JerryvonKramer

Chad is just touching the tip of the iceberg with that post. You can pick more or less any two people on the forum from OJ to goc and you'll see some wide divergence of opinions and things they are watching. Johnny Sorrow and Matt D are about as two polar opposite extremes of fan that you could possibly find. The thing that unites everyone on this forum is that we all watch footage. Not just footage from WWE from the past 10 years, not just WWF PPVs from Wrestlemania I onwards, but everything. Between us all, we cover the whole gamut. 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, current, big promotions, little promotions, territories, indies, US, Canada, Japan, Mexico, Britain, you name it, someone on the board is watching it. Fucking hell, Grimmas is working through minis matches, and this while Judy Martin has an active thread with someone reviewing her matches. Whichever way you want to put it, the scope is just bigger than 99% of places where wrestling is discussed out there. I don't know where else is even comparable. Places like Kayfabe Memories and Wrestling Classics tend to have more nostalgia guys reliving old memories, "hey remember when we saw Bruiser Brody in 83, yeah man it was wild and you weren't there, but he was great". What happens when people watch lots and lots of footage is that their views become a bit more diverse -- not "hive" -- but diverse, truly diverse. And then things like the GWE project happen so that some of us will have a look to see what the fuss about a Jim Breaks is. And more of us will watch Jim Breaks and more of us will see that, yes, OJ and co have been right, the guy is phenomenal. That's not a hive mind, it's people going to the footage for themselves and drawing conclusions for themselves. Cream will rise. If Jack Brisco is as good as me and Pete have been saying he is, people can watch him and decide for themselves. If they disagree, they'll come out and disagree ... And I can't think of a board where people are more willing to come out and disagree in a sensible way. If you have all these people who watch all this footage in one place, it's not surprising that certain common places -- received opinions from guys going on received opinions from something a guy said in a shoot once e.g. "Lex Luger was a shitty worker because he was an asshole in real life", "Kurt Angle is one of the top 10 workers who ever lived", etc. etc. -- are shot down. They aren't shot down because of a hive mind, they are shot down because the people have seen enough footage to have a different, informed view on it. And even then, you'll still find guys whose opinions diverge. I do sympathize with people getting angry over this because the idea this place has a "collective view" is the biggest load of bollocks ever.

Feel like I've gone on about it enough, but my sleeper pick is always Flair vs. Savage 95-6 edition: Jumbo vs. Tenryu is also one of my all-time favourite feuds. So much going on. Different value systems at stake. The establishment vs. the upstart rebel. The golden boy against the "almost" boy. It's such a fantastic story to follow right from when they start tagging until the match to end all matches in 1989. One of the greatest pay offs ever to one of the greatest feuds ever. The sort of thing that made All Japan a special promotion.

On the Van Hammer / Ziggler comparison -- people need to realise that a comparison need not imply equivlaence. In simpler terms, just because I might compare Baron Scicluna working the foreign object with Jerry Lawler, doesn't mean I'm saying Scicluna is as good as Lawler. And likewise, just because I compare Van Hammer working too fast to Ziggler working too fast, doesn't mean that I think Ziggler is as bad as Van Hammer. Things can be similar enough to draw a comparison without being equal. However, I do stand by both 1) the idea that Ziggler and other guys now work too fast and 2) the idea that Van Hammer (the worker, not the gimmick) would get over in the current product.

Polite request to lock this thread. 1. Whoever wanted to register their disapproval of the banning has done so. 2. It's not fair to bash someone who now has no right of reply. 3. This sort of drama detracts from the core business of the forum which is discussing wrestling. I don't care about this whole thing at all by the way, one way or the other, but I do object to this thread continuing.

Where do you go on the rematch or are you giving that a proper review? I'm going to do post-champ singles Jack in the US later on tonight.

Bit stingy with the rating Pete, a whole 1/2* less than the Inoki one.

More or less blackballed from the NWA and so never worked JCP during their peak national run and never worked for Vince vs. Hogan. When Flair and Hogan were drawing 10,000+ gates everywhere 85-7, Brody was genuinely working Kansas for Central States because no other promoter would touch him. Great business acumen.

