JerryvonKramer

Where are the best places to read about British wrestling history? That Heritage site? Wrestling Heritage is a good place to get info. The old Britishwrestlingarchive.co.uk message board posts are helpful as well. i usually just google "Bob Kirkwood wrestler" and see what comes up. Another great source is ohtani's jacket.

I think it's one possible knock on Brisco that he so completely works to his opponent that you could say that if the opponent has a bad match, he's not going to carry them.

I've just noticed that Dean Malenko isn't nominated. Well why not? Nominated via 90s Yearbooks.

In terms of potential vs. career I'd go with Barry Windham or Brian Pillman, neither of them had the run that you'd have hoped for, neither of them had the career that they might have done. Another guy I'd point to is Alex Wright. Under different circumstances, his career might have been very different.

I couldn't remember Will doing a Triple H impression (it was a long night), so I went back to listen to that bit. Man, that was one of the more intense and heated debates we've ever had on a show. For those short on time, or backed up on podcasts or whatever, I've isolated that 10 minutes here for quick access:

I just want everyone to know how great The Assassin was as a character: Fucking phenomenal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXA3_PeHL9w "You know I've got nicknames for my hands. This is Cannibal and this is Animal. And you know what they tell me every day? They tell me that they're hungry. And I tell them 'be patient ... because I'm going to feed you. And what I'm going to feed you is a banquet. A banquet of Jimmy Valiant's FACE! His eyes, his nose, his lips'. These hands are going to be twice their size by the time this taped-fist match is over Valiant, because they are going to GORGE themselves, GORGE themselves on your face and on your flesh. I've NEVER hated a man like I hate you Valiant. And you better believe, Valiant, that when I put you down you ain't never and I mean never going to get up again." He was a fucking metaphysical poet. Paul Jones just standing there dreaming of ever being able to cut a promo of that quality. This is the one we marked out over on Titans. Never knew Jimmy Hart worked Georgia. Assassin is so cool. "I specialize in various forms of pain". Awesome.

http://placetobenation.com/pwo-ptbn-roundtable-wwe-coms-top-50-heels-in-wrestling-history-part2/ Inspired by the Squared Circle Gazette Radio's recent show on the same topic, Parv (Titans of Wrestling, Where the Big Boys Play), Will (Good Will Wrestling, Wrestling with the Past), Johnny (Titans of Wrestling), and Steven Graham (Pro Wrestling Super Show) converge for this epic one-off roundtable to provide an alternative take on WWE.com's Top 50 Heels in Wrestling History. In this second part, they run through 20 down to 1. Fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy night. 20. Edge 19. Jim Cornette 18. Killer Kowalski 17. Mr. Perfect 16. Sherri Martel 15. Chris Jericho 14. The (Original) Sheik 13. The Fabulous Freebirds 12. JBL 11. Rick Rude 10. Jake "The Snake" Roberts 9. Gorgeous George 8. Bobby Heenan 7."Superstar" Billy Graham 6.Triple H 5."Hollywood" Hogan 4.The Million Dollar Man, Ted DiBiase 3. Vince McMahon 2. Ric Flair & The Four Horsemen 1. "Rowdy" Roddy Piper

