JerryvonKramer

Sad news. He was a super talented worker. I've thought for a long time that The Fantastics might have been the most exciting team of the 80s.

There's no microscope thread for him and I didn't want to start one for just one match review. Negro Casas vs. El Hijo del Santo (9/19/97) Casas's character work is great throughout this. One of the commentators here has a ridiculous nasally voice that sounds like a Spanish Mr Punch. This was really good, heated and violent. I thought Santo was going to legit break Casas's arm in the finish. Casas seems like a real super worker to me, I like the way he heels things up while also bringing violence, bumping and selling with the best of them. Santo also looked tremendous here. This was much more stiffly worked than any of the lucha I've seen before, had a grittiness to it. ****3/4

El Dandy vs. Negro Casas (7/3/92) I found the matwork here to be infinitely more engaging than in the Angel Azteca match and I think that's mostly down to the fact that Casas is a much more interesting performer than Azteca. El Dandy also seemed more somehow ... Rugged here. Like a face who was prepared to do whatever it takes. The first fall was cool. As one of the least flexible guys in history, I can appreciate how much forced splits might hurt. But they kept things moving too. The limb work was closer to what I'm used to in US wrestling and everything was logical and made sense. They weren't doing and fancy Dan shit, they were just trying to hurt each other. Second fall and the action ramped up. Some great high spots, including a swank back breaker from Dandy. Casas seems like a guy I could get into. He's been good on offense, and great at bumping and selling. Dandy's standing drop kick is cool. Missile drop kick nearfall was also great. Belly to belly from the top rope by Casas and a Randy Savage elbow drop only gets two! Another great nearfall. Crucifix powerbomb, another great nearfall! Powerbomb by Dandy, another great nearfall! And a magnificent pin by Dandy. Just at the moment I was thinking there was no way in hell I could ever get into Lucha, this match comes along. Really great match with great action and some of the best nearfalls I can remember seeing. Negro Casas looked amazing in this match, but Dandy more than brought his end too. Great stuff, match for the ages. *****

El Dandy vs. Satanico (12/14/90) On the one hand, this was a lot easier to get into than the Angel Azteca match. Who doesn't like a double juice brawl? This was heated for sure, and El Dandy showed good spirit especially after the early assault where he started bleeding profusely early. However, I wasn't feeling the hatred like others seem to. It didn't come through to me and I simply can't in good conscious rank this with those brawls I think transcend wrestling like Magnum vs Tully, Funks vs. Sheik / Abby '78, Patterson vs. Slaughter. I am closer to understanding what people are loving with this match, but I still don't think it really holds a candle to the high end brawls I've seen in American or Japanese wrestling. People were putting over the near falls in the third fall, but I didn't find myself invested in them for whatever reason. I was also, admittedly, very confused by the finish. Satanico collides with the ref who falls out of the ring. El Dandy misses a kick, and then ... Starts a chicken dance?! What the fuck was happening? Then the ref comes in and raises El Dandy's arm, for what, a DQ? Seemed totally bizarre to me, and someone will have to explain that. I did enjoy this, but I really didn't think it was one of the best matches I'd ever seen, or even close to that. ****

El Dandy vs. Angel Azteca (6/1/90) I just don't get this or the love for it. I hate to be at odds with Chad, PeteF3 and Charles, three guys I genuinely like and agree with a lot, but I didn't even LIKE this match. First two falls were very dull, all matwork, but nothing I found interesting. It was missing the wrinkles I see in 70s matwork or the struggle and intensity of Bock or Robinson. El Dandy is quite good at selling, but I thought some of Angel Azteca's limb work was actively bad. There was one point where he was pulling on El Dandy's arm and I was thinking "even allowing for wrestling logic, how in the hell am I meant to believe that hurts?" Looked pathetic. Other holds seemed improbable to me, and the backslide finish to one of the falls people were raving about looked sloppy to me. I was disappointed with El Dandy too though, he's meant to be the babyface. But I thought he lacked fire and came across as being a bit bland and lacking in charisma, kinda like young Bret Hart. The match seemed to have no feeling in it. Third fall action picked up a bit, but I didn't feel like they'd carried me through a build to those high spots, so the plancha comes off as being just choreographed. As I said, I hate being against the tide of opinion like this, but this didn't click with me at all. When I think of stuff like Bock vs. Hennig or Flair vs. Steamboat, and then I think of this, I'm legit shocked people can mention those matches in the same breath. Different strokes I guess. Heading over to 1990 forum to read over everyone's comments, but man. This is like trying to get into abstract modern art or something. **1/2

