Loss

DDP promotes an appearance on QVC. He loves to go after quasi-celebrities threatening to join the NWO.

Rick Steiner gets interrupted by CHUCKY via Turnertron and they end up arguing. HORRIBLE. Rick seems to think he's a real person.

One of Bischoff's stooges tips him off that the Horsemen are in the building. He goes on the search for them. Bischoff goes outside and spots a limo arriving and demands that security get Flair out of here. But the Horsemen have Bruce MacArthur with them, who insists they can come in. Bischoff screams repeatedly that he has a lease. Bischoff is great at saying it so many times that it becomes a running gag. Benoit pulls out his lame "Talk to the hand" line. I HAVE A LEASE. I HAVE A LEASE.

Hogan is always more over in Chicago than anywhere. He has talked to Bret and they've agreed to do the tag match.

Sting wants a piece of both Hogan and Bret tonight. Warrior comes out and asks if he can team with Sting in his Warrior way. Chicago fans don't like Warrior at all.

I liked Gilbert-Cactus from March 1990 too, but I was the outlier there.

I personally feel like all the tools and understanding in the world are great, but mean little if they can't be channeled into something that's enjoyable to watch. Wrestlers are sometimes robbed of opportunities for reasons beyond their control, but I feel like a GOAT poll should reflect what wrestlers were able to do with their talent, not what they had the tools to do and might have accomplished in theory. That's why I lean more toward the great match metric, with the full understanding that it's a flawed approach and that it doesn't tell the whole story, nor is figuring out who the better wrestler is between two wrestlers a math problem where he with the highest number of ****1/2 matches wins. You have to look at what each guy brought to those heralded matches, and sometimes his matches that aren't as good are a better showcase of his abilities. For example, Sting's best matches were the series with Vader, but I think his match with Goldberg on Nitro in '98 is a much better reflection on him as a worker, even though as a match it can't touch anything in the Vader-Sting series.

They also closed caption everything, which I recall reading has been the cause of many delays.

Here is a good primer for the more fast-paced, athletic style that resembles most of the more acclaimed matches in the 1990s. Yumi Ogura vs Kazue Nagahori - 3/20/86 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKb5RRby9gI

Here are some of the other heralded matches of the time period: Crush Girls vs Jumping Bomb Angels - 3/20/86 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qOh0wKwX8w&index=1&list=PLC635042010AD1015 Jaguar Yokota vs La Galactica - 2/27/85 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnvjhOW_06c Lioness Asuka vs Chigusa Nagayo - 2/26/87 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-LQAS64XvY

If you need to calm yourself down immediately after watching that pair of matches, I'd recommend watching these two matches from a show six days prior to the first hair match. For years, only an edited version of Lioness Asuka vs Jaguar Yokota even existed on tape, but what we had of it made it look like a GOAT contender. The full match was released on Classics in 2003 and it was at best the second best match on the card, with Chigusa Nagayo vs Devil Masami being a MOTD contender. Both matches are worth watching though. Jaguar had kind of a cold personality (I don't mean that in a bad way, that was just her gimmick) and was seen as the workrate queen of the 80s. Devil Masami is an interesting figure and is one of the 80s wrestlers who did the best job of staying relevant in the 90s when she jumped to JWP where there was no silly retirement at 25 rule. She may have become a better worker in the 90s than she was in the 80s, although she doesn't have a match in the 90s at this level. Lioness Asuka vs Jaguar Yokota - 8/22/85 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfCUM3bUZIU Chigusa Nagayo vs Devil Masami - 8/22/85 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuoBP8KcY_o

I also wanted to make the point that if you care about referees enforcing rules, you'll have to set that aside when watching Joshi. They don't. It's rare that you see a DQ, and technically, everything is at the referee's discretion. So weapon shots and outside interference are sort of common.