I feel very pushed for time these days and podcasts seem to build up and build up in my ipod. Between trying to go to work and live my life, meet up with friends, watch stuff for my various shows, record and edit said shows, watch stuff for GWE project, and keep up with the EPL and now NFL, I'm finding that my week doesn't have much spare time. I am 3 weeks behind on watching The Apprentice, a TV show I usually watch every year. I feel like I'm constantly on "catch up" for everything, and am missing the windows for when the shows stop being available. I listen to lots of podcasts outside of wrestling. Usually in the car, sometimes in the office, I like to go to cafes and listen to something having lunch or drinking a pot of tea or something ... For years I used to do a lot of listening playing Football Manager, but I'm not finding the time. Maybe it's because it is term-time right now and I'm rushed off my feet. My non-wrestling rotation is currently: 1. Football Weekly - I've listened to this for years. Comes out twice a week and I listen after I've caught up with the week's football. Things as they are, it's typically Thursday after a weekend before I even have time to watch the EPL highlights. Then I'll listen to the two shows on the Friday. 2. The Football Ramble - these guys have good banter, I and listen to them after Football Weekly every week. I also sometimes listen to "The Game" but it's so dry and up its own arse that I often don't bother. 3. The Frank Skinner show -- I listen to this every week. 4. Mark Kermode film reviews -- I've really fallen behind on films this year and currently have a backlog of 23 episodes. For years, I listened to this every week, but you can see how I've slipped somehow. I also used to listen to Filmspotting, but I have 47 in build up and it looks hopeless to get back on it. 5. The Dice Tower -- I listen to this to keep up with what's going on in the board game world, but I get massive build ups here. I have something like 34 episodes backed up. I tend to dip in and out of these guys, because not everything they do is vital for me to listen to. But if there's something of interest, or a particular review I want to listen to, I'll listen. 6. The Pete Carroll Show - since I'm now a Seahawks fan, I listen to this after every game. 7. The Ross Tucker Podcast - this comes out 5 times a week and I tend to let the whole week "save up" and then listen to all of them before watching the NEXT week's NFL coverage. I typically watch the whole Seahawks game, and then highlights of all the others games. Tucker seems to be a constant companion in the car at the moment. 8. The Seahawkers Podcast - I also listen to these after each game, but am currently ... 3 weeks behind. 9. Philosophy Bites - I might go a few weeks between listening and then listen to a few at once. 10 shows in build up. 10. Richard Herring's Leicester Square Theatre Podcast -- Herring is a comedian and I was a big fan of his double act with Stewart Lee back in the day. He had a great podcast a couple of years back with a guy called Andrew Collins, but they fell out and stopped. But now he interviews other comedians and sometimes they are quite good. But he sometimes feels like an old girlfriend that I've split up with, or something like that. Currently 8 episodes in build up. 11. Sundays Supplement -- this is a weird podcast in which these two people, one a woman, one a man, go through some newspaper supplements. It has its own charm. 13 in build up. 12. Hypnobobs -- this guy did some excellent history of Batman stuff before and occasionally does other stuff of interest, but generally I pick and choose depending on what the topic is. My wrestling rotation consists of: - Austin, depends on the guest. I have 40 that I've not listened to in build up. - Ross, ditto. 23 in build up. - Cornette, ditto. 41 in build up including all the MLW shit I don't bother with at all. - Wrestling Culture, typically every episode. - PWO-PTBN shows that don't have me on them, although I'll typically skip stuff on current WWE/CMLL/whatever or on stuff that I have limited interest in (e.g. ECW) - Then with other stuff I might check something out depending on the topic. This list used to be a lot bigger, but I've given up on a lot of other shows for one reason or another. I've actually kind of screwed my wrestling podcast listening a bit because I tend to record shows with guys I'd want to listen to. So I love it when they do shows without me! (As I'm sure everyone else does, ha ha)

Some common narratives. People will probably be able to think of examples of all of these just using Ric Flair alone: - The challenger is good, but the champ is the better wrestler. This was Dory's calling card in the early 70s. But they'd still go to it later on. I get the impression this is how Thesz was booked too. - The challenger is good, but the champ can take punishment and go longer and he's smarter. This is part and parcel of NWA champ psychology. He's seen it all before. The spunky babyface can wear himself out trying to give the champ everything he's got, the champ has always got another gear he go into. Let's use Flair vs. Luger. GAB 88 is "slipped on a banana peel" or "heel champ was beat and snuck out with an niggling little technicality". Starrcade 88 is this. So what that Flair used a chair, he came out with a win after destroying Luger's leg. He leveraged his know-how, and showed why he's a world class wrestler. It doesn't always have to be something cheap either. It can be a counter or reversal which better plays into the idea of the NWA Champ being smarter, than it does him being lucky. This variant of the narrative seems as common as "banana peel" to me, if not more common. You see a lot of flash pins. - Parity. This is when you get the champ vs. a world class wrestler who could easily win the world title -- usually in these sorts of feuds you get a title switch, but not always. It's Dory vs. Jack, Race vs. Terry Funk, it's Flair vs. Garvin or Steamboat. This is when the NWA gives you your classic matches. - Cheap finish. So the "banana peel" narrative makes the champ look weak and lucky, "if only" it wasn't for that, the face who clearly had him beat would have won. But various cheap finishes are a way out of that and help to keep the champ looking alright and sets up a rematch. Double KO, outside interference causes a DQ, count out, Dusty finish, etc. etc. Reading the Meltzer piece on Bob Giegel, it seems like they increased the range of these finishes after Muchnick resigned in 1975. But to be honest, lots of the Brisco defenses 73-5 had finishes like this. Like the cheapest of the cheap. - Champ vs. underdog who he underestimates. I haven't seen any examples of this outside of Flair. Ricky Morton comes to mind. -------- My observation from watching stuff thus far is that Race was booked the weakest out of any of the champs -- weaker than Flair -- or at least that's how he worked it. With him, you'll see a lot of shit like the babyface falling on top for a cover but the momentum being enough to carry Race over for a fluky pin. In some matches he's incredibly weak (see vs. Backlund, vs. Steamboat, and from the looks of the clipping vs. DiBiase in 78), but even then it's not always. The three matches I watched of his vs. the Von Erich brothers towards the end of his long reign (80-81) saw him beat the younger up-and-coming guys fair and square -- David is too injured to continue, clean pin over Kevin, clean pin over Kerry with no "banana peel" narrative.

