JerryvonKramer

On that, do you think Arn works as a face as naturally and easily as Eaton does?

I think I've flipped back to Flair as #1 and Jumbo as #2. I might have to toss a coin on the day.

Arn (unsurprisingly) demolished Waltman and (a little surprisingly) saw off Tully with relative ease. But what about Eaton? For some reason I find that Arn is a very useful benchmark. For this one I really don't know. I think Eaton is right there with him. Interested in views here.

Alright, probably Crockett.

This is a really difficult question. There are five different promotions that I am completely "at home" and happy in, but they aren't necessarily compatible. (no particular order) 1. WWF circa 85-93. The flavour pre- and post-87 is slightly different as we've discussed recently, but it's a universe I'm completely comfortable with. To the extent where you can pick more or less any match from any time in that stretch and I could probably tell you not just the year but the time of year based on shit like the colour of Dino Bravo's hair. I am a total mark for this period, especially the non-wrestling aspects like Fink as ring announcer, Vince & Jesse / Gorilla & Bobby, Mean Gene on interviews, Sean Mooney in the control centre with Kevin Dunn in the background, etc. etc. I love the presentation. I love Vince shouting himself hoarse at the start of PPVs. I think the storytelling, especially at the main event level, is criminally underrated. 2. Mid-South. My immediate thought when I read the title of the thread. Especially the period 83-5. Love the studio. Love the old man in the front row. Love the logical booking. LOVE Watts himself on commentary. Love the sorts of characters who are around the promotion, especially DiBiase of course. Love the intensity of the work inside the ring and "meat and potatoes" / "blood and guts" feel of the place. 3. Crockett circa 85-7. Ole-era Horsemen. Techwood studio. Schiavone with a mustache. Flair and Dusty cutting gold promo after gold promo in front of that "World Championship Wrestling" set with the planet on it. Bob Caudle saying things like "Well Jim". David Crockett losing his shit at every near fall. The flags in the studio. Ron Garvin's chops. Flair saying "Wahoo McDANiel". 4. All Japan pretty much any time from 70s to 90s, but more towards the late 70s and 80s feel. Especially The Funks coming out to this music: while more confetti than humanly imaginable showers down on the ring. Stan Hansen charging through the crowd like Godzilla as the fans scatter and he throws a chair or two into the ring. Jumbo coming out this music: and pumping his fist while four girls stand with 8 massive boquets of flowers and a 10-foot trophy. In various ways, they are all completely "perfect" to me. And mixing and matching any of them doesn't feel right, y'know? Edit: oh and the fifth is WCW in 92.

