Coffey

I always thought Hulk Hogan would make a good WWE on-air character as a president, old school Jack Tunney style. He can't wrestle anymore, but everyone knows who Hulk Hogan is and he can sure as hell still talk. I think there's room for a lot of those guys. Jake's mind can't be used in creative, really?

Mongo was hilarious! "This place is apropos and that don't mean you're digging around in the dirt with farm implements, baby!"

They should have done that last night after the Jericho promo. Instead of going right to commercial following it, Lawler made sure to shit on it first so that was the last thing you heard instead of Jericho's first words since his return.

So if Gorilla is bad, what does that make Michael Cole? By that criteria, has WWE ever had a "good" play-by-play guy? Just Jim Ross, I guess? I liked Jesse Ventura, Bobby Heenan & JBL as color, but none of them were play-by-play. Tony Schiavone? Vince, himself? I've heard this argument before. I think Jericho brought it up in his book or something because I remember having the discussion in person with some friends of mine that are also wrestling fans. I think we all universally pretty much love any show with Gorilla/Ventura or Gorilla/Heenan as the commentary team. It's when you start putting in guys like Piper, Savage, Cole, & Lord Alfred Hayes that we shit on it.

I was watching a Legends of Wrestling Roundtable yesterday (Renegades & Outlaws) & Jim Ross said that Stan Hansen might be the best American wrestler to ever wrestle in Japan, or have the best career in Japan (something to that extent). Coming from J.R., that's pretty big praise. Especially with how tight he was with Dr. Death and knowing wrestlers like Benoit & Guerrero competed in Japan.

I like that there was actually a relevant thread talking about shit that actually happened this week for a change too.

I dunno, but I enjoyed it a lot more than the PPV last night. Dare I say I even *gasp* liked RAW!

On Sunday, December 18th, 2011 World Wrestling Entertainment (WWE) held their "Tables, Ladders & Chairs" (TLC) Pay-Per-View (PPV). At the conclusion of that evening, at the 11 o'clock hour, both C.M. Punk & Daniel Bryan were the respective World Champions in the largest professional wrestling promotion in the world. I could not care less. Today, Monday the 19th, that does not seem to be the popular opinion while browsing various wrestling related websites and message forums. So I feel I should explain my thought process. First off, yes, I did watch both C.M. Punk and American Dragon well before they showed up in WWE. I watched them in Ring of Honor, like a lot of other hardcore wrestling fans did. So I have the same correlation as a fan that so many other "smarks" seem to cling to as a talking point for this being a big moment. I have, on more than one instance already, seen various people liken this moment to when both Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit were world champions at the same time. It's not that I dislike C.M. Punk or Daniel Bryan. I always thought Punk would excel in WWE although I'm not a big fan of his as a babyface. Daniel Bryan is different. I didn't think he had a shot in WWE at all and thought he thrived in Ring of Honor (and the Indy scene as a whole). So it was a pretty surreal moment. Maybe I should feel like it is a bigger deal, as a fan, but I just can not bring myself to care and I think the reasoning is because of how complacent and paint-by-the-numbers that WWE feels. C.M. Punk going into the night was already WWE Champion. He defended his title to retain in a Tables, Ladders & Chairs match against both The Miz & Alberto Del Rio. The highlight of the match was a bump that Ricardo Rodriguez, a manager, took. Off of a ladder, to the floor, through a table, that he almost overshot. The Miz is about as nonthreatening and un-credible as a top level heel has ever been. He is a joke in every sense of the word. He is boring and bland. So is his character and his promos. He has improved his physique and even his ring work to be completely fair but when I look at him, I just don't see a star. Alberto Del Rio, on the other hand, I used to think had huge potential with a really bright future. Now when I look at him, he seems like damaged goods. It took less than a year for WWE to make him "just another guy." A guy that is constantly outshined by his manager. When Alberto Burrito talks, I can't understand him at all and I really think it hinders his character. I just think back to the classic Vince McMahon one-liner to "spic it up" and have to wonder if "Chico" (as the great Jesse Ventura would say) is over-exaggerating his accent. If so, I really think he needs to stop. Winning the Royal Rumble in January was huge for Del Rio. Then he lost in the curtain jerk of Wrestlemania to Edge & I don't feel like he has ever recovered. WWE have just made both ADR and Miz chickenshit heels that can't actually DO anything. Neither man seems like a legitimate threat to C.M. Punk at all. Not that they should, mind you, but it made the match feel boring and drawn out to me. Anti-climatic and inevitable. Even watching the match itself, the journey to the end wasn't enjoyable because Miz and Del Rio move like molasses. It was like paying $45 to watch sap run down a tree. Maybe that's just any match involving a ladder at all to be fair but I am totally off the bandwagon for both heels if I ever was on either to begin with. Mark Henry is the best booked wrestler that WWE have had in years. YEARS! A monster heel that was booked as a legitimate threat. He beat Randy Orton, clean, multiple times. He injured and put out multiple wrestlers that were perceived as legitimate threats, such as Kane and The Big Show. He was working better, talking better and even for the first time that I can remember, had some merchandise. Today, reading around, it seems as if Mark Henry was legitimately injured, so I guess that sort of validates the title drop to The Big Show but it still left a bad taste in my mouth. Mark Henry was this big, unstoppable monster not scared of anything. Then he just drops the World Title after all of that in about six minutes to a punch in a Chairs match. If Daniel Bryan was going to cash-in the Money in the Bank anyway, why not have Mark Henry beat Big Show first and then have Bryan, the babyface, pin Henry, the heel for his "big moment?" Especially since Daniel Bryan and Mark Henry have history in the past several weeks. Including a cage match main event on a live Smackdown. To be completely honest, Daniel Bryan has been treated as a fuckin' jobber pretty much during his entire WWE tenure. Yet because he had that shitty briefcase, we were supposed to never "count him out" I guess? Sure, he would tap out some scruds in matches that didn't matter. Maybe dilly-dally around in the midcard over some non-credible titles (I guess you could argue no belt is credible). But to me, the Money in the Bank briefcase is like a damn death knell at this point. It was summed up best by Cox in the Comments thread: It feels like a very heelish move to me to cash-in the Money in the Bank briefcase to "seize the opportunity" to win the World Title over a beaten down babyface by a babyface. Maybe Daniel Bryan is going to turn heel? Maybe The Big Show is going to turn heel? I don't know and I don't really care. I just know that up to this point, Henry was a heel and had a big history with babyface Bryan. Michael Cole is a (terrible) heel and has...whatever the fuck that is supposed to be with Bryan as well. So logically it would just make so much more sense for babyface Bryan to beat monster heel Henry. No turns needed, makes sense and has continuity. Whatever. I just didn't like how everything went down up to Bryan having the World Title. The rest of the PPV, I feel because of those title holders, is also being championed. However, what I saw was different than apparently what other people saw. I watched Kevin Nash and Triple H shit up the ring and even blow their finish as Nash can hardly walk. I watched the PPV have an unadvertised match featuring the 5-star ring general that is Kelly Kelly. I saw the greener than goose shit Zack Ryder win a title because he's popular on the internet. Barrett/Orton was boring. Sheamus/Swagger was boring. Booker/Cody was delayed twice for no reason and then just a straight forward paint-by-the-numbers match that didn't accomplish anything. To me, I think the highlight of the show was that John Cena was nowhere to be found. I am honestly flabbergasted by the overall positivity coming out of this show. I feel like I am out of touch. If this is the best that I can ever hope for from WWE, I don't want it. I want the show to feel different. It all feels the same. C.M. Punk was different because he was saying things we all thought. Now he's the top babyface that overcomes all odds and tells poop jokes, just like John Cena was. Spitting one-liners and catchphrases while showing off his latest WWE Shopzone merchandise. When The Rock comes back, even if it's just one show at a time, he is so much farther ahead of anyone it's unbelievable. No one in WWE feels like a star to me. Maybe it's because of the even-stevens booking. Maybe it's because of the writing, the booking, the wrestling itself...I don't know. Mark Henry felt different just because he was a bad guy that didn't always run away. Then after having a great run, he just jobs out in a clunker match and I guess we give it a pass because he was legitimately hurt? It just feels like the WWE as a whole needs some sort of life breathed into it. A new set, new entrance theme (instead of awful-ass Nickelback), something, ANYTHING. Instead, we get a "smark darling" getting a feel good moment and we're supposed to shit our pants over it and act like everything is A-OK? Why? Daniel Bryan has been awful in WWE. Not his fault as to why, mind you. He's lucky if he even makes TV most of the time. He's "feuding" with a non-wrestling play-by-play announcer. Then he just gets hotshot into a title reign and all across the internet there are smiles and "I can't believe it, oh my God!" comments. The only skepticism I see is people anticipating the worst for the future...but how we got here wasn't good either, it was terrible honestly, and instead it's like everyone completely forgot all that happened before that moment. Well I didn't, and so I thought this show was a disappointment. If that makes me the bad guy, if that puts me in the minority, if that leaves me out on the limb all by my lonesome, then I'm happy to chill there in solitude. I might be overly bitter, but the solution is not to "stop watching" or "take a break" or "not take it so seriously" or any of those other bullshit clichés that WWE apologists spew forth. The answer is for the show to not fucking suck and for people to stop having such low expectations that just an average show seems incredible to them. It's like eating dirt for a month straight then being giving a bologna sandwich and treating that son-of-a-bitch like it's a 5-star cuisine. Everything is so unbelievably micro-managed that it all comes off as unnatural as Rob Terry's physique. OAK EXPRESS. How fuckin' surreal was it to hear "Rowdy" Roddy Piper refer to fans as the "WWE Universe." UGH.

Diamond Cutters, Superkicks and Spears are all Indies seem to be lately. Especially when you get mother-fuckers like the Young Bucks in there.

Here's an interesting one: Scott Steiner I think most people would think his best stuff came from tag team work. So when you can only name five people, do you use two slots to name both members of a tag team? Do you go to some of his WCW solo stuff?

I just straight-up can not stand Dave Meltzer anymore. Like, he legit makes me angry. I was trying to listen to the Wrestling Observer Radio show today and I actually shut it off because I was getting mad just hearing him talk. I have an irrational hate for that man. My breaking point was when he was talking about the no contest after the low kick in the MMA fight. I'm done with that dude. So over him.

The Rock just did a few Armdrags, Steamboat style, at Survivor Series. You see hip tosses on pretty much every show. Same with roll-ups. Maybe not ones that win the match, and a roll-up reversal into a different roll-up is rare. Hot tags don't really exist today because WWE just takes a commercial break instead. If it's PPV, the match only gets like 8 minutes, so you can't really build to it in the first place. Grapple moves off the top that aren't a Superplex are rare (or non-existent) in WWE. When was the last time you saw something like a top rope samoan drop or belly-to-belly suplex? Only one I can think of was in a Regal Vs. Jericho match years ago.

What do you mean does anyone drop an elbow anymore? There's a lot of elbow drops. Both normal elbow drops and top rope elbow drops. Hell The Big Show did just a top rope Elbow Drop at Survivor Series. C.M. Punk does one in every match. Cris-cross spot is a lot harder to think of for me...

I figure the credibility goes out the window (for a magnitude of reasons really) because it's obvious that the performers, at the very least, know when the tests are. I don't think there's any random testing going on. That way the wrestlers using performance-enhancers can have their cycles coincide with the tests. It seems like the only time anyone pisses hot is when WWE is mad at them for something and trying to make a point.

You should see the discussion about the Wellness Policy over on DVDVR. I question Mason Ryan and how he can be legit, while Evan Bourne gets suspended for "spice" and I'm told things like this: I couldn't tell if it was a troll or not, honestly. I thought he was fucking with people. So then I mention Sin Cara, because he was suspended for steroids: Ha-Ha! There was also someone that tried to make the point that the only reason people care is because Evan Bourne is a smark favorite and Mason Ryan isn't but that doesn't have a damn thing to do with it. Sums it up, really.

I don't think it's the case here on this forum but I have always felt like Tito was underrated. Maybe his peak hit before Hulkamania took off so he missed the boat, so to speak, but he was good during his entire WWF stint in my mind. I even liked his El Matador run. Dude could just bump and sell like no other. As far as being World Champion, I don't know. It was a different era then. He sure as shit could be today, with the likes of people like The Great Khali being former champions. It almost feels like the World Heavyweight Championship now is on par with the Intercontinental Championship back then. So looking at it from that perspective, Tito then was where Mark Henry is now. I can see that. Still below John Cena/C.M. Punk and the WWE Title, just like back then he was still behind Hulk Hogan. I'll always pimp Tito Vs. Barbarian from Wrestlemania 6. Tito made Barbarian look like a monster in that match. It wasn't a long, back-and-forth exhibition or anything like that but it was memorable. Mainly for the finish.

I think it's a little bit early to take the assumption that it's a video for Jericho and run with it. It could just as easily be for The Undertaker.

I'm thirty years old and I have a crush on AJ Lee. I now use an avatar of her on both DVDVR and here. I have no shame! WWE Survivor Series was entertaining. No complaints. RAW the following night, however, not so much. Which this time of the year that is not usually a problem as I can just change the TV over to Monday Night Football. However that was the Patriots at home against the Chiefs, so it was a shit-kicking. As a whole, this is as least interested in professional wrestling as I can remember ever being. WWE, sans Survivor Series, is for the most part, just coasting. There is not an attention grabbing story; nothing enthralling to pull me in. Ring of Honor, to me, is unwatchable. So is TNA. I never got into Chikara either. I'm not a fan of Lucha and Puro has been down quality wise recently (unless there's something I'm missing, maybe Ditch can alert me to it). I have watched almost every SMASH show and although I enjoy it, I wouldn't necessarily say that it is good. It's just different, and I like Kana quite a bit. She's really talented. I want to start following you guys on Twitter, if any of you have an account there. I like hearing about pro-wrestling talk, but following actual wrestlers results in a lot of advertising and other dumb shit I don't care about that is usually not related to wrestling. So feel free to leave a comment with your Twitter URL, or post it in the "Comments" thread because I asked over there too. The more shows that I watch this year, the more content I feel voting for Dolph Ziggler for Wrestler-of-the-Year. From an in-ring perspective, from what I have seen, I think he wins it hands down. It's that stupid "drawing" part that makes it a tough sell. I am sure as Hell not going to vote for John Cena's boring ass though. I feel like this year, more so than most years, I have watched A LOT of professional wrestling, from all over the world. I need to start participating in the "projects" because that seems like a lot of fun and really appeals to me. It would be nice to "take a break" (so to speak) from current stuff. It was recommended to me as some friendly advice in a thread here (I can't remember by who, I'm sorry) and I took it heart. That's a good idea and it might help rejuvenate my interest as a fan. I hardly ever buy wrestling DVDs but I am a fan of Goodhelmet, and he has been kind to me in the past. So I'll see what I can do and what my friends are interested in. We were watching Misty's stream on Justin.TV where a lot of Mid-South & old school NWA was shown, but that doesn't appear to exist anymore. I need to get all the old AJPW early 90's classics on DVD, as VHS is a dead format. Plus, lately, I have really gotten into both "Dr. Death" Steve Williams and Stan "The Lariat" Hansen so I want some of their work, to go along with Kawada, Misawa & Kobashi, with an occasional Vader thrown in, so that's what I will be looking into. I have never liked Taue and I'm indifferent on Akiyama. Although the best tag match I have ever seen has Taue in it... For some newer Puro, are there any good Satoshi Kojima or Hiroshi Tanahashi matches?

I, too, have actually been going back & watching a lot of older Sting stuff. I was honestly shocked at how over he was. The crowds went ape-shit for that dude. I was watching an Outsiders shoot interview & they talked about "Sting money" (which was apparently $750k/year) & how it was unheard of for people to get that money in NWA/WCW. It was used as a barometer to determine how valuable someone was or something. Anyway, in the early 90's, Sting seemed pretty damn green, but he was so athletic, energetic & over that his matches, to me, are a ton of fun to watch. He got to work a lot of tremendously talented people too, like Rick Rude, The Great Muta, Ric Flair, etc. I don't think as far as ring work is concerned that Sting is every going to be in any top lists, but when you factor in how over he was & a lot of his characters/stories, he's pretty damn memorable. Look how over he was feuding against Hogan & the nWo. He didn't even have a match for like two years or something ridiculous, but when he came down from the rafters, people went bananas. Or, as Pat Patterson would say, "totally banana."

That's not a road you want to go down because it just leads to nonsense about different amount of people watching television and DVR's and all that crap. Besides, I don't think Punk meant in general, I think he more means internet fans that have been watching for years. They're not going away. Casual fans obviously come and go. Right now wrestling isn't popular, so they left. UFC got hot and they have PPV with a million buys. I remember when pro-wrestling shirts used to be sold in the mall at one time. You can't really replicate that. Through the peaks and valleys, ups and downs, the one constant seems to be the long-time fans. Granted they all, for the most part, seem to be very negative and pessimistic (at least on the internet), but they still watch and I'm sure are a big portion of the viewing audience.

Chargers/Chiefs was actually a really good game. Went into overtime even. (Good as in entertaining to watch, not high caliber football).

WWE, especially RAW IS the wrestling world. When a young boy has aspirations of becoming a professional wrestler, they're not thinking of growing up to have matches in Ring of Honor in front of ~500 fans. They're picturing the same dream that The Miz pictured. RAW is the flagship show of the biggest wrestling promotion in the world. IN THE WORLD. If you don't watch RAW, you're out of the loop. It's as simple as that. No one knows who Davey Richards is but even my 52-year-old mother knows who Hulk Hogan or Stone Cold are. Nowadays they know John Cena. Personally speaking, contrary to popular belief, I *like* being in the loop. I like talking to my friends all week about what went down. I like being able to listen to The LAW or F4W & see if we have similar opinions. I like being able to kill time throughout the week on various message forums, such as here or DVDVR, or The Board or Something Awful & compare opinions, discuss current happenings, speculate on directions things are heading in & what not. I tried not watching RAW & guess what? That sucks worse than watching it & thinking it stinks. It doesn't matter if RAW is bad. It doesn't matter if I'm mostly negative. I'm in the loop! If you don't watch RAW you know what you are? You're the guy that shits up threads as you talk about 70's territories & how shows "sound" bad because you read the spoilers. Or how "WWE is bad" despite not watching it for five years so you really don't know what the Hell you're even talking about. I've been that guy & I sucked. At least if you watch the show & are still negative your opinions have some validity. You're not completely jaded by the tone of the author for the spoilers. It's a consistent & constant stream of new discussion. Every week, every show, there's new stuff that everyone can express their opinions on. How many times can you talk about the same Jumbo matches with the same three people? Why do I not watch TNA most weeks? Because it doesn't matter if I miss it. Why do I not watch Smackdown most weeks? Because it doesn't matter if I miss it. Why do I not watch ROH? Because it doesn't matter if I miss it. Sure other factors might be involved, like a conflicting schedule or enjoyment of each different example but ultimately they all have that in common: they don't matter. If you miss RAW though? I feel a week behind everywhere I go. My circle of friends, radio shows, message forums... even Facebook or Twitter! If you're a wrestling fan, you watch RAW. Just like you watch Royal Rumble & you watch Wrestlemania. I don't know, maybe I'm the only one that feels that way but judging by things that people like C.M. Punk says, I don't think I am. It's true! I feel like a lot of internet fans today are just like the elitist music nuts that like a band until they get a record deal or a music video. Then suddenly they're too mainstream or sold out or whatever. Dare I say it started with ECW in wrestling. Everyone wants to be more underground or whatever... but you know the lyrics to those Metallica songs. Just like you can talk about Dragongate or SMASH or NWA Hollywood.. but you'll still watch Wrestlemania & you still know John Cena's catchphrases. What's more annoying, the guy that is negative every week or the guy that calls him out for being negative every week? At least the guy being negative is talking about the subject not derailing the thread or flame-baiting. I'm a Green Bay Packers NFL football fan. I have been since 1993, when I was twelve years old. They won the Super Bowl last year. They're currently undefeated this year. I still find things to complain about, despite that fact that I'm as happy as a fan can possibly be right now. So if I talk about the secondary, or the special teams or the running game in a negative light, does that mean I'm not a real fan or should stop watching their games? Of course not. And you know what, if the Packers are knocked out of the playoffs, I'll still watch the Super Bowl. Just like if John Cena is in the main event of Wrestlemania, even if I'm not a huge fan of his, I'll still watch that pay-per-view & I'll still have a right to complain about it before & after too.

I feel like I should say something since I watched the show but I'm not sure what to say. I had company over & honestly talked through the majority of the show, but the parts I watched were entertaining. The Muppets are funny. I won't argue that they're pretty much a nostalgia act for me but that is what I wanted, what I expected & what I got. The company allowed me to tune out Michael Cole for the night & that really helped my enjoyment of the show. The night seemed to me as if it was sort of booked like a show where WWE didn't think a lot of people would be watching. There were a lot of non-title matches and some stuff which wasn't particularly "fresh" if you know what I mean. like Dolph/Ryder again. I thought the Muppet segments were fine. I wasn't thinking the whole time about how it was silly, or broke kayfabe or trying to compare it to Robocop or any of that. If something wasn't particularly noteworthy to me, then I just tuned the show out, focused on my company, and let the television become background noise. I will say though that AJ looked adorable as Kitana from Mortal Kombat. That is one beautiful woman.

I actually prefer The Muppets of today to the Muppets of yesteryear. I've never liked Miss Piggy or Fozzy or Gonzo, but I fuckin' love Pepe the Shrimp & Renthro the Bear. Which is pretty much the exact opposite of WWE where I hate them now & loved them in the 80's. So I guess this doesn't apply to me. Of course the Muppets I really wanted to see weren't on the show (the two previously mentioned and the Swedish Chef) but Statler & Waldorf were, so I was happy. Coincidentally, I just heard the other day that Tylene Buck is a camwhore now. I wonder if she gets trolled by wrestling fans still? So if there's someone out there that wants to pay-per-minute to watch her past her prime stick a dildo up her ass, there ya go.

One that comes to mind for me is Macho Man going for a pinfall on Yokozuna after his big elbow in a Royal Rumble match. That was pretty dumb and led to his elimination.