To the more avid fans who have seen more things, please note that I am trying to craft a path that will help people ease into the style more than I am coming up with a list of the best matches. Chances are your favorite matches will get some play at some point, but I think there is value in watching stuff in a certain order so that the excess that is sometimes there isn't a turn-off. Please also note that while I've put a lot of thought into the match selections, in the interest of sharing stuff, I'm not really trying to make a well-written post. I'm just trying to hit on the key points. Anyway ... I've been thinking about this for a few days and here's what I've come up with as what I think is a good starting point. When you guys have worked your way through this, I can come up with a new batch of things to watch. I want to start with the 80s. While others are probably better qualified to give a history lesson, what I can tell you is that AJW was marketed to school girls. Dave Meltzer was really the first Western hardcore fan to appreciate what they were doing and praise their matches. As a result, he stood out like a sore thumb when he attended AJW shows when touring Japan in the 80s. Stan Hansen didn't even see what they were doing as wrestling. Because they were being marketed to school girls, many of the wrestlers cut their hair short in an attempt to reduce their sex appeal to an older audience. AJW had three famous rules for their talent - no booze, no men and retirement at twenty-five. I know the retirement at 25 might be a sticking point with those of you like Matt, who prefer the nuance in wrestling that sometimes only comes from experience. The good news is that many wrestlers found a second career of sorts as the scene expanded, but we'll get into that later. The top stars of the 80s were Lioness Asuka and Chigusa Nagayo, collectively known as the Crush Girls. Chigusa was the bigger star of the two. They were also pop stars at the time and would often sing during shows. This was modeled after the Beauty Pair, a successful duo who took on a similar role in the 1970s. Every year, the Crush Girls faced off in a battle of the Crush Girls, but they were primarily a team, usually taking on Dump Matsumoto and her cronies. Dump was the template for an AJW heel. She did things that would blow my mind the first time I saw her, like countering a side headlock by pulling a pair of scissors out of her kneepad and cutting her opponent's hair until she let go of the hold. Bull Nakano, who was later the ace of AJW, was one of her first standout proteges, and sometimes gave off the vibe of a second lieutenant who was a little too invested in the cause. The dynamic they were going for was that the Crush Girls were fighting off the proverbial schoolyard bullies. There is probably an argument that Dump Matsumoto is the greatest heel of all time. The WWF did show interest in her at times in the 1980s, and Dave always thought she had potential to get over huge. Here are the two biggest Chigusa-Dump matches worth checking out. Both are hair matches, with the 8/85 one possibly being the most emotionally exhausting match in wrestling history, to the point I've heard some people call it uncomfortable. I am a little conflicted over starting with these matches when I said I wanted to ease you guys into the style, but I'm less versed in 80s wrestling than 90s wrestling, where I'll have more lead-ins to recommend. Others may have some good stuff to suggest watching before these matches. Know that not all Joshi is quite like this. This is in some ways the pinnacle of what makes the style unique, at least in the 80s. But I'll share some common mat-based matches, high-flying matches, grudge matches wrestled more "straight", etc. after I hear what you think of this. I think there's something poetic about Dump getting her head shaved, in the sense that she has already rejected the social conventions related to how women are supposed to look, so it's not as devastating to her as it is to Chigusa. And I do think that's part of what they are trying to convey. Once you're able to pick yourselves up off the floor, let me know and we can transition to some much "calmer" matches. Chigusa Nagayo vs Dump Matsumoto - 8/28/85 (This just links to Part 1 - follow links for the rest) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G-Cv_HjSmw&list=PL9963200B5922D4F8&index=1 Chigusa Nagayo vs Dump Matsumoto - 11/7/86 (Same as the previous match - Just Part 1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOp-KWG3fh8

Main eventers get more opportunities to have memorable matches. That's pro wrestling. I'm good with not counting drawing as a factor, but I think it's a mistake to not take context into account at all (not that I think anyone is really implying that we should ignore all context). And I still place a premium on epics. Not every great match is an epic and not every epic is a great match, but I think the guys who can wrestle big and be great at it are the best ever. If you disagree, fine. Hash it out in the threads about the wrestlers and make the case there. Matt, I feel like I've heard you make the argument about what wrestlers do over time many times, and even though I don't totally agree with that, I respect the point of view. But I'd like for you to take that philosophy to the threads in defense of or in criticism of specific wrestlers instead of just debating the philosophy itself. We're polar opposites on that (actually, we have more in common than I probably think sometimes, but the things we see differently we very much see differently).

Dustin has primarily worked in an era where pulp TV matches that are meant to be disposable have become commonplace. He peaked early in 90s WCW which had too much television. He peaked late in 10s WWE which has too much television. So he's the master of the good match to fill television time. I think there's an argument that he's the most consistent TV match wrestler of the past quarter century, which sounds like hyperbole until you really think about it. The knock on him would be that there's no classic 30-minute world title match epic on his resume, but it's hard for me to come down too hard on him for that because he's never been asked to fill that role at all. Still, I think it's a feather that the other contenders will likely have in their cap that he won't.

Great worker. It's going to take some time for me to figure out my placement of him because I feel like I need a better grasp of how good he was compared to his peers in the same early 80s timeframe. An incredibly talented guy who I know I will rank, that's not a question. The question is where to rank him - I need to figure out from 1980-1984 how he compares to Fujinami, Flair, Funk, Hansen, Lawler, Bockwinkel, Jumbo, Choshu and so on to figure out where he'll fall. Tremendous on the mat. The skill of his opponent is nearly a non-factor in how good his matches are, and I'm not sure how many guys I can truthfully say that for in wrestling history.

Great wrestler. Will thinks I don't like him, but I think you can be critical of something and still like it. My biggest issue with Lawler is that I don't like his instincts as a heel because he doesn't really have a mean streak. He usually just takes the full coward route and plays hide the foreign object, which feels more like a midcarder gimmick than a world champion top heel gimmick. As a babyface, I enjoy him immensely. I'm not a fan of wrestlers cutting promos mid-match.

This is an artistic list so I don't feel the need to throw Hogan a bone. He definitely has some good matches in his career, but he was put in a position to do so on so many occasions that it's only natural he would sometimes. You can credit him almost singlehandedly for creating the dilemma we have for discussing matches that are financially successful but are crap. That's not to say every big match he has had has been crap - far from it. But I think he's the antithesis of what this poll is supposed to represent, which is why I won't vote for him.

Not necessarily voting for each of these guys but just trying to get threads started for a good cross-section of people. Matches listed below are all covered in the appropriate month/year folder of the Match Discussion Archive section of this board, with plenty more of their matches in every case that aren't listed here. Shinya Hashimoto: vs Keiji Muto 8/15/95 vs Riki Choshu 1/4/97 vs Genichiro Tenryu 2/17/94 Bobby Eaton: vs Ric Flair 1/7/90 w/Lane vs Rock & Roll Express 2/25/90 w/Lane vs Pillman/Zenk 3/9/90 Riki Choshu: vs Keiji Muto 5/24/90 vs Shinya Hashimoto 11/1/90 vs Shinya Hashimoto 8/4/96 Ricky Morton: vs Ric Flair 3/24/90 vs Robert Gibson 7/14/91 vs Al Snow 4/8/95 El Satanico: vs El Dandy 10/26/90 vs El Dandy 12/14/90 vs Jerry Estrada 3/23/90 Yoshiaki Fujiwara: vs Akira Maeda 2/9/90 vs Nobuhiko Takada 2/27/90 vs Nobuhiko Takada 10/25/90 Nobuhiko Takada: vs Kiyoshi Tamura 2/14/93 vs Vader 8/18/94 vs Genichiro Tenryu 12/13/96 Atsushi Onita: vs Tarzan Goto 2/27/91 vs Terry Funk 5/5/93 vs Genichiro Tenryu 5/5/94 Akira Taue: vs Toshiaki Kawada 1/15/91 vs Stan Hansen 6/5/92 vs Mitsuharu Misawa 2/28/93 Masa Fuchi: vs Tsuyoshi Kikuchi 7/12/90 w/Kawada vs Misawa/Akiyama 7/19/93 w/Jumbo & Taue vs Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi 4/20/91 El Dandy: vs Javier Llanes 2/24/94 vs Black Warrior 10/15/96 vs Angel Azteca 6/1/90 Manami Toyota: vs Yumiko Hotta 9/3/95 vs Dynamite Kansai 12/4/95 vs Sakie Hasegawa 3/20/96 Tsuyoshi Kikuchi: w/Kawada vs Can-Ams 2/22/92 w/Kobashi vs Can-Ams 5/25/92 vs Fuchi 7/12/90 Sean Waltman: vs Bret Hart 7/11/94 vs Jerry Lynn 5/17/91 vs Sabu 4/17/93 Naoki Sano: vs Jushin Liger 1/31/90 vs Yoji Anjoh 7/18/93 vs Yoji Anjoh 7/95 Keiji Muto: vs Masa Chono 8/11/91 vs Arn Anderson 1/6/90 vs Nobuhiko Takada 10/9/95 Masa Chono: w/Muto vs Hase/Sasaki 11/1/90 vs Hashimoto 3/1/92 vs Hiroshi Hase 8/93 Hiroshi Hase: vs Great Muta 9/14/90 vs Great Muta 12/14/92 vs Shinya Hashimoto 12/13/94 Kensuke Sasaki: vs Shinya Hashimoto 1/4/95 vs Toshiaki Kawada 10/9/00 vs Kenta Kobashi 7/18/05 Barry Windham: vs Brian Pillman 5/19/91 vs Steven Regal 4/18/93 vs Steve Austin 6/13/92 Arn Anderson: vs Ricky Steamboat 3/28/92 vs Dustin Rhodes 1/4/92 w/Larry Zbyszko vs Steamboat/Rhodes 11/19/91 Brian Pillman: w/Zenk vs MX 5/19/90 vs Flair 2/17/90 vs Liger 2/29/92 Larry Zbyszko: vs Masa Saito 2/10/90 vs Steven Regal 5/28/94 vs Eric Bischoff 12/29/97 Randy Savage: vs Ultimate Warrior 3/24/91 vs Ric Flair 4/5/92 vs Ultimate Warrior 8/29/92 Jeff Jarrett: vs Billy Joe Travis 1/26/90 w/Travis vs Falcone/Torres 7/4/90 vs Eddie Gilbert 12/29/90 Undertaker: vs Ultimate Warrior 7/1/91 vs Bret Hart 1/31/92 vs Yokozuna 1/22/94 Fuerza Guerrera: vs Octagon 11/1/91 vs Octagon 1/31/92 vs Santo 6/7/90 Dustin Rhodes: vs Arn Anderson 1/4/92 vs Vader 11/16/94 vs Bunkhouse Buck 4/17/94 Rick Rude: vs Ricky Steamboat 2/29/92 vs Ricky Steamboat 6/20/92 vs Masa Chono 8/12/92 Vader: vs Ric Flair 12/27/93 vs Antonio Inoki 1/4/96 vs Shawn Michaels 8/18/96 Blue Panther: vs El Mariachi 10/30/94 vs Atlantis 8/11/91 vs Atlantis 12/5/97 Kiyoshi Tamura: vs Tsuyoshi Kohsaka 6/27/98 vs Nobuhiko Takada 2/14/93 vs Volk Han 1/22/97 Volk Han: vs Kiyoshi Tamura 9/25/96 vs Kiyoshi Tamura 1/22/97 vs Tsuyoshi Kohsaka 5/28/98 Bull Nakano: vs Aja Kong 4/25/92 vs Aja Kong 11/26/92 vs Devil Masami 4/18/93 Megumi Kudo: vs Aja Kong 12/6/93 w/Combat Toyoda vs Toyota/Yamada 5/5/93 vs Shinobu Kandori 1/5/97 Shinobu Kandori: vs Akira Hokuto 4/2/93 vs Akira Hokuto 12/6/93 w/Hokuto vs Bull/Aja 3/27/94 Great Sasuke: vs El Samurai 4/16/94 vs Jushin Liger 4/16/94 vs Wild Pegasus 4/16/94 Taka Michinoku: vs Great Sasuke 7/6/97 vs Great Sasuke 10/10/97 10-man tag 10/10/96 Dick Togo: 10-man tag 10/10/96 vs Antonio Honda 1/30/11 vs Jushin Liger 6/17/96 Eddie Gilbert: vs Jerry Lawler 11/9/90 vs Terry Funk 1/23/93 vs Jeff Jarrett 12/29/90