Memphis 2.6 Jerry Lawler vs. Dutch Mantell (No DQ) (3/22/82) Some simple, methodical storytelling here. Lawler takes a chair shot to the leg early on which gives him an ongoing disadvantage. Mantell mostly works on top with punches until he takes it out with a bodyslam on the floor and four or give post shots, which gives Lawler colour. Then Mantell takes things back to the ring with a chair shot and proceeds systematically to dismantle Lawler with pretty much his entire arsenal of offense, including a suplex, slams, splashes from the second rope, and a piledriver. Lawler comes back with punches, but then Mantell cuts him off and gets a flash pin with a sunset flip for an upset win for the title. While the storytelling was logical here, and it was cool watching Mantell go through the gears in the heat segment, I thought this took too long to get going. Also, since Lawler was losing here, I wonder if this was the "right" story to tell. This will sound strange coming from the guy who ragged on Bob Backlund for working too strong as champ week in and week out, but if Mantell was going over, surely Lawler needs to come out of this a bit stronger no? I mean he had his comeback killed here. "Mantell kicks Lawler's ass, he tries to come back but loses anyway" seems an odd story to tell to me. This was good, but not great. *** Memphis 2.7 Jerry Lawler vs. Dutch Mantell (Loser Leaves Town) (3/27/82) Promo from Mantell now. He doesn't like Lawler one bit! Lawler is prepared to have a match on TV. Loser gets a bus ticket out of town. This is worked in a slightly more technical manner than the previous match, which makes sense. But then it starts getting more and more heated until Mantell backs up and gets on the mic and asks for a time out and says "this is stupid, let's stop". He tries to break off the feud in the middle of the match. Ha ha. This has GOT to be a swerve. He wants to team up. Hmmmm, don't do it Jerry!! Mantell sticks his hand out for Lawler to shake. They shake hands. WTF? Are yeah, there it is!! I knew it! Chair shot. Piledriver! Elbow drop! Counts three himself. Ha ha ha ha ha. That was some awesome heeling right there. Pussying out of the match and then suckering Lawler into an ambush. So dastardly. **1/2 for the match, angle is an ****1/2 Memphis 2.8 Jerry Lawler vs. Dutch Mantell (Barbed Wire Match) (3/29/82) Fairplay, they've built to this match well. Barbed wire is just nasty isn't it. The level of punching in this match is just off the charts. Dutch can really throw em, and Lawler's are tremendous too of course. Enjoyed this a lot, awesome slugfest and it's got a bit of the Rocky vs. Mr. T narrative, with Mantell as T punching himself out and running out of gas. This is some good shit right here. Gritty, southern wrestling at its finest.Great intensity throughout. ****1/2 Memphis 2.9 Bill Dundee vs. Sweet Brown Sugar (2/3 falls, Scaffold Match) (6/21/82) I think this is the fabled Kobo B. Ware (Sugar here) scaffold match which is actually meant to be good. Well, let's see ... Dundee looks really stacked here by the way, almost looks like Rick Martel. Okay, now I see what Will's been going on about for the past 4 years. This has a genuine sense of danger and real intensity. Dundee is a guy who impresses the hell out of me whenever I see him. The way he attacks Sugar here is verging on psychotic. I think part of it is that the platform is not as high above the ring as in the Starrcade ones I'm guessing you've all seen. It's still not anything I'd class as "great", but this is probably as good as a scaffold match can be. ***1/2 Memphis 2.10 Bobby Eaton & Sweet Brown Sugar vs. Dutch Mantell & King Cobra (7/19/82) Someone will have to fill me on on how Mantell turned face, but I'm guessing it was a "respect" angle after the brutality of the barbed wire match and how much he gave there. Eaton plays a real snivelling Memphis-y heel here, all stooging, all stalling. Coming in only when on top. He almost works it as if he were Sweet Brown Sugar's manager. But when he does get in, even though he's really young here, it's still Bobby Eaton and he delivers a fucking SWEET scoop powerslam (yeah yeah, "shades of DiBiase", etc., ha ha). His punches are already great here. And he already has his range of cool offense. Nice back suplex at one point. Eaton is the definition of a "super worker". Everything he does in this match is fucking perfect. His elbow drops are poetry. Mantell is a really great FIP here too eating up all of Eaton's offense. Sweet Brown Sugar is no slouch either, and plays his role pretty well throughout. I think Koko Ware was someone who could be led by the right opponent or partner. The double teaming spots were cool as fuck here with Jimmy Hart orchestrating things from the outside. King Cobra was on the hot tag, which was the right role for him too: letting Mantell do the lion's share of the work for his team. Eventually Mantell grabs a bullrope and goes wild for a DQ, but this was a really tight 13-minute tag match. Wow, I wasn't expecting Eaton to be quite as good as that in 1982. It's like he was the finished article before he was ever in the Midnights. He will finish really high on the GWE rankings. Guaranteed top 30. His cap is probably Arn. This was really good. **** Memphis 2.11 Bill Dundee vs. Bobby Eaton (7/24/82) Jimmy Hart cuts a promo before the match complaining that the First Family aren't getting enough airtime. He wants Eaton interviewed. He has a thick thick accent and stumbles over himself a few times too, which explains why he let others talk for him so much later in his career. He's the Mid-America Champion here, which was basically like Memphis's IC title. Mantell wants a shot and Jimmy Hart tells him that he's "bottom of the list". Mantell has the bull rope and forces Hart to sit in a chair by the ring to watch the match. Memphis is very good for this studio shit. Dundee and Eaton cut a really fast pace for this one. Once again, Eaton is fucking tremendous, great at all aspects of the in-ring performance. Cool offense, great level of intensity, great heel psychology (he always makes sure that he breaks a rule as soon as the ref's back is turned), and great selling. Dundee is right there with him. The middle rope snaps after about 10 minutes, but these are two pros who don't let that stop them at all and Dundee takes the title with a flying press. Enjoyed the hell out of this. Just two great workers having a match. After the match the First Family come in as well as some faces for a big ol' pier six brawl. Hart lays in his signature wimpy stomps too. Dundee has colour. Dutch Mantell gets his bull whip out again and I have to say the sight of him cracking it at Sweet Brown Sugar made me wince a bit (if that's too subtle for you: I'm talking about Zeb Colter whipping a black man). **** Memphis 2.12 Jerry Lawler vs. Ric Flair (8/14/82) Flair is here with the NWA title and talks to Lance Russell. Flair is so great here, he toes this line between being respectful but then burying Memphis with faint praise. "After being in big towns like Chicago ..." "I'm going to show these people what a real world champion looks like". The subtext to EVERYTHING he says and does is "I'm big time and this is a rinky dink town, I'm doing you people a favour by being here". He's totally and utterly conceited, totally full of himself, but stays on the side of being vaguely respectful. Another awesome promo from the best in the business -- and very different from his usual. Now we get Lawler on the mic. He wants a word with the champ. This is so awesome. You can tell it's totally eating up Lawler inside. He's the big fish in this pond and who is this strutting prick coming into HIS town? But none of it is stated. All left in the sub-text at the moment. Flair makes out like he's such a big shot that he scarcely knows who Lawler is. Such a bastard, lol. Flair goes on to say that he could go in there and wrestle a broom. The people pay to see him. Ooooh he's being so cheeky tonight. "Who's the little guy with the dark hair again? Oh that's right, Bill Dundee". Just fucking perfect heeling here. Got to know he's rubbing up everyone the wrong way. "Ric Flair, the legend, Ric Flair, YOUR world champion". Lawler reasons that since no one is in his calbire, he suggests that the two of them lock up instead of the scheduled matches. Lawler is doing a great line in blowing smoke up his ass in the most insincere manner possible. He's trying to appeal to Flair's ego in order to get a title shot. "You wouldn't be putting some of that country jive on me now would ya?" - Flair. I've loved every second of this confrontation so far. "The World Champion never puts the title on TV. I don't make $500,000 a year and fly around in private jets defending that title on local TV programs you understand." But then he turns round and gives him the title shot anyway. Flair reckons he's going to take Lawler to school. That was awesome. Like the wrestling equivalent of the Pacino and De Niro showdown in the cafe in Heat. And to anyone wondering "Hmmm that seems like Flair buried Lawler", he doesn't. Just before the match he goes over to Russell and says "I understand that Jerry Lawler is a big deal in this part of the country, and a big deal in professional wrestling" (putting his opponent OVER), "but I'm going to give him this one chance to walk back to the locker room before I embarrass him" (but I'm BETTER). Flair is a God to the promo. He's a fucking GOD. Match finally starts after like 20 minutes of this awesomeness ... The match is billed for only 10 minutes and it's mostly Flair on top and Lawler selling. Flair's chops are stiff as hell. Ric busts out a gutwrench suplex which is not a common move in his repetoire. I love that, when Flair just pulls out a random move you never see him do. He really beats the crap out of Lawler here. Massive standing powerslam. This is almost Flair as monster heel. Vertical suplex and figure-four as the clock runs out. Flair wants to tell everyone that he submitted. So the narrative here is that the World Champ is just that good that he can kick the crap out of Lawler? No, because Flair's hubris gets the better of him and he demands another 5 minutes. Lawler pulls down the strap and the comeback is on. Flair flip. Slam. Fistdrop from the second rope. Flair ups and leaves. Lawler wants him counted out. Flair comes back and he's irate. And he's suddenly flipped to Carolina Flair after being all subtle and soft-spoken earlier. You see all four faces right here brothers, all four faces in forty-odd minutes of tremendous wrestling TV. He pays Jimmy Hart off to put Lawler out of wrestling. Flair is the greatest wrestling personality the world has ever seen and ever will see. I LOVED how this played out. It was a bit like an issue of DC Comics or something, where Batman is suddenly facing off against a Justice-League-level foe or something. Or like Lex Luthor has come to Gotham. Something like that. For the match, ***3/4, for the whole thing *****, wrestling TV doesn't get much better. Flair was so fucking good in this. One of the best things I've seen in wrestling period.

