amount of violence associated with the product, especially bleeding. Secondly, Turner wanted Herd to focus on making WCW a revenue generating product. - Conrad asks Jim Herd if he had anything to do with the changes made to the look of the actual product that happened around this time. - Jim Herd says that yes, he was instrumental in moving the TV Tapings into arenas but also adding the improved lighting, music, the entrance ramp and especially the pyrotechnics. - Conrad says that if he is not mistaken, WCW actually introduced the idea of using pyrotechnics before the WWF did. - Jim Herd confirms this, and says that the idea behind using more lights and pyro was to make the Pro Wrestlers on the show seem like a bigger deal. Herd says he may have been first, but Vince McMahon did it better in the long run. - Conrad asks about JJ Dillon. - Jim Herd says JJ Dillon was Dusty’s assistant booker and as soon as Dusty Rhodes fell out of favor in WCW and left for the WWF, JJ was not too far behind him. Jim Herd says that JJ Dillon was important to the WCW product and deserved credit for his contributions...but Herd’s philosophy has always been that it is better to get contributions from a group of people rather than relying on the creative input of just one or two people. Herd says he much preferred creative work to be done by committee. - Conrad asks what Jim Herd’s plan was for the booking was after the departure of Dusty Rhodes and JJ Dillon? - Herd says the first person he hired was George Scott. George Scott was the booker for the WWF from 1983-1986, during the birth of “Hulkamania” and the first couple of Wrestlemania events. Herd says he hired George Scott partially due to his history working for Vince McMahon, but Herd says that honestly the main reason he hired Scott was because of his contacts with current and former WWF talent. - Herd admits that his main goal was to take advantage of Scott’s relationships outside WCW and bring some top recognizable names into WCW. Herd says he wasn’t interested in what George Scott knew, he was interested in who he knew. Herd says: “Sure, George Scott can be the booker...as long as I get Ricky Steamboat.” - Herd says his decision to hire George Scott paid off pretty much right away, when Scott was able to put Herd in touch with Ricky Steamboat. Herd puts Ricky Steamboat over huge as one of the best wrestlers he has ever seen. Herd says that he and George Scott had hoped to recreate the magic of the Ric Flair/Ricky Steamboat rivalry from years before in Jim Crockett Promotions, but this time on a national scale. - Conrad says that Jim Herd probably doesn’t get enough credit for bringing in Ricky Steamboat and helping set up the famous “Flair/Steamboat Trilogy” in 1989 which are still considered to this day to be the greatest Pro Wrestling matches of all time. - Conrad says that he has heard rumors that in the aforementioned Jeff Carr report, one of the suggestions that was made was that WCW focus less on Ric Flair. Conrad asks if this was the reason tensions started to build between Jim Herd and Ric Flair, starting in the late winter/early spring of 1989? - Jim Herd says that there were a lot of problems with Ric Flair, right from the start. Herd says that Ric Flair was resistant to Ted Turner’s no bleeding policy. - Herd says that just recently, he had seen an interview with Ric Flair, where he was being interviewed by “some bald headed guy.” Herd says he was surprised at how great Flair looked, and that Flair must have had plastic surgery and had part of his ass grafted onto his forehead, because Herd assumed he would look terrible by now due to all the scarring from cutting himself during the matches so often. - Herd says the main problem with Ric Flair was his behavior outside of the ring. Herd says Ted Turner was worried that Ric Flair’s lifestyle would reflect badly on WCW and the Turner organization, and that Turner wanted Jim Herd to get Ric Flair under control. - Jim Herd implies that a lot of the time he was just speaking for Ted Turner or trying to implement Turner’s policies, but that Herd was the one “taking the lumps” from the talent. Herd says it was his job to keep WCW running smoothly but at the same time Turner wanted it “rain dollars.” - Conrad asks about the rivalry between Ted Turner and WCW and Vince McMahon and the WWF that really started to heat up around this time. Conrad asks if it is true that Ted Turner decided to counter-program Wrestlemania V with WrestleWar? - Jim Herd confirms this. Herd says Turner was quite anxious to go to war with the WWF, and that he had the contacts in the PPV business to get away with running a major show on the same day as Wrestlemania, but there were scheduling problems in WCW so it couldn’t happen, and WrestleWar ended up airing in May. - Herd says it was Ted Turner’s plan to try and freeze Vince and the WWF out of PPV, much in the same way Vince had done it to Jim Crockett Promotions. Herd says that he would have gone along with the plan but he thought it was a very bad idea. Herd says that instead of the PPV, they ended up putting on a Clash of the Champions show at the New Orleans Superdome. - Conrad asks if the rumor was true that the bad rating and attendance for that Clash of the Champions was the reason George Scott was fired? - Jim Herd confirms this is true, that for some inexplicable reason George Scott did not promote the Clash of Champions on WCW TV and the show was barely advertised, so very few people attended the show or watched it on TV. - Conrad asks if it is true that George Scott’s reason for this was because he thought promoting a show on television would hurt the house show business? - Jim Herd confirms that this is the case, and says the whole thing was “a major disappointment.” - Conrad asks how long George Scott lasted in WCW, is it true it was only 11 weeks? - Jim Herd says he can’t remember the exact amount of time but “his time there was short...let’s put it that way.” - Conrad asks if this was around the same time Vince McMahon hired Tony Schiavone? Conrad says Tony Schiavone felt like he was being demoted around this time. - Jim Herd says “he was!” Herd says that Tony Schiavone was very upset that Jim Herd had made the decision to give Jim Ross a new contract and make him the main announcer and basically the voice of WCW. Jim Herd puts Jim Ross over huge, and says that Ross could take any match and make it great with his commentary, and Tony Schiavone just couldn’t do that. - Herd says he liked Schiavone personally, but that as far as Herd was concerned Tony’s best role would be to do interviews and be a backup announcer. Herd says Schiavone got his “nose out of joint” and couldn’t accept that so he took a job for more money working with the WWF, and Herd totally understands that, but he doesn’t regret his decision to make Jim Ross the top play-by-play announcer in WCW. - Jim Herd says that he thinks Vince McMahon didn’t even want to hire Tony Schiavone, and that he did it just to spite Herd. - Conrad reiterates that the quality of the actual in ring product in WCW improved significantly after Jim Herd took over in 1989, and that Conrad thinks Herd doesn’t get enough credit for that. - Jim Herd says that the quality of the actual wrestling was very important to him. - Herd says that around this time, he decided that WCW needed to start creating their own stars and he wanted to find the best athletes. Herd says he went and met with the Atlanta Falcons during their training camp and asked the coaching staff for a favor. Herd says he gave his business card to the Falcons coaching staff, and told them that if anybody ended up getting cut from the team but was an impressive athlete, to have the player give Jim Herd a call and he would arrange a tryout with WCW to see if they could learn to become a Professional Wrestler. - Herd says that the plan worked and he got a number of great prospects referred from the Falcons. Herd laughs and says: “but then I made a mistake.” Herd says that when the potential wrestlers came for their tryouts, he put them in the ring with the Steiner Brothers, and by the time the Steiners were done, the football players all quit. Herd says that he found it very funny at the time...but the football players probably didn’t think it was. - Conrad says that it is funny that Jim Herd mentioned the Steiner Brothers, because that is another thing Herd probably doesn’t get enough credit for. Conrad says that the Steiners were on the roster but really didn’t get heavily pushed in WCW until Jim Herd took over, but Herd made them superstars. - Jim Herd confirms that he loved the Steiner Brothers and puts them over big time. - Jim Herd says to Conrad: “I don’t know if you remember him...there was this guy, his last name was White. He was a big guy, I think he played right guard for the Denver Broncos. He had this big helmet he used to put on, and he used to scare the hell out of the Japanese fans.” - Conrad: “Big Van Vader?” - Herd: “Yep. That’s him.” - Jim Herd says that when Vader came into WCW he didn’t like the Steiner brothers and got into arguments with them. Herd says one of their arguments was so bad that one day, Herd got called down from the offices to deal with the problem. Herd says that when he got to the Locker Room, both Steiners had picked Vader up and literally taped him to the wall with athletic tape. That’s how strong they were, they were able to take a guy that weighed over 300 pounds, pick him up, subdue him and tape him to the wall. Herd laughs at this story and says: “they were funny guys.” - Conrad asks Jim Herd about bringing in Terry Funk to work with Ric Flair after his series with Ricky Steamboat. - Jim Herd says that he paid Terry Funk more money than he had ever made in his career. Herd says he knew the Funk family quite well from his days in St. Louis, since Terry wrestled there and so did his brother Dory when he was the NWA World Champion, and he also knew their father who was one of the toughest men he ever met. - Conrad asks if it is true that after the Great American Bash PPV in 1989 that Jim Herd and Ric Flair got into a major disagreement? Conrad says that the story that had been reported was that Ric was fighting outside the ring and went outside the area covered by the TV lights. Jim Herd allegedly said something backstage to the effect that Flair should know better than that, and Eddie Gilbert was right there. Conrad says the story is that Eddie went and told Flair what Herd said about him, and there was a major blowup between the two men as a result. - Jim Herd confirms that when Ric Flair heard what had been said about him, he became very angry and attempted to hand in his notice. Herd says he took Flair out for lunch and did his best to smooth the situation over. In an effort to reconcile with Flair, Herd offered