Timbo Slice

Also, the whole big setting for matches thing for me isn't a blanket thing that swallows up how I rank all wrestlers. There are a few wrestlers on here that didn't perform on the big stages that I have in my top 50 because from a personal enjoyment standpoint, I enjoyed their matches to such a degree that putting them any further down my list wouldn't have made sense to me. I tried to have as much consistency throughout the process as possible, but some things slipped through the cracks or personal preferences overruled.

To Dylan's point, throughout the project, my proclivity to making selections was towards big matches in big settings. Yeah, I'm a whore for setting, and I personally get caught up in big matches to the point where in the middle, where I was having a tough time figuring out order, I was really just counting great matches in my head to figure it out. I totally understand the point you're making, though, and it was one of the more difficult things I dealt with in the selection process. In the end, for my sanity, I went with with my initial preferences for selection, which I think is reflected in my list (although there will be missteps, and I'm already anticipating a few to begin the next show). To Parv's point (Ha), I think Ted was a good character in the WWF and he did some good work, but it hasn't stayed with me over time like other guys have. Kerry was a surprise to me when I watched some Texas stuff, and I understand your counterpoint to the post injury point I made. My thought is that before that happened, he had more high end stuff in the time before the injury and more standout stuff, although I know there are plenty of people who prefer Ted's Mid-South stuff. He was also a victim of my race to watch more footage, and Mid-South, as I mentioned, was one of my blind spots, along with some Memphis, some Texas, and World of Sport.

HA. Holy crap. I just realized the reasoning for who I picked #1 overall directly contradicts the argument I just made about Santo and Casas. Looks like I have to rethink this whole placement thing.

I'm definitely in that "Great Match" area with Santo, especially given I just saw the two matches considered quite possibly his best recently as a reminder of what I thought of him when I first watched lucha. I love Casas and he also is going to rank high on my list, but at the same time, and my personal tiebreaker on a lot of these close calls was done this way, if I had a connection with someone and it resonated with me more than the other guy, that's who went above the other. Casas really does have a great match case, though, and the work he's doing into his 50s is in the Lawler/Tenryu/Funk range, and might be better than all of them. I'll have to come up with more sound reasoning when I explain the pick, so I hope I can do that in a way that conveys my feelings more than just "I liked him more than the other guy," but in the end, it might be the simplest and most pertinent answer.

I originally had him off thinking he was too current, but he's been good since 97 and that's a long time. Especially when you compare him to someone like Ted DiBiase. This is awesome for reasons explained in the PWSS pod to come.

Yeah, that's a way better tiebreaker.

Deciding between placing him or Casas above each other is so mind-numbingly difficult that I might actually have to flip a coin. And then figure out how high I can put the winner, because I seriously can't figure out how I would put either of them below 8, yet here I am having to do so.

It's been spoiled that Stan Hansen is going in. Probably get an announcement on Monday.

So I had 82 that were easy picks for me and 18 spots to fill after that. 20 got the shaft. Alexander Otsuka Jack Brisco (Didn't get to see enough of him) Carlos Colon (Didn't get to see enough of him) Harley Race Buddy Rogers (Didn't get to see enough of him) Bruno Sammartino Koji Kanemoto Little Guido Matt Hardy Mistico Naoki Sano Rick Rude Owen Hart Sheamus Shinsuke Nakamura Tamon Honda Villano IV Wahoo McDaniel Yoshiaki Yatsu Yoshihiro Takayama Interestingly enough, I don't know who was really the last one cut (either Rude or Brisco, but a lot had to do with me messing up my spreadsheet), but it was Dump Matsumoto before I found an incorrect entry in my list. Also, thinking back as I went through the list again to make sure I didn't overlook someone, it's weird to see who ended up staying on through the process and who were easy tosses (Somehow Christian was an easy toss for me, as was Kensuke Sasaki) but that was mainly because I didn't think of them as Top 100 material right away, and I don't think they had enough to make a late run when I was messing around with lucha, as four guys in particular ended up making my ballot for good in the last week. Most likely taking spots from Rude, Brisco, Takayama and Race. Mistico sticking around for as long as he did was a mystery to me, but his peak run was a vivid memoryand got me back into lucha. Same with Villano IV, as the longer it goes past, the Panther apuestas match looks like an all-time great match with an absolutely killer stretch run, but he didn't have enough for me like III did. Honda was extremely enjoyable, but not enough, and Sheamus, Hardy and Guido were all right there in the run for sneaking on the bottom of my list just because their work was so tight, but the lucha guys really started breaking up the ability to get guys like them on the list. Now I actually have to rank THIS 100, which will be a chore. The tag rankings, where I got to my Top 25 pretty easily, took way less time. Final cuts there were The Shield, The Freebirds, Cody & Goldust, The Jumping Bomb Angels, London & Kendrick and Jumbo & Taue, with The Shield and The Freebirds the closest to making it.

So I got to more Dandy and he feels like a top half guy for me. He might be the best blowoff match worker in the history of lucha libre. He might also be the best mat worker I've ever seen in lucha, which is saying something. Just incredible timing, great punches, great fire, he's the guy who has blown up my original idea for this list. Probably the biggest variant of the entire project for me so far, either him or Kandori.

Made the "mistake" of watching the big time lucha I could before the deadline and he's definitely gonna be on my list. An absolutely fantastic rudo, with the Dandy apuestas match in 1990 being one of the best matches of the style I've ever seen. I haven't seen enough of him to think he'd be in the top half, but he definitely makes it on there as a late entry. Makes me wish I went back and watched more lucha within the timeframe, but such is life.