Would you agree though that Jumbo was better pre-peak? Jumbo might well have a case for being a top 10 worker in the world for the 1970s, is anyone making a case for Tiger Mask II being a top 10 for the 80s?

Jumbo was definitely better in the 70s than Misawa was as Tiger Mask, and by some margin. In fact, before he got ill, I'm willing to bet that you could find a ****+ match for every single year that Jumbo was an active member of the roster from 1973 to 1992.

http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-68-clash-of-the-champions-17-2/ Chad and Parv review Clash of the Champions 17. - [2:26] Wrestling Observer and PW Torch roundup: Ricky Steamboat leaves WWF, Meltzer's HATRED for Van Hammer, Madusa and Sting's "Stinger", and WCW's total mismanagement of Lex Luger's contract clauses. - [29:13] Review of Clash of the Champions 17: The Freebirds as lumberjacks, guy turning babyface by getting kicked out of heel stables = burial?, can Sting back it back from the hospital in time to defend his US title?, and just where does Enforcers vs. Dustin Rhodes and Ricky Steamboat rank in the all-time best WCW matches? - [1:35:44] End of show awards and listener questions AND be sure to check out Matt Ds great companion piece at PTBN: http://placetobenation.com/the-column-beyond-working-hard-working-smart-and-the-art-of-the-southern-tag/ The PWO-PTBN Podcast Network features great shows you can find right here at Place to Be Nation. By subscribing on iTunes or SoundCloud, youll have access to new episodes, bonus content, as well as a complete archive of: Where the Big Boys Play, Titans of Wrestling, Pro-Wrestling Super-Show, Good Will Wrestling, and Wrestling With the Past.

I had a feeling I'd be the low vote on that Inoki match. I mean I had it at ****1/2, but think the stuff with Baba is better.

There's a fair amount 77-84, but it's mostly joined in progress. As is the way with footage from that era, you have to watch clips to get a "feel" for how someone was. And some of the clips are 10+ mins, mixture of Cornette Garbage tapes, arena footage, TV matches, etc.

What did you think of Carpentier, Pete?

Hi Nikolaj, welcome to the board and I'm really glad you've joined (this is Parv by the way). Funny enough, I've been looking closely at some of the stats this week and they recently added this feature where it breaks down listens by city. This is from 1st January 2014. I was like "hmm, who is this guy from Denmark?" And then almost the next day, you joined here. Look forward to reading your opinions on guys in the GWE project.

Well they said that I might be allergic to amoxicillin and since then I've never taken it again, so who knows why that happened. It was pretty mental though.

This one time I got really ill in school, and for some reason wasn't sleeping or eating much. I went down to about 7 stone, which is about 100lbs. I had also had this cold for ages and it wasn't shaking. I went to see the doctor and he put me on amoxicillin. One day, in a chemistry class, I fainted. I got sent home. That night, for whatever reason, my dad recommended I take a tot of whiskey to sort things out. Maybe he didn't know I was taking the amoxicillin. Anyway, I had the whiskey. Next day, I was seeing things. Big massive centipedes and things crawling up the walls. It was just like the Breathe video. I could "see the germs" hanging from food I was given. Ended up having to stay in hospital the night. There's another story attached to this, but I'll save that for another time. But Prodigy's Breathe will forever be associated with that experience for me. It's uncanny how much the stuff I was seeing was like the stuff in the video. Never been so scared ever.