I don't think so, but you have to be aware that the aura of Valentine is enhanced by him being mostly different from the norm in the environment. He's having those matches with Tito while elsewhere in the promotion the Hillbillies are running around and most of the guys are bringing live animals to the ring. I mean, look at Pat Patterson in 1979 WWF, to an extent he stands out a mile because he came to MSG, the land of the lumbering Gorilla men, with his working boots on. Transport 79 Patterson -- exactly the same wrestler -- and stick him in ROH in 2005. And he's going to stand out for completely different reasons. I'd argue he'd be great in any context because he's that good a worker -- which is why I champion guys like him and why I'm down on Dick the Bruiser or Chief Jay Strongbow or anyone else who was primarily over because of being in the right place at the right time with the right character. (I can hear Johnny screaming somewhere, but I stick by that) By the same token, one goes into Hansen vs. Misawa with a set of expectations. What do you expect? Hansen basically to kick the shit out of Misawa for 10 minutes followed by Misawa coming back in some way. That's how you'd imagine it going down, but what we get is the human chess match. For me it confounds expections in a negative way. It's not the match I'd hope for. And even as the human chess match it's not the best example of one -- I mean that's the promotion that was home to The Destroyer and that saw Baba or Jumbo vs. every NWA champ from Dory Jr onwards. The bar is high for that, and for whatever reason they don't deliver there either. Of course, I'm assuming in all of these cases that you aren't watching matches in a vacuum (which I know you're not for AJPW), but that affects things too. CM Punk vs. John Cena stripped of context just looks like any other typical WWE Main Event style match.

To be honest, I don't think there's much of a problem, judging by what everyone has said. I was just having a bit of a moan with this thread ... And for what it's worth, we've had some good non-Current-WWE-centric discussion these past few days. No idea if this thread was a catylst or if it's just a coincidence, but either way is cool with me. As for the other point, I think the relationship between this board and at least the shows on the PWO-PTBN Network has always been genuinely symbiotic. I don't think either one is "supplementary", they feed from each other naturally. I'm always happy when people join this place after listening to one of our shows. And equally it's nice when you get someone like Superstar Sleaze who transitions from being primarily a guy who writes written reviews to being on audio. That's genuinely healthy and "for the best".

I do hope not.