Recency bias be damned, but him having the type of run he's having right now considering his peak was damn near a decade ago really does make an impact for me. He was one of those guys that was a personal favorite pick for me where he would be in my bottom five, but I think now I feel better about him being in the lower part of my list.

Tejano Kahn made my ballot.

The UWF 2.0 stuff with him might push you over the top on him a bit, but I agree with the idea that considering the style, he's not a slam dunk top-notch worker. I personally have him on my list due to my weighing his performances in big matches, and the presence like you talked about, but he wasn't a shoe-in, and the more lucha I watch as we come down the stretch, I might see him slide off.

I think on the tag team side, Sgt. Slaughter and Don Kernodle should have been nominated and I take blame considering I watched the entire Final Conflict feud and didn't even think to put them on the list. Their TV squashes were fun to watch, they had heated build up matches to the blowoff, and have one of the all-time great tandem finishers. I could have seen them sneak into the bottom of my tag list.

Hotta seemed lost in the shuffle with Kong, Nakano and Kansai all at their peaks at the same time. She didn't have a lot at the time that stood out like the other three did. That being said, she's definitely been in some memorable matches, including what's normally considered Kong's best title defense.

I'm with Matt. I really started penalizing people who didn't work smart. I think if the story is easier to follow, you rate higher with me. Also, I realized that my likes didn't really change that much over time. The things I liked more, I just looked for more in wrestlers and they showed up in those I voted for.

Did this really get called a MOTDC? Good sprint and a nice way to give Nakanishi a win on the big stage, but that's about it.

I doubt Ward will have the autonomy he had in NXT, which is a real shame. Not like Kevin Dunn and Co. are gonna jump at the opportunity to use his ideas as much as theirs. I thought Joe/Zayn was a MOTYC because they did so much to make so many things in the match actually mean something. Joe's deliberate nature once he took over in the first fall and how his dominance set the pace for the rest of the match, Sami's selling and comebacks were timed very well, and then the finish where Sami proves that even if you want to not give up, sometimes it just happens, was really well done. Joe is putting together one hell of a run right now and it's been tremendous to see him and Sami match up like this.

We'll be able to dig in to the results in a lot of ways, and if there are weird ballots, I think they'll be easy to pick out. I also think that the ballots people fear will be included (ironic or trolling, whatever you want to call it) will be at a minimum. Some asshole will try and make his point but won't get the opportunity to toot his horn about it.

I loved him against Martel in Portland in 81 (?). He changed up his normal touring NWA Champ match to give Rick more of a rub and the match was really good as a result. Martel would probably be seen as the star of the match but Race was really good in it.

Flair Hansen Funk Lawler Kawada Tenryu Jumbo Liger Misawa Rey DiBiase will be 64.

Yeah, this was brought up from the start and you can't stop people from being assholes or spamming or being contrarian. Having it open means that just by the laws of statistics that the final list will represent the voters in the best way possible.

I also realize I was trying to basically be the devil's advocate while also not trying to belittle someone else's' opinion, which is damn near impossible. It just seems like in the end, this list is what you make of it, and if at the end of the day, you feel that within your criteria bounds that Jumbo doesn't get to be on the list, then he shouldn't be. I will definitely be interested in hearing the arguments from voters for inclusion or exclusion at the end of this, though, because that's more interesting than any name being put on left off the list.

Personally, I think you're being harsh on him to an extent and that there is a law of diminishing returns with Jumbo for some people. I guess my question is why he has that type of reaction with people. There are a lot of wrestlers whose work I won't go back and watch right away, but at the same time, if I thought he's done good work, I'm still going to take that into effect when making my list. The arguments I hear against him is that his work can be tedious and he had a tendency to blow things off, but I also think that when he's at his best, he's as compelling as they come. I don't mind holding his down points against him, but it seems odd that someone who has his resume gets left off completely if you also agree he's had great matches. I watched a lot of his top matches over the course of the project again and still think that his best matches are worthwhile, but for some it seems that the more people watch of him, the less they like him. Whether that's overexposure, a change of preferences in wrestling or what have you, that change can really affect how you vote. I'm as critical of Kobashi or Toyota as anybody, but at the end of the day, I'm gonna have room for both of them on my list because I can't ignore the great things they've accomplished and those great things outweigh the things I find annoying. I damn sure will hold what I feel are their weak points against them, but I can't just throw the good stuff away. Kobashi still had the Hansen matches in 93 and the Misawa match in 97 along with an argument for being in the five best men's tag matches ever. Toyota still had the three tag matches, the Aja Big Egg match and the Yamada hair match. Those are big time matches that stand up against anyone in wrestling history and for me to say they don't matter because I won't actively seek them out seems like a bit of a disservice. If you feel like the complete picture of a worker's negative aspects are that severe, then a lot of questions get opened up and it seems like just a deep decent into diminishing returns where people can talk themselves into a lot of reasons to poke holes in someone's candidacy. I see Jumbo as a guy like Flair: Everyone has gone to great lengths to pick apart Flair's weaknesses while taking his great stuff for granted. I feel that the Jumbo hate is similar in a way, although his style isn't as accessible as Flair's is to most people. In the end, this is the Great Match Theory argument. Jumbo has become the Gordy List candidate of that argument in a lot of ways. I feel a bit off in even putting in my two cents because the subjective nature of this project is unavoidable (even when people are trying to be objective about wrestling, the inherent biases always come out about ring work, which is why this argument exists in the first place) but at the same time, I feel like I have to come to the defense of someone who does have a solid catalog of work that can be pointed to and thought of as good, great and sometimes an all-time great level. Tl;dr - You have to figure out the weight to your own personal enjoyment. And if it matters that much, then everyone's choices should reflect that weighting as much as he can.