him the booking job that was now vacant due to the departure of George Scott. - Herd says that when Flair was made the main booker, it was as the head of a new booking committee. Herd says that since Flair was booking for the first time, he wanted to make sure he got a lot of support, plus as mentioned earlier, Jim Herd is a proponent of booking by committee, rather than having just one person making all the creative decisions. - Herd says that the main problem with Ric Flair as a booker is that “he never wanted to lose.” Herd says that Ric Flair’s refusal to lose matches was the reason he didn’t last very long as the head of the WCW Booking Committee. - Conrad asks about the Booking Committee. - Jim Herd says that if one person is booking, the product will take on a “sameness” and that having one person coming up with all the ideas “never works.” Herd says that you need “a multitude of ideas from lots of different people.” - Jim Herd says that the booking committee consisted of Flair initially, plus Jim Cornette and also Jim Ross. Herd was going to continue naming people who were on the booking committee, but he gets sidetracked and starts talking about how great Jim Ross was again. Herd reiterates that Jim Ross was the not only the best play-by-play man in Pro Wrestling, but he was also very creative and came up with some great ideas when he was on the Booking Committee. - Herd claims that another reason Tony Schiavone left WCW is because Jim Ross was named to the Booking Committee but Schiavone was not, and that upset Tony greatly and “got his nose out of joint.” - Conrad says one of the first decisions the Booking Committee came up with was the angle where Terry Funk put a plastic bag over Ric Flair’s head. - Jim Herd says that angle caused a lot of trouble for him, and that he ended up getting called into a meeting with Ted Turner which was very unpleasant. Herd says he was “called on the carpet” and reminded that one of the first things that Turner told him was to tone down the violence, but Jim Herd had “digressed” from that plan for the first time, and Ted Turner was not happy. - Conrad points out that the resulting Ric Flair/Terry Funk match ended up being one of the most watched Pro Wrestling matches in American TV history...but for some reason the rest of the Turner organization refused to support WCW. - Jim Herd confirms this, and says that CNN covered Wrestlemania that year, but they wouldn’t mention anything about WCW. Herd says that for whatever reason, the entire Turner organization seemed to think that WCW was “beneath them” and it was very frustrating. - Herd says that he came up with the idea of “WNN” the Wrestling News Network hosted by Gordon Solie, but CNN did not like the idea and “raised hell” so WCW had to end up changing the segment into “Joe Pedicino Knows.” - Conrad says that around this time, Ted Turner purchased the Turner Classic Movies library, and that the story has always been that Jim Herd had given the Booking Committee instructions to create new characters which coincided with the characters in the movies. Conrad says that this alleged decision by Jim Herd has been the source of amusement to Pro Wrestling fans for years, and asks Jim Herd if the story is true? Specifically, Conrad asks if The Ding Dongs, and The Hunchback and the One-Legged Pirate Long John Silver were created by Jim Herd in order to tie-in with Turner Classic Movies? - Jim Herd laughs at this question. Herd says that it is true that he wanted to tie-in some Pro Wrestling characters with Turner’s Classic Movie library, and that the Booking Committee did “brainstorm” some ideas about how to do that...but Herd claims the stories have been greatly exaggerated. - Herd says that he knows that for years, people have claimed that he wanted to change Ric Flair’s name to “Spartacus” but that is not true. - Herd says that he had come up with an idea called “The Zodiac Man.” This idea would be a wrestler who would be costumed differently every month, depending on the signs of the zodiac. For example, in April/May he would be dressed like a bull, for the sign of The Taurus. Then after his matches, he would throw disks with the Taurus sign out to the fans on his way back to the dressing room, and if the fans caught one of these discs, they could take it to participating fast food restaurants or stores, and redeem the disc for prizes or discounts...as long as they did it during the specific months. - Jim Herd claims that Ric Flair heard about this idea and became convinced that the Booking Committee and Jim Herd wanted Flair to change his gimmick and become The Zodiac Man, but that was not true. - Herd claims that ideas like “The Hunchback” or Spartacus were never seriously considered, and many times they were discussed in booking meetings as a joke...but then somebody would tell somebody else about the joke and it would end up being reported as a being true or being an actual plan, when it was never meant to be taken seriously. - Conrad asks about turning Brad Armstrong into “The Candyman.” - Jim Herd says that he had been trying to get an advertising deal with Hershey’s, and that they had specifically asked him if WCW could work a giant candy bar into their show, and if they could, then Hershey’s would consider becoming a sponsor of WCW. Herd says The Candyman character was created to lead up to the introduction of a giant, 6 feet tall, 4 feet wide Hershey’s Candy Bar at the live shows, which could be split up and given to the audience. Herd claims that the idea fell apart because the venues would not allow a giant Candy Bar into their buildings, because of the potential mess it would make. - Conrad says that the Hershey’s deal might have fallen through, but Jim Herd probably deserves credit for some of the advertisers that he did bring in during his tenure in charge of WCW. Conrad names M&M, Coors and “Roos” as examples. - Herd says WCW had been losing money ever since Ted Turner purchased the company, but some of these advertising deals help finally generate some revenue. Herd confirms that landing a beer sponsorship had long been the “Holy Grail” of advertising sponsors for a Pro Wrestling company. - Herd talks about a close personal friend of his who was named Chuck Fruit. Herd claims Chuck Fruit worked for Budweiser and was in charge of allocating their advertising contracts. Herd says that even though Chuck was a friend of his, he told Jim Herd that Budweiser would never advertise on a Pro Wrestling TV program or PPV because of the negative associations with the product and that Pro Wrestling fans were perceived as low class and “beneath” the Budweiser brand. (Sidenote: Once I heard the name “Chuck Fruit” I just had to google it and it turns out there really was a high ranking executive named Chuck Fruit who worked at Budweiser and Coca-Cola. The name sounded made up to me...but old Chuck Fruit was real.) - Jim Herd reiterates that Ted Turner really wanted to change the image of WCW as a violent “bloody” product and that Turner was constantly after him to appeal to children and women, not just men. Herd says as hard as he tried, WCW never could increase their female viewers. - Herd says one of the main reasons he agreed with heavily promoting Sting is because being so colorful, he appealed to kids and he was also good looking, which would appeal to women. - Conrad asks about The Great Muta. - Jim Herd says The Great Muta was a great wrestler but he wasn’t well liked by the other wrestlers in the Locker Room. - Conrad asks if Gary Hart had anything to do with why The Great Muta didn’t do better in WCW (as has been suggested by both Jim Ross and Jim Cornette) but Jim Herd says he really doesn’t know. Herd pointed out that as the Executive Vice President, he usually wasn’t privy to a lot of the Locker Room gossip. - Conrad asks about Brian Pillman. - Jim Herd says Brian Pillman was a great wrestler and was exactly the kind of athlete Herd wanted to feature in WCW, young, good looking, athletic, popular and he had exciting matches. Herd says that kind of Pro Wrestler is the type he felt would be WCW’s best chance to make a lot of money. - Conrad asks Jim Herd about his opinion of Eric Bischoff. - Herd says all Eric Bischoff did was use Ted Turner’s money to hire away all of Vince McMahon’s most popular stars, and that Herd tried to do that but Jack Petrik wouldn’t give him the money. - Conrad asks if Jim Herd actually had any conversations with any of the top names in the WWF while he was in charge of WCW. - Herd says that he tried very hard to sign Randy Savage. Herd says that Randy Savage was the exact type of star that he would have loved to build WCW around, he was popular with kids, he was a household name and he would have really helped draw new advertisers. - Conrad asks if Jim Herd actually had serious discussions with Randy Savage about jumping to WCW? - Herd says that he and Jack Petrik did have a very serious meeting with Randy Savage about coming to WCW, and they were very close to making a deal. Herd says the problem is that Jack Petrik would not go any higher than $500,000 a year for Savage, and Savage wanted more than that. Herd says that honestly, he would have paid Randy Savage whatever he wanted to sign with WCW because that would have been “revolutionary” for WCW but Jack Petrik wouldn’t budge on the money so the deal never got made. - Conrad goes back to talking about Sting and asks about Jim Herd’s feelings about him. - Jim Herd agrees that Sting was great, but that his injury in 1990 derailed the plans the Booking Committee had to put Sting on top over Ric Flair. - Conrad asks if this is when WCW made the decision to pivot to putting the World Championship on Lex Luger. - Jim Herd confirms that is exactly what happened. Herd says that he wanted Lex Luger to beat Ric Flair but Flair refused “and that was pretty much the end of our relationship, to tell you the truth.” - Herd says that Flair was making top money in WCW and that WCW had always done whatever Ric Flair wanted to do. Herd says he thought that he and Ric Flair had a good relationship, but that Flair always thought Jim Herd and WCW were trying to “diminish” him. - Jim Herd asks Conrad if he knows much about Ric Flair. Conrad doesn’t comment, so Herd takes a moment and puts Flair over huge. Herd says that in his opinion, Ric Flair was probably in the best physical condition of just about anybody in WCW, and he could literally “wear out a Stairmaster until it started to smoke.” Herd says he personally witnessed Ric Flair doing cardio in the gym and he was amazed at how long and hard Flair worked out, and he did it every day. Herd says the only other athletes in WCW who came even close to Ric Flair’s physical conditioning would be the Steiner Brothers. Herd says he knows he has talked about the Steiner Brothers a lot, but