Loss

They called it an Iron Man match because Lita told HHH that calling it an Iron Woman match would be demeaning.

Yes, is that one online?

Not that I disagree with you, but I'm curious about your thoughts on Memphis promotional music videos. I love those! Those don't bug me because they don't intersperse the original video like they're trying to make me think Kurt Cobain and Stevie Richards are pals that hang out.

I have an idea for a new project I want to start in 2016. I want to use the coming week of 10/11-10/17 to test it out and see how it works out in practice so that come January 1, I can hit the ground running. It's called Wrestling 365! If you're like me, you find yourself often wanting to watch wrestling, but feel overwhelmed and do not know where to start, so you never pass go. Well, hopefully this will work for anyone. I know I'm someone who needs variety and this definitely provides that. Anyway, here's how it works. Each day, I want to watch as many matches as I have time to watch from that day in history. So for example, on January 1, I'll watch as many January 1 matches as I can find. On January 2, I'll do the same. And so on. Life happens so if I don't get to watch wrestling one day, I'll just have to catch the matches from the day on Round 2 in 2017. The following year, I'll watch any matches I didn't get to each day, along with anything that warrants a rewatch for whatever reason. Anything where we don't have an exact date can be watched in a more open time period. So if all we know is that a match happened in October, I'll watch it at some point in October. And if all I know is the year (if even that), I'll watch it anytime I have no matches and a little extra time. Here are the matches I have in queue for the coming week. I've been working on lists for a while, but I am really only prepped to catch everything so far through the end of 1987. So I'll list some stuff after that, but I may miss some things. Let me know anything I should add to each day's playlist. And of course, anyone who can point me to more stuff to watch from these dates or who wants to join me is more than welcome. The Match Discussion Archive can be used to post on all of the matches. October 11 Johnny Kwango vs Dave Freeman (Joint Promotions 10/11/75) Mark Rocco vs Steve Grey (Joint Promotions 10/11/78) Mighty Inoue & Higo Hamaguchi vs John Quinn & Randy Rose (IWE 10/11/80) Pete Roberts vs Skull Murphy (Joint Promotions 10/11/82) Ric Flair vs David Von Erich (WCCW 10/11/82) Ric Flair vs Butch Reed (Houston Wrestling 10/11/85) Ted DiBiase vs Bob Sweetan (Houston Wrestling 10/11/85-Taped Fist Match) Ricky Morton vs Ole Anderson (JCP 10/11/86) British Bulldogs vs Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake (WWF 10/11/86) Jumping Bomb Angels vs Devil Masami & Yukari Ohmori (AJW 10/11/87) Akira Maeda vs Nobuhiko Takada (UWF 10/11/88) Doug Furnas & Dan Kroffat vs Kenta Kobashi & Joe Malenko (AJPW 10/11/89) Jumbo Tsuruta vs Genichiro Tenryu (AJPW 10/11/89) Kenta Kobashi vs Takao Omori (NOAH 10/11/00) Kawada/Ishikari vs Sasaki/Nakajima (AJPW 10/11/04) Shinsuke Nakamura vs Hirooki Goto (NJPW 10/11/10) Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi vs Kota Ibushi & Kenny Omega (NJPW 10/11/10) October 12 Jose Lothario & Al Madril vs Checkmate & Magic Dragon (WCCW 10/12/82) The Assassin vs Butch Reed & Ken Raper (CWA 10/12/83) Chavo & Hector Guerrero vs Fantastics (Houston Wrestling 10/12/84) Tully Blanchard vs Sam Houston (JCP 10/12/85) Hulk Hogan vs King Kong Bundy (WWF 10/12/85) Jerry Lawler vs Rick Martel (CWA 10/12/85) Jerry Lawler & Bill Dundee vs Tom Pritchard & Pat Rose (CWA 10/12/85) Terry Funk vs Junkyard Dog (WWF 10/12/85) Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts vs Terry Taylor & Ted DiBiase (UWF 10/12/86-Country Whipping Match) Mitsuharu Misawa & Yoshinari Ogawa vs Shinjiro Otani & Takao Omori (NOAH 10/12/01) Satoshi Kojima & Taiyo Kea vs Genichiro Tenryu & Nobutaka Araya (AJPW 10/12/02) KENTA & Takashi Sugiura vs Yoshinobu Kanemaru & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi (NOAH 10/12/02) Shinjiro Otani vs Shinsuke Nakamura (NJPW 10/12/09) Masa Chono, Keiji Muto & Kenta Kobashi vs Jun Akiyama, Satoshi Kojima & Manabu Nakanishi (NJPW 10/12/09) Chris Hero vs KENTA (ROH 10/12/09) October 13 Lou Thesz vs Rikidozan (JWA 10/13/57) Bruno Sammartino vs Superstar Graham (WWWF 10/13/75) Dynamite Kid vs Tony Scarlo (Joint Promotions 10/13/77) Hulk Hogan vs Big John Studd (WWF 10/13/84) Sgt. Slaughter & Junkyard Dog vs Iron Sheik & Nikolai Volkoff (WWF 10/13/84) British Bulldogs vs Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake (WWF 10/13/85) Hulk Hogan vs Randy Savage (WWF 10/13/85) Ted DiBiase vs Bob Sweetan (Mid South 10/13/85) Samoa Joe vs Chris Hero (IWA Mid South 10/13/05) Jun Kasai, Mens Teioh & Saburo Inematsu vs BADBOY Hido, Jaki Numazawa & Takashi Sasaki (BJW 10/13/06-Fluorescent Light Tubes Death Match) Jun Akiyama vs Naomichi Marufuji (NOAH 10/13/06) Yoshihiro Takayama & Tahuma Sano vs KENTA & Akitoshi Saito (NOAH 10/13/06) Masato Tanaka vs Yuji Nagata (NJPW 10/13/08) KENTA vs Bryan Danielson (NOAH 10/13/08) Masaaki Mochizuki vs Akira Tozawa (Dragon Gate 10/13/11) Yujiro Takahashi vs Tomohiro Ishii (NJPW 10/13/14) October 14 Antonio Inoki & Seiji Sakaguchi vs Lou Thesz & Karl Gotch (NJPW 10/14/73) Dick Murdoch vs Butch Reed (Mid South 10/14/85) Jumbo Tsuruta, Great Kabuki & Kenta Kobashi vs Genichiro Tenryu, Toshiaki Kawada & Samson Fuyuki (AJPW 10/14/89) Hulk Hogan vs Ted DiBiase (WWF 10/14/89) Manabu Nakanishi vs Bob Sapp (NJPW 10/14/02) Perro Aguayo Jr., Mr. Aguila, Halloween & Damian 666 vs Pierroth, Apolo Dantes, Mascara Ano 2000 & Universo 2000 (CMLL 10/14/05) Bryan Danielson vs Austin Aries (ROH 10/14/05) Chavo Guerrero vs Evan Bourne (WWECW 10/14/08) Goldust & Cody Rhodes vs The Shield (WWE 10/14/13) Katsuyori Shibata vs Tomohiro Ishii (NJPW 10/14/13) Kazushi Sakuraba vs Yuji Nagata (NJPW 10/14/13) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Kazuchika Okada (NJPW 10/14/13) October 15 Johnny Weaver & Jay Youngblood vs Swede Hanson & Chris Tolos (JCP 10/15/78) Jim Cornette vs JJ Dillon (JCP 10/15/88-Cage Match) Manami Toyota & Kayo Noumi vs Kaoru Ito & Miko Wakizawa (AJW 10/15/00) Magnum Tokyo & Milano Collection AT vs CIMA & JUN (Toryumon 10/15/03) CM Punk vs Homicide (ROH 10/15/04) Generation Next vs Jimmy Jacobs & Second City Saints (ROH 10/15/04) L.A. Park vs El Dandy (ENESMA 10/15/04) Bryan Danielson vs Steve Corino (ROH 10/15/05) Hiroyoshi Tenzan & Shinya Makabe vs Hiroshi Tanahashi & Yuji Nagata (NJPW 10/15/06) Kenta Kobashi, Jun Akiyama, Akira Taue & Tamon Honda vs Takashi Sugiura, Takeshi Rikio, Mohammed Yone & Taniguchi (NOAH 10/15/09) Luke Gallows vs Jake Davis (EPWA 10/15/11) Sheamus vs Wade Barrett (WWE 10/15/12) October 16 Johnny Weaver & George Becker vs Rip Hawk & Swede Hanson (JCP 10/16/71) Harley Race vs Ricky Steamboat (JCP 10/16/78) Ric Flair vs Carlos Colon (WWC 10/16/82) Chris Benoit vs The Zodiac (Stampede 10/16/87) Hiroshi Hase, Brian Pillman & Bruce Hart vs Makhan Singh, Great Gama & Jerry Morrow (Stampede 10/16/87) Johnny Smith vs Vietcong Express #2 (Stampede 10/16/87) Owen Hart vs Jason The Terrible (Stampede 10/16/87) Islanders vs Rick Martel & Tito Santana (WWF 10/16/87) KENTA, Naomichi Marufuji & Yoshinari Ogawa vs Mike Modest, Donovan Morgan & Richard Slinger (NOAH 10/16/01) Jun Akiyama, Akitoshi Saito & Yoshinobu Kanemaru vs Shinjiro Otani, Takao Omori & Satoru Asako (NOAH 10/16/01) AJ Styles vs Syxx-Pac (TNA 10/16/02) CM Punk vs AJ Styles (ROH 10/16/03) Xavier vs Homicide vs John Walters vs Mark Briscoe (ROH 10/16/03) Samoa Joe vs Jay Briscoe (ROH 10/16/03) Alex Shelley vs Jimmy Jacobs (ROH 10/16/04) CM Punk vs Samoa Joe (ROH 10/16/04) October 17 Chris Adams vs Dave Finlay (ASW 10/17/81) Ric Flair vs Ole Anderson (JCP 10/17/81) Buddy Rose & Mike Masters vs Matt Borne & Steve Regal (PNW 10/17/81) Jerry Lawler vs Chic Donovan (CWA 10/17/81) Stan Lane vs Robert Gibson / Koko Ware vs Rick Gibson (CWA 10/17/81) Jimmy Snuka vs Don Muraco (WWF 10/17/83-Cage Match) Buddy Roberts & Terry Gordy vs Kerry Von Erich & Johnny Mantell (WCCW 10/17/83) David Von Erich vs Kamala (WCCW 10/17/83) Dennis Condrey vs Wahoo McDaniel (AWA 10/17/87) Blue Panther & Sergio El Hermoso vs Super Astro & Solar (WWA 10/17/87) Michael Hayes vs Samoan Swat Team (WCCW 10/17/88-Cage Match) Aja Kong vs Mariko Yoshida (ARSION 10/17/00) Shinjiro Otani vs Kentaro Shiga (NOAH 10/17/01) Mitsuharu Misawa & Yoshinari Ogawa vs Jun Akiyama & Akitoshi Saito (NOAH 10/17/01) Kenta Kobashi & Kentaro Shiga vs Jun Akiyama & Yoshinobu Kanemaru (NOAH 10/17/02) Mistico & Volador Jr. vs Ebola & Anthrax (CMLL 10/17/04-Mask vs Hair) Chigusa Nagayo vs Devil Masami (GAEA 10/17/04) Kensuke Sasaki vs Yuji Nagata (NJPW 10/17/04) Los Oficiales vs Rey Cometa, Pegasso & Freelance (IWRG 10/17/08)

To me, I think focusing too much on current pop culture comes off really lame. When ECW would do those videos of Raven's Nest to "Smells Like Teen Spirit" with wrestling footage mixed in with the video, it made me roll my eyes because it seemed like a desperate attempt to latch on to what's cool. I do think if you're going to have a musical act perform or have a guest celebrity on the show, it does need to be someone relevant. But I don't think the framework in which announcers work should only be current knowledge.

I know it's known that the new guy is different, but is the older guy's past known?

The roundtables were taped for 24/7 and just repurposed for the Network. 24/7 was an AWESOME service by the way.

I don't know enough about how fans think in Mexico to know the answer to this, but it is known by most fans that it's the same guy? Do they try to hide that he used to be Mistico? Is he presented as a newcomer or as the former Mistico/Sin Cara?

Oh come on, the issue was talking about Flair in a thread set up for comments about a podcast about Flair. There are plenty of other places on the board to talk Flair. Lots of martyrs around here lately, sheesh.

I didn't plan to post in this thread, but I felt like I needed to respond to this. Fairly ranking Bock and Flair as it was posed in The Microscope is a different prospect than where to rank them on a GWE list. That thread was not presented as "Based on what you've seen, who do you prefer watching?" It was phrased as "Who's better?" I see those as two vastly different questions. Some don't, and that's fine. Some agree with me, and that's fine. But in my mind, the latter question requires a little more leg work to make the case, and it's not something I personally would feel comfortable doing unless I felt like the two wrestlers were on a level playing field -- not in terms of available footage volume but in terms of seeing them tested in similar scenarios over a similar period of time with similar opponents. My point was that not that Flair footage is more plentiful than Bock footage, so it's not a fair comparison. My point was that most people have seen a limited, favorable, skewed sample of Bockwinkel and I think it's misguided to make comparisons to the totality of Ric Flair's career based on that. It's why I really struggle with the idea of ranking wrestlers and why ranking matches comes much easier to me -- I don't think I'd ever quite be satisfied with any list I made, while I can watch a match and immediately figure out what I think of it in comparison to other matches. I say that not to discourage people from turning in ballots. GWE has been a fun, fruitful project and it has served to introduce people to new wrestling, which is always a good thing. I think the process is more rewarding than seeing everyone's ballot anyway -- your extended viewing projects are one really cool example of that in practice. But regardless of what anyone else is doing, anyone who wants to turn a ballot should simply turn in a ballot. As for the other points: (1) There are probably only about 10 guys that posted here regularly in the New Millenium Blues days that still post here regularly today. Not among those are some of the more active and visible people on the board -- Childs, soup23, Jerry von Kramer, Matt D, dawho5, Johnny Sorrow, Grimmas and a host of others. If you feel like there's disinterest in new voices, I can't tell you that's wrong, and I'm sorry you feel that way. All I can say is that it's not intentional and I regret that it's what anyone thinks. (2) We're going to debate methodology, and I think that's fair game. What purpose does a list serve if we're not allowed to debate those things? I don't see it as an issue of integrity being called into question, and it's not an attempt at consensus building so that everyone can consider wrestlers the same way. This is a wrestling message board. We respect the subject matter enough to treat it seriously, but that doesn't mean we're deathly serious about what one's wrestling opinions say about their character. (The answer in most cases is "nothing", by the way.) (3) I respond to every request I get to sign up for the board. I usually admittedly do a clean sweep of the mailbox to create accounts every few weeks and I admit that I should be more on top of that. The problem with accounts created through the actual board function is that most of them are spam and there is no way to tell the difference between a real account and a spam account on the surface. I wish there was a way to address that problem as much as anyone.

JBL was dropping more and more outdated references for a while, generally believed to be trolling Dave, then Dave started enjoying him.

I agree. My favorite absurd "dated reference" Dave criticism was criticizing Nash for referencing Lee Harvey Oswald.

Heenan talking about Loni Anderson as a real beauty in the mid 90s was great.

They liked Sable because she did what she was asked without questioning it, which is funny considering what came later. Sunny was problematic because she understood wrestling and when she was asked to do something that didn't make sense, she challenged it. She wasn't very easy to work with much of the time because she pushed back when she was given material that she thought was dumb or wrong for her. Add in the drug problems and that she was kind of a lightning rod for drama (think about it -- she had carnal relations with both Shawn *and* Bret), and there you go.

Too big of a focus on moves to get a pop in the moment, not enough on playing to the crowd, telling a story, effective transitions, long-term selling, etc. That's the common critique.

Yes, but we're some pretty strange cats to be the target audience, although if they're going to do it, a York Foundation nostalgia act would be nice, please and thank you.

Yes. They had to because of Americans With Disabilities Act regulations.

Along the lines of my previous comment on the broomstick formula, it reminds me of something Sean Waltman once said about Flair -- he always called the matches with Sting and Luger and told them what to do, but never told them why they were doing it. His theory on the reason was that because that way, they would always need him. I don't really know what I think of that or even if that's something as fans we should care about either way, but it's a very interesting theory.

In fairness, I think they are referring more to someone like Terry Gordy than Nikita Koloff -- someone who has lots to contribute to a match, but gets boxed into a broomstick match. Gordy is always the example cited, but I've also seen it said for people like Terry Taylor and Butch Reed. In other words, I think the criticism is that Flair treats some guys like broomsticks that aren't broomsticks.

Do you remember the post-RAW Flair celebration they did in 2003? (Not "Leave The Memories Alone" in 2008, the one before it. It's on the first Flair DVD that sold so well.) It's fascinating to watch because if you pay close attention, HHH is literally directing traffic to get people out of the ring so they don't ruin *his* big "I love Ric Flair" moment. Once you see it, you can't un-see it.

Yeah, this. Get ready for years of HHH and Steph as the loving father figure / wrestling creators. The day Vince steps down (=becomes senile and/or dies) the stock will probably plunge because large corporate investors will dump it, hope that everybody else follows suit, and then pick it back up on the cheap and act like an "activist investor" to try to shake down the company's board and/or to create a sale to a large conglomerate. The only way that HHH and Stephanie will retain power is to prove that their audience love them and that they have created their own unique brand from scratch, their own visionary creation (forget about how much of that is true or not, just how credible the story is to a man in a suit and a tie). Somebody already tried to do this months ago when the stock plunged but their network numbers grew thanks to promotional tricks and right now (because of Netflix) they can keep the stock growing on future returns, not current returns or classic stock valuation metrics. The careful presentation of HHH and Stephanie's image reminds me a lot of how WWE tried to remake Vince as the lovable announcer dad post-steroid trial and pre-Mr. McMahon, with the more casual clothing and frequent video packages of WWE's good deeds. Only this time, they are trying to get HHH over to a new and different audience, which means he's always wearing suits and he gets all public credit for NXT.

If you can find stuff to praise on bad shows, we can find stuff to bitch about on great shows. It's only fair.

That makes her even more like Cena.

It's not the wanting it, it's the yammering on about it, and in real time at that. And for wrestling, it's a relatively new phenomenon. We used to criticize wrestling for ignoring its history too much, but in retrospect, that was a much better approach. I now long for the days when Demolition could become the longest-reigning WWF tag team champions of all time and the announcers wouldn't even mention it because everything was about right here and right now (as opposed to Then, Now, Forever), as much as it bugged me at the time.

They seem to be course-correcting with Paige, or at least they were a few weeks ago, where she was the same in both places. Overly neurotic Natalya would be an outstanding wrestling character.