khawk20

For those that have seen the Vachon Anthology, your impressions of Mad Dog based on that would serve this thread well. Vachon is a guy that we have at least some footage of in each era he wrestled in, from the 50's right through to his retirement match in 1986. I've noted these matches from the Anthology because they are the ones either complete or near-complete: Maurice Vachon vs. Larry Moquin (Montreal, early 50s.) 11:12 Maurice Vachon vs. Zuma(5-12-57, Texas, clips) 3:12 Mad Dog Vachon (AWA Champion) vs. Paul Caruso (AWA TV 1966) 3:18 Mad Dog Vachon (AWA Champion) vs. Danny Plechas (AWA TV 6-1-66) 5:07 The Vachon Brothers (AWA Tag Team Champions) vs. Kenny Jay & Santiago Acosta (2/3 falls, AWA TV 1970) 12:03 The story of Mad Dog's infamous cut on AWA TV during a brawl with The Crusher. Includes the clip from the Vachon Brothers match vs. Edouard Carpentier & Kirk on January 17, 1970) 4:00 Mad Dog Vachon vs.Jean Ferre(Montreal, 1972) 10:51 Edouard Carpentier (Grand Prix Champion) vs. Mad Dog Vachon (2/3 falls, Montreal, 1973) 12:54 Mad Dog Vachon & Tokyo Joe vs. Bobby Bold Eagle & Billy Red Cloud (Grand Prix TV, 1974) 8:34 Mad Dog Vachon & Dale Lewis vs. Jos & Paul Leduc (Florida, 1974 film) Mad Dog Vachon & Ripper Collins vs. The Samoans (Hawaii, 1977, film) Mad Dog Vachon vs. Gypsy Joe (Japan, March 1977 film) Mad Dog Vachon & Gypsy Joe vs. Mighty Inoue & Great Kusatsu (Japan, March 27, 1977, film) Mad Dog Vachon & Baron Von Raschke vs. Jerry Blackwell & Sheik Kaissie (March 13th, 1983, Raw Footage).(16:27) Mad Dog Vachon vs. Jerry Blackwell (Death Match, May 22nd, 1983, Bloomington, MN) Mad Dog Vachon & Hulk Hogan vs. Ken Patera & Jesse Ventura (January 16th, 1983, St. Paul.) Nick Bockwinkel (AWA Champion) vs. Mad Dog Vachon (November 24, 1983, St. Paul, Raw Footage). (15:25) Nick Bockwinkel (AWA Champion) vs. Mad Dog Vachon (December 25th, 1983, St. Paul). (13:00) Mad Dog Vachon and Jos Leduc vs. Man Mountain Moore & Sheik Ali (October 13th, 1986, Trois Riveres Quebec--retirement match) I don't know how many of these are available on youtube (I suspect most of them). There are many more clips from his time in the AWA, Grand Prix Montreal, Japan, and the WWF. It's never a technical showcase with Maurice and as such I highly recommend seeking out some Mad Dog interview footage as well. His manner and interview style were very effective and frightening. Whether you liked him or not, he always left an impression on you.

I wish there was more available of his MId-Atlantic run circa 79-80, to we could see him in matches against a wider variety of opponents. Everybody needs to see the dropkick he laid on Tito Santana if nothing else.

Only guessing, but losses to the Conquistadors may have been a test for the Rockers to see if they would "play nice" this time around after their ill-fated cup of coffee with the WWF the year prior. A reasonable guess, true or not.

It might also enhance the idea that some wrestlers were more versatile than others because they could perform well in both settings, which might make the difference in how you rank folks.

I disagree from my vantage point as a fan at the time because I'd previously experienced their AWA run and in my mind they were naturally higher on the list as that. At the very least, they were always in the mix as a team that could beat anyone established or lose to anyone established depending on the day. The Conquistadors were the lowest level of "regular" tag teams in the WWF in my mind for their entire run. The result of a Conquistadors vs. whatever-other-established-team in a match on a major card was always a foregone conclusion to me before the bell rang. Never had that vibe with the Rockers because of how much I had previously viewed them in the AWA. All depends on where you pick up viewing wrestlers as a single or a team, I suppose.

I'm having a hard time processing the Rockers losing to the Conquistadors under any circumstance unless they were on their way out of the area.

FWIW if there are any other AWA guys someone wants to make an argument for and video needs to be circulated, I can probably help out with that too. I have samplers of a guy like Leon White, for example, and Col. DeBeers (if Wiskoski gets any love in this thing). Vachon, of course, if he gets into the conversation. Adonis (both with Ventura and as a single), Blackwell 80-85, Slaughter as SD II, plenty more. My preference would be to send out a block of stuff to one person and have them pass it around to whoever needs it (chain mail, similar to the review process for the 80's sets). I'll leave that up to you guys to figure it out if it comes to that. For now, a Bock list is a good starting point.

Bock was 53 in 1987. Makes his performances that year even more impressive, IMO. For as much as Bock was the high-end AWA mainstay for a large part of his career, he did travel around to defend the title more than any AWA Champ before him. Not a ton of it is available on video (I'd kill for a tape of some of is Georgia defenses, for example), but there is a body of work there that should somewhat offset that concern.

Might take a bit but I'll get a list of 70's matches up here, no problem. I'll also be happy to put together a sampler set if necessary that potential voters can circulate amongst themselves if some of what is listed is not readily available on the youtubes.

I started watching before I remember doing so (72-73), and my first wrestling memories are from the later half of the 70's, so the 80's were like a peak watching time for me. What happened to wrestling after 1984 was something I didn't like much at the time, and by the time the AWA faded out of existence I was losing my taste for it a bit (combined with life in general getting a lot busier). Then Ultimate Warrior-Papa Shango happened, and I stopped watching completely for a few years. The Monday Night Wars saw me reinvest like I was when I was younger, but the fade/destruction of WCW reminded me a lot of the AWA going down the tubes by the end, and watching it happen all over again (combined with ECW sliding into oblivion) brought me back to being a much more casual watcher of the product. That hasn't changed much except for the brief spurts when something catches fire. I do like to read about what's going on and keep up with it in print. I don't know if "inferior" is the right word to use, but I had more time to get into wrestling and the other stuff I watched in the 80's that I didn't have in the 90's and beyond, and that gave the earlier era an advantage which later wrestling viewing could never compete with. The 70's and 80's were a product presented in a way that attracted me to watch it in the first place. Anything that can only compete by hoping to hold your attention (like 90's wrestling and beyond, for me) is doomed to be looked at as inferior at the end of the day.

Now I'm frightened

I don't think it aired but a win over the Rougeaus seems like a sketchy result to me, unless the Ray was on his way out or something or it was a DQ/COR or something like that, which doesn't seem like a good result for an opener. I'd like to know how Honky beat Savage, too. I assume COR/DQ, I don't believe Honky ever pinned him.

I hate those misses. They happen a lot less now because we're more aware stuff can go away at any time now, but everyone that grabs stuff probably has a head-slapping moment when something disappeared on them at some point before they got it.

Weird Davis would make that mistake, unless (a) he dubbed the commentary in afterwards or ( it was such a common entrance statement/phrasing from him that he said it without thinking.

Pretty sure this is it though it isn't dated. The other one up there is dated. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqIHV0m29FU&list=UUWXxP_rvXryBPpjIw7Dl9Tg EDIT: The commentary says this one is from the ampitheater. So is the other one. Those are the only two I can see listed. Colour me confused.

Mr. Davis has proven to be quite polarizing in the initial commentary I've seenacross the boards on this footage. Most of the comments until now have revolved around people wanting to get in a time machine and go back in time to punch him in the face because of his commentary on these gems. It's not like Davis is a new, unheard voice, but it is new that there is a specific body of work everyone is checking out at the same time, which is concentrating the reactions here and elsewhere.

I've known Jim online for well over a decade. Great guy all around. I'll miss him.

Jose: I had to ask Steve Yohe about the Carpentier-Gagne match myself. He figures that the decision was changed after the film runs out since it went into the record books as a "no contest", but the video leaves off with Verne being proclaimed World Champion.

Verne vs. Carpentier has people going pretty nuts. Carpentier is billed as the World Champion, and Verne beats him for the title. There is a Thesz-Rogers match up there apparently from Wrigley Field on June 21, 1950 as well. Ken Viewer on Classics noted that a year ago all 200+ hours they had converted could be had on dvd for around $14000. That give syou an idea on how much some folks were playing for a match or two on dvd before now. All I can say is "wow".

If whoever putting that up is getting it right from the Chicago Film Archives, he is paying a lot of money for each match. Without clicking on any of it yet, I assume commentary is all in English? Many of those matches also appeared on the Encyclopedia of Pro Wrestling discs put out in Japan several years ago. Very nice to see it all in one place like that.

Just a thought/comment... I've always thought that the 80's project would culminate in the top ten (or whatever number is deemed acceptable) from every completed region thrown onto a set (along with a pre-determined amount of "wildcard" picks to add matches from each reason cutoff with a top ten slotting for automatic entry) with the same voting criteria as the regular 80's set, which would take care of the Greatest Matches of the 80's portion of a project like this. That, of course, should it ever come to pass, is eons away, but the 80's projects that are completed should serve as a good nomination center for matches from that era for the purposes of what you are proposing. A good starting point in that regard would be a simple re-listing of the voting totals in each completed region. If nothing else it's potentially a baseline for people to start watching.

This concerns me a bit in that this seems like it will invariably exclude some wrestlers deserving of consideration.