Loss

Were these guys working the same style they usually work on TV? I only ask because I hear reports sometimes about them playing more to the crowd, doing more stalling and typical face/heel structure on house shows. Then again, this wasn't *just* a house show, so it may not be the best indicator. Also, how was Cena's crowd reaction? I ask because there have also been reports of him getting a thunderous reaction at MSG when fans know there are no cameras there.

I despise it. I think a lot of it is a work and I think it's a great thing to say on television. But as a real way to evaluate talent, it's pretty dumb. They seem to think everyone should be able to work and talk and look amazing at all times, not realizing that sometimes, someone is so strong in one or two of those areas that the others aren't nearly as critical. And at the end of the day, all that should matter is that someone connects, not how they connect. When someone breaks the mold, the mindset shouldn't be to make excuses and make sure it doesn't work, it should be to learn what worked about it and what didn't that could be applied to someone else. There are good things about WWE happening to be the company that is the last group standing. There would be major issues we'd complain about with any sole survivor. But the worst aspect of it is that it's a company more than any other that has a very boxed-in idea of what a headliner looks like, sounds like and works like. Some of the territories were equally bullish about their way being the only way, but Bill Watts is the type who would have scoffed at Daniel Bryan or Rey Mysterio at first, then admitted he was wrong and worked hard to protect them in the booking. Then again, had Bill Watts won the wrestling war, Seth Rollins would get yelled at that he needs to sell more for Titus O'Neill if he has any interest in keeping his job.

I don't think Edge was completely horrible or anything. I just don't think he's an elite worker, and more frustrating, he's not at all the type of worker who fits the descriptions he usually gets. Dave even talked about him once as one of the few guys in current wrestling (current being 2010-2011) who worked like he was in a fight and struggled to hit moves instead of working a match like a cooperative dance. His other two examples of the few who worked that way were Jericho and Orton.

Truth. The HOF is more about historiography than history, which is something I've said in previous years.

I always felt like WCW was better at coming up with goofy gimmicks a lot of the time, but couldn't market them nearly as well as the WWF did. The WWF would pay marketing teams big money to come up with gimmicks nowhere near as charmingly camp as Johnny B. Badd, Vinnie Vegas or the York Foundation.

I'm mostly indifferent to him.

I was looking for some guys who have gotten lots of play that I think are roughly perceived on the same tier as Sasuke, but I couldn't find a good comparison guy. My goal was to see how he stacked up against various other great wrestlers. I love Otani, but I can see an argument for Sasuke over Otani, even just peak-to-peak. I can't think of any reason to put someone like Curt Hennig or Brian Pillman ahead of him. I'll be surprised if Ultimo gets any votes at all, but Sasuke is way ahead of him. He would probably be neck and neck with someone like Kikuchi, but it's hard to make good comparisons. I don't know, Owen Hart, maybe?

As someone who hasn't seen much Red, does he rank above Sasuke, or probably not?

I don't even remember them all off the top of my head, but how many times in the last year or two has there been some report of Cena being touch-and-go because he had some type of injury and we weren't sure yet how serious it was? He's avoided serious injury very narrowly multiple times. Whether that's the reason he's taking off or not, that stuff will eventually catch up to him and cut into his longevity, so it's good that he'll have some down time.

Edge had a signature spot where he would run toward a guy and hug him to the ground. What's not to love? In fact, Edge *was* love.

I know some people love Worldwide because of the unique and random mid-card undercard match ups, but this was my take at the time. The syndicated shows suddenly screamed non-canonical and no need to watch once they hit Disney. Maybe that was the inevitable fate of the syndies in the Monday Night era, but the move to Orlando sped up the process. To me, the biggest issue was just that it was so obvious there was no real emotion in the building. Pro had much quieter crowds and was more of an afterthought during the same time period, but it was by far the more watchable show because they played to actual arena crowds ... until that show went to MGM in '96 and suffered the same fate.