he admits they were his favorites. Herd says Ric Flair could wrestle 45 minutes every night, with anybody...and Herd appreciated that Flair worked that hard. - Herd admits that by this point, his relationship with Ric Flair was fractured beyond repair but Herd didn’t totally realize it. Herd says that Flair can be very charming and personable, so you can be in a meeting with him that goes really well, and not realize that he hates you. - Herd says that Vince McMahon obviously heard that Ric Flair was unhappy in WCW and used that as a chance to “swoop in and steal him...and he did.” - Conrad asks if this was around the time that Ole Anderson started booking? - Jim Herd says hiring Ole Anderson was big mistake on his part. Herd says “Ole was just mean. He was mean in the ring but he was even meaner outside the ring.” Herd says his memories of Ole are that he was always angry and always in a battle with somebody. - Conrad asks if Jim Herd remembers The Black Scorpion? - Herd says he does remember and that was also a big mistake. Herd admits that Ole didn’t even know who the Black Scorpion was supposed to be when he came up with the idea. Herd agrees that the job was offered to Al Perez but Perez ended up turning it down because he thought it would hurt his career. Herd says that whole Black Scorpion storyline ended up being “a big hodge podge.” - Conrad asks if this was around the time that Dusty Rhodes reached about about returning to WCW? - Herd agrees that it was, and says that Dusty was just supposed to be brought back as an in-ring talent. - Herd says that he still remembers that a sticking point in dealing with Dusty was that his son Dustin be made part of the deal, and that Dusty was very insistent that Dustin get a job and be featured heavily once Dusty returned to WCW. Herd says that he really liked Dustin, he was a “nice kid” but Herd was initially unsure about bring Dustin in because Herd didn’t know if he would be any good. Herd says that when Dusty came back in, he kept “shoving” Dustin on Herd and eventually Herd got annoyed and “shoved back.” - Conrad asks about Sid Vicious. - Jim Herd says that Sid had the greatest physique that he had ever seen. Herd says he remembers Sid “vividly” because negotiating with him was a nightmare. Herd claims Sid would agree to terms for a new contract and then change his mind and demand something else. - Conrad asks Jim Herd if the urban legend is true that Sid demanded time off in the summer so he could play softball, and Herd laughs and agrees it is true. - Herd says you could never satisfy Sid, and talks about the day their contract negotiations broke down for good. Herd claims that Sid was in his office and demanded the summers off and more money, and told Jim Herd that if Herd didn’t meet his demands he would quit and go and work for Vince McMahon, but before he left Sid said he was going to throw Jim Herd out the 12th floor office window. Herd claims he told Sid that he had a loaded gun in his briefcase and that if Sid took one step toward him, Herd was going to “blow his head off.” Herd claims Sid turned around and walked out of the office and that was the last time he ever saw Sid. - Conrad asks if that kind of thing ever happened when Herd was running Pizza Hut, and Herd laughs and said no...that never did. - Jim Herd says he doesn’t know what happened to Sid, because he knows so many of the Pro Wrestlers he worked with over the years have since passed away. Herd asks Conrad if Sid is still alive. Conrad says he still is, and Herd says he is glad to hear it because he doesn’t like to think he has been sitting there talking poorly about somebody who has since died. - Conrad says now would be as good a time as any to get into Ric Flair’s departure from WCW and the transition to Lex Luger as champion. We are now exactly halfway through this interview, so I am going to take a break here and pick it up later with Part Two... ~End of Part One~

Wasn't Zandig also involved with Big Japan a fair bit during their first few years? IIRC, he showed up a few times on a "Best of Big Japan" comp VHS tape I used to have ages ago. Or maybe I'm confusing him with somebody else.

Yeah, I remember that as well. I'm 99% sure he claimed it was a Ray Stevens spot originally...which isn't surprising when you consider how much Flair apparently looked up to Ray Stevens (for his outside of the ring antics too, I guess.) I remember reading or hearing somewhere once, that Ray Stevens was one of the originators of the "big bumping" heel shtick but I have no proof of that. Sadly, I guess there is no way to find out if he was anywhere near as good as a lot of his peers say he was, since there is so little footage of him in his prime.

The Kelly Twins wrestled a lot on the Canadian independent scene for infamous promoter/wrestler Dave "Wildman" McKigney. They gained a measure of "fame" in Canada in the 80's when they were featured in a couple of TV commercials. Sadly, Pat Kelly was killed along with Dave McKigney in the car accident that took the life of Adrian Adonis. They were on their way to a show in the wilds of Newfoundland, when a Moose crossed the road. (An actual Moose...not the wrestler from Impact.) The van swerved to avoid hitting the moose and crashed. Mike Kelly was the one driving the van, and he was apparently pretty badly injured. I don't think he ever wrestled after the accident.

That's seven votes for Jim Herd, so I think that is the recap I will tackle next. If memory serves me that interview is pretty damn long, so I may end up tackling it in instalments like I did with the Bischoff Leaves WWE episode. I don't mind recapping anything under an hour in one sitting, but anything over that stops being fun and starts feeling like a chore so it's better to break it up. Stay tuned.

Yeah after the first couple of minutes listening to that, I was all like... But thankfully the show picked up with the Shawn Michaels question, the Pat Patterson question and especially the stuff about Talent Relations. I really laughed at the Pat Patterson/Big Show story. "I thought you met Giant Gonzalez!"

Thank you for the appreciation, everybody. I have time on my hands for now (although that might change at some point) and I have all these podcasts saved, so I figure if people keep enjoying them and it keeps discussions going, I'll keep doing them.

Monday Mailbag with Mike Chioda 01/11/21 Hosted by Conrad Thompson Note from The Thread Killer: I am going to try something different and recap a Q & A. Also, I have never recapped something as I listen to it for the first time, but I am doing that now. That could turn out to be a mistake, because if this episode is boring I’ll have ended up wasting my time. However, Conrad Thompson claimed (and this could be, and probably is nothing more than carny hype) that some of the answers on this podcast are “shocking” and will probably get reported on Pro Wrestling news sites. So I figured...why not try it? If it doesn’t work, I won’t do it again. * * * * * Conrad welcomes everybody to the podcast and wishes everybody a Happy New Year. Conrad says that over the holidays, the Ad Free Shows subscribers have submitted a bunch of great questions for former WWE referee of over 30 years...Mike Chidoa, so let’s get to it. Question: What was a bigger shock to Mike Chioda, Dusty Rhodes coming to the WWF in 1989, Ric Flair coming in 1991, Hulk Hogan going to WCW in 1994, or Hulk Hogan returning in 2002? Mike says Hogan going to WCW shocked him. Hogan says after all the years he had worked with Hulk Hogan it was shocking to him that he would ever leave the WWF. Mike says he is happy that when Hogan returned, he got the opportunity to be the referee for the Hogan/Rock match at Wrestlemania 18. (Sidenote: Mike Chioda has said in a recent episode that match was one of the most memorable of his career, and he even did a “watch along” of the match with AFS subscribers.) Conrad follows up: Knowing that Mike grew up a WWF fan and worked with WWF exclusively, did he think it was a big deal when Dusty came to the WWF in 1989? Mike says that even though he hadn’t been an NWA fan, he understood what a big deal it was when Dusty signed with the WWF. Mike points out that some people might not realize it, but Dusty made an impact when he came into the WWF. Mike says he refereed at countless house shows, and he remembers that sometimes a WWF show might not draw many fans when they ran a show in the South, or in what might be considered “NWA Country.” Mike says as soon as Dusty was on the WWF roster, the attendance on those house shows increased significantly, just because Dusty was on the card and there were fans who were coming out pretty much just to see Dusty Rhodes live. Conrad follows up: What about Ric Flair? Mike says he was shocked that Flair came especially with the World Title, but he thought it was great because Ric Flair was an icon and a great performer. Question: Has Mike tried “Kojack’s BBQ” since he moved to Tampa? Mike says no he hasn’t but he will try it out, because he loves BBQ. (Ugh...I’m starting to regret this decision already and I’m only four minutes into the show.) Conrad follows up: Since Mike has been pretty much everywhere in the world during his 30+ year career, is there one place that stands out for having the best BBQ? Mike says there is a place in Texas that he remembers in Houston, but he forgets the name of the place. Mike says he lived in Texas for 14 years. Conrad follows up: Since he lived in Texas, does Mike like Brisket? Conrad says he knows most Texans love their Brisket. Mike says he does, but says he was surprised when he went to Montreal that they have excellent Brisket as well, except they called it “Smoked Meat.” Mike asks if Conrad has tried it? Conrad says no, he has never been to Montreal, but he would like to. Conrad says that Eric has told him that the Strip Clubs in Montreal are “out of this world.” (Sidenote: Well actually, he’s right about that. I hear. I’ve never been to a Strip Club of course. I mean...Strip Clubs are bad, and you should never, ever go to one. And you should especially never date a stripper, because it might seem like a good idea when you’re drunk...except she’ll probably end up being a coke head, and her jealous ex-boyfriend might attack you, and when you fight back the cops end up being called and then you end up spending the night in jail. I mean...hypothetically of course. I don’t know anybody who actually did that. ) Mike laughs and agrees Eric is correct. Mike says everything about Montreal is great, especially the Smoked Meat at Shwartz’s Deli. Mike says he had been going there for years, and he was introduced to the place by Pat Patterson. Question: Do you have any memories of working in Pittsburgh or Buffalo? The fan asking has lived in both towns and doesn’t think either