The Misawa vs. Stan Hansen matches from 92 are disappointing because they are worked as if it was Brisco vs. Baba from 1975. Granted, neither of them are as good on the mat as Brisco or Baba, but I think take those exact matches and transport them back 15 years and they would feel less disappointing. The incredibly action-packed style of AJPW in 92 is a factor in why those matches are disappointing. There's no way around it. Then again, it can work the other way. When Greg Valentine brings a bit of Southern stiffness to the WWF in the mid-80s, people don't tend to say it's disappointing, but better than everything else going on. He felt that way on 1975 WWF footage too. I think bringing more action / intensity / brutality / speed to a place that typically lacks any of those things will usually be seen as welcome. Whereas it's harder to go the other way.

He threw a shit load of suplex variations, so there is that I suppose. I'm looking forward to getting to the 81-3 period to see how he worked when he didn't have the belt. I'm also hoping that the matches are more complete from that period. His bouts against Terry Funk and Ted DiBiase from 78-9, while clipped, did look great. And I can see he has another DiBiase match coming up in 81 (I assume this will be clipping from The Omni, looks like a GCW run), one vs. Martel in 80, one vs. Steamer in 82, Kerry von Eric in 82, tag with Slater vs. The Funks, more matches with Baba and Jumbo (think I've seen at least 3 of those already on 80s AJ set?), random match vs. Curt Hennig in 84. If there's isn't something good in that lot, I'll be disappointed.

One thing we could do a bit more is reiterate points we've made on shows again on here, because not everyone listens to every show. It's kind of weird cos you always feel like you are repeating yourself, but sometimes I guess you've got to for the sake of discussion.

I haven't got to it yet but everyone talks up the 8/31/83 match from Kansas. I had to take a break from Harley for a while, he was doing my head in (see above). He is like the total underneath NWA champ, if you think Flair worked weak sometimes, you ain't seen nothing until you see late 70s Harley. I don't actually get how the fans could think he was a tough guy when he got his ass kicked so much.

Think that's it: Harley Race vs. Ric Flair (GCW, early 80s) Harley Race vs. Ric Flair (2/28/82) Harley Race vs. Ric Flair (End clip – 6/10/83, Harley wins his seventh NWA World Title) Harley Race vs. Ric Flair (8/31/83) Harley Race vs. Ric Flair in a “Steel Cage Match” (Starrcade) Harley Race vs. Ric Flair (5/22/84) Harley Race vs. Ric Flair (7/19/84) Harley Race vs. Ric Flair (2/24/85) This is assuming that the Harley comp I have is complete. The Flair one has obvious gaps.

Yes, hold on let me check my comps.