Which is insane and shows a real problem with the voters. That I agree with in theory. What are the examples of that? Ric Flair seemed to create a template for how heel world champs with blond hair are supposed to work. Pre-Stone Cold Austin, Michaels, HHH and probably others all emulated him. For that reason, I'd think he was strong enough to go in on work alone even if he never drew a dime. Guys like Rey and Tiger Mask became superstars in spite of their size and by working a more daredevil style inside a business that feared smaller guys getting over. I wouldn't say they changed the style where everyone was working like them, but they both showed that guys their size could get over and how to go about doing it. I don't mean to compare the two as workers because much of Sayama's work doesn't look great on videotape and Rey's work had more staying power. But Rey's more enduring work wouldn't be his HOF case -- his HOF case would be that he used his in-ring ability to do something guys his size pretty much never did in wrestling.

Well, we do have a board for that, and people have never really pulled any punches when disagreeing with Parv about something. This thread can be used to share any disagreements. Heck, if someone wants to do an audio recording presenting a flipside argument, they are welcome to do that and start a thread for it too.

Vince lost sight of his major purpose being to get others over as the years went on. He was still more giving than The Authority is now, but not as much as he was in 1998.

I have no problem with guys getting in on work alone, but I think it needs to transcend being a good hand. They either need to work a highly influential style that becomes very popular, or set the standard for how people are expected to work for that spot on the card. In other words, even work alone isn't work alone -- it needs to be revered enough that others are expected to model themselves after it.

One thing that bugs me with Bischoff is the whole aesthetic of the Worldwide tapings. Did he really not think people at home would be able to figure out that something was up with the crowd reactions? Does he really think that type of crowd reaction is better than a typical arena of wrestling fans? And does he really think their presence at Disney MGM played any role at all in reversing their fortunes?

They're too sexy for this thread.

He was hugely successful. But he was a one-hit wonder. To me, it's like arguing Los Del Mar or Lou Vega for the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame.

He has had long-term influence, but I would put it second only to Vince Russo's long-term influence as the worst thing about wrestling now. Every match features name wrestlers, which means the midcard has no importance at all because they all do too many jobs and are overexposed. There's very little focus on ensuring that things make sense from week-to-week. And worst of all, WWE has a virtually unbreakable monopoly and no competition to force them to try new things and step outside their comfort zone.

I love that free trade killed British wrestling.

It didn't matter then, but that was an exceptional period and I'm not sure comparing a more "normal" business period to that is entirely fair. Even outside of WWE, whether there's anything to it or not, fall season not being a good time of year for wrestling has been a talking point for a long time. We'd have to look into it more to see if there's anything to it. And I do agree for the record that if the Creative was better, they'd have more viewers, regardless of the time of year. But I also think it's going to be harder at this time of year to pull people in even if they are doing lots of good stuff.

This year is a more extreme example of what typically plays out every fall. It's just not a good time of year for WWE at all. I expect that business will pick up in January as it always does when the Royal Rumble/Wrestlemania hype kicks in.

Fairly or not, it seems like Dusty gets more credit for the successes of national-era JCP than Jim Jr. does. I can sort of see it because even at times that the booking was fantastic, they weren't great at promoting themselves, especially not in comparison to Vince McMahon, who was peerless anyway. Vince played dirty against JCP and Clash of the Champions was Crockett's only successful retaliation, but even that backfired. I think the decline of JCP is an interesting topic and if anything, Dusty has taken too much of the blame. He burned out and when they acquired additional time slots with the UWF buyout, he was doing way too much booking for one guy. Crockett really should have had a support system in place to give Dusty time away to recharge for a few months here and there, even if most of the job was just to maintain the status quo until Dusty returned. Guys like Jarrett and Watts were more aware of the potential for booker burnout and did a better job cycling them in and out.

Do we know if Jerry Jarrett made money from ads or if it all went to WMC-5? But yes, I agree that he's a slam dunk HOFer. He's not in because people are bitter about payoffs.