town gets enough credit as being a “great wrestling town.” Mike says that is true. Mike says both towns were underrated, but both drew sold out houses. Mike says he remembers refereeing some great Rock/Mankind matches at house shows in Pittsburgh, and of course that is where the infamous Hell in a Cell match with Foley and The Undertaker happened. Mike says he will never forget running down to the ring after Foley fell through the cage. He noticed Foley had a big booger hanging out of his nose and he was going to tell him to wipe it, but then he realized it was his tooth that had somehow become lodged up his nose. Mike says he will never forget that night. Question: As a fan...not just as a referee, does Mike have a favorite match of all time? Mike says his favorite match is Rock/Hogan from Wrestlemania 18. He says he doesn’t understand why that match was not the Main Event. Question: Does Mike have a favorite era in Pro Wrestling. Mike says “The Attitude Era” without a doubt. Conrad says that surprises him. Conrad says what made The Attitude Era better than the Hogan Era in the 80’s? Mike says the fact that the content was more for adults, not just kids. Mike also says that the roster was much better in The Attitude Era, there were more stars it wasn’t just Hogan. Mike says he remembers the crowds being better during The Attitude Era. Mike says it felt like you could do whatever you wanted then. Mike says he liked that women were always flashing their boobs at DX and it was a lot of fun. Question: Does Mike have any good Brodie Lee stories, and what was Mike’s experience like working with him? Mike says he has a lot of fond memories of Brodie Lee backstage, he was a great guy. Mike says he loved his look. Mike says that Luke Harper really stood out, especially when you compared him to guys like Randy Orton, with the short hair, and muscles. Mike says Luke Harper had a great look for Pro Wrestling, and as far as he’s concerned, that is what Pro Wrestlers are supposed to look like. Mike says Luke Harper was old school. Mike repeats that Luke Harper was just a really good guy and treated everybody backstage nicely. Mike says he spent a lot of time talking to Brodie when they did European tours, and was so excited to see him again this past August in AEW. Mike says “God Bless Him” and gets a bit choked up at this point. Conrad follows up: Did Mike ever meet Danny Hodge? Mike says that he did meet Danny Hodge, and the thing that stuck out to him right away is that Hodge’s hands were huge. Mike says he saw Danny crush an apple with his hand once backstage, when somebody asked him to. Mike says he tried to crush an apple with one hand later, to see if he could do it and he couldn’t. Mike says at first he thought it was a work...but it wasn’t, Danny Hodge just had amazingly strong hands, even in his later years when Mike met him. Conrad agrees. He says if anybody wants to see him do it, they should check out YouTube. Hodge still hand unreal hand strength as a Senior Citizen, and Conrad says he was a “different level of human being.” Question: Aside from the Screwjob and Jerry Lawler’s heart attack, does Mike have any memories of Montreal? (More Montreal? What the hell?) Mike says he loved working with Dino Bravo and Frenchie Martin. Mike says you wouldn’t believe the crowd reaction Dino Bravo used to get in Montreal. Mike remembers that before Bravo even signed with WWF full time, they would bring him in for their Montreal house shows and he would end up being the most popular guy on the show. Mike says it was a similar situation with Jacques Rougeau, but in reverse. Mike says when Rougeau was “The Mountie” in Montreal, the fans absolutely hated him, which Mike always found odd because he was from Montreal. Conrad follows up: Does Mike remember the ovation Hogan got the night after Wrestlemania 18 in Montreal, when he came out in the “Red and Yellow?” (Sidenote: Not to be a nerd here...but Conrad is confusing his “Hulk Hogan Montreal ovations.” Hogan did come out the night after Wrestlemania 18 in Montreal, and got a massive, sustained ovation...but he was still wearing his NWO gear that night. As big as that ovation was... What Conrad is thinking about is when Hogan appeared on Smackdown in Montreal in 2002, wearing the Red and Yellow. The crowd literally cheered for five minutes straight and wouldn’t let Hogan talk, and Hogan has since said that it was the biggest, loudest crowd reaction he ever got in his career. I watched that on YouTube once and it still gave me goosebumps. And of course, you can’t see it in it’s proper context on the WWE Network, because they edited out his theme music.) Mike says he remembers that ovation, because Hogan was supposed to cut a promo but the crowd literally wouldn’t let him speak they were cheering so loud. Mike says it gave him chills. Conrad follows up: Does Mike remember the reaction Elias got a few years ago when he cut a promo in Seattle, making fun of the their Basketball Team moving to Oklahoma City? Mike says he does remember that, and he was shocked because it was pretty typical “cheap heat” but it was one of the loudest negative reactions he can remember hearing from fans in a long time. Question: Does Mike have any stories about Pat Patterson? Mike says he knew Pat Patterson for 35 years, and they got along great. Mike says that Pat loved the way Mike worked, and he once told Mike “when the referee is not even seen in the ring, you’re doing your job.” Mike says Pat was very complimentary towards him. Mike says Pat used to rib him all the time, and always used to get him with the old joke: “Hey Mike, do you know who was just asking about you?” “No.” “Absolutely nobody.” Mike then tells a story about how one night, he was in a nightclub in Philly, when the bouncer came up to him. Mike says the bouncer was one of the biggest men he had ever seen, and as soon as he saw him, he thought it was the second coming of Andre the Giant. Mike says he remembers how big the bouncer’s hands were, it reminded him of Andre. Mike says he knew Andre, and thought he’d never meet anybody like him again, but now he had. Mike says the bouncer told him that he knew who Mike was, and asked if he would pass his contact information to the WWF because he was interested in becoming a Pro Wrestler. Mike says the bouncer gave him his phone number. Mike says the next time he went to work, he went straight to Pat Patterson and gave him the phone number. Mike says he told Pat that he absolutely had to see this guy, because he looked just like Andre the Giant and that the WWF should take a look at this guy, right away. Mike says Pat told him that he would look into it, but Mike never heard anything more about it after that. Mike says much later on, he was passing the “Gorilla Position” backstage, and they had a monitor on which was showing WCW Monday Nitro. “The Giant” was on the screen, and Mike says that Vince was marvelling at The Giant’s size and that he couldn’t believe WCW had signed him. Pat Patterson was there, and agreed with Vince. Mike says he interrupted Pat and Vince McMahon and said: “Hey Pat...that’s the guy! That’s the bouncer from the nightclub that gave me his phone number, and I gave it to you! I can’t believe you never called that guy.” Mike says things got very quiet, Pat’s eyes bugged out and Vince slowly turned and looked at Pat Patterson and said: “What the fuck, Pat? We could have signed this guy?” Before Pat could reply, Vince turned and asked Mike to excuse them, so Vince and Pat could talk in private. Later that night, Pat Patterson came up to Mike and chewed him out for getting Pat in trouble with Vince McMahon. Mike says he apologized, but he reiterated that he was shocked that Pat never called the guy after Mike had begged him to call him and talked about how big the guy was. Pat replied: “I just thought you had run into Giant Gonzalez!” A couple of years later, Paul Wight finally came to the WWF as “The Big Show” of course. Mike says that the first time he saw The Big Show backstage, Mike just so happened to be standing with Pat Patterson. Mike says The Big Show came right up to him, and shook his hand...but he said sarcastically: “Nice to see you again. Thanks a fucking lot for passing on my phone number.” Mike says he put his hands up in the air and said: “Hey, don’t blame me. I gave your number to this guy right here, he’s the guy you should talk to.” Mike then pointed at Pat Patterson. Mike says Pat got a confused look on his face, looked at Mike and then The Big Show innocently and said: “I have no idea what you’re talking about.” (Sidenote: I have seen a couple of interviews with The Big Show where he said he had reached out to the WWF before he got signed by WCW, but they had no interest. I guess now we know that story is true, and the details. I hope I did this story justice by recapping it, because it was really funny.) Question: While refereeing a match, when both wrestlers are outside the ring and the referee is required to do a ten count...does the referee have to “work” the count to make sure that both guys get back into the ring in time, or is it the responsibility of the wrestlers to listen to the count, and make sure they both get back in before the count of ten? Mike laughs and says: “always.” Mike says you pretty much always have to work the count, and says there have been many occasions when he got as high as counting to eight but the wrestlers were still not in the ring, so he would have to break his own count, roll out of the ring and under his breath he would tell the wrestlers to get back in the ring. Mike says there were also occasions that the wrestlers were too far away from him to hear him if he talked quietly, he would have to yell at them to get back in the ring. It would look to the fans like he was just being a tough referee, but in reality he really was yelling at them because they were spending too much time outside the ring, and he was being told in his earpiece to make them get back in the ring. Mike says that at one point for years, just one wrestler could roll back in the ring to break the count, but then roll right back out. Mike says the WWF changed the rules so that was no longer allowed, and both wrestlers would have to be back in the ring by the count of ten, otherwise it was a countout. Mike says literally 95% of the ten counts you see are worked. Question: What was Shawn Michaels like to work with, prior to his back injury in 1998? Are the rumors of him being hard to work with true? Mike says Shawn was always good with him, but he was extremely particular about his referees. Mike says Shawn was a big fan of what he called the “one...two...not today” spot, which was basically Shawn kicking out right before the three count. Mike says that Shawn really liked doing that spot so it was important to him that he