I watched every Brisco title defense in the US on tape here. I'd agree that he's put in the role of the de facto heel NWA champ, but not that he's "working heel". The closest he gets to being an out and out heel is vs. Spiros Arion in Australia and even then he's kind of neutral. He's not doing anything to rile the fans, and he doesn't work like I've seen heel Brisco work later in the early 1980s. The most heelish thing I've seen Brisco do as champ is dump a guy outside the ring to cut off momentum, and once or twice he's got so fired up he's used the fists illegally. But he's not really going to eye gouges or face rakes, let alone doing anything overtly heelish. I mean compared to, say, Lou Thesz, he's an angel, and it's not like you'd think of Thesz as anything more than "subtle heel". He's definitely booked into the same spot as the heel NWA champ would be, but he's still effectively a face or tweener. Handshakes. Clean breaks for the best part. Kris is right though in general. He also tends to be booked babyface much more in Florida, although there are some matches of him as a babyface on the road, for example against Jerry Lawler in Memphis and against Race in Houston. He wrestled Buddy Colt a lot in Georgia, and Johnny Valentine in Mid-Atlantic. He was a face in those matches. They'd basically put Brisco wherever they needed him.

Current Favorite Wrestler to Watch Jack Brisco. Convinced that if we had the amount of footage of him as we do for someone like Flair that he'd be making everyone's top 5 easy. But people didn't keep tapes in the 70s. Last Fun Match You Saw Jack Brisco vs. Bill Watts where Watts is on colour with Gordon Solie after the fact. Hilarious stuff from Bill Watts there. Recommend tracking that one down, especially if you are a Watts fan. Wrestler You Want to See More of There are lots but it's a toss up between Jim Breaks and Billy Robinson. Last Live Show Attended That one with Liger in London last year. Match You Are Looking Forward to Watching Soon the Most I'm watching Clash 17 for WTBBP later and I can't wait to see that tag match again (Enforcers vs. Steamboat / Dustin) Last Fun Interview/Promo You Saw Terry Funk moments after winning the NWA world title claiming he's going to be an "offensive" champion while objecting to a rematch. Last Interesting Thing You Read about Wrestling Meltzer's Giegel obit piece. Last Worthwhile Wrestling Podcast You Heard Anything I've been on in the past month ... I joke, I joke. Probably Flair on Austin's show, especially when he got into ring psychology. Most Fun You've Had Watching Wrestling Lately Watching from WWF stuff circa March 1981 for Titans -- Dominic Denucci teaming with a nameless jobber and, like a man possessed, going after the Moondogs 2 on 1 ... Backlund vs. Slaughter in a cage match in Philly ... Kal Rudman coming out with lines of actual poetry laced with 1940s references. Hour of viewing that just flew by.

Sorry Johnny, but compared to the other stuff I've been watching Lawler's matwork wasn't up to scratch either applying the holds or selling. I'm not saying Lawler was terrible at those things his whole career, but in 1974 he wasn't anywhere close to a guy like Brisco. I really didn't think the Lawler match was very good, and I think Lawler was the problem not Brisco, who has been extremely consistent in all this stuff.