Week 13 (April, Week 1) Challenge: Mainly a show to advance the tournament to where it needs to be for Mania. Gorilla: Well, Jim, we're jam-packed to the rafters here because it is a happening tonight here on WWF Challenge. It's all about that tournament for the vacant WWF title. And it's we've got the remaining quarter-final matches, the American Dream, Dusty Rhodes, who has come in from Florida especially for a shot at the title in this tournament, is taking on a name a lot of people are talking about right now, Ted DiBiase. How do you see this one going Jim? Cornette: Gorilla, Dusty Rhodes will talk a good game and have these morons here right behind him, but Ted DiBiase and The Elite is where it is at right now, and I find it hard to look beyond him getting the job done somehow. Gorilla: And in the other match, it's Jimmy "Superfly" Snuka taking on The Russian Bear, Ivan Koloff. Jim? Cornette: It's going to be an uphill struggle for the Superfly, because you've got to remember, Monsoon, it's not just Ivan Koloff that Snuka has to worry about -- they don't call Freddie Blassie "Classy" for nothing. Gorilla: And you can be sure, not matter what the final match is at Wrestlemania, it's going to be a CLASSIC. But before all of that, let's go to our opening match with the 8th Wonder of the World, Andre the Giant! Not a great match, but Dusty is not hugely over in New York. He also took some convincing to do this job. Superstars: Massive pre-Mania show with some big storyline stuff. Here's the situation going in, will put full show results in spoilers at the end for anyone following the story: Vince: It's a very big show tonight, Jesse Ventura, ONE WEEK before WRESTLEMANIA!!! And just two semi-final matches left before the big one next week. Jesse: Yes, McMahon, it's coming down to crunch time. And my contacts tell me that that ... chump Superstar Billy Graham has a special interview with Bruno tonight before his big match with Sgt. Slaughter. I don't know if I was Bruno, but I wouldn't want that sort of distraction so close to a big match. Vince: Well, Jesse, I will be interviewing Ted DiBiase myself personally. The world wants to see who is going to be in the final match-up at Wrestlemania. It's come down to four men: Sgt. Slaughter, Jimmy Snuka, Bruno Sammartino and Ted DiBiase! It's WHAT THE WORLD IS WATCHING!!! Jesse: I ought to stop hanging around with you, you cramp my style. Graham: And welcome brothers, to the Superstar's Supershow right here on WWF Superstars! And today it's my honour to introduce to you, The Living Legend, Bruno Sammartino! And Andre the Giant! *Bruno and Andre are sitting on the sofa, neither of them look very happy* Graham: Well, Bruno Sammartino. We go back a long ways don't we brother. But I've been as unhappy as anyone the way Ted DiBiase has been coming out here and running his mouth. We saw him last week run you down to Allentown, brother. Him and his cronies, The Elite, we've seen em do a lot of terrible things now. I just wanna run through them things to remind everyone. We're going to show you, Bruno, and you Andre some clips now. And I apologise if this footage is distressing to rewatch. Graham: It all started back at the Royal Rumble. You, brother Andre, won that and the Royal Rumble trophy. Look at what happened. *VT of Andre being attacked by The Elite at the Royal Rumble (Week 3 [Jan, Week 3])* Graham: Then, just a couple of weeks later, you, brother Bruno, you came back brother. You came back to talk to these fans about your life outside of the ring, brother. And look at what happened. *VT of Bruno being attacked by The Elite* Graham: Then, Ted DiBiase, Randy Savage and the rest of em came on this very show, brother, on the Superstar's Supershow! And they all ran their mouths about everyone. *VT clips of DiBiase's promo from Week 5 (Feb, Week 1) "It was all 'Bruno Sammartino this, Andre the Giant that'. And everywhere you turn there's a stooge" ... "Wherever you go it's 'Bruno Sammartino' ... Who did Bruno ever beat? Some Greek guy no ones ever heard of? He stayed up here and never faced any of the REAL wrestlers from all over this country because Bruno was scared he was going to be FOUND out ...* Graham: And then on the week after that, brothers, the legendary Buddy Rogers, the first WWF champion! He came on this show and look what these punks done ... *VT of The Elite ambushing Buddy Rogers and Bruno coming out and roaring in pain (Week 6 [Feb, Week 2]* Graham: And you, Bruno, you couldn't take it no more, brother. *VT of Bruno's promo from Week 7 (Feb, Week 3) "Well LET ME TELL YA, DIBIASE! You've made ONE old guy VERY angry. And that's ME. ... Come at me DiBiase. Where are you Savage? Blanchard! Anderson! Come out here and face me you little cowards! You'll wish you'd never been born, wrestling business or no wrestling business. You're going to be fighting for your lives!" Shots of Bruno posing with his allies* Graham: And then, brother, they put Bob Backlund out of wrestling for good. And the President, Vincent McMahon Sr announced a tournament for the title! *VT with clips of Savage breaking Backlund's leg and McMahon Sr announcing the tournament (Week 8 [Feb, Week 4]* Graham: And then, Andre brother, as if these guys hadn't done enough already, The Macho Man Randy Savage attacked you after a match with Big John Studd, and this happened. *VT clip of Savage attacking Andre, then throwing Elizabeth in his pass and Andre sending her flying. (Week 9 [Mar, Week 1])* Graham: Andre, brother, you've been sitting there patient as a saint. You got anything you want to say? Andre: Miss Elizabeth. Sorry to you. Randy Savage push you into me. And I ... I am a big man. Savage!! Me and you at Wrestlemania!! I coming to find you right now!!! ARGHHH!!!!! *Andre gets up angrily and lumbers off the set looking for Savage* Graham: I hope you find that pipsqueak brother ... (*Turns his attention back to Bruno*) And then you, Bruno came out of retirement to go in that tournament, you been winning, brother. Inching closer to the final at Wrestlemania. But then just last week Ted DiBiase came out here again and had this to say. *VT clip of DiBiase promo from Superstars Week 12 (Mar, Week 4) "Why don't you give it up Bruno? You're an old beaten man. Isn't it about time you went home and ate some pasta with your wife?! You're a NOTHING. You're a HAS BEEN. It's 1983 and it's my time now. MINE. It's the time of The Elite!"* Graham: Gentlemen, you've been patient in sitting back and watching all of that. And now it's time to hear what you gotta say ... Bruno: Well let me tell ya Superstar Billy Graham, Ted DiBiase, what do you think you are sayin' calling me a "has been"? You been in ... *All of a sudden Bruno's mic cuts off. We hear a voice, it's ... Jesse Ventura* Jesse: Cut the interview, cut the interview! *Jesse has a big house mic, he's walked onto the set* Jesse: I've been sitting here now, what? 10 minutes? 