meet with the referee before the match and plan it out in advance. Mike says that Shawn really liked cutting it as close as possible and kicking out at the last microsecond, so Shawn was very particular about the referee being able to handle that spot, otherwise it could wrong. Mike admits that there were a few times that he screwed up spots in the ring during a Shawn Michaels match and that Shawn would yell at him, either in the ring or backstage after the match. Mike says that they always got past conflicts like that, and that Shawn understood accidents happened when you do the same spot over and over, there are bound to be times things get screwed up. Mike says Shawn was a perfectionist and despite the fact that there were many times that Shawn freaked out on him, he still knew Shawn respected him. Mike says that outside the ring, he and Shawn always got along well. Mike says that when he was younger, back during the days of The Rockers, Mike would always try and find out what nightclub or bar The Rockers would be going to after the show, and then he would go there too because it was guaranteed that the place would be packed with good looking girls. Mike says it was not uncommon to walk past The Rockers hotel room and there would be five women in there with them. Mike says he would have a hard time picking up women but The Rockers would have women to spare, so he would knock on their hotel room window begging to be let in. Conrad follows up: Conrad had heard rumors that The Rockers had so many girls trying to come back to their room, that Shawn and Marty started coming up with all sorts of outlandish conditions or tests the girls had to pass, in order to be allowed to come back to the hotel with them. Conrad said the craziest rumor he had heard was that The Rockers would tell some girls that if they wanted to come back to the room with them, they would have to shave their heads bald, to prove that they were serious. Conrad asks if that is true or if it is just an exaggerated Locker Room urban legend. Mike says he personally witnessed The Rockers do just that. Mike says that some girls were so desperate to come back to the room with Shawn and Marty that The Rockers started to make all these outlandish demands to see how far they could push it, and yes...Mike personally witnessed girls willingly shaving their heads just for a chance to come to the hotel room with Shawn and Marty. Conrad is shocked at this revelation and actually yells “WHAT?” Conrad says he had always assumed that was just a myth. Mike said he saw one girl shave half her head, and then The Rockers told her to finish the job, so she went all the way and shaved her entire head. Mike says he couldn’t believe the lengths some girls would go to, just for a chance to go back to the hotel room with The Rockers. Conrad says that they should make it clear...Mike never saw The Rockers do this to a girl who was passed out, only to girls who would do it willingly? Mike says yes...he only ever saw girls do this to themselves willingly and he never witnessed anybody getting their head shaved when they were unable to consent, or against their will. Mike says The Rockers would always book rooms at a “Rodeway Inn” because they had hot tubs, and they would always have a cooler full of beer back at the room after the bar closed. Conrad says that he should clarify that Shawn Michaels is no longer the kind of person that would do that kind of thing and that he had changed. Conrad asks if he noticed a change in Shawn Michaels after his comeback? Mike says not really, but that is only because he and Shawn always had a good relationship to begin with and never really had any problems. Mike says that when The Rockers first came into the WWF, he was usually the referee in all their matches, and he can’t even count how many Rockers matches he worked. Mike says that Conrad might not know it, but Pat Patterson was actually the person in the WWF who saw The Rockers and brought them to Vince’s attention, and really advocated them getting a job. Mike says The Rockers had a bad reputation in the industry before they came to the WWF, but Pat convinced Vince McMahon to hire them. Mike says it is too bad Marty Jannetty went in a bad direction after The Rockers broke up. Conrad says that everybody he always talked to in the industry has always told him that when The Rockers broke up, it was assumed that Marty Jannetty was the better Pro Wrestler and was going to be the breakout star of the team, not Shawn Michaels. Conrad asks if Mike thinks one of The Rockers was better than the other. Mike says they were both great workers, but Marty went in a bad direction. Mike says it’s always inevitable when a Tag Team breaks up, one guy will “take off” and the other will flounder. Shawn did well without Marty, Bret Hart did great without The Anvil, and Jacques Rougeau did great without his brother Raymond. Mike says that he always thought that would happen when The Shield broke up, that Roman or maybe Seth would turn out to be the big star...but they all made it and that is one of the few stories of all the members of a team or stable going on to great individual success. Conrad asks if Mike ever heard the rumor that The Shield was actually CM Punk’s idea and he wanted to bring them up from NXT to be his goons, except with Chris Hero instead of Roman Reigns? Mike says he had never heard that rumor. Question: Mike Chioda was at the infamous “Public Workout” in Boston right before Wrestlemania 14. Does he have any memories of that crazy event? Mike says he does not remember that event. Conrad reminds him that shortly before Wrestlemania 14, the WWF held an outdoor show in the public square in downtown Boston. The whole purpose of the event was to shoot an angle leading into the Shawn Michaels/Stone Cold match. The crowd was very rowdy, and while Shawn Michaels was in the middle of cutting a promo a fan threw a battery and hit him in the head. Shawn stormed out of the ring, and had to be convinced to return because they had to shoot the angle where DX and Mike Tyson tied Stone Cold up in the ropes and kissed him. Mike says he doesn't remember that. Question: Does Mike have any memories of pranks or ribs pulled on him during the Attitude Era? Mike says that DX used to tease him all the time when they were in the ring. Mike says it was “so much fun.” Billy Gunn used to hit him in the nuts (Mike Chioda clearly has a different definition of the word “fun” than I do) and Chyna was always messing up his hair. Mike says DX did whatever they wanted to do, they were always trying to trip him up...but it was “good ribs.” Question: What was it like being in the ring on the Monday Night Raw, the night after Wrestlemania 30? Mike was refereeing a match between Sheamus and Randy Orton, and the fans were not into it, so they started chanting “Mike Chioda!” Mike says he remembers that night very well, “it was awesome” because that was the first time any fans had ever chanted his name, and he loved it. Mike says he really wanted to react to the chants, but he knew he was supposed to appear to be impartial, and if he reacted to the chants that would make him a babyface, and he would get into trouble when he went backstage. Mike says it was hard to maintain his composure, but inside he was eating it up. Mike said Randy Orton was very, very angry during that match, and he was actually complaining in the ring during the whole match. Mike says Randy kept complaining the match was stupid and never should have been booked, and kept saying “why are we even wrestling?” Mike said he apologized to Randy Orton but there is nothing he could have done. Question: Has there ever been a big moment or surprise that not only shocked the fans, but the wrestlers and referees as well? Mike says that very rarely happens, because referees are always told ahead of time about what is going to happen during the match, and how they are expected to react. Mike says you can’t really pull a surprise on a referee and expect them to do their job properly. Conrad asks if Mike was surprised by the appearance of Eric Bischoff in WWE. Mike says that yes...Eric Bischoff showing up at Raw definitely was a total surprise and very people backstage knew that was going to happen. Mike says that actually shocked him. Mike says that he was surprised Vince McMahon would want to work with Eric Bischoff after all the things Eric had said about Vince while he was running WCW. Mike says nobody should underestimate how much Vince McMahon hated Eric Bischoff. Mike tells a hilarious story about while Eric Bischoff was running WCW, he paid a ton of money and arranged to have a billboard advertising WCW Monday Nitro, right outside WWE Headquarters. Mike says somebody must have told Eric where Vince’s office was, because the billboard was directly facing Vince’s office window...so every time Vince looked out the window all he could see was a giant WCW billboard. Mike says he knows Vince had to look at it every day, and it drove him nuts. Mike says that he knows how Vince McMahon thinks. Mike says Vince would work with pretty much anybody if he thought it would make him money. However, Mike says if Vince ever hires somebody who has upset him in the past, Vince will always find a way to get revenge on the person and humiliate or embarrass them as payback. Mike thinks Vince hired Eric Bischoff partially because he thought he was a good talent, but also so he could screw with him, and humiliate him and get revenge. Mike says he was rarely shocked when Vince would bring back somebody who left the WWF under bad circumstances, but he definitely admits he never thought he’d see Eric Bischoff in WWE. Question: What does Mike Chioda think of the recent angle where Randy Orton set The Fiend on fire? Mike says he doesn’t know anything about that. Conrad fills him in on the “Firefly Funhouse Inferno Match.” Mike says he does not watch WWE, he watches AEW and based on what he has heard about the ratings lately, he isn’t the only one who isn’t watching WWE anymore. Question: How many years do you have to work in the business to earn the title “Senior Referee?” Mike says that when you look at cars, 15 years is a classic, 25 years is an antique. When it comes to referees, 15-20 years makes you a Senior Referee. Mike says it takes a very long time to learn to be a referee and it takes at least 15 years to learn all the different tricks. Question: During his entire WWF/E career, was Mike ever asked to do something that he was uncomfortable with, that he refused to do? Mike says yes, absolutely. “Be a stooge.” Conrad asks Mike to explain. Mike says that when a new Vice President of Talent Relations started in WWE, he met with all the referees and told them that it was now part of his job to basically spy on the talent, and inform the office what they were up