John Cena vs. Shawn Michaels (04/01/07) I don't like modern WWE main event style, I'm not fond of HBK, and I'm predisposed not to like Cena much. So I thought if I was going to do this, I might as well go the full hog and start right in the deep end. On paper this has nothing at all to do with why I'm a wrestling fan, but I'm going to try my best to keep an open mind. This is, of course, from Wrestlemania 23 in Detroit. Shawn comes out with his DX music, -1/2* just for that -- I kid, I kid. Lillian Garcia is on the introductions here, I think it's a shame they stopped wheeling Fink out for Mania. JR says that he doesn't think he's ever seen a better "big match wrestler" than Shawn Michaels. Apparently at this time Cena and Michaels were Tag Team champs. I literally couldn't hate HBK's entrance more here, so I won't say any more about it. It's going on forever and ever though and I can barely hear the record-breaking crowd. There's a Ford Mustag speeding through the streets of Detroit. This is putrid, horrible stuff. Come on for fuck's sake get on with it, I just want the match to begin. Car comes screeching into the arena. I hate this, I really do. Cena's music pipes in and he gets out of the car. Michaels stands in the ring sucking in his cheeks. Couldn't care less about anything so far. This production stuff is the worst of the worst shit. GET ON WITH IT. Ref holds up the spinner belt and it looks like we're finally going to get going. Michaels sits on the turnbuckle and makes a sort of clown face and waves to some fans. Stays on the turnbuckle. Cena looks at him with some focus. Michaels offers a left-handed hand shake but then slaps Cena in the face. DX crotch shot. I'm assuming he's the heel here -- he's certainly the fucking heel from where I'm sitting. Hammerlock by Michaels to start. Cena swings and misses. Michaels with a flurry of punches sends Cena down. Cena looks pensive. I can't really understand what he's going for here, or what's going through his mind. This has been a persistent problem with all the Cena I've seen to date. What are you thinking about John? I mean what the fuck is this? Champion for the emo generation? Elbow and collar tieup. Shoulder barges into the shoulder of Cena. Into a headlock. Headlock takeover. Headlock down on the mat now. Another headlock takedown. Michaels traps the arm into the headlock to work this shoulder a bit more. But some rope running now results in a big clothesline for Cena on Michaels. Now, I have to pause this here. There is WAY too much of this fucking psych-out "epic" shit going on in this match. I just don't like this style of working. Okay, he hit a clothesline. Oooooh. Does he have to stand and look thoughtful after it like he's writing War and Peace after it? All this milking of every move is very tiresome, how long must it go on for until this match actually starts? After about 30 seconds more of this, we get a shoulder barge from Cena. Dick 80,000 Detroit crowd boos him and cheers Michaels. Hiptoss to the outside by Michaels. Big reverse knife edge by Michaels and an inzaguri. Now a big moonsault onto the announce table. Again I want to pause here. About 10 minutes into this match what's happened? 1. Psyche out, Michaels controls some of the match vaguely focusing on Cena's shoulder. 2. Clothesline!! Oooooh 3. More psyche out. 4. Straight to brawling outside ring and a moonsault from the ring to the table on the outside. To me this has had zero flow or psychology or anything. What was the point of the early shoulder work? Why did they have to pause for about a minute to register Cena's clothesline? What's John THINKING about so much? We're going straight into this big high spot after an opening 7-8 minutes consisting entirely of trying to generate the feeling of an epic through ... pensive looks. It's crap. It might have worked once ever, when it was Warrior vs. Hogan, but I'm not buying it here so far in this match. Cena has hurt his back now. Back in the ring and Michaels hits another Flair chop. Elbow smash. Another big chop. Cena is dazed and wobbly from the big assult outside. Michaels smashes Cena on the knee now. He attacks the leg now. I have to say, his assult on this leg is quite intense. He whacks the leg around the ring post. Knee drop on the leg. Chop block on the leg. This is some good work here by Michaels and Cena's selling is very good. Big chop by Michaels here. He wraps Cena's leg around the rope and Cena cries out in pain. Another chop block by Michaels. And this has been well worked. If the crowd had been paying attention, they'd be booing the fuck out of Michaels by this point because he's really heeling it up here too. Cena comes back with a couple of strikes, they boo him -- which is the incorrect response. Big charge by Michaels. Cena's left leg is out here. Big chop by Michaels. He charges again but Cena evades and Michaels blows his shoulder out on the ringpost, looks like he's bleeding hardway from it. Cena continutes selling this leg. Big clothesline by Cena. And some big right hands. Go on John! Beat the shit out of him! Cena hits a slam of some sort. Nurses