JerryvonKramer

The paradigms by which we measure wrestling today are all developments brought about by Vince.

I find the notion that the man who invented the idea of "superstars" in pro wrestling and who made the product in his own vision of rugged American individualism now deliberately doesn't want stars baffling. Just seems too bonkers to be true.

Kind of ironic when you consider that Vince brought about the paradigm of competition in wrestling in the first place.

All that stuff means nothing cos the NWA ran a monopoly at the height of its power during Dory's run and Senior ran unopposed in the North East. What does competition or the lack of it change?

The best booker in the world today is George R R Martin.

Care to elaborate? 1926, 1976, 1996, 2016, the principles of EVENT management let alone pro wrestling promotion, don't change. You can't let fans dictate booking, it's weak and flaky. And it encourages the sort of thing we've seen at the last two Rumbles.

I guess a point I was making, implicitly, was that if Vince really wanted to get Reigns over, he shouldn't have reacted to those smark fans by changing his booking. Every time Roman doesn't go over, or falls foul of a swerve finish, he's empowering those fans. I'm saying he should ignore them and press on with putting Roman over. Look at Cena, despite smark hate, he is now accepted as the top guy and one who has had lots of great matches. He has a grudging respect even from the boo boys. This brings me to another question: First thing, from what I understand Dory was kind of a tweener in 69. Whether he was booed or cheered would depend on the opponent and market. I imagine he was booed vs Wahoo but cheered vs The Sheik for example. Babyface in Amarillo but heel in Florida. Etc. The point for Muchnick wasn't so much crowd reaction but getting Dory accepted as a credible champ in every market. He was going to press ahead with that no matter what the fans did. For Bob, as far as I know, he was never rejected by fans until arguably 83 when he was in the singlet, but the point is that Billy Graham was far far more over in 77-78 and Senior ignored those fans and stuck to his guns. Let's say Bob got a lukewarm reaction in 78, theoretically, would it have stopped the program or got Senior to change the booking? No, he was pressing ahead with it no matter what, the crowd are led by him not the other way around. Smark fans, internet, blah blah, changes nothing, the company leads the direction, the promoter dictates who is going over. Vince must be getting soft or he has no faith in Roman, but whatever the case, he hasn't been booked strongly. Put him over and do it consistently. The smark fans have no choice eventually but to go along with it. Vince needs to BREAK them not pander to them. More he panders, more empowered and entitled they become.

I've never seen a good match in Southwest, regardless of who is in it, including Terry Funk, Also, I've seen more matches than just these for Orton. I've loved him for years. We just watched his 82 run on Titans, where we've talked about him as a great worker. From the AWA set, I gave him and Adonis vs Rockers from 88, 4.5 And from Crockett, I gave him and Jimmy Valiant vs. Jack and Jerry Brisco from 83, 4.5. This is fleshing out the case so I can justify ranking him.

My point in the article is that he hasn't really been booked like the top guy so what do you expect? Vince was accused of being tone deaf and not listening to fans two years ago, seems to me he's been listening to the fans quite a lot because there's no other way to account for the muddled direction on Roman. Strikes me as a lack of faith. I could be proved wrong if he just goes over HHH clean as a whistle at Mania and spends the next year defeating all comers. That is still the ONLY way to establish a truly top guy (unless he's literally Dusty or Savage or someone like that, which Roman clearly is not). Johnny, in your view, will that happen? And if not, why not?

Alright, but tell me this. In the various places this has been posted, why out of 60-odd fans who commented are you the only one to say "no actually he IS over"? The vast majority of comments are actually going into specific moments and booking decisions over the past year that further account for why he's not over. Are you the only sane person out of any of them? Are you the only person out of any of them to watch Raw? Just so happens that every single time I've seen the guy over the past year, he's been booed louder than pretty much any babyface I've ever seen, including the time Cena was booed at that ECW One Night Only thing. At two Rumbles, at Wrestlemania, and on several other shows I've happened to watch. "Yeah but one time in Baltimore, I was there, and they cheered PN News like crazy! And the most over guy on the card was Van Hammer!" It don't mean jack. You have to face the fact that he's not over like he could be.

