anarchistxx

Total Divas is a better show than Raw.

Learned I will never get back into wrestling, sadly. Not properly. Kept meaning to watch mountains of stuff for this poll...ended up just smashing it in for a few weeks and even then I wasn't ever marking out by anything or getting especially excited. I fell out of wrestling as an obsessive, passionate fandom around 2006 and always assumed that one day when my time was less pressured it would return to being a major hobby for me. Unfortunately it doesn't look like it will ever happen now, which is a shame as it was a major, major part of my life between 2001/2002 and 2006/2007. I just can't invest in a particular promotion or watch stacks of stuff anymore. I did majorly review my old folders, notes, ratings, reviews and thoughts to help with ranking. I'm actually more interested in wrestling as a business now. I'd rather read about the economic side of things, debate the rationale of why a particular person is getting pushed, talk about the booking and the scripting and the presentation. A thirty minute workrate match does very little for me by comparison. In terms of the last decade, Daniel Bryan got me invested in WWE for his run in and around the top of the card, and the product between 2012 and 2014 was fun enough to follow, especially when The Shield rolled up. KENTA/Nakajima is the last series of wrestling matches that had me going crazy and that was fucking 2009.

Because Triple H has to have his epic 25-minute-plus star-making main event without anyone's attention being diverted? Don't really buy this. The HHH/Taker and HHH/Sting abominations were full of ridiculous distractions and run ins. HHH big matches are often synonymous with screwy finishes and gimmicks.

Brock shouldn't really count though - he has only released singles since 2004. This thread is more about who has been putting out full albums packed with filler for years, with the only standout tracks being the hits.

Couldn't put him on my list in good faith. Those Undertaker matches in particular are woeful, as well as spending thirty minutes in disbelief as he presented himself as a credible threat to Brock Lesnar and even worked the match like the ace. Even the face of the company in John Cena gets decimated by Lesnar and works the match on his terms. Would have listed him ten years ago after growing up watching his every week - he did have some superb matches in his time. I've only watched sporadically since then but in the last decade Daniel Bryan is literally the only man to drag a great match out of him, and he has been involved in some utterly tedious self conscious epics.

John Cena got the exact same reactions. Imagine if a year or two into his solo push they heard the cascading boos and just pulled the plug and decided it wasn't working. Imagine if they had heard the boos and decided they might as well cull the whole idea of him as a top guy, like some people on this board want them to do to Roman Reigns. Anyone WWE pushes as the company ace is going to get some heat if they are developed in house rather than an internet favorite doing workrate matches who is perceived as a great worker who has paid dues. That is the nature of WWE crowds on TV and PPV. Roman Reigns continues to get huge reactions. On Raw he is booed massively by the snarky hardcores, cheered massively by the kids and the females - just about everyone in the arena is reacting to him, in some way. In 2016, that is being over, and it is fucking hard to achieve. He is over at house shows. He sells merchandise. He has got reactions as both a face and heel. Virtually nobody in this era is going to get a universally positive reaction. Daniel Bryan is the only one that springs to mind. The WWE would be far more worried about people just sitting on their hands silent and bored through every segment than they will be about a ton of negative heat. I've seen very little evidence Dean Ambrose is more over, more talented, better in the ring, a better promo or a better character than Roman Reigns. He is also much less credible as the ace. WWE should stick to their guns, just like they did with John Cena.

What a truly appalling card.

It's a great match but a masterpiece and in contention for greatest WWE match ever? If you consider contention like maybe the 40th best match they have had? It has kind of this incessant, urgent intensity to it the entire way through that very few WWE bouts can match. There are no peaks or troughs. The closest comparison is Bret vs Austin. Everything is crisp, aggressive, purposeful. The character work is sublime. The screwy finish for once works perfectly in the context. It feels like a bloody, personal battle but is also elevated by the world title being at stake, and in the process elevates the title itself by the quality of the work and the desperation to win the match or hold on to the strap by any means necessary. It is the culmination of paranoid, violent, unhinged 2001 Austin who needs the title and will do whatever it takes to hold onto it. That sequence when he repeatedly hurls Angle into the ring post and then unleashes some beautiful punches as he is prone against the apron bleeding everywhere. And Kurt's revenge, with the fiery, angry comeback, suplexing him on the floor and unleashing a beautiful moonsault. JR calls the match perfectly. Love Austin's gradual realization as the match progresses that he won't be able to beat Kurt Angle on this night, his opponent is too driven, too good. Brilliant match, and possibly the only WWE match that would be a lock for my Top 25 of all time.