10 minutes and you've barely asked your guests any questions Graham! You're meant to be a journalist. You're meant to be INVESTIGATING what is going on in the mind's of these men. Graham (furious): Jesse Ventura! What are you doing out here?! This is MY time, this is MY show! And these people want to hear what Bruno Sammartino has to say! Jesse: Well you've screwed up Graham. This is TELEVISION! You've used all your time and now it's MY time. I'm the co-host of this show, see, WWF Superstars. This is MY show. And you've gone over time! Graham: Put the microphone back on and let this man speak! Jesse: These producers listen to me, you understand? Because I'M the broadcast journalist and you're just an old wrestler PRETENDING to be one. Graham: You think I can't do what you do? Just sitting there and talking about the matches? That's an easy job! I'm trying to do some work here! Jesse: Well you've made a mess of it Graham because you're time is up! Go on, scram, get off the set. Graham: Security! We have another ten minutes at least here! Get this man off my set. Security! Jesse: Don't you understand that these people listen to me? ME! I'm Mr. Superstars, I'm the host of this show! Graham: There can be only ONE "Mr. Superstar", Jesse Ventura! And it's ME! SUPERSTAR Billy Graham! You understand? Jesse: Well why don't we settle this in that ring? Graham (tearing at his shirt): You want to go in there right now?! Jesse: Where's your sense of style gone? I got a different proposition ... WRESTLEMANIA! Graham: You want to face me at Wrestlemania? Jesse: But I want to settle this the way they used to way back ... in an ARM WRESTLING CONTEST. *Graham looks at one of his arms and flexes his bicep* Graham: You're on brother! Jesse: But just one thing, Graham ... If I win, I get this show. This slot is MINE! Graham: Alright you got it, shake on it ... *The shake hands, but as they are shaking hands, Graham tightens his grip and Jesse can't let go* Graham: But you got to put something up too! YOU'RE SLOT! *Jesse is taken aback. He tries to free his hand, but Graham's grasp is too right* Jesse: Wait, whoaaa, wait, now ... you want to be the co-host of WWF Superstars? You want my job?! Graham: That's right, your job vs. my job. Jesse: Well, well ... wait, now ... we have to check the legality of the contract. This is television, you can't decide a job over an arm-wrestling contest! Graham: A deal is a deal brother! And all these millions of people have seen it right here on TELEVISION! *Graham turns to the camera, still crushing Ventura's hand* Graham: We've got to go to a commercial break, ladies and gentlemen, and when we get back, this piece of work right here will be gone, and you WILL hear from Bruno Sammartino and Andre the Giant! *commercial break, when we come back Jesse has gone and the interview with Bruno resumes* Graham: So Bruno, we've seen all of what has happened. What do you have to say now? Bruno: What I'll say is this Billy Graham. DiBiase comes out here calling me a "has been". He comes out here and runs down my career and runs down these tremendous fans who pay their money to see us. You know, I know I ain't a young man any more. I grew up in the World War. You know the stories. We was eating snow in the mountains to keep us from starving. And we came here, in America, for a new life. I everything I've ever had in this life I've had to WORK for. You understand that? I have WORKED. Blood and sweat and tears. And all the endless hours in the gym. And all the miles I travelled. Boston, New York, Toronto, Washington, St. Louis, Philadephia. I been up and down that road a thousand times. And every match I had that belt around my waist, I took every match the same. I gotta win, I gotta do my best so that I can be my best and feed my family! Just like all of these MEN here in this crowd tonight who go out every day, out on the docks, in the factories, down the mines, men who sweat and bleed to feed their families! And Ted DiBiase comes out here and runs those people down and says he's better than them? Well DiBiase let me tell you THIS! Those people, they are MEN. I'm a MAN. And you're just an arrogant, young punk with more money than sense! You told us all how you grew up in this business. Well think of your FATHER. He was a MAN. He knew what it was to put his body on the line and sacrifice himself for his family! You SICKEN me, DiBiase, with what you've been saying. *Bruno has tears in his eyes* Bruno: Now I gotta beat Sgt. Slaughter to get to that final in Wrestlemania. And you've got to beat Jimmy Snuka. But let me tell you something now. I want to say this and I want the WWF President to hear it! I don't CARE if Ted DiBiase doesn't reach the final, and I don't care if I do! At Wrestlemania, I WANT DIBIASE. And IN A CAGE so that all of your little punk friends can't run in and help you. You understand what I'm telling you?! I'd give up another shot at that belt, Bruno Sammartino's belt, because I want to destroy you. You need to be taught a lesson. And I am going to do it for ALL OF THESE MEN. I'm going to do it for the good of wrestling! Graham: Now, now ... Bruno, I want to make this clear ... are you saying that you are withdrawing from the tournment? Bruno: No what I'm saying is that whether I reach the final or whether he does, I want that cage match at Wrestlemania with him! I don't care if I have to wrestle TWO matches that night, that's the one I want! Graham: So win or lose in the tournament, you're challenging DiBiase to a cage match at Wrestlemania? Bruno: That's right. I'm issueing that challenge right now and if he's a MAN he will accept that. Graham: Well that's an EXCLUSIVE here on Superstar's Supershow. Bruno Sammartino has challenged Ted DiBiase to a cage match at Wrestlemania! Vince: Ted DiBiase, you heard it there, you've been challenged to a match inside of the steel cage by Bruno Sammartino at Wrestlemania, no matter what happens in tonight's matches? Do you accept? DiBiase: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha! HAHAHAHAHA! I've heard it all now, McMahon, he wants to face me no matter what? He talks about working for a living and earning your way and he expects to face a member of THE ELITE just like that? Oh no, it doesn't work like that Bruno. When I beat Jimmy Snuka tonight, my next step is taking my rightful place on top of the mountain, as the new WWF champion! It doesn't matter if I have to beat you, or if I have to beat Sgt. Slaughter, THAT'S my match at Wrestlemania! Vince: So you're declining the challenge? DiBiase: I already have a challenge. It's to become the new WWF champion. I'm not wasting my time with an old man who is trying to hold me down! It's my time now whether Bruno likes it or not! Now ... (DiBiase looks shifty) ... if you'll excuse me I have some ... business to attend to. *Vince looks at him quizzically* DiBiase: What are you looking at? I've got a semi-final match to prepare for! I'm going. DiBiase comes down to ringside and causes a count-out loss for Bruno, costing him a place in the final. Bruno, in a fit of revenge, costs DiBiase his place in the final resulting in a break-out brawl to the back. But now we're all set for Wrestlemania!! New England Live Show: Just another show, building who needs to be built.