Kris, one thing you might do is go through my 1983 WWF booking thread to see if there are any guys you missed who were hireable in their database. Quite a few older guys I ran against Snuka, for example, aren't listed. The Sheik springs to mind. You can make a call as to whether or not they were realistically active in 83. Tor Kamata is another one. There are quite a few older older guys I used at some point or other who were in the database. Some of them like Waldo von Erich or Spiros Arion's were dragged out of retirement, but others seemed to be listed as active. Maybe Bruno under "retired"? Some guys, if you listed them and I've missed them apologies. I'm on my iPAd and can't figure out how to use "find" on the page. Doug Somers? Frankie Williams? Jose Luis riveria Mike Jackson Pedro Morales? Italian Stallion? George South? Also, I'm sure you know, but don't forget about Harley! Also what we doing with managers? I'd definitely want use of them in my booking.

I'm a bit confused. Is there a draft or are there fixed rosters?

I don't thnink we need more than ten people for this.

In

Superb post putting into words what I've struggled to articulate before now. Excellent stuff. Agreed 100% too with the added caveat that type [4] often makes for an irritating live crowd, but they are still essentially being worked.

You just asked me to lay out some reasoning as to what has changed over the last 50-40 years! There is no "agreeing to disagree" because I'm trying to show you why all fans in the 1970s were not the markish rubes you are trying to make them seem to be, when I've pointed out the ECW crowd as being very much akin to the old crowds you describe, and very much part of that "smark" revolution. I didn't call them markish rubes, I just said they seem more invested based on what I see on the footage and the stories you hear from the period. We've had this discussion at least four times before. I don't want to hash it all out again, especially when one side insists on pushing their argument as fact, and in the same breath tells an anecdote about their friend in school from when they were nine. You don't need a PhD in Epistemology to figure out that you're hardly dealing with concrete facts, you're making a thesis statement based on evidence. I could do it too, trawling through newspapers and wrestlers bios and observers to find accounts of riots at wrestling shows. In the end there's no point. If your intuition is to say few people ever believed you'll stick to it and find the justifications to support your view, while rejecting counter claims. And in the end, I'll stick to my view that crowds were better when they were punching along with babyfaces and ready to fight the heels, not chanting "This is awesome" or "you fucked up". I like old crowds, I generally dislike new ones especially of the indie smart fan type. I think kayfabe is the differentiator. No amount of you or Williams pointing to newspaper articles from the 1880s is going to convince me otherwise. And so there's nothing to discuss. At least not for me.

Can we go back to agree to disagree please? Thanks.

From what I've seen crowds in the 70s and 80s were louder, more lively and more emotionally invested in the product they were watching -- regardless of promotion -- than crowds we see on TV today. I also don't really hear reports of Bray Wyatt trying to escape arenas because the fans were trying to kill him. Something changed. Since you're all about the facts, you can tell me what.

Same for me. Supertape '92 was the first one I remember buying. A lot of Mooney gold on that one.

25 really? Was just looking and got to "Jacque Rogeau" and still haven't found one. Joe Malenko maybe. Who nominated Sandman?

Hey, he might be a great worker, I'm just saying he has a non-descript look. I've just googled to find a picture of the most average looking man. Apparently, this is what SCIENCE has come up with for that. Anyway, let's get back on topic.