his leg a bit. Does his "you can't see me" thing and hits the five knuckle shuffle. Okay, that was crap. Took me out of a match that I was getting into. Michaels goes for sweet chin music but it lands in the face of the ref who is out. Cena goes for the FU but Michaels counters into a DDT. Ref is still out. Michaels is bloody and snarling. He goes outside to get the ring steps. Drags Cena out. Piledriver!!! On the steel steps. Spike piledriver on the steps! Wow. Cena is out. How can the fans cheer this prick? Cena looks like he might be bleeding from the top of the head -- who was it that said that piledrivers don't hurt the top of the head? Another ref comes running out and Michaels covers for 2. Cena has taken a fucking battering in this match. Michaels gets him up for an Irish whip, reversed! Michaels hits a flying clothesline and a kip up. Cena is out. Michaels goes up to the top rope. Randy Savage elbow drop! Michaels stands around posing now. Gorilla and Jesse wouldn't like that. Oh, he's going over to "charge up" his sweet chin music. Retarded spot. And Cena goes over to clothesline him, massive clothesline. Chop by Michaels. Big rights back and forth now. Cena goes for the FU but Michaels counters with a cradle for two. Cena goes for the FU again and hits it! Crowd actually pops, I think they do anyway. Michaels is out. Cena crawls over to cover. One, two, NO! Cena puts him on the turnbuckle, is he going for a superplex? No, FU! From the top! No, Michaels punches him down. From the top now by HBK. Crossbody. Momentum takes him over, Cena stands up with him in the slam position. FU again? No! Michaels counters. Some nearfalls now, Cena powers out of an inside cradle. Hot sequence. Michaels misses an inzaguri and Cena locks in the STFU. Is he going to tap? Michaels struggles. Crowd is really hot now and cheer wildly as Michaels makes it to the ropes. Ref is a bit overzealous in shouting at Cena. Michaels hits sweet chin music again now. And Cena is out again. I want to pause here once more. While there has been some very hot stuff in the preceding ten minutes or so, I want to note that it has essentially been a long series of both guys going for their finishers, and then ... going for their finishers again. I just want to note that now so I can come back to it later. Back to the match. Michaels crawls over to cover. One, two, NO! No doubt at all that Cena would kick out. They get up at the nine count. Some counters and counter-counters now but it results in another STFU by Cena. Michaels taps. And there it is, Cena wins. JR says "what a match". I thought this was a mixed bag. The first ten minutes were torture for me. Then things really picked up with Michaels appearing to want to take Cena to wrestling school and destroying his leg. It was almost like the match started properly at that point, after the big bullshit moonsault on the announce table to pop the crowd. This segment of the match, Michaels working over Cena's leg -- I'm going to call it the heat sequence, because even if the crowd weren't booing him, HBK was "structurally" the heel here -- was really good stuff. And Cena's comeback in the stretch was heated and great. Then this sense of energy and heat drained out of the match when Cena went to his five knuckle shuffle crap. Maybe it's just a sign of the times, but that really took me out of a match that was heating up. Then, this match goes into another gear. Michaels gets colour, and then sees red by delivering the piledriver to Cena on the steps. And the heat comes back into the match. However, from this point on they essentially go into one LONG finishing sequence. And this has some great, great stuff in it, but why can Cena only do two moves (FU, STFU) and Michaels only do two moves (sweet chin music, top rope elbow drop)? I don't get why the match had to shift so quickly into false-finish-ville. They'd built it great to that point. I thought the near falls were very effectively worked, but it felt like they went to each well once too often to me? How many FUs were there? How many STFUs? How many sweet chin musics? Has anyone heard of, y'know, a suplex, or a bodyslam, or ... just any other moves? So that finishing stretch, while "hot" also bugged me quite a bit. Finally, the crowd were moronic in this match. I was certainly cheering Cena on during this and thought he worked pretty much perfectly as a babyface here -- minus all the pensive BS crap early on -- his selling is very good, his clotheslines remind a bit of Lex Luger's (praise from me). Michaels was very good on offense here in stretches, but I thought he ran out of ideas towards the end of the match. But it was interesting to see a match where he controlled about 75% of offence. The good stuff in this match is great, the bad stuff to me is terrible. So on balance, I'm going to say ... ***3/4 I might check out the much-talked about RAW match from 07 as well, because I do think these two have a great match in them, just don't think this is quite it. This is about two thirds of a great match and one third all of the things I hate about modern WWE main event style.