Styles is one of a very small handful of modern guys I'm considering. I like cool offense and from what I've seen so far, he delivers that in spades. Just need to see a bit more but I reckon Styles might be someone I could be high on despite the environments he's tended to work his entire career.

Absolutely hilarious. I want to set up a blood feud between this guy and my man Johnny Sorrow. Perfect opponents.

At some point the show changes though. I think those ones in 86 typically have Gorilla and Heenan in a studio right? They talk, introduce a match, talk, match, talk. I think in 87-8, they move around with gimmick locations more and have little "themes of the week". A bit more schtick in there. Like the two of them might be wearing a Mexican hats, or be lounging by a pool with cocktails, or some shit. They show a bit more MSG / Boston stuff, as well as clips from Superstars. Then 89-90, a lot of matches come from TV tapings with a "Prime Time Wrestling" banner on the ring with the legendarily-awesome/terrible combo of Sean Mooney and Lord Alfred Hayes on commentary. Schiavone might crop up for a bit in 89. The totally random commentator combinations are quite fun. Matches feel a bit more B-show-y during that time. Typically like a bigger star vs a JTTS or midcarder. But hardly ever jobber matches. With Mooney and Hayes on commentary everything feels like it's happening in a vacuum. At some point Heenan gets his own show. This doesn't last long, but then the whole of Prime Time transitions into a studio with a really wimpy live crowd. Sean Mooney fronts it. This is from the start of 91, you'll remember things like Sgt. Slaughter and Gen. Adnan on there. Or Ric Flair debuting later in the year. Then it changes again to the roundtable format with Vince hosting it, typically with Gorilla, Heenan, Mr. Perfect and someone like Piper or Hillbilly Jim filling out the numbers. They basically just argue for 10-minute stretches, show some clips and then argue some more. And I think it stays like until Raw starts.

I bought a pile of PTW a couple of years back, when I got TNT at the same time. I found that while TNT was a trip with some hilarious moments, PTW is a really weird beast and is sometimes outright dull. The earliest ones with Jesse and that Jack Reynolds are really pretty boring to sit through. And I lost momentum on it before other projects I'm involved with took over. You do get the occasional hot arena match though. I seem to recall a good match featuring Paul Orndorff and B. Brian Blair (for example). You've probably seen more than me if you've watched everything on the Network ... any hidden gems in there? I also think -- and it's something that we've talked about recently too -- that there's a definite pre-87, post-87 thing going on. Both in terms of WWF presentation overall, and Hogan's character. Things are a lot more homogenised after 87. The branding is more on point. The gimmicks are more tightly controlled. The match structures become more formulaic. "Rock n Wrestling" transitions more into early-cartoon era (as opposed to late-cartoon era, which is like 92-3).

Yeah it was on the last episode. Baba's three big virtues as a booker are: 1. Patience. The guy never rushes, like at all, unless circumstances force his hand (Tenryu leaving). And even then he takes at least two years to build Misawa. 2. Structure / rigidity / maintaining hierarchy -- this is hard to sum up in one word, but the hierarchy in AJPW is so well established and well maintained that when a guy is getting pushed and elevated, you sure as hell know it. For our conversation this was triggered by the way Taue (not Jumbo) started getting pins in those last tags of Jumbo's in 92. "Masterful" is the word. I put Baba right up there as a booker. 3. Timing. That is knowing exactly when to pull the trigger on a guy. Jumbo in 83, Tenryu in 89, Misawa in 91.

For some reason in my head Savio Vega was another Godfather/ Papa Shango gimmick. Interesting to hear him given such praise here, never really thought about him.

