JerryvonKramer

Does Shane coming back from nowhere change any of this?

Just watched this: Atsushi Onita & Tarzan Goto vs. Masanobu Kurisu & Dragon Master - Barbedwire Death Match (12/10/89) Atsushi Onita vs. Masnobu Kurisu - Barbedwire Outside the Ring Death Match (2/12/90) Atsushi Onita vs. Tarzan Goto - Barbedwire Exploding Land Mine Death Match (8/4/90) Atsushi Onita vs. Mr. Pogo - Barbedwire Exploding Land Mine Death Match (5/6/91) Atsushi Onita vs. Fumihara Asako - Barbedwire Exploding Land Mine Match (8/17/91) Atsushi Onita vs. Tarzan Goto - Barbedwire Exploding Land Mine Cage Death Match (9/23/91) Atsushi Onita & Tarzan Goto vs. Sabu & Sheik - Fire Death Match (5/6/92) Some brutal stuff. Onita is an extremely emotive worker who will score highly on intangibles. I am sure there was tears from some of the opponents here, which seemed pretty odd to me. Like uncomfortable viewing. Tarzan Goto is someone who will also likely make my 100, intense and violent performer.

The presentation of HHH and the booking of Reigns are two different things, and Dylan is right about HHH being presented consistently strongly. However, I think something like this has gone on at Titans towers: 1. Some bod in marketing has got in Vince's ear and convinced him that he has two different audiences to cater to, the hardcore crowd and the mothers and children. 2. Either Vince himself or some dude in creative, decided to TRY TO BOOK TO MULTIPLE AUDIENCES. 3. And the idea is that for one set of fans Cena and Roman are heroes, and to another set represented by John Stewart, the heroes are HHH, Daniel Bryan, AJ Styles and other such "real" wrestlers. HHH is seen as having the same legitimacy as Bryan or Styles among a certain set of fans, or so they tell themselves. And so ... 4. You get all these scenarios that make batshit zero sense to traditional booking logic, because they think they are being clever. It's something like this, On top of cold feet and indecision at different times I see this as a rational explanation.

I said "No". My belief is that his awful push is the result of Vince being caught in two minds and losing confidence in him because of crowds, but then effectively being forced to go back to him after injuries to Bryan and Cena and Rollins all forced his hand. I see a lack of conviction and faith in Roman, and indecisive reactive booking, not a political hit.

I have his match with Breaks from 7/5/77 at ****3/4 Anything else I should seek out?

I think I understand now what's going to happen. Flair being such a big friend of HHH's, comes out and advocates for him. He's going to be in HHH's corner, or something like this. OR, he declares himself neutral. But mark my words, it's going to be Cena vs. HHH to tie Flair's record with Flair involved in some way. MAYBE as a Steamboat vs. Flair tribute, they can have Flair as a judge.

There's also a meta thing were fans are pissed at WWE for giving them a shitty product. Shane has always been the defacto "good McMahon" for a lot of them, him coming back also gives them hope things can change. The fact that Shane's comeback storyline as a face is "The WWE is shit, people don't want to watch it on TV and it's losing money" is odd. The fact they want the fans to agree with Shane when he points out how dreadful the product is means they must be aware of it, but do nothing about it. Like how CM Punk went from upper-midcarder to hottest act in the company by cutting a promo about how awful the WWE is. I maintain that the fans, as in the crowds who boo Cena / Reigns etc., are just constantly being worked. Constantly. I don't know to what end, or to what direction, but I don't see how this isn't self-evident. I mean look at that stuff with John Stewart at Summerslam. He interfered EXPRESSLY to stop Cena tying for Flair's record and EXPRESSLY as a representative of the fan at home. I don't see how anyone could view it any other way. It's an obvious work and has been for years.

During his recent interview with Flair, he came across as thinking -- too much I think -- that his career was in some way comparable to Flair's. This was especially around the insecurity stuff. I thought Jericho was so conceited that he diminished both Flair's career and his anxiety issues, which are probably very real. So that soured me on him a bit. Of course, Ric is conceited too, at times (I find he's a bit too often self-deprecating also), but he's freaking Ric Flair and has every right to be.

Top 30?! Is it because people think he's had a lot of great matches? I don't get this. He was a total stiff until about 1996-7, then spent a good 5-6 years then known as the "Lazy Taker" across the internet, before settling into having a string of overwrought WWE-main event style matches of endless endless endless endless false finishes. When did the notion that Undertaker is actually a good worker come from? From this idea that he's a locker room captain? Hell in a Cell stuff? However, all that said, I'm scared to actually put him through Biglav cos he might actually make it and beat people like Butch Reed in the process ¬__________¬ I do also rate the Brock match from 10/20/02 and see that as a near-classic.

Come on now.

I've been persuaded not to rank Jericho, I think.

Just absolutely not.

Someone tell me what happened. I ended up watching Kobashi matches.

Kenta Kobashi vs. Takao Omori (4/15/00) I thought this was an awesome match with Omori targeting the leg with some pretty focused work early and then Kobashi letting him have a shit load of the bombs in his arsenal. The final lariat takes his head off. Just super duper fun and such a breezy watch. **** Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama (12/23/00) The diving knee from the top rope onto Kobashi's arm onto the railing is an awesome awesome spot. Half Nelson suplex on the ramp onto Akiyama's head is also an awesome spot. However, the match is a good twenty minutes too long. And its basically twenty minutes of excessiveness. Kobashi has a massive shiner by the end though, and that visual is pretty awesome. If this was like even 15 minutes shorter it would be the best spotfest of all time. As it is, it's just got too much bloat. Seems like 2000 AJPW gorges itself until it throws up. **** Kenta Kobashi vs. Yoshihiro Takayama (5/26/00) It's remarkable how grizzled Kobashi looks by 2000. Takayama has somewhat of a fish face. This is another really great match. More of your classic babyface getting beat down and then coming back with fire / fighting spirit. And by God Kobashi's comeback here might be my favourite one ever, even over Lawler vs. Bock in 10/25/82. The backfists were some real Guy from Final Fight shit. Incredibly hot finishing stretch. ****1/2

What about C. Vince has kept getting cold feet because of the crowd reaction and therefore the push has been muddled / lacked conviction, but then injuries forced them to go back to it?

I just love how "pro wrestling" this whole deal is, I'd probably watch every week if there was more stuff like this. I mean I'm genuinely probably going to watch Raw tonight because of just this.

This might be my favourite angle of recent times.

The boys speculating on who is going to win the Vincent J. McMahon award put such a huge smile on my face.

I'm currently in hyperdrive before GWE deadline so watching a lot more than usual. My average is probably 3-4 hours a week during regular times. More recently I'm probably up to 10-12+ Chad will tell you, however, that I'm not really up there with him, Pete and the other guys who devour footage. I cannot keep up their pace, was late with AWA and AJPW ballots, and dropped off 1990 Yearbook after 3 discs.

I didn't have a single problem last night. I also ended up watching all of the Edge and Christian show before I passed out. Mild(est) recommendation actually.

I'd certainly agree, Matt, that last night Jericho worked basically the exact opposite of a smart match. It was a hideous performance by a guy who doesn't seem to understand that he's now a veteran who can slow the pace down if he needs to. It's kinda weird to me because a few years ago I thought he'd settled into that role quite well. I think the 08-09 run Jimmy is talking about. Her description of "Mid-life crisis Jericho" strikes me as a very apt description of what I saw last night.

Enjoyed your post Elliott. Lawler won't get +10 for not travelling, he'll get +1 for carrying a promotion and then probably 10 points in variety which reflects the fact he had memorable matches with lots of different people. Variety is the advantage category for the homesteading aces. Look at Backlund.

One tiny thing I was thinking about is of the leverage on the figure 8 would actually hurt more than the figure 4.

Just to say that, despite my personal hatred for him, Shawn is definitely gonna rank for me, and AJ still has every chance of ranking too. I can see not being high on Jericho as a matter of indifference, but I was wondering more where "biggest stretch ever to call him a great worker" was coming from. He's a weird case in a way, I mean I don't have any strong feelings about him at all, but if someone put him at 40 or 60 or at 89, he wouldn't look out of place, and if someone didn't rank him at all, it would scarcely feel like it matters. The Ted / Hase comparison comes less from working style and more from the fact that both of those guys, like Jericho, had a lot of tools at their disposal, could work face or heel, could effectively slot into a main event or cycle down to work an upper midcard or tag feud, or even a match in the midcard. They were dependable and charismatic workers who would give you a solid and sometimes even great performance no matter the opponent or match. And Jericho seems like a similar guy for his generation. And as I said, this is with giving it no real thought. Szakacs reference just comes from the fact that he's one guy I'm certain you are high on. I don't know where the testiness of the tone has come from, because I had nothing of the sort in mind when I asked. Just genuinely want to know why you're so down on him. Incidentally I thought he truly sucked in the match last night, and I don't think Ted or Hase ever sucked like that in a match.