When I was watching mid-90s WCW PPVs a few years ago I'd DREAD the inevitable long-ass Harlem Heat match, they were like the mid-90s version of The Wild Samoans or something, fucking awful. Honestly, when Chad and I get there with WTBBP, Harlem Heat are one of the things I am not looking forward to most. Much more than Dungeon of Doom. Only redeeming feature is the slight sub-text in all of their promos that they'd just been double teaming Sherri.

Seriously, you know like how in video games you sometimes have to make your character and you start with just a blank face with dark hair and no distinguishing features, that's Roderick Strong. Joe Malenko has the same affliction.

Could anyone? He's just about the most non-descript looking guy I've ever seen!

Something interesting: right now, Jumbo is winning the poll vs. Misawa but losing this one vs. Tenryu. Makes me wonder what a Misawa vs. Tenryu poll would look like. But the poll market has become almost as saturated as the podcast market recently. Still, interesting. If these polls are anything to go by, maybe Tenryu is a dark horse outside bet to finish very high in the final standings (as in Top 3).

So are there actually still video rental stores in the US? Here we had Blockbuster and seemingly they just vanished overnight one day about 6-7 years ago never to be seen of or heard of or even thought of again. Occassionally, I'll see the empty husk of one in a town or something, but always long gone and long out of business. It really does seem like something from last century in my thinking now.

I can see where you're going with that but I think it might be a bit harsh on Kane in terms of card positioning. Scicluna was a Bruno opponent in the mid-60s and a headliner. When most heels moved on after the run, instead he stuck around. He bought a house in the territory. He didn't move because he wanted stability for his family. And so he slid down the card. First to tag title level, then to mid-card, then essentially to curtain jerking and jobbing. The Baron wasn't a true jobber, but by the end he was a low JTTS. If it's Dominic Denucci or SD Jones vs. The Baron, it's Baron who is losing every time. Kane has never sunk to that sort of level as far as I can see. On Titans we've joked about Baron clocking in and clocking out of work, and I can see that in Kane too, but he did it at a higher level. You could feasibly insert Kane into a main event spot for a show, it would suck ass, but you could still just about do it. Whereas Baron even by the late 70s would get a nosebleed if he was more than a match or two removed from the opener.

I don't understand this point and, don't want to come across as being too harsh, but I think this is just an excuse and a bit lazy. 1. You have the internet. 2. You have eyes. 3. You have time. Those are the tools you require. You've already found PWO. We've talked about the candicacies of people like Ivan Koloff and Sgt. Slaughter ad naseum. People have often done the research for you. It's a case of spending some time reading and finding out about them. Then there's youtube. I was born in 1982. Next month I'm planning on watching and reviewing the entire Sgt. Slaughter and Iron Sheik feud from 1984, it's about four hours all in. I couldn't have seen that feud at the time because I'd have been 2 years old. What's stopping you also watching that stuff along with me? Why can't you get behind Slaughter because he had his main runs before you were born? Don't understand the argument. I know the reason people think like this though. It's this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic You'll go to the stuff that you know and that is most availble to you rather than to alternatives. It's not only easier, we are naturally inclined towards it. This is not intended as a rant. But rather pointing out that your claim that starts with "I am a younger fan therefore ..." is really just a post-hoc justification. If you want to see guys from the past, the footage is there. Your time is far better spent watching Sgt. Slaughter matches than it will ever be wondering about whether Kane should make any HoF.

So is the sub-text to a lot of this stuff that the only way to draw women are: 1. Push young men who they fancy 2. Push women they can cheer for / relate to Is there no other way that the female audience could be captured? What if you develop the storytelling so that it focuses more on relationships or something like that? More of a focus on motivation, what's driving certain wrestlers. Give the whole thing a bit more depth. If the storytelling was engaging enough surely women could get into it enough to want to sit through the blow offs. You'd have to do a good job of packaging things though, maybe a 1-hour highlight package focusing more on angles than in-ring stuff. I don't know why I'm assuming that women would be more into storylines than actual matches, but I feel that is probably likely to be the case.

Why not let's agree to disagree then and move on?