Loss

It was already waning, but it seems like 2005 marked a turning point in Joshi interest with AJW and GAEA folding. I know some of you have continued to follow the scene during that time, so I wanted to ask what you would consider the best Joshi from 2006-2014? (I'll use that as a stopping point since we've had a few advocates for 2015 Joshi on the board.) Putting it in tiers would be super helpful. Something like this: Tier 1 - All-time classics Tier 2 - Very good-great matches but not quite MOTYC-level Tier 3 - Solid-good matches Tier 4 - Worth watching for other reasons

@prowresonly @TheEmilJay doesn't post here but he views wrestling in a way that fits in with how a lot of us view it.

Is there a place for comments on the ballot? Are there times you would have liked to have elaborated next to your picks?

Has anyone from the world of roller derby ever been proposed for the WON HOF?

I'd trade out the Full Sail crowd for either an 80s AJW crowd at Korakuen Hall or any of the 70s Mid Atlantic arena crowds, but otherwise, I'm with you all the way. I'm not sure about the WWE production team, though. It always seemed so saccharine. But I don't really have a better alternative either -- it's hard to think of really good *pro wrestling* production values, probably because it's antithetical to good wrestling in many ways.

Is there anything remarkably good or bad about Survivor Series 2004?

I respectfully disagree. Different people can get over for different reasons. It's always good when they have people around that can do it all, but they miss out on some opportunities by insisting that everyone they have needs to be able to both work and talk.

They haven't given Christian a shot most likely because Vince McMahon hates his face.

How about No Way Out 2003, which has HHH-Scott Steiner and Hogan-Rock rematches that I'm not sure I've ever heard a single person on the planet discuss. There's also Armageddon 2003, where HHH regained the title from Goldberg and Shawn and Batista had a completely forgettable match.

Being consistently put in a top position and delivering in the ring more often than not there I think is the only criteria we can use for modern candidates, with merchandise sales being a bonus, although all we have there is very non-specific info with no context, so I don't think that should be weighed too much.

Wrestling is full of doctors who can diagnose as good as anyone but can't treat the disease for shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydyFhIjdRlU Pretty solid heel promo too.

It's very cool that you are so accessible and accommodating when you don't have to be. Kudos.

The story of Hogan's career is one of a guy who had huge rises and devastating falls. Lying on Arsenio Hall sent the WWF (and as a result, the entire wrestling business) into a tailspin that they didn't really fully recover from until the rise of Steve Austin in the late 90s. In the case of raping and pillaging WCW, wrestling still hasn't fully recovered from that one, and likely never will be as healthy as it was then.

I think it's also a false binary. Hogan insisted on creative decisions that were part of WCW's decline. Hogan never should have been given that power in the first place. Both of those things are true.

Hogan was absolutely a factor, but he had a level of creative control in his contract that would stifle anyone trying to run the company without figuring him in as the top star. And 1998 was the year to start moving on from him as the number one guy, especially when Goldberg fell in their lap, but that was the year they signed him to a new deal with all the same perks. Good on Hogan for negotiating that, but I'm not sure people realize that in doing so, WCW ostensibly gave Hogan full control of the creative direction of the company as long as he worked there.

The Or-TRON!

One thing that I've heard Dave talk about many times is that the Japanese companies have a tendency to copy American angles, especially the bad ones for whatever reason. The first time I heard him mention this was in 2000 when Aja Kong did something in ARSION to copy the Vince Russo-Hulk Hogan thing at Bash at the Beach. But I'm guessing there are other examples of that.

Seriously, that Baba quote is a treasure trove of discussion. What is the source of it?

The thing is: every single thing you're listing, from the lack of legally-available tapes to the lack of foreign wrestling on television to the language barrier to being in a bubble: all that stuff applies just as well to American wrestlers watching Japanese stuff. Yet clearly they managed to do exactly that, a lot. "Watching Japanese tapes" was the most popular thing for young wrestlers in the late 90s to do together. Why would it work so differently in the other direction? Aside from available pipelines drying up, one of the reasons Baba stopped sending young boys over on learning excursions is (and this is an almost-exact quote) "there's nothing more that can be learned in the US." Think about it. And we've rattled off HOW many U.S. stars who didn't know what was going on in Japan? Flair probably doesn't know anybody in the post-Jumbo era in AJPW. Bret Hart in his own book seemed completely unaware that the poor Tiger Mask imitator he dumped on would go on to become a legend. Jim Cornette used to dismiss the Thrillseekers trying to incorporate "Japanese shit" into their SMW matches. Who is "they" in "they managed to do exactly that"? Obviously it was some people, but it sure wasn't everyone. Who was the Japanese equivalent to Dave Meltzer or even Herb Kunze, relentlessly reviewing and pimping American matches to Japanese fans? Holy cow, does this post touch on at least a half dozen things that I'd love to start threads for, because I think they warrant full discussion on their own. I'll try to spread them out.

They have a handful of great matches, but I think the best way to describe them is that they were very good at everything except being interesting.

I don't think it's worth getting worked up about either, but I think the key difference is that I can't think of a territory where the headbutt was the most protected move. Anyway, JvK's take on the Hawk is interesting, because Dusty and Crockett always saw him as the guy with the greatest singles potential of the two, in large part because Animal had a problem doing jobs.

Jason Collins vs Corey Hollis Here we go, Round 2! The crowd is on Hollis's case so he decides to go with it and turns up the heel stuff in a great way. So maybe he has already found his way. I love Hollis making Collins put a chinlock on himself, and I like how they repeated the eye poke to give Hollis another win. This was really good, especially considering how short it was. Hollis was the asshole I knew he could be after watching the first match. ***

Anthony Henry vs Joey Lynch I like both that this was added and the reason given for this being added. People either are more pumped up on Night 2 or the building is micd better. Announcers also touch on Jimmy Rave's shoulder injury and getting rear-ended earlier in the day. Is that work, storyline or a combination? I like this match, but some of the moves were a little too indy innovative for my tastes. Henry is a freak of nature, though. I love that weird hold he did that I can't even describe. If you watched the match, you know the one. It's also hard for me to be too critical of a match with a bridge up and where the announcer references Kerry Von Erich beating Ric Flair for the NWA World Title when a backslide is used.

He has only pulled it off successfully once -- with Austin and Rock -- but he's been trying to create a #1 and #1A babyface for ages. Hogan was going to be 1A for Warrior. Bret for various guys to differing degrees. Now he wants Cena to be that for Reigns. I wouldn't call it a hallmark of his booking style, but it's a recurring pipe dream.