Tonight I ran through what I believe are all of Brisco's title defenses that exist on tape. It's not a huge amount of footage, but enough to get a sense of how he was booked as champion and how he worked against different opponents, let me say something about each of those things: 1. It appears that Brisco was perceived as a "defensive champ", Terry Funk calls Brisco out on it after defeating him for the title, and numerous different commentators from some dude in Australia, to Solie, to Lance Russell mention that Brisco is "defensive". That's interesting, because it's not quite the same idea of what we think of as "bitch champ" (or whatever the PC-approved term is), but in practice the outcomes are quite similar. Time and again we see Brisco take a lot of punishment but come away with a flash pin or a cheap win. And fuck me do we see some cheap wins -- DQ after opponent doesn't acknowledge the five-count in a rope break is a new all-time lowest cheap win. Double KO for fuck's sake. Last minute countout. Ref reverses decision on a pin after spotting illegal foreign object. We're talking cheapest of the cheap. But Brisco didn't really work heel that much either. Some subtle heel touches here and there (like dumping a guy to the outside), but he's at worst a tweener in those matches. But he also worked as a fired up babyface if the opponent was a heel. And even if he was a face, his basic gameplan was still "defensive". Even if you take the booking philosphy and money reasons for booking the champ in that way out of it, kayfabe-wise, it does make sense for the champ to be defensive. You have to beat him, he doesn't have to beat you. That's the legacy of Thesz. And seeing Brisco around the horn, he had more than a bit of Thesz in him. 2. Brisco was basically chameleon-like in those matches tonight. He became whatever the opponent needed him to be. Against a young buck like Muraco in 74, he became the wily vet. Against the finesse of Carpentier, he brought grit. Against the sly heel tactics of Lawler or Bill Watts, he brought fire and integrity. Against the onslaught of Arion in Australia, he brought endurance and that ability to "hang in there". Against the big forearms of Valentine, he came back with his own elbows and forearms. Against Giant Baba, he brought a ground game. Against the bombs of Race, he brought ... his own bombs. Pretty amazing to see him morph into whatever the situation demands of him. I know I keep on saying it, but ... complete worker. And the Harley Race comparison is still the most pertinent one. Race went into St. Louis, Memphis, Florida, Australia, wherever, and he worked a Harley Race match. Doesn't matter the context, Race was working Race's match. Brisco went to all those places and worked whatever match they needed him to. I think that's as definitive a case as anyone could make for why Brisco was a superior work to Race -- and Race was one of the very best, but Brisco was elite level. I've talked about all his other qualities earlier in the thread, but "versatility and adaptability" would be right up there too. Honestly, I wonder whether he was even better than Flair at adapting his style for the given opponent. Flair has a bit of Race in him for one, and even though he does give us many different styles, I think he only adapted his style for guys he respected and would give the muscle-heads the same match -- I've said it before, he always gives Sting the "cookie cutter" Flair match, which is the same as the match he gives Hawk, etc. Maybe it's because he was the babyface and heels were expected to lead back then, but I don't think there's such a thing as a standard "Brisco match", it depends entirely on the opponent.