Tremendous worker who will definitely make my list. Only a case of how high.

Bob Orton Jr. vs. Ricky Steamboat (7/20/85) This is from the Cap Centre. Monsoon and Mean Gene in the booth. Best arm drag in the business from Steamer to start. A million luchadores couldn't do it better. Tremendous chop. Kip up by Orton. Arm wrenches by Steamboat. Great ones. Drops back on the hammerlock. Absolutely phenomenal. One of the best ever. Big chop sends Orton down. Explosive shine for Ricky. Arm bar. Bodyslam. Back on the arm. Steamboat's basic game plan is very often this assault on the arm. Massive hip toss by Orton and a flying head scissors. The elevation from Steamboat on the hip toss was something to behold. Turnbuckle show by Orton. Right hook sends Steamer down. Slams the face onto the mat. Knee lift. Steamboat sells it like he's dead. Neckbreaker, but sort of like a stunner. Knee drop. Orton is so deadly, so many different offensive weapons. Steamer tries a chop and a slam, but Orton pushes his weight over to him. Basically a rock bottom from Orton. Did Bob Orton Jr invent every single 90s finisher there was? Slugfest now, big chops by Steamboat in the corner. Orton goes for a piledriver. Reversed to a back drop. The dragon flies off the top with a cross body and it's two only! Orton dump Steamer but he skins the cat. Inzaguri sends Orton over the top rope. Huge bump to the concrete. Orton goes to the eyes. Goes for a suplex to the outside, almost but revered! Goes for a splash but Orton gets his knees up! Wow. Adjusts the cast. Gene thinks it is loaded. Orton goes to the top. Nails the cast on Steamboat's neck, and it's a DQ. This is my kind of wrestling right here. 15 minutes, hot action, great wrestling moves, great bumping and selling, great execution, strong storytelling, hard work. Brilliant. ***3/4

Bon Orton Jr vs. Adrian Adonis (5/26/83) This is from Southwest and has Lou Thesz on colour, a man with a lot of love for Greco Roman wrestling, but much less love for street fighting. He is in town because this is a tournament for the undisputed world title. This is from The Summit in Houston and was the final. I believe this is JIP and so we don't get a great sense of what this match was like beyond the fact it was worked well between two greats. Adonis wins and Thesz presents him with two belts, a new undisputed title and the 75-year old original NWA title from back in the Ed "Strangler" Lewis days, who Thesz puts over a lot as his mentor on commentary. Interesting historical curiosity. Despite the fact that South West had promoted this card heavily, it drew very poorly, less than 2000 because they were running in opposition to Paul Boesch who ran his own card that night -- and as we all know Boesch was the man in Houston. Adrian would not longer after this go back to New York to tag with Murdoch, while Orton would go to Crockett for his role in the Flair - Race angle. Bob Orton Jr vs Lanny Poffo (2/23/86) From a PrimeTime. Maple Leaf Garden. Monsoon and Ventura on commentary -- surprising! Poffo's poem sucked. The look on Orton's face is hilarious, so non-plussed. Monsoon puts over Orton as a "wrestler's wrestler" which is code for "this guy's a damn good worker". Gorilla: They've used more wrestling holds in the last five minutes than I've seen YOU use in the past five years. Jesse: You know coming into Maple Leaf Garden tonight fans were asking me when you were coming out of retirement. I might just bring you out of retirement. It might end up with me and you in there! Fucking classic! This match goes 15 minutes and Orton puts Poffo away with a float over superplex. It's hardly a masterpiece, but I've talked before about the value of ring generals and super workers. You can see the evidence for that in a match like this. I watched Lanny Poffo, a guy really of limited talent and ability, look absolutely terrible recently in a match with another limited worker, Outlaw Ron Bass. Here, Orton makes Poffo look like a million bucks. He makes him look competent. Every aspect of his performance looks better because Bob Orton Jr was super duper talented. This is why I say sometimes "anti-workrate my arse" because a guy like Bob Orton Jr can take a guy like Lanny Poffo and make him credible, and someone like Ron Bass never can. This isn't directed as a shot to Matt or anyone else, it's just an explanation and a case for the value of the super worker / ring general. They can do things other people can't because ... They are better wrestlers. **1/2 Bob Orton Jr vs. Paul Orndorff (5/25/85) This is from the Spectrum. Dick Graham and Monsoon on commentary. Cappetta gone, of course, replaced by some pencil neck geek. Dick Woerhle still the ref. Is that .... Is that Super 8 I see! Titans fans please check. A lot of shine for Orndorff to start. He was pretty over in 85. Orton is a huge bumper and seller. As Johnny and Kelly both said recently, just the right side of cartoony to look great without being completely OTT. He really reminds me of Terry Funk sometimes. Does the wobbly legs. Arm wringer by Paula. Shades of Backlund here. Fireman carry by Orton into a Samoan drop. Innovative. Unravel a bit of tape from the cast and chokes Orndorff with it. Orndroff back on offense. Orton has been very stoogy here. Johnny needs to see this, Orndroff punches Woerhle clean in the face! I suppose there was a blow off after this? ** Bob Orton Jr vs. Tito Santana (7/23/84) This is from MSG for Tito's IC belt and took place on the card with "the brawl to end it all". The Fink still looks an absolute state and deserved to be bullied. Monsoon and Gene Okerlund on commentary. They both put Orton over huge. Let's see Orton in a long match against a good opponent. Arm drag into an arm bar by Tito to start. Orton bails after a hip toss reversal. Some nice counters over a wrist lock and a hammerlock. Monsoon describes the difference between an inside and an outside wrist lock. Genuinely educational. Gene agrees. Tito bridges back from the wrist lock. Fights his way back up and Orton pulls the hair back. Excellent reactions from Monsoon and Okerlund one of the great underrated commentary teams. Tito continues to work the arm. Some excellent facial selling from Orton. Orton back on top. Some great punches from Orton which Tito sells like crazy. Running powerslam by Orton. Knee into the back. Modified backbreaker from a gorilla press position. Back, back, back. Psychology kids. Cover gets two only, getting frustrated. Shot to the head. Santana comes back. Hope spot. Two more rights. Orton cuts him off with the eyes. Fisherman cradle like move from a strange position. Man Orton is incredible with the moves. Does things you never ever see. I think he made up his own moves. Reverse chinlock results in an arm drag from Tito. This Garden crowd is hot for him. Orton lands on the knees from a splash from the top. Fires up. Punches. Turnbuckle shots. Great comeback out of Tito. Cover barely gets two though. Slams his head into the mat. You can tell how much Gene is into this. Shot to the throat by Orton cuts Tito off. But Tito syncs in the abdominal stretch. Orton reverses! Back suplex by Orton. Cover gets one only! Goes for a vertical suplex. Reversed into a small package by Tito! Two only. Tito misses a flying cross body now. Fist drop by Orton. Two only. Irish whips. Bridge pin gets two for Tito. Slugfest now. Tito reverses a piledriver attempt. Both men down. Elbow drop by Orton. Oh my god. Orton goes for a second and Tito just puts his fist up and Orton's face just drops right on shit! Bell goes for a time limit draw. Slug fest breaks out after the match as Tito unloads about twenty punches on Orton. This is wild. Awesome match. Some really great chain wrestling, some hard work, innovative stuff from Orton, fire from Tito, great selling from both. One of the better matches from the WWF in the 1980s. **** Bob Orton Jr vs. Jumbo Tsuruta (4/19/75) This is the earliest match we have of Orton's on tape, 75 Champion's Carnvial. Let's see how he does against my boy here. Footage courtesy of our friend in Japan. Pretty sure Paul Boesch is sitting in the crowd. Orton's 70s hair is legit 70s. Headlock stuff to start. Beautiful headlock takeover by Orton. Jumbo struggles literally and vocally. Headlock remains applied. This works itself out. Break. Both guys go the the legs and fail with takedowns. Some good amateur credentials type stuff here. Well, you know for all the talk of Jumbo not being good on the mat, he WAS an Olympic-level amateur wrestler. Arm drag exchanges now. Big elbows by Jumbo on the back of Orton's head. Big dropkick. Swinging neckbreaker. Cover gets two. Headlock. Headlock takeover. Some neat punches back and forth. Vertical suplex by Orton. Scoop slam. Jumbo applies abdominal stretch. Back suplex by Orton. Elbow smash. Drop kick. Cover gets two. Shoulder block. High leapfrog by Jumbo. Butterfly suplex gets Jumbo the three count. Excellent example of a 15-minute AJ match in this period. Starts all technical with an amateur base, progresses through holds and counters, up through strikes to the big bombs at the end. Good match. ***

Kelly, one thing that interests me is when exactly Vince Sr consolidated all the regional markets into one big super promotion? When did he acquire Zacko and Philly? When did he move into Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Boston? I generally think it's a mistake to think of WWWF as just one territory, it was really like four or five territories rolled into one.

I do everything these days using the notepad on my iPad. I used to take hand written notes. The pause button also gets a lot of use.

Much passive-aggression in you I sense.

Pretty much, seems like he's just biding his time until he finds his new ace. I'd be really really surprised if the WM main event is just HHH vs. Reigns. Cena.

Brock

No, it's been a real real struggle to sit through late 70s cards generally.

I mean even within the 80s, there's a real rawness and rough and readiness so about things from 84 to 86. Even the Hogan matches. Sometime after Wrestlemania 3 it starts to change. And by the time we get to 1990, The Warlord has a big W on his belt, Dusty is wearing polka dots, Ultimate Warrior is the champion, and we're about to meet a character called Irwin R. Shyster. Even though we've talked about some of the darker stuff in 1991 booking, I still think some of the gritty and bloody brawls from 84-5 would have been unthinkable. I mean don't get me wrong 84-6 has its fair share of nonsense too. JYD on a water slide, TNT, Vince singing Get Back, and all the rest of it. But it's a totally different feel of nonsense. I love mid-80s nonsense AND early 90s nonsense, both of them. I don't have the "I was a teeneager and too cool for wrestling then" associations with the later period that Johnny and Will do, I love it all. But there is deffo a big difference.

I split this up a bit differently: 84-89: Rock n Wrestling era 90-93: Cartoon or "everyone has a day job" era 94-7: New Generation era 98-01: Attitude era

A rare wrestling article from me about Roman Reigns (and Dory Funk Jr and Bob Backlund): http://placetobenation.com/why-roman-reigns-isnt-over-or-a-study-in-parallels-roman-reigns-bob-backlund-and-dory-funk-jr/

Alright fair enough. For me, Jumbo's massive wake-up calls when he does stuff like smashing an opponent from the apron (which became a standard AJ spot, inherited by Misawa wholesale) and the tangible levels of electricity whenever him and Choshu would go at it, have presence. I thought 85-6 was the first time he really felt like "the Man". But y'know, opinions are what they are. Incidentally, I don't recall people being as down on Jumbo like this when the AJ 80s set was actually happening and we were all reviewing these matches together. Funny how time appears to change perception. It's interesting.

One thing that interests me in this thread is Loss's identification of Mr. Perfect in the mechanic role. When do you see him having that? 1993? Really he just seems like he was injured a lot and never really got to the point where he had that role on the roster. In my mind, I always saw Perfect as being at IC level, whereas DiBiase was at "world title" level, even in 89-91. I'm not sure where Jericho is right now or where he has been recently. I always think of him as a guy who can easily slot into a main event if required a la Dibiase. I am just interested in where on the card this guy goes? There's like the Mick Foley -- not the top guy, but someone who is perrenially in the main event mix. But then there's like your old-fashioned "carpenter" lower down on the card. Someone like Tito or Greg post-prime.