to. For example, Mike was told he needed to start making notes about what time the wrestlers were arriving at the arenas for house shows, and report back to the office if they were late, and by how much. Mike says he was actually told he needed to hide in the corner and basically spy on the wrestlers and report back to the office. Mike says that was something that he would absolutely not do. Mike says that WWE have totally changed the responsibilities of the referees over the past few years. Mike says that the refs used to be the ring crew, drive the trucks, and then referee the matches. Mike says now, the office basically uses the referees as gophers and stooges, and that Mike does not think that is the job of a referee. Mike says that in WWE, referees do not get paid transportation or lodging. Mike says referees have to pay their own way everywhere, and pay for hotel rooms. Mike says that if you are friends with the wrestlers, they will split expenses with you, share a car and a hotel room. Mike says if the wrestlers know you are going to go back to the office and report on everything you see and hear, then they will not trust you and it won’t work. Mike says nobody wants to travel with a stooge. Mike says that when a referee stooges on the talent to the office, the office then turns around and fines the talent $500 - $1000 for being late. So why would a Pro Wrestler want to travel with or be friends with somebody who could cost them money? Conrad asks who were Mike’s favorite Talent Relations executives, and who were his least favorites? Mike says without a doubt, his favorite VP of Talent Relations, was Jim Ross. Mike says Jim Ross was a man, he was old school and his handshake meant something. Mike says that if JR told you something was going to get done, it got done. Mike says that JR took great care of the referees, because he understood how important they were. Mike says JR came up in the business and JR’s first job in the Pro Wrestling business was as a referee so he had respect for the refs. Mike says while JR was in charge of the referees, there weren’t even any employment contracts for the refs, everything was done on a handshake deal, but Mike didn’t feel insecure about that because he trusted JR. Mike says JR was in charge of the pay for the referees, and he paid very well and even gave performance bonuses. Conrad asks who was the worst? Mike doesn’t hesitate and says Mark Carrano. Conrad says he is not surprised to hear Mike say that, because he has never heard anybody say anything nice about Mark Carrano. Conrad asks why Carrano has so much heat with everybody? Mike says: “because he’s the shits.” Mike says Mark Carrano has paid no dues in the Pro Wrestling business. He never put together a ring. He never worked as a ring attendant taking robes. He never drove the truck. He never refereed a match. Mike says maybe Mark paid his dues in the office, but not with the boys. Mike says Mark Carrano is just that...a “mark.” Not his name, that’s what he is...a mark. Mike says he might as well be honest...he was talking about Mark Carrano when he just told the story about being ordered to “stooge” on the wrestlers in WWE. Mike says that is probably what cost him his job in WWE, the fact that he wouldn’t stooge on the boys. Mike says that you can’t trust Mark Carrano, he will tell you one thing but say something else behind his back. Mike says that when Carrano fired him, he was told it was because he was making so much money, because he had been there so long...but Mike knows for a fact it was actually because he refused to spy on the boys, like the other refs did. Mike says that’s why they got rid of a lot of the old school refs. Conrad asks for examples of some of the things Mark Carrano has done that the Pro Wrestlers and referees didn’t like. Mike says they don’t have enough time on the podcast to list that many things. Mike says he won’t even look you in the eye when he talks to you. Mike says he knows it was Mark Carrano’s idea to fire him and they just used the Pandemic as an excuse. Mike says he doesn’t think that Vince McMahon or Stephanie wanted him fired, but he thinks Mark Carrano did so he talked Triple H into approving it, and then Carrano fired him. Conrad asks what is was like for Mike working with Mark Carrano when he disliked him this much. Mike says he was professional with him, but he didn’t like him so he avoided him as much as he could. Mike says he understands that the VP of Talent Relations is a thankless job and that Vince always puts all the heat on whoever is in that position, but he just didn’t like, trust or respect Mark Carrano. Mike says this is the first time he’s talked about Mark Carrano since he was released,and he doesn’t like talking about him. Mike says: “when you put somebody’s name out there, you’re putting them over either way, bad or good” and he doesn’t want to do anything to put Mark Carrano over. Conrad says he can tell Mike is getting upset talking about this, so he apologizes and says they will move on. Mike says it’s okay...but he doesn’t even like to think about Mark Carrano because he didn’t pay his dues and turned the referee’s job in WWE into something Mike doesn’t agree with. Conrad says he will find a different question, so they can talk about something happier. Question: Was there a referee Mike Chioda looked up to when he was growing up and getting into the business. Mike says definitely Joey Marella. Mike says that although he ended up having a totally different style from Joey, especially when it came to counting, he really looked up to Joey Marella and emulated a lot of the things he did, and how he carried himself. Mike says Joey set a great example for a young referee. Mike says another example would be Dick Woehrle. Mike says he was very old school, he wore wrestling boots under his referee uniform and took the business and his job very seriously, and Mike really looked up to him for that. Mike says he grew up in the business idolizing Dick Woehrle. Question: Has Mike ever had to prevent fans from entering the ring to attack the wrestlers. Mike says that has happened many times during house shows. Mike says there are two different situations. Mike says sometimes kids will rush the ring because they are excited or want to touch their favorite wrestlers or get involved in the match. Mike says in cases like that, he would just grab the kid and hold them until security came to escort the fan away. Mike says he would never want to hurt a young kid. Mike said the other, scarier scenario is when a fan rushes the ring with the specific intent to harm somebody. Mike says that once when he was refereeing a Stone Cold/Triple H match in Germany, a crazed fan rushed the ring and tried to attack Stone Cold, but the Security Guard just stood there and didn’t do anything because he thought it was part of the show. Mike says Hunter managed to get the fan down and had him in a chokehold, but the guy was crazy and kept fighting. Mike says he tried to help and kept trying to kick the fan, but he kept accidentally hitting Triple H and Triple H finally yelled at Mike and told him to stop kicking him in the head. Mike says the incident is on YouTube, and if you watch it you will see Mike accidentally kicking Triple H in the head. Question: Is there any heat between Mike Chioda and the Hebner Brothers, since Mike pretty much took over the Senior Referee position in WWE after Earl and Dave Hebner were fired? Mike says he hopes not, because there is no heat on his part. Mike says he always got along great with Earl, who taught him a lot and he really liked Dave Hebner. Mike says Dave Hebner was an agent but he used to be a referee so he respected the refs. Mike says at one point, Dave Hebner was the agent in charge of all the referees and he always took very good care of Mike and paid bonuses. Mike points out the Earl’s son Brian is also a referee and is really good at his job. Question: What is Mike Chioda’s current status with AEW and would he want to work there full time? Mike says he is friends with Cody Rhodes, so after Mike got released Cody called him and said he wanted to bring Mike in to AEW on a part time basis. Mike says Cody told him he wanted an experienced referee for the big PPV and TV matches, and for important angles, because he trusted Mike. Mike says he does not have a contract with AEW but he would love to work there full time if the chance ever presented itself. Mike says the atmosphere backstage in AEW is totally different from WWE, it is so much more relaxed but still professional. Mike says he especially likes being around all the young talent who are still coming up in the business. Mike says he hopes to work more for AEW in the future. Question: Did Mike have a good relationship with Chris Benoit? Mike says he had a great relationship with Chris Benoit, and that he considered him a friend. Mike says Chris gave him the nickname “Coyote.” Mike says the main thing with Chris Benoit was that he was big on respect for the business and the Locker Room. Mike says that if Benoit thought you were being disrespectful to the boys or the Locker Room, he would kick you out and he saw Benoit do that several times over the years. Mike says that if Chris Benoit let you sit down next to him, then you knew he respected you, and he had sat down next to Benoit many times. Mike tells a funny story about a time Chris Benoit came up to him at a show, and showed him a picture. The picture was of Chris Benoit putting the Crippler Crossface on Brock Lesnar. Mike says Brock Lesnar had a big line of drool hanging out of his mouth, and then Mike looked at Chris Benoit and Benoit also had big line of drool hanging out of his mouth too. Chris told Mike to look at himself, so Mike looked at his own face in the picture. In the picture, Mike was yelling at Brock and asking him if he wanted to give up, and sure enough Mike Chiolda had a big line of drool hanging out of his mouth too. Mike says he and Chris Benoit laughed their heads off over the picture of all three guys drooling. Mike asked Chris to sign the picture and says he still has the hilarious photo to this day, of himself, Chris Benoit and Brock Lesnar all drooling. Conrad asks Mike if he ever saw signs of Chris Benoit having a bad temper or being a bit unbalanced? Mike says yes, he has to admit he did. Mike says one time WWE was on an extended European tour, and they were in England. Mike says they had been on the road for about 10 days at that point and everybody was very tired. Mike says they pulled into their hotel in Manchester and when they went into the lobby, there was a huge crowd of English Football/Soccer players in the lobby, and they were all drunk. Mike says as soon as the British Footballers saw the WWE wrestlers, they started mocking them and shooting their mouths off. Mike says