Yes, Charles, this is always Johnny's argument, "was it over, then it worked". I'll never take that leap because it leads to all sorts of absurdities like calling Ivan Putski a good worker. I think a babyface should sell and show vulnerability, simple as that. If a promotion books in a way that doesn't play to that -- see for example Crusher and Dick the Bruiser in AWA -- then I'm not going to make allowances just because that's what they were going for or just because the crowd liked it.

Pretty interesting thread this. I can't remember the last time I watched a match without taking notes. I like to think I can get lost in a match while simulataneously being analytical. I can do both things at once, and don't really see emotion and analysis as being wholly separated. If you are the sort of person who has to turn the emotional part of themselves off in order to be analytical, then I'd recommend doing notes after the match. I think the level of analysis in reviews outside this forum is generally bad to awful. I've picked apart Scott Keith reviews in the past and am glad to see Sleeze doing the same thing with what looks like an extremely lazy review from whoever on 411.com. ------------- But that said, I'm not sure if we can ever wholly escape the "hidden checklist". I've been in quite a lot of arguments / debates with my fellow Titans where they've accused me of being closed-minded and narrow in how I think babyfaces should work. Even taking the massive pinch of salt you always need when Johnny is sticking up for someone he likes, it is true that many of my criticisms of Backlund derive from being philosophically opposed to how he works as a babyface. I'm not sure if I see a way of getting around that.

They are Italians in New York, what do you want to do? Cast fucking Will Smith?

My nomination of Malenko was semi-strategic insomuch as I have defended Dory Funk Jr and Malenko is an interesting comparison point.

Don't understand why you aren't behind James Caan as Bruno, perfect casting imo, because James Caan looks enough like Bruno to carry the essence of him. If he bulked up a bit, you'd totally buy him as Bruno. I wonder if Pete is thinking about Bruno now and James Caan now ... I'm thinking about Bruno from the 70s and Caan from the 70s. Bruno spending time with his family. Bruno hanging out with the Rat Pack in NYC. Bruno after a work out at his local gym. A reminder of what Bruno looked like.

http://placetobenation.com/titans-of-wrestling-37-wwf-in-march-1981/ Parv, Pete, Johnny and Kelly are back once again for some 1981 goodness from WWF. On the docket tonight: 03-07 KING KONG MOSCA vs JOSE ESTRADA WWF TV 03-21 ANDRE THE GIANT vs HULK HOGAN PHILADELPHIA SPECTRUM 03-21 BOB BACKLUND vs SGT SLAUGHTER WWF TITLE/CAGE PHILADELPHIA SPECTRUM 03-28 MOONDOGS vs DENUCCI/STALLONE WWF TV 04-04 MARTEL/GAREA vs MOONDOGS TAG TITLE WWF TV Highlights include: - Bios for King Kong Angelo Mosca and some jobber - Dick Woehrle sitting on a turnbuckle - EPIC Kal Watch - The search for "The True Heir of Jack Brisco" - The long awaited return of THE MAILBAG (this time with actual real listener questions)

Pete, how much -- if at all -- do you hold it against Robinson that he was kind of upper mid-card-y for his whole career? I think I have quite a lot of just random Robinson here and there on various different collections of 70s footage from AWA and elsewhere that I haven't looked at yet. I just wonder if a little bit of Robinson's high-end stuff from Japan is carrying him a long way?

Chad and I went through the Meltzers of that time period and Tully wasn't exactly blackballed from WCW, they just couldn't reach a deal with him. They negotiate for weeks and then they break down and it goes nowhere and that's it. It's weird the way that plays out. But essentially WCW can't reach a price that Tully will accept. I seem to recall that Arn and Tully weren't happy with their push in WWF or something, and were on their way out anyway. Tully failing the drug test sped things up for him. By late 1990, Tully has gone over to being a born-again Christian doing sermons on the church circuit. I think they do try to bring Tully back in another time as well but can't reach a deal again. He randomly shows up in AWA at some point too.