SS01 is absolutely a masterpiece, contender for the best WWE match ever. Best Kurt Angle performance as well, face covered in blood, furiously fiery and righteous and emotional, with Austin the angry rabid dog backed into a corner and trying anything to escape with his title.

Part of WWEs problem is shoving anyone half decent who is half over into the main event to see if it sticks. That is why they haven't made a genuine top star since John Cena, Randy Orton and Batista broke through. CM Punk and Daniel Bryan are the only arguable candidates and they pretty much forced their way to the top. Not everyone should get a shot at a main event level run just to see what happens. It devalues the main event, and you end up with a roster of people like Dolph Ziggler, Jack Swagger, The Miz et al who have held world titles in the past and are still jobbing every week and moved up and down the card whenever it suits. Not to mention the Rusev and Bray Wyatt types. So many people on the same level who trade jobs every week and it means nothing. There is no continuity and it means a dearth of top stars. If someone is getting pushed to the main event it should be a big deal and they should be consistent in giving them a run on top for a year or two, unless they have completely bungled it and it goes totally wrong. There is nothing wrong with being a solid, over midcard act. I'm not saying people on his level shouldn't have the occasional title shot, but there is no way he should be top of the card consistently. It just isn't his role in a company like WWE. Everyone is Chris Jericho now, moving up and down the card with no rhyme or reason and where wins and losses mean absolutely nothing. Whereas Chris Jericho and Chris Benoit types are pretty rare, where they are equally at home in the opener or the main event. Ad even then, they never properly join the top table.

That seems quite generous, because I'm pretty sure you shit all over HBK/Angle when it happened. I was a kid marking out at a dream match that had actually delivered, and you told me that in a few years time I wouldn't hold the match in anywhere near the same esteem. You were right, for what it is worth. On topic. Cesaro never did too much for me, whether on the indies or on WWE. He was someone I enjoyed watching who brought something different, but arguing he should be in the main event and winning titles was a massive stretch for me. His spot as an over midcard act who could work a solid match and get people over was just right.

That is a criticism that can be leveled at a lot of top workers, though. Kenta Kobashi did exactly the same thing in most of his big matches from 2000 onward. Every heavyweight title match in Japan for a while had fighting spirit sections where someone would pop up from a huge head drop, even if they did end up collapsing in a heap afterwards. You can dismiss all the matches as not making sense, or you can just accept it as part of the style.

Also, there is the fact we have seen him wrestle so often, debated him, got tired of the style. When I was thirteen The Marshall Mathers LP was the pinnacle of hip hop to me. Argued about it, played it all the time, quoted every song with my friends. Now I think it sucks, and would never think of putting it on. But it is probably me who has changed, not the record. I've heard different styles, got into rap from different eras, been exposed to more stuff, started to appreciate different things. It doesn't mean anything to me anymore. But it meant a ton at the time, so it must have something about it that makes it great or compelling or impactful, even if these days i don't care for it in the least. It is by that kind of rationale that Kurt Angle and Shawn Michaels make my list. Lower than the wrestling equivalents of Talib Kweli or Kendrick Lamar or Nas, but higher than someone like Vince Staples, even though I'm ten times more likely to listen to Vince Staples than Eminem.

Sort of think TNA should have given Kurt Angle a five year title reign. He is easily the biggest name and most believable ace on their roster. Would have added something different to the product to have such a long title reign, title matches would have meant so much more, and it would have anchored the product instead of the ridiculous mess it is. In kayfabe terms Kurt Angle could easily be booked as an old school champion who nobody can beat. Placed him on my list, merely because I enjoyed watching him so much from 2000 - 2005 and he was in so many of my favorite matches of all time until I started to get into AJPW and joshi and the rest. Hate to think how those matches stand up now, given the savaging he gets around these parts. Haven't properly seen him work since 2007 either so no clue how his TNA run has destroyed his legacy. I'll just cherish the memories of marking out like a motherfucker to Angle/Benoit and Angle/Shawn and Angle/Lesnar. The match with Steve Austin at Summerslam 2001 might still be my favorite match of all time as well - the character work in that is perfect, the heat is off the charts, it is wonderfully structured and built, the blood adds so much to it, and Austin throws some of the best punches ever seen in WWE. Just a beautiful match, and probably the highlight of WWE main event style.

Not sure Kevin Owens is a 'true' heel to be honest. Nearly all his matches are 'workrate' orientated, for lack of a better term - the pseudo smart live audience that attends WWE shows tends to love loose, structureless, bomb filled indie type matches, which works against him. A true heel to those fans would work like Jimmy Rave in 2005, all rest holds and boring tropes. I've never heard him get a genuine, massive heel reaction. That is without even getting to his awful look. He has no charisma either, no presence - the epitome of the current unnatural WWE worker who looks like they are playing at being wrestlers. They have the right mannerisms, are solid in the ring, it's just something feels really off. I can't get invested in anything he does. I find the New Day horrendous, but I've never really gone for that goofy, quirky, over the top humor they bring. Just annoying to me. My WWE tastes rarely align with modern smart fans though. All the people who have come up from NXT with massive fanfare in the last few years have sucked to me. Everyone works solid, long matches in the company these days, so the people who stand out are no longer the traditional good workers - they are instead the people with presence, energy, who seem natural and believable and you can invest in.

It is hard to have the champion working both shows if you are doing a true brand split. If he is feuding over the strap with a Raw guy, what does he do on Smackdown every week when his PPV opponent isn't around? Unless he works two feuds at once. Smackdown should definitely have an exclusive belt, just keep it below the level of the main strap so you don't have the confusion over two world titles in one company. Then have the world champion make sporadic appearances on the brand when you have something for him to do.

It's strange. If you told me in 2006 that Kevin Steen and AJ Styles would be trading bombs in a twenty minute, back and forth main event on Smackdown I would have been incredulous, even heartened and excited. In practice I couldn't give less of a shit. Lazy booking on the finish - no way should AJ Styles be jobbing on Smackdown at this stage. Just run a fucking non finish if you must. They could have done the exact same thing without anyone having to take a fall. Jericho still looks like a prick, Styles doesn't suffer a loss. Jericho is brilliant at the minute though, as a character and on the mic. Still sloppy as fuck in the ring. But it is much better to watch a sloppy match you are invested in than a clean, crisp clinic that gives you zero reason to care. It's why Necro Butcher is ten times the worker Christopher Daniels is.

Skimmed through SD. - Roman Reigns is a star. Anyone pretending otherwise is pretty misguided. He always gets a reaction, negative or positive. He has an aura. Promo was excellent, they kept it short and sharp and he looked like a laid back tough as fuck badass, which is how he should be booked. - AJ Styles looks like shit. Definitely up there with Shawn Michaels at Survivor Series 2002 for the worst hair cut ever seen in a WWE ring. Lank, no shape. Not flattering at all, and isn't going to help him get over. - Kevin Owens is a horrendous promo. So awkward. He also has one of the worst looks on the roster. - WWE has ridiculous resources, a huge creative team and a big roster. So why the fuck do they fill their second flagship show with clips, adverts and fifteen minutes of a meaningless Ryback match on Raw? Seriously, what is the point in it? - Bizarre to see Bubba Ray Dudley vs Goldust on WWE television in 2016. Was a nice little match, they did the simple things really well. Scary how much more competent these two seem than almost all of the people who have joined the roster in the last five years. Subtle glances and facial expressions, character work, touches that manipulate the crowd, pacing, structure, the way it was all laid out, the way they played their respective roles. Most notably how it all seemed really natural, which is something the modern workers seem to struggle with. - Charlotte isn't a great promo. She has potential but feels like she is reading off a script and trying to remember her lines. Not sure this three way dance at Wrestlemania has been built up well at all. Maybe because I don't know who the fuck Sasha or Becky are. - They are trying so hard to make Dean Ambrose the new Steve Austin. Feels so forced. He is overexposed as well - we don't need to hear him cut a promo every week. - Main event was poor. No structure, no build, no intelligent wrestling. Not sure if these messy, meaningless, structureless workrate matches are better or worse than watching Randy Orton work a formula and sit in rest holds for the majority of fifteen minutes before they start trading finishers on the stretch. Skipped everything else, life is too short to watch The Miz or New Day promos. They need a brand split again if SD is to feel the least bit important. Give it a new, distinctive look and a new roster. A belt as well - not like when there were two world titles, more like a title that is the top strap on the brand but still inferior to the main belt. Move a ton of the workrate guys over. People are going to be less rebellious against WWE booking if Dolph Ziggler, Dean Ambrose, AJ Styles and whoever are getting shine on their own brand rather than playing second fiddle on Raw with horrible booking.