that one thing lead to another, and soon enough there was a massive brawl going on in the lobby of the hotel between all the WWE wrestlers and the Footballers. Mike says it was hilarious, because Johnny Ace was there and was running around trying to get everybody to calm down, but nobody was listening. Mike does a humorous (and fairly accurate) intimation of Johnny Ace at this point. Mike says at one point during the fight, a huge footballer walked up to Dave Batista and squared off with him nose to nose. Mike says the footballer was talking all sorts of trash, claiming that he was the World Kickboxing Champion and that he was going to kick Batista’s ass, etc. Batista called the guy on, but before anything could happen, Chris Benoit showed up and physically inserted himself between Batista and the footballer. Mike pointed out that Batista was much bigger and more physically imposing than Benoit was, but the footballer wasn’t the least bit scared of Batista, in fact he was encouraging Batista to fight. Mike claims that as soon as Chris Benoit interjected in the fight, he got right up in the footballer’s face and Benoit looked absolutely insane with his eyes looking all crazy. Mike says as soon as Benoit got into the guy’s face, the guy looked terrified and he literally ran away from Chris Benoit because he looked enraged and insane. Mike says he couldn’t believe at first that the footballer wanted to fight Batista but ran away from Benoit, but when Benoit turned around and Mike saw the expression in his face, Mike understood because Benoit looked insane. Conrad says he has actually heard about that fight before. Conrad says that Hurricane Helms told him the story of that fight “off the air” and that Helms had told Conrad that Benoit was acting insane that night. Conrad says that Helms told him that Chris Benoit actually put the Crippler Crossface on a guy for real during that fight. Mike confirms that is true. Conrad says Hurricane Helms told him that the fight was in a bar, but Mike corrected him and said that the fight was in the hotel lobby, but there was a bar in the lobby. Mike says they are talking about the same fight. Question: Mike was a referee and was not involved in creative, but was there ever a time that he had a really good idea and pitched it somebody? Mike says not really. Mike says he kept to himself. Mike says he did help plan finishes, but storylines were up to the writers, producers and Vince. Mike says he did help contribute an idea for the finish for a Money in the Bank match. Mike says he envisioned two guys fighting on the top of the ladder for the briefcase, when the briefcase opens...one guy grabs the briefcase but the other pulls out the contract at the same time, and they both hit the mat. Mike said he thought it would be interesting since the briefcase means nothing without the contract, but the contract is not official without the briefcase. Mike says Pat Patterson loved the idea, and pitched it to Vince but Vince shot it down. Question: Did Mike ever referee a match where he had to tell the participants to pick up the pace because they were losing the crowd? Mike laughs and says yes, many times. Mike said if the crowd was getting restless then he would be told through his earpiece to tell the wrestlers to pick up the pace and get things going. Question: What was it like being the referee during a match involving Vince McMahon? Did Vince take his cues from Mike like the other wrestlers, or did he do what he wanted because he was the boss? How did it feel being able to boss Vince around during the match? Mike says when he refereed matches with Vince he would tell him how to do something, but not what to do. Mike said Vince actually relied on Mike’s perspective on things during his matches. Mike says nobody ever told Vince what to do. Mike says he was flattered when Vince wanted him to referee his matches, because that meant Vince had confidence in him. Question: Did the production crew hang out with “the boys” or did they stick to themselves? Also, did Mike Chioda ever go gambling with Gorilla Monsoon? Mike says he did gamble with Gorilla in the Atlantic City Casinos, but mostly with Joey since they were friends. Mike says everybody always hung out together, the crew and the boys because they all stayed at the same hotel. Mike said it was different for TV production, because they had their own bus and were on a different schedule from the boys...but if they could they all hung out together. Question: Do you think it would be feasible for WWE to go back to just running 6 PPV events a year? Mike says that when you only run 4-6 PPV shows a year, it gave the creative staff much more time to build up the storylines between the talent and you could keep guys apart until their big match. Mike says monthly PPV shows really hurts the buildup for the shows and it got repetitive. Mike says less would be better. Question: Was Mike there when The Undertaker got badly burned at Elimination Chamber 2010, and if so what was it like? Mike: “He was PISSED.” Mike says the pyro guy got fired for that. Mike says he remembers how angry The Undertaker was, but that the fault was totally on the pyro guy, he messed up the cues. Mike says The Undertaker could have literally been killed. Question: Was there any time Mike missed his “go home” cue and messed up the finish, so he got in trouble for it? Mike says no, not really. Mike said he used to mess up once in a while at Live Events but he can’t remember ever messing up a TV or PPV match. Question: Does Mike remember the first time he refereed a match on TV, and if so who was in the match and where was it? Mike says he made his TV debut in 1989, and he is pretty sure it was a singles match between Marty Janetty and Duane Gill. Mike says he has saved a program with a picture of the match, and he is pretty sure the reason he saved that program and picture is because he is in the picture and it was his first match. Question: Does Mike have any stories or insight into when Seth Rollins cashed in his Money in the Bank briefcase at Wrestlemania 31 and changed the Main Event, since Mike was the referee for the match? Did Mike know how that was going to go down? Mike says during the whole week leading up to the match, it was just supposed to be Reigns vs. Lesnar and he had been prepared for that, when all of the sudden the day of the show they totally changed it. Mike says of course he knew before the match that the finish had been changed, but he didn’t know prior to the day of Wrestlemania. Mike says he thought it was a great moment. Mike says he was really happy for Seth Rollins because he worked so hard and was always trying to improve every week. Mike says he is proud of Seth, he was a hell of guy and a good worker. Question: Was there anybody that Mike never got to work with, that he wishes he had? Mike says as he records this podcast, he is looking at a picture in his office with himself and Bruno Sammartino and he would have loved to work a Bruno match back when he used to sell out Madison Square Garden. Mike says he would have loved to referee a match involving Gorilla Monsoon, Blackjack Lanza or Renee Goulet. Mike says he wished he would have got the chance to work with Jesse Ventura as well. Question: What did Mike Chioda’s parents think when he told them he was going to get into the Pro Wrestling business? Mike laughs and says: “They didn’t like it!” Mike says he was refereeing when he was only 16 years old, working for Víctor Quiñones in the Philly and South Jersey. Mike says Gorilla Monsoon had set that up for him, since Mike grew up with Joey Marella and knew Gorilla when he was just a kid. Mike says he made a ton of money as a teenager and his Mom freaked out when she found rolls of money in his sock drawer. Mike says that his parents were worried because by the time he was 17 years old he owned four cars from all the money he was making. Mike says he had always wanted to be a professional baseball player, but then Victor started paying him $500 a night to sell programs and referee. (Sidenote: What the hell?! I smell bullshit.) Mike said that because his parents didn’t like him working in Pro Wrestling, he quit for a while and got a job as a machinist, but eventually he quit that and went back to Pro Wrestling. Mike says once his Dad saw him on TV, he was proud of him and accepted that Mike was a referee. Mike says his parents didn’t think Pro Wrestling was a serious job and they were very skeptical about it at first, but they came around. Question: Since Mike is from New Jersey, does that mean he is a Bruce Springsteen fan? Mike says he is a huge Bruce Springsteen fan. Mike says his favorite song is “Jersey Girl.” Mike says he has seen Springsteen in concert four times. Mike says he can’t believe it when some people say Jon Bon Jovi is the best performer from New Jersey because it is Bruce Springsteen, for sure. Question: What is the role of a referee during a Royal Rumble? Mike says there is not much for a referee to do during a Royal Rumble, just stand around the ring and make the call if somebody goes over the top rope, or if they go through the ropes. Question: What does Mike think of the last World Title run Hulk Hogan had in 2002? Mike says he liked that Hogan went back to the Red and Yellow, but that the highlight of Hogan’s final run was the Rock/Hogan match and maybe that should have been the end for Hogan. But he knows Hogan had a lot of fun during his last run, and he knows that the fans enjoyed the nostalgia. Mike says it couldn’t compare to the 80’s. Question: Did a wrestler ever do such a good job of selling during a match that Mike thought they were actually injured? Or did anybody ever pretend to be injured as a “rib?” Mike says no, he could usually tell. Mike says there were some guys that would rib him and pretend to be hurt, but all that stopped when WWE introduced the “Concussion Protocol” and everybody started taking in ring injuries much more seriously. Mike says after the Concussion Protocol was introduced, nobody would ever pretend to be injured if they weren’t. Question: During the Hogan/Rock match at Wrestlemania, was Mike involved in discussing the two men switching roles between heel and babyface during the match? Also, can Mike clear up the rumor that Hall and Nash coming down to attack Hogan was an “on the fly” decision that was made once Vince saw the way the fans were cheering for Hulk Hogan? Mike says Hogan and The Rock were totally surprised by the crowd reaction, especially when Hogan made his entrance. Mike says Hogan and The Rock talked between themselves during the match and decided to switch roles, and Mike didn’t really have anything to do with it. Mike says he was “marking out” during the match for the reaction Hogan was getting. Mike says it was always planned that Hall and Nash would