Tonight I'm going to be looking at Brisco's NWA title defenses. We will return to Japan next time. Jack Brisco vs Buddy Colt (12/18/73)[??] Pretty grainy footage this. I'd imagine this is in Florida not Georgia. Brisco had lots of matches against Colt in both places, but much more likely to have the footage from Florida, I'll take a stab at the Tampa match, but it could be any of about eight. Colt starts out by putting Brisco in a headscissors which he sells dramatically. He bridges up out of it and quickly goes to a grapevine on the leg. Colt looks a bit like Buddy Rodgers. Presently, he manages to turn it around and switches to a headlock now. Brisco slowly powers out, but Colt synches it back in. Shoulder charge. Brisco gets a slam in but Colt answers with a slam of his own. Headlock takeover and back to the headlock. Brisco escapes this time by throwing Colt's leg to the floor, but Colt goes back to it. Brisco breaks free again to deliver a big butterfly suplex. Very nice high spot. Knee drop. But Colt comes back with a thumb to the eye. Backbreaker. Cover but Jack has his foot on the ropes. Sunset flip by Colt but Brisco reverses it for three and the crowd cheer wildly. Nothing special here. I guess the main thing to note would be that this was an NWA title match with a face champ who let the local heel eat up about 80% of the offense and came out with a flash pin. After the match Colt gets in some cheap shots to get his heat back. Jack Brisco vs. Don Muraco (05/28/74) This looks like Florida, Solie on commentary. Muraco must be quite young here. Looks stacked. According to the records he was subbing for Bobby Duncum here. From the way Solie is talking, this seems like a face vs. face match. Brisco targets the back early and gets in a backbreaker, Muraco targets the leg and hits a couple of avalanches. Goes for a spinning toehold. Backslide gets two. Figure-four by Brisco!! Muraco struggles but manages ot reverse it -- in the process somewhat invalidating Ric Flair's recent claim on Austin's show that he was the first to do reversals on the figure-four. And, as if to compound it, Solie says that Muraco is "the first man in history ever to reverse the figure-four!". So there you have it. Maybe Flair wasn't watching. But now ... in one of the lamest finishes I've ever seen, Brisco gets to the ropes but Muraco is facing the other way so he doesn't see it. The ref counts to five and then DQs Muraco for failing to acknowledge the rope break. Seriously, possibly the worst finish of all time. "The Eddie Graham was a wonderful finish guy". Sure he was. Either this only went five minutes or it was heavily clipped and Solie acted like it wasn't. I'll assume it was the later, so won't rate this, but holy shit was that finish terrible. Jack Brisco vs. Giant Baba (08/08/75) This is from St. Louis and comes with an introduction from Larry Matysik. He explains how Brisco lost the title to Baba on the first day of his tour of Japan earlier that year but then regained it on his last match before coming back. So Baba agreed for this "rubber match" in the WRESTLING CAPITAL OF THE WORLD, St. Louis. Kiel. This is just highlights, footage is real choppy, and of course has Matysik on commentary. Baba works Brisco's arm to start. Hammerlock into a wristlock. Brisco reacts by kicking out Baba's leg from under him and hamstring snap. THANK YOU Larry Matysik, all these matches I've reviewed and I never knew what that move was called. "Hamstring snap". Mark that everyone. Of course it's called a hamstring snap! Brisco continues to work the leg. Goes for the figurefour but Baba comes back with chops. Flying tackle by Baba but Brisco gets a rolling cradle for the first fall. Baba with more chops now and some stomps. He starts choking Brisco -- interesting to see Baba work as a de facto heel here. Nerve clamp. But Brisco comes back and chops him down. But Baba hits his lariat to make it 1-1. Baba continues his assault with chops. Side Russian legsweep. Swinging neckbreaker. Brisco hits a dropkick to break some of the momentum, collision and both men down. Brisco goes for a knee drop but misses and blows his knee out. Half-crab by Baba. Brisco goes for a splash but Baba gets his legs up. Brisco hits what Matysik calls "a Greco Roman back bodydrop" and I would call a "back suplex". Matysik remarks "shades of Lou Thesz!". And that'll do for three. You'd have to think this was pretty heavily clipped too, but they worked a very different match in front of that St. Louis crowd from either of the ones they workd for the All Japan crowds. It was a bit weird to see Baba sort of dwindle into being a generic foreign heel using chokes and nerve holds, but that's what happened. Third fall had more action, but with this being only 7 minutes from a 2 out of 3 fall match it's difficult to comment really. I can't imagine Baba would have let that blown knee in he third fall go, for example, but we don't see any follow-up. Jack Brisco vs Edourd Carpentier (04/04/75) This is completely silent footage, this is from St. Louis. Handshake between the two of them to start. Hammerlock by Carpentier, who looks a little squat, almost like The Crusher. Headlock takeover by Brisco. Inside cradle by Carpentier. Brisco ralles with some big left hands. Front facelock. Handstand by Carpentier. Crossface chickenwing by Brisco! Into a headlock now. Irish whip by Carpentier. SAVATE KICK! What the flying fuck?! I'm going to rewind that and watch it again to see if I was seeing things. Wow, eat your heart out Shawn Michaels! Ha ha. Snapmare by Carpentier. And now he does this little thing where stands with both of his legs either side of Brisco's neck and twists off to the left. Brisco sells this as if Carpentier has broken his neck. I love Brisco's prolonged selling of moves. Carpentier targets the neck now more with a headlock. But Brisco comes back with shoulder charges. He charges him into the turnbuckle. Irish whip to the other corner, but Carpentier flips up over him. Backwards handspring somesault and Brisco charges. Savate kick! Holy shit, Carpentier! I can't believe this guy. Irish whip and Carpentier with a double palm strike to Brisco's throat. He goes down. Forward somersault splash by Carpentier! And again. Wow, 1, 2, 3! Ref raises Carpentier's arm. Brisco is dying in the middle of the ring. Brisco nurses his ribs. This has to be 2 out of 3 falls I'm guessing. Brisco is still nursing his ribs. He's already had his neck hurt, now his ribs. Brisco is seriously one of the best sellers of an injury ever. He's reminded me of a lot of future faces so far, but in this match he's reminding me of Randy Savage. Carpentier stays on top of him. He's trying to keep back because the ribs are still hurt. Some desperation offense from Brisco is cut short by Carpentier smashing him in the ribs. Brisco crumples to the mat and down to the outside. Back in and he goes for a headlock but Carpentier gets an arm drag and now gets on a bearhug. Totally makes sense to do a bearhug here. He looