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The reason I like the second one is that we have the three singles matches being touched on in it. It does come down to Piper-o-Rama, but that's okay since it's his "last MSG appearance". But you get the form of what the match is about. With Hogan... while... he sucks attention unto himself. And HTM really isn't paired up with anyone in that. I get that he eventually takes the belt off Steamer, and feuds with Savage... but it's really a slapped together thing. I was think more along the lines of if we treat the feud in a way to extract a modern TV/PPV feud series. That just didn't happen back in 1986: you had SNME, angles on TV, just 1 PPV in the year at Mania, and the house shows. No one saw the Toronto match other than the folks who were there, unless it aired on Primetime... and stuff like that didn't very often. So you just saw the PPV, SNME, tv angles, and the house shows near you. In addition, we don't have a full "cycle" of Savage-Steamer matches at any one arena like we do Hogan-Orndorff (Philly) or Hogan-Savage (MSG) or Savage-Tito (MSG, with the extension into the tag team blow off). We have three matches in Philly, but they don't have the blow off (Mania). So we're left to cobble together what might work as an arc of the feud, pieces things together. In a modern sense: 1st PPV: 11/01/86 Boston Nothing resolved, except that Steamer has Savage's number and demands another title shot after the screwjob. Raw match: 11/22/86 Superstars Steamer has Savage's number again, and Macho goes batshit in the Injury Angle Match and feud kicks it up. 2nd PPV: 02/15/87 Toronto Steamer out for Revenge Match and we get blood! But he doesn't get the title! He demand another title shot. SmackDown match: 02/23/87 MSG: Elimination Match That is pretty much a SmackDown type match: Send the guys over there to work 20+ to build up the PPV in the last "go home" show of the cycle. It's Piper's "farewell" match on Television, etc. 3rd PPV: 03/29/87 WrestleMania: Title Change Put it on Mania. Steamboat wins the title. There is no need for a 4th PPV match as Savage and Steamboat can go onto other things. If-if-if we had a Cage match, we could toss that on as "Raw blow off match" as you could have Savage start the cycle after Mania talking about how he was screwed out of the title by Animal, and watch a rematch where no one can get involved. Raw has had cage matches in the past, and of course had blood for a number of year (like Austin-Angle)... so put this on in the middle of the cycle, loads of blood, Steamer wins, feud over. Again, if we're completist... one can put everything on a comp. If one is trying to get across the story of the feud... tend to think these work. It's their best three matches, along with the Angle Match (which frankly is a heck of a base of a match before the angle), and the fun Elimination match. 5 matches.

Here's what I've got: 0. 12/7/85 Boston 1. 7/27/86 Toronto I'm not super high on either. The 7/27/86 isn't really "feud" period as they weren't programed together yet. Just one of a few random matches tossed out while Steamer is still programed with Jake. So it's pretty much 0 and 0.1. The reason I like this: A. 11/01/86 Boston: Pre-Injury B. 11/22/86 Superstars: Injury Angle Match (taped 10/28/86) Is that: * this is the point where they're programed together Jake-Steamer was blown off on the 10/04/86 SNME (taped 09/13/86). Ricky spends October farting around: a couple of matches with Savage, but more against Herc, and as many with other guys. Here's what Steamboat was up to after the Jake feud was blown off on TV: 10/03 vs Savage (Chicago) 10/19 vs Orton sub for Race (Hershey) 10/21 vs Orton (Columbus) 10/22 vs Race (Tampa) 10/23 vs Race (Miami) 10/25 vs Savage (Detroit) 10/26 vs Race (Toronto) 10/27 vs Herc (London) 10/31 vs Herc (Providence) You might think that Ricky got Savage in the "big cities" in October, but Savage worked with Steele (Boston, Toronto), Honkytonk Man (Pittsburgh, Meadowlands, Landover, Philly), Bravo (Montreal) and Jake (Milwaukee) in more big cities in October. He also worked with Piper, JYD and Pedro Morales in the month. Sure, we're missing some dates from both. But October was a month when they were wrapping up their prior feuds (Jake-Steamer and Savage-Steele), while mixing and matching opponents. Things changed as we moved to November: 11/01 vs Savage (Boston) 11/02 vs Sika (Springfield) 11/03 vs Orton (Long Island) 11/04 vs Savage (Fresno) 11/05 vs Savage (Portland) 11/06 vs Savage (Oakland) 11/08 vs Savage (Philadelphia) 11/09 vs Savage (East Rutherford) 11/13 vs Savage (Madison) 11/14 vs Race (Davenport) 11/15 vs Orndorff (Milwaukee) 11/16 vs Savage (Columbus) 11/17 vs Savage (Warren) 11/18 vs Savage (Altoona) 11/22 Angle with Savage (Superstars) They were craming in the first phase of the feud at this point, prior to the injury angle airing. So that's why I tend to treat the "feud" starting in this time frame: either the 11/1 Boston match or the 11/8 Philly match as a represenatative of how they worked the feud prior to the Injury Angle. The Philly match isn't bad, but I think the Boston match is a good, tight match where they laid things out well. And then Ricky is off the road. * it shows a match where Steamer has Macho's number, and Macho has to dodge to get out of town with his title. It makes him "snapping" after Ricky "again" controls him We see it in the Steamboat having the upper edge in the 11/1 match, and again in the Injury angle. And Savage just snaps. I wouldn't argue these. I left the storyline stuff out. If one puts the feud together, one would grab most of the stuff. Yep. This then flips the earlier matches where Ricky had the control, and Macho snapped. Here we have Steamer out for revenge, taking it to him... and losing his head which costs him. At Mania we'd see Ricky going back to what gave him the upper hand early in the feud. I treat that as a numbered match: it's the only time they brought the feud to MSG, and clearly helps build the heat for all three of those singles matches at Mania. Fun match as well. Yep. It's solid enough, and much like all their other matches, is worthwhile if one is trying to get every match they worked together. But it doesn't add much, even with Ricky defending. Mania is the climax, and the only way to go post-climax were the cage matches. Since none exist... eh. :/ There isn't 7/26/87 match. There's a 7/28/87 card in Toronto, but neither are on it. I'm not sure what other match might be out there. They had two additional Philly matches beyond the one I mentioned above: 1/10/87 and 2/14/87. They're short and don't add anything that the 2/87 Toronto match doesn't have as a bridge between the Injury Angle and Mania. Not sure if something else is out there. John

There were some strange numbers, and I can't figure out where they got pulled from. I mean... maybe Korakuen got remodeled and made smaller at some point, but it sure as heck didn't look like it possible could have been when I was in it (1995 & 1996) which wasn't far removed from the 80s. What the heck would people think when you go from 3000 sell outs to 2100 sellouts? Strange.

I think if they came to the WCW in 1989 they would have been terrific. Though... there were probably too many tag teams in the promotion at that time, it's still a place where they would have been excellent. They could have used their version of Cornette to manage them.

Not on tape: http://sportsandwrestling.mywowbb.com/forum2/11512-1.html 1966 06/10 Sydney, Australia Harley Race beat Nick Bockwinkel 1969 10/23 Amarillo, TX Harley Race draw Nick Bockwinkel(45:00) They teamed in the 1984 Tag League. I'm a bit surprised that Baba never booked a match between the two, but could guess that there may have been NWA-AWA reasons for that.

I like this one as well. Kind of a shockingly fun match. It's interesting that Choshu had much more entertaining matches with Bob (1984) and Rick Martel (1985) than he did with Flair (1985) in that era. John

Cool idea.

SWS was also classic about working numbers, and the NJPW & AJPW fans (in Japan) would take delight in busting their balls over it.

At least until a few years ago the official numbers were often complete fantasy numbers and totally unreliable. And the whole "No Vacancy", "Super No Vacancy", "Super No Vacancy Full House" scale is just plain and simply stupid. This is true. Stuart has long admitted to being an "advocate" for NJPW. Not a good data source.

It's a nice bio sans analysis. I know there's a summary, but when you point to "five domes" and don't look at them with any thought (Choshu retirement for starters), then it really isn't analysis. Sasaki will eventually get in. His "success" is a list of stuff, and it's easier to grasp a list of titles and cards that it looks like he drew on than it is to wade into the depth. John

That's a good match, though the full version shows the stuff cut out was pretty so-so. I thought the 11/01/86 in Boston was tighter, they really had their stuff worked out, and they laid out their best "Pre-Injury" match (i.e. one that happened before the TV Angle aired). I thought that was more solid than Toronto-level gripping: I think we all wish one of their cage matches was saved on tape. I like this as a good set of keeper matches for their feud: A. 11/01/86 Boston: Pre-Injury B. 11/22/86 Superstars: Injury Angle Match (taped 10/28/86) C. 02/15/87 Toronto: Revenge Match D. 02/23/87 MSG: Elimination Match F. 03/29/87 WrestleMania: Title Change With just the cage match blow off missing. It's a great feud. Even their matches that don't hit a high level tend to be solid... with perhaps the exception of the quicky Philly match.

Without looking and going strictly off a faint memory, I am assuming those main evented certain markets. Yep on Slaughter-Sheik. Not sure about Slaughter-Patterson since it was post title for Pat, and Sarge after his feuds with Bob and Bruno.

I thought the question was about "wrestlers", not "pro wrestlers". If it's "pro wrestlers", Tyson would have beat the shit out of Hogan in 1989 if you put them in an MMA fight.

He never was in the middle of leg work, except at the end after the figure four (and right before Pillman's interference). That was the point: it was the typical aimless Flair attack. Arn sold the hell out of the first strike to the knee early in the match: he went down like a ton of bricks, he reached for it and writhed, kind of waited for Ric to attack it more expecting that was the point... and when Ric ignored that (for the entire rest of the match until the end)... Arn was solid enough to just go with whatever aimless shit right wanted to get up to. It wasn't a case of this in 2-3 minutes: * knee strike * chop * punch * knee attack * chop * drop the knee to the head * knee attack Where we might invent in our minds a theme of Ric breaking down various parts of Arn's body while focusing on the knee. Instead it was: * great strike to knee * wandering off to do other things without going back to knee I'm not saying Ric "has to work the knee" for it to be any good. Just pointing out that this is how Ric works a lot: it's a lot of aimless stuff tossed out rather than tied together. His psychology is just to Do Shit, then have Shit Done To Him, all of which create a string of things that Pop The Crowd. That's not exactly horrible. It pops the crowd. But it's pretty much the same thing that folks would knock for spot workers, or indy workers, or NJ Juniors for tossing out spots to pop the crowd without worrying about any of it really tying together other than giving the crowd lots of Stuff to enjoy. Which is a point that I have tried to make for several years: Ric does most of the things that we rip the "workrate wretlers" for. I'd would be interested in what would be new to you in my comments. It feels like a rehash of a lot of things that I've said over the years about Ric. I was as bored with myself in writing it as I was with the match... I'm trying to think of when the breaking point for myself as well as the match was, and I want to think it was this point: Which was sloppy as well of me since it should be: I'm watching a Ric Flair match and a Ric Flair Match has broken out since the early slap. At which point I hit "pause", banged my head against the wall, and tried to figure out if I wanted to keep watching and writing about the match. And I slagged through the rest of it. I don't always see what's being discussed in the same way as in the past. That was the point of the Warrior-Rude comment. I had an image in my head, and one that was pretty commonly held. I went into the last re-watch fully expecting to see it, and looking forward to tossing out lots of jokes about what a joke Warrior was. Instead, I was surprised by what I saw. For the life of me, I can't remember how I saw the 1994 Hansen-Taue back in 1994. I didn't pimp it in the DVDVR poll of 90s AJPW. But it certainly didn't strike me in the same way it did on the last two watchings. This match? Not so much. And that's entirely due to my current relationship with Flair. This isn't one where I'm really looking for a response. One of the reasons I buried it on the hard drive after writing it up. This doesn't add much to what I've said about Flair in the past. I don't think it's terribly relevant to anything I would want to write about Arn, and instead I'd probably seek out some of his tag work and some of that TV Title run earlier in decade to find those ***+ matches that back in the day we didn't talk about much because they weren't ****+. Those are likely to be things like Tito-Orndorff that I enjoy the simple solidness of now much more than in the 80/90s, and Arn strikes me as probably one of the stronger wrestlers in delivering that. John

The title aspect makes it touch because so many good "lesser" feuds also has a "lesser title". MX vs Fans in 1988 wasn't main event... but damn, there was the US Tag Titles. R'n'R vs MX was an iconic feuds in a series of phases, but a lot of those phases had titles. Andre vs Killer Khan wasn't for a title, but was pretty big. Wait... Slaughter-Patterson and Slaughter vs Sheik?

I've been sitting on this for a few months because it's exactly what I mean when I say "no one wants to read that". But since I was if re-watching the feud caused me to rethink the match... * * * * * The opening slaps & respect stuff don't work for me given Ric's overplaying of them. Arn is fine with good facials, but Ric... blah. This doesn't remotely fire me up like it does Loss. Arn's working the arm shoulder leading to nothing. I loved Ric's fifth of gin selling in the arm pulled, and Arn not even really working the arm puller. Then Ric's slower than slow roll up for the headlock, and slow counter into the head scissors that Ric couldn't even be bothered to work before just popping out. Awe, the great Ric Flair psychology. He transitions with a chop, so we're going to have a brawl with all that anger from Ric over how Arn hasn't shown him the proper respect so far in the match. Ric wanders around trying to figure out what to do next, with Arn kind of looking at him wondering what Ric wants to do next, than since he's not doing anything decides to get up. Ric continues to work the brawl concept with... oh... wait... he cuts Arn off with a thrust kick to the knee. Cool! Ric's going to work the knee! Arn figures that it's because he grabs the knee like's it's ACL damage just selling the fuck out of it beautifully! Ric presses the advantage by... wandering around the ring looking out at the crowd. Okay, that's just milking the crowd since they all know Ric is going to work the knee! Well... er... Arn finally had to stand up since Ric is doing nothing, but he's selling the fuck out of the knee, which Ric attacks like the ring master he is by... er... chopping him in the chest. Okay... so Arn is down selling... general damage because it's not like Ric can focus. Wait, Ric appears to be focused because he's dragging Arn up on the bad leg and forcing him back into the corner, where for sure he's going to at least stay focused on chopping the shit out of Arn, and maybe letting Arn turn him around like faces do and punch away at him... No, Ric irish whips Arn across the ring into the other corner, which Arn counters out of to back elbow the charging Ric. Knee is fine on the run across, damage is a-o-kay as well. How do we know? Arn instantly climbs the ropes to do a move, and when Ric tries to toss him off the top, Arn rakes his eyes, jumps off the top onto his gimpy knee and slaps the sleeper onto Ric. Ric backs Arn into the corner causing the sleeper to break, at which point Arn hops (I mean... Fucking Hops) up onto the turnbuckle and delivers a jumping knee off the second ropes, landing one footed on the leg with the bad knee. This is what happens when you wrestle Ric Flair. Just fucking go along with it because he Has Stuff To Do, regardless of whether his break can track from one item of Stuff to the next item of Stuff. Arn goes back to working the arm, which makes sense as Ric ignored it before and will ignore it again when it comes time for him to Get His Shit in. Arn's arm work is perfectly fine right up to the post shots and the armbreaker drop, but then it's time to doze off as he slaps on an aimless bar, doesn't work it, and Ric zones into fifth of gin selling. The ref is doing more for the hold by hopping down and trying to sell it for the two of them, but it's as interesting as the camera work that goes in a wide panning shot. Finally since it seems clear that Ric doesn't want to do anything with the hold, including sell much at all for it, Arn picks him up... well... Arn gets up, waits for Ric to get up too... looks out at the crowd... waits... Ric finally decides to get up. Hey, it's time to forget the arm work instantly. Chops and punches, toss into the corner for the Flair flop and Arn, who has never seen this before, runs into flipping himself over the ropes! I know that Loss thinks that he was coming in with a clothesline, but the arm is out for like a second quite a few steps before Arn gets to the ropes and launches himself to the floor. Not only that, but any number of babyfaces have shown the proper way of clotheslining Ric after the corner bump: run along the ropes, which Arn had plenty of time to move over to position himself to do after he released Ric towards the corner. Wait, it's better... Flair comes off the top to the floor with an axehandle which Arn turns around into, which Arn never would have thought of since Ric when flipping over the corner onto the apron never goes to the turnbuckles to try something... wait, that is what Flair does a ton. So when he's against the barricade, if Arn had two cents for a brain, before wandering away from it he'd take a quick scan to see if Ric is on any of the turnbuckles. Okay, I shouldn't get offended that the "Arn Anderson" character is a dumbass because it's not like he doesn't regularly do stupid shit in his matches over the past decade. And hey! Ric hit something off the top rope for one of his rare occasions. We should all be happy. Typical Ric getting his shit in here: stomping a mud hole, arguing with the ref, chops, drop the knee, jawing with the crowd, going for a pedestrian cover with his feet in the ropes for no reason (as in too fucking lazy to not save this for later when Arn has "pushed him to it"). I mean, do we even need Arn we're in a long stretch here where it's pretty much what Ric does / could do against any babyface opponent. This is Ric-Arn, when are we going to get some special shit in here? Fuck me... it's worse than that. Ric works a Ric Transition in the corner with his shit blocked, Arn spinning him around, and Arn whipping him into the opposite corner and Ric coming out to eat a backbody drop. I'm watching a Ric Flair Match and a Ric Flair Match has broken out since the early slap. Ric cheats on a beg off for a counter, combined it with another of his favorite transitions (Ref stopping the face so that Ric can cheap shot the face behind the ref's back). And of course the Ref yells at Ric because he knows something is going on, and of course Ric is shaking his head, NOOOOOOOO! he didn't do anything. Yep, it's a Ric Flair Match because he gets all aimless on us. He's targeting the stomach... no, tosses him outside for some dirty work... no, picks him up for a chop and a strut... no, Ric needs to make Arn look good, so he eats and eye rake and then runs into a back body drop on the floor... and since it's a Flair Match, Arn needs to be okay to quickly kick the shit out of Ric on the floor... no signs of any damage there. Look... we do have to give it up to Arn. He has no trouble working a pedestrian standard Ric Flair Match, knowing when to just go with the shit, and when to ignore selling. I'm being harsh? Ric counters and vertical suplexes Arn on the floor. My Turn, Your Turn, My Turn... Having just hit the vert on the floor, Ric goes with the eternal vert back in the ring. Except after doing it on the floor, walking around the ring, hitting a knock down punch in the ring, walking around the ring and picking up Arn, then hitting the eternal in the ring... Ric is now suddenly every bit as damaged in the ring as Arn, even more damaged then he was outside the ring when eating the backbody drop. It's pretty funny how well refreshed Ric is after the cover attempt has failed. Ric's offense has degraded to such a degree that it's chops he's using for near falls. Hey, sunset flip and Ric punches the ground. Never seen that. I'm mostly done with this thing, and I'm really still waiting for something fresh. Loss talked about the tired spots... they still are tired for me. Ric in the tree of woe? Arn choking an opponent in a tree of woe? Arn setting up the DDT right next to the ring ropes so an opponent can grab the ring ropes to hold on so that Arn can eat the bump (kind of cool the first dozen times he learned it but not just getting across that Arn is a Dumb Fuck). Ric taking the face first flop after that. Zzzzzzz... Okay, here's the capper / crapper. After "blocked DDT" and the face first flop, Ric decided that the way to attack the downed Arn is to go to the top rope. Yep... Arn gets up and tosses Ric off the top. Seriously... this is fresh? Oh fuck me... Arn goes up to the second rope to hit his patented "I'm Trying For Something-Or-Other That I Never Hit So That The Opponent Can Whack Me!" spot. Ric, who has spent all the match targeting the knee, works it over some more before slipping on the figure four. No, wait... Arn is just laying there after his patented "I'm Trying For Something-Or-Other That I Never Hit So That The Opponent Can Whack Me!" spot, so Ric wanders around to slap on the figure four with no set up. Last either of them thought about the knee in the match was 18+ minutes ago when Arn realized Ric doing one strike to it didn't mean he really wanted Arn to sell it. Alright, let's see if there's anything interesting in this... not really. I like Ric punching the knee a couple of times, but Arn reverses it right after that. From the reversal to the finish, with Pillman getting involved, are really brutal. For all of Arn's nice selling, the Magic Recovered timed just perfectly to DDT Ric after Pillman's strike are... eh. Overall, Arn is perfectly fine as a face in a Ric Flair Match. Not great, not terribly exciting, but perfectly fine in being able to hit his marks after follow whatever plot lines Ric's silly brain careens across during the match. Ric is Ric, and this match is pretty much in the wheelhouse of why I'd perfectly be fine never watching a Ric Flair Match again. I've said over the years that I didn't care for this match because it didn't bring the Hate that I wanted to see. There was a massive absence from this match of something that I wanted out of the two. After re-watching it, I can add that with what it delivered: A Ric Flair Match. I didn't, and don't, want to watch Ric and Arn work (other than the first 1-2 minutes) a Ric Match. A pretty pedestrian, past Ric's prime version of it as well. I could watch any of dozens of Ric's matches that give me that, and most better. This match back in 1995 needed more from me to consider it good. Nearly two decades later, it needs more from me to keep from boring the shit out of me in re-watch after 27+ years of watching Ric's stuff. Arn wanting to prove himself against Ric ? Eh. The concept of anyone "out wrestling" Ric was long past the freshness date, since everyone could out wrestle Ric and prove themselves against him. I need hatred there, a war, something that turned into something like the Starcade '90 street fight. It's Arn Anderson, the Enforcer as a "character". He's going to prove himself by wrestling a Ric Flair Match? That so doesn't work for me. Is it a shitty match? No. Arn is Arn, which is solid. He’s being able to go with what his opponent bring to the table and wants to do. Ric is past his prime, narrowing what he does in a less interesting fashion, but still can work in a Get His Shit In / I've Got Stuff To Do fashion that keeps things moving along. It's competent, which remains wildly disappointing in concept and pretty boring in execution. And yes... I do get the irony of that.