get involved in the match, but he’s not sure it was always planned for them to turn on Hogan. But Mike is very sure it was always part of the plan for Hall and Nash to come down to the ring at the end of the match. Mike said Hulk Hogan was in a lot of pain during that match, and he actually broke a rib during the match. Question: Was Mike Chioda on “The Plane Ride from Hell?” Mike doesn’t know which plane ride was the plane ride from hell...was it the flight from Japan to Russia where they all almost died due to a snow storm? Conrad clarifies that the flight he is referring to is the flight back to the USA from England, when everybody got drunk and Michael Hayes almost peed on Linda McMahon, and somebody cut off Michael Hayes hair. Mike says he remembers Michael getting his hair cut off, but he didn’t think it was in 2002...he thought it was much earlier and Kerry Von Erich was there. Conrad says no, this was much later...and starts listing off all the things that happened on the flight. When Conrad gets to the part with Flair walking around naked, except for his robe... Mike says: “Oh yeah. NOW I remember.” Mike says he was sleeping during most of the flight. Mike says he remembers that was the last ever Charter Plane WWE booked where booze was served. Mike says that he had a few drinks and went to sleep, and when he woke up he couldn’t believe all the stories he heard about what had happened while he was sleeping. Mike says that based on everything else that was going on during that flight, he was relieved that nobody shaved his head or eyebrows while he was sleeping. Conrad asks why Mike thought Kerry Von Erich was involved. Mike says he used to travel with Kerry when he was in the WWF, and Kerry was a big fan of cutting people’s hair while they were sleeping...but Mike was thinking of a different incident. Conrad says that he has been told The Nasty Boys used to be famous for shaving people’s eyebrows while they were sleeping. Conrad says that on the package for the 1-2-3 Kid WWF action figure, Sean Waltman has no eyebrows because Brian Knobbs shaved them the night before the photo shoot. Conrad says that Brian Knobbs told him that he also liked to shave just one of his victim's eyebrows, and make them decide if he wanted to shave the other or walk around with one eyebrow. Brian Knobbs eventually shaved his own eyebrows off, because he was so afraid of retaliation. Mike says all those stories are absolutely true. Mike says that somebody once shaved one of his eyebrows off, and Bret Hart used a magic marker and tried to help him by drawing another eyebrow, because he was an artist. But Bret couldn’t get it to look right, so Mike ended up shaving both off. Mike thinks it was Davey Boy Smith who got him. Conrad says this has been the best episode of Mike Chioda’s Mailbag that they have done yet. Conrad says he and Mike will have to talk when they go off the air to decide if Mike wants Conrad to edit any of the things they have talked about out of the show, due to their controversial nature. Conrad thanks Mike for his honesty during these interviews,and says that he loves the fact that there is no filter and “no bullshit” from Mike on these shows. Mike says he is the one who should thank Conrad for the opportunity to share these stories and trust him...there are plenty more to come. Mike hypes his shirts at Pro Wrestling Tees...and we are out of time... ~End of Interview~

The "Eric Fires Back" series seems to be getting a lot of votes, but I could use a bit of a break from listening to Bischoff for a while. Plus, those "Fires Back" shows are going to be a bitch to transcribe because I'll have to recap both the Shoot Interview clips and then Eric's rebuttal. I will definitely do the first episode, but I'm going to put that on hold. Based on the reaction in this thread, I think next up I will tackle either an episode of Mailbag with Mike Chioda, or the Herd Interview.

In my 38 years as a Pro Wrestling fan, I've seen a fair amount of live shows...but sad to say there are a precious few that really stand out in my mind. That can mostly be attributed to the fact that from around 1984-1990, the WWF pretty much had a total stranglehold on the live wrestling scene where I live. The promoter was Jack Tunney (the kayfabe "President" of the WWF) and he was pretty notorious for going to great lengths to keep any other promotions off Toronto television and especially out of any of the major venues. So we got pretty much all WWF, all the time. The WWF ran house shows every three weeks at Maple Leaf Gardens from around 84-89 or so. I went to the majority of those shows, but sadly not many of the matches really stand out in my mind after all this time. That's pretty sad, when you think about it...but looking back most of those 80's WWF house shows were total crap. There was of course the record setting "Big Event" at the Canadian National Exhibition in 1986, where Hulk Hogan fought Paul Orndorff. They managed to get 74,000 fans at that event...people really wanted to see Hogan get revenge on "Mr. Wonderful" after Orndorff turned on him. But that is not the match I remember best from that show. Here are my Top 10 picks. Randy Savage vs. Tito Santana (Toronto, Maple Leaf Gardens - 06/15/86) This was for Savage's IC Title, after he had screwed Santana out of the belt by using a foreign object at the Boston Garden. I was "smart" at this point, and knew the title wasn't going to change hands at a non-televised house show. Also, I went into this match being pretty lukewarm on Tito Santana. I didn't hate him, but I certainly wasn't a fan. The heat for this match was so insane that I actually got caught up and thought for a moment Santana might win his title back. This is the match that totally won me over as a Tito Santana fan. I got to see Savage/Steamboat live at one point as well...but for some reason I found the heat and crowd emotion stronger for this match. At least that's how I remember it. The British Bulldogs vs. The Hart Foundation (Toronto, Maple Leaf Gardens - 06/15/86) These two teams fought each other a million times, but this was pretty early in their run. This was before Dynamite Kid's injury so the Bulldogs were both at 100% and I still remember being blown away by their athleticism. Ricky Steamboat vs. Jake "The Snake" Roberts ("The Big Event" Toronto, Canadian National Exhibition - 08/28/86) The SPCA wouldn't let Jake bring his snake to the ring for this match. To be honest, this match is the only one I have a vivid memory of from this show. I remember Hogan vs. Orndorff, but I liked this match more. Aside from the massive crowd, the only other major memory I have is seeing Andre The Giant (excuse me..."Giant Machine") up close. I was on the aisle and when he walked right past me I couldn't believe how big he was in person. The Southern Boys vs. The Midnight Express (WCW House Show, Toronto, 06/27/90) This was the first time WCW had run a show in Toronto since Jim Crockett used to run Maple Leaf Gardens in the early 80's. Even though WCW had no TV coverage in Toronto (I found out about this show from an ad in the newspaper) they managed to draw 4000 fans to the CNE Coliseum (which in those days was pretty much a glorified livestock arena. It has since been renovated and is now the arena WWE runs, but back then it was a total dump. But that's the only arena WCW could get into...the WWF sure as hell wasn't going to let them into Maple Leaf Gardens.) I think if I was to see this match now, I'd think it was nothing special but at least I can say I got to see Cornette and The Midnight Express once. Lex Luger vs. Ric Flair (WCW House Show, Toronto, 06/27/90) This was a good match, which Luger won with the Torture Rack. The fans went crazy. Then they announced that the World Heavyweight Championship hadn't actually been on the line...because the show was held in Canada?! Total "Dusty finish" (even though I don't think he was booking at that time.) But hell, just like with the match listed above...I got to see Ric Fair in his prime, live. For a fan in Toronto, that was pretty much an impossibility since Toronto was WWF exclusive. This show took place just a couple of months after Wrestlemania 6 had sold out the Skydome...and poor WCW only drew 4000 fans in a really crappy arena. RVD vs. Bam Bam Bigelow (RVD wins the TV Title - ECW TV Taping, Buffalo New York - 04/04/98) Me and my buddy used to drive down to Buffalo when ECW was in town because they didn't run Toronto at that time, and didn't have TV up here. I'm pretty sure this was the first ECW show I ever went to live. Noteworthy because RVD won the TV Title here, and went on to hold it for ages. Sabu vs. Terry Funk (Independent Show, Toronto 6/6/99) Once again, this match wasn't anything special...but it was Terry Funk, up close. This was held in a Strip Joint and there couldn't have been more than a couple of hundred fans. This was the last time Terry Funk ever wrestled in Toronto. The highlight of this match was Sabu doing that spot where he balances on the top rope and dives into the crowd, because my friends and I had to flee in terror because he would have almost landed on top of us. Sabu vs. 2 Cold Scorpio - Ladder Match (Independent Show at Medieval Times in Toronto, Summer of 99) Don't remember the date of this show, I just remember it would have been the summer of 1999. A local Independent Promotion called the "CWA" used to run shows at the Medieval Times on a fairly regular basis here in Toronto. I always used to go, and I got to see some big names in a small venue. I mainly remember this show because (as always) Sabu almost killed himself in front of a crowd that couldn't have been more than 1,500 people. Masato Tanaka vs. Mike Awesome (ECW November to Remember 99, Buffalo - 11/07/99) I loved N2R99. There were a bunch of great matches on this show. A highlight was when New Jack and Balls and Axl fought "Da Baldies." New Jack smashed one of the guys over the head with a computer keyboard, and all the keys went flying in the air and landed on my friends and I. But of all the matches on that show, Tanaka vs. Awesome was the best. Those two guys always used to kill each other, every time they fought. Kevin Steen vs. Nigel McGuinness (ROH "Northern Navigation" - 07/25/08) This was my first ROH show. This reminded me of the Santana/Savage match, because I went into it not being a big Kevin Steen fan, but I actually got caught up in it and found myself cheering for him to win the ROH Championship. This was a really good match. Hiroshi Tanahashi and Jushin Thunder Liger vs. Jado and Shinsuke Nakamura (ROH "Global Wars" 05/10/14) To be honest, this match was nothing to write home about...but I got to see Tanahashi, Nakamura and especially Liger live, dammit. Not many Canadian fans can say that. Plus I got a high five from Jushin Thunder Liger!