I actually have less of an agenda here than people (including Pete) might think. Will try to answer his points: 1. It's March and it's mania. The negative talk is because the booking has been terrible. Last year we as fans were pissed until they switched gears and the build became a lot more palatable. I get that, but it has felt like it has drowned everything else out. 2. Their are a lot of podcasts that cover old school wrestling. People get their fix with those. To a lot of people the 90's are considered old school. All I'll say is that I'd encourage people to give their thoughts more, especially if they've watched footage. 3. He's upset that their isn't more talk of 70's footage. Bottom line it doesn't have the nostalgia factor that the 80's has. I'm not that upset by it. I understand that some of the footage is hard to get hold of and even harder to sit through, especially if it's clipped, 8mm film, Luce stuff, etc. More entry barriers than most areas. By "old school", I mean generally "anything older than about 1996". 70s had no bearing on me making this thread. 4. He's looking at Dory Jr and has positive feelings for him as a worker. Not a lot of people share that opinion. Will has been the most vocal against Dory. Bottom line, most people take Will's stance on Dory. People don't want to go down that rabbit hole with you. I haven't really gone on about Dory that much. He'll make my list, involved in too many great matches not to be, but I'm well aware of his shortcomings. He had no bearing on me making this thread. 5. He then says people don't want to go on the ride with Brisco, Wahoo etc either. I think watching 70's style wrestling is more foreign than watching Lucha to a lot of people. When I said in our chat that "people don't care about the 70s", I was just saying that I get it that only a fraction of people will want to explore back that far. I mean shit, we've known that ever since we started Titans. Again, not really what I was getting at with this thread. 6. The best of 80's sets have been in a holding pattern. That generates a lot of 80's talk. I agree with that. The Lucha set stalled for some reason. I think a combination of DVDR going down, the network, and the natural slump in energy and enthusiasm every project has after the initial burst. I mean I'll hold my hand up, I never got past disc 2. But yes, we're due a set, and that has partly been what has been missing. 7. Parv you could talk about 80's Lucha in the Lucha thread. It's not type old school you want to talk about. I will say that I just reviewed an El Dandy match from 1988 and not just to prove a point. I am planning on trying to watch a good sampling of Lucha for GWE purposes, although it still hasn't really clicked with me the way Japanese wrestling does. Not impossible though, I like the environment more than modern indie or WWE. 8. The NJPW/ROH is something that I'm going to take as a shot aimed at me. I feel I've been given a label as an old school guy. I like good wrestling. I don't care what decade it's in. I've given ROH/and NJPW some positive pub on my end. They deserve it. They've put on good shows for me. On top of it both ROH and NJPW have streaming services where you can essentially go on tour with both brands in almost real time. If this was available in the 70's or 80's for MId-Atlantic Parv would have been all over it. Alright, you got me here. This was partly aimed at you (and Will), but like you two are influential guys in this community. Again, it's not like I'm saying no one should discuss NJPW or ROH, just that there's been a noticeable drop off in talk of older stuff, while this has risen. I get that New Japan world and the Network are factors here. I guess I was just worried that it might kill off discussion of older stuff for good. 9. The 90's have been covered in great detail. Loss and people like PeteF3, Chad, Childs and others have contributed a lot to those topics; and should be proud of all the discussion of the 90's product in all parts of wrestling. No arguments from me, those guys have been awesome, and those threads are a tremendous resource. I love it when I've just watched a match from the 90s and I can go and read their thoughts on it. 10. Finally, people might not feel all that comfy talking about footage from the 70's , but damn sure want to read about it. You don't post much in current WWE because you don't follow the product. You obviously read it. I bet a lot of people do read about your stuff with Brisco and Dory, but don';t have a lot to say about it because they haven't been involved in that world. Yeah, I get that. I should also mention that I do have the Network now and did watch both the Royal Rumble and Fast Lane. I am aware of what's happening in Current WWE in general, I just don't find it that interesting. And I find it slightly surprising that people are invested in it enough to moan about it as much as they do. I'll watch the PPV and be like "oh ho hum" and maybe listen to a reaction show and read some comments and move on. The booking has been at head-scratching levels of retarded, it's true, but I guess I find it a slight shame that the lion's share of attention is going on that right now. 11. Parv, you're still my boy.

Earthquake vs Big Bossman (11/18/90) 1. Standing scoop powerslam after catching Bossman on top rope. 2. Heenan's awesome slaps, and using the megaphone! 3. Sick heat segment from Tenta. Great work from him on top. Very enjoyable match. ***1/2

Pirata Morgan vs. El Dandy (9/23/88) I really wasn't into this match. Something about the action seemed sort of floaty and weightless. As an example, the first backdrop Pirara delivers, and Dandy's form and elevation in taking the move is almost too gymnastic. And this "floaty" feeling took me out of things a bit, almost like when you watch a fight with a CGI character in it, there isn't enough heft. The storytelling is very basic here: Pirata kicks the shit out of Dandy, takes the first fall; the ref keeps stopping Dandy from punching, eventually Dandy is able to transition and hits a big move off the top and the figure four for the second. Final fall is more of a brawl with some big bumps to the outside. Pirata clearly wasn't worried about AIDS or Hep B here either. Don't really see much of note here. It's a thirty minute match, there's a lot of blood, but I didn't find very much of the work or storytelling very compelling. ***1/2