Is wildpegasus/Resident Evil still on the board under a different name? Be genuinely interested is he still had Dynamite & Benoit as #1/#2.

Just watched Jumbo vs Kerry from AJPW Classics for the first time in years. Incredible match, and makes me feel happy that KVE made my ballot. He deserves a spot based just on this and the Ric Flair Hawaii match alone, even if they were both arguably massive carry jobs.

Almost surreal to remember Smackdown around the time of those 6 Man tags involving The Shield. The show felt hot as fuck, incredible matches with huge crowd reactions every week. Compare that to the meaningless non event it is now.

Especially with the talent ROH had available at the time, it seems astonishing how prominent Adam Pearce was for about two years. BJ Whitmer also, but at least he was booked in some entertaining feuds despite being one of my least favorite wrestlers to watch ever. Them being in that ten man tag was like the WWE v WCW blowoff in 2001 at Survivor Series containing Test and Justin Credible. Delirious also got very overexposed to me at the time I stopped watching. He was only good as a fun lower card character. It's weird, for a company I enjoyed so much between 2002 and 2006 I have little interest in checking out anything they put out after 2007. Are there any gems I'm missing out? I don't really mean four star workrate matches that happened in isolation, more looking for fantastic feuds and heat filled storylines. Where does one even go to for this sort of stuff anymore? Tape traders seem to have died out.

Remember thinking that ROH v CZW 10 Man was a disappointing clusterfuck at he time, and nowhere near as good as the six man from earlier in the year. Storyline was a bit too messy - I prefer these feud blowoffs to be cleaner and more emphatic in execution. Finish was very good though. Half the problem was that Adam Pearce & BJ Whitmer weren't good enough workers or characters to really get behind as the glorious faces saving the company. The CZW workers were more likable. Strange to look back on it though. It seemed relatively normal at the time...but what indie company could get the kind of buzz and excitement that whole feud generated? 2001-2007 was a special time in indie wrestling in retrospect. Still think Necro Butcher and Briscoe Brothers are the lost stars of that period - although they had great careers, they could have been huge, huge names. Briscoes could have dominated the WWE tag division for years, and Necro could have been the never say die Mick Foley they want Dean Ambrose to be. Best ROH match for me is still Joe/Lethal v Ki/Homicide, one of the greatest tag matches of all time. Ki and Homicide as the Rottweilers were incredible, just sick, ruthless bastards. Ki should have been a bigger star too, he had a fantastic aura in spite of his size.

HHH/Ziggler was clearly booked as a way of getting HHH heat for the Wrestlemania match. Nothing they did was working so far. Guess they figured that the people booing Roman Reigns out the building were the hardcore smart fans...the same fans who idolise Dolph Ziggler. So they have HHH go over Ziggler clean, which has both a kayfabe and real life way of getting Trips heat: 1. Kayfabe heat because he destroyed a top babyface clean 2. 'Smart fan' heat because it is HHH using his backstage power yet again to hold down an amazing worker to aggrandize himself Doubt it will work, this section of the audience is resolved to hate RR, even though the kids and women in the crowd were going crazy for him.

Fuck, not sure how I missed that. Would have had him top fifty for sure.