I need an understanding of why WWE would even need a third party distributor.

The first big match for Kobashi and Akiyama as a team. It makes sense that Kawada and Taue - the most seasoned team in All Japan - is dominant for most of this. While this is technically great, a lot of it is also retread. We've seen Akiyama as the junior partner against Kawada and Taue where he has to be bailed out before. Even though this is a fresh match, the only truly fresh thing about it is seeing Kobashi as a team leader, which is a fairly new dynamic from him, outside of time with Americans like Johnny Ace and The Patriot. And Kobashi does a very good job in that role, despite his reputation for never quite getting comfortable there. He does all the right things in terms of making saves and setting up scenarios where Akiyama has a chance of getting a pinfall. The problem is that this has all been done before. Akiyama has grown since 1998, but in this match, he's still Akiyama in 1996. So this is technically great, but doesn't break new ground. There's nothing wrong with that, but it had the potential to be so much better than that.

From my understanding, in real time, DVDVR was really the only group of American fans that weren't shitting on Ogawa's push when it was happening.

I love Kawada. Such a smart worker. While the Albright match in '95 is far from his best match, I think it's the best example of Kawada's greatness because he's doing something out of the norm that other top guys in All Japan either wouldn't have thought to do or cared enough to do. He's not a guy that lets many opportunities to do interesting things slide. I'd definitely have him behind Misawa, but Kawada vs Kobashi is a real toss-up for me.

The more I watch of him, Terry Funk is someone I don't get. Definitely a great worker, but I don't think he's a clear top tier pick. He deserves credit for reinventing himself multiple times to stay relevant, but the spaghetti-legged selling and the flailing himself over the guardrail to jaw jack with ringside fans just never works for me. I need to watch more 70s and 80s stuff, because I'm saying all of this about a guy based on observations while he's in his 40s and 50s. I think his best quality is that he's a very earnest wrestler. He really commits himself to everything he's doing and you never get the impression that he thinks he's above his material (even when he is).

Hansen is another guy I'm considering for number one. I need to see a lot of his acclaimed stateside stuff, which will be a major difference maker for me. If his best US stuff (that includes Puerto Rico) is as good as Flair's best Japan stuff, comparing the two of them becomes interesting, because I think a side-by-side comparison of Hansen's output in Japan to Flair's in the US is a wash. He never had a rival like Steamboat, although Kobashi comes close if you look at their matches over time. It's the '93 match that has always gotten the most love, but they were having great matches (MOTYC level or just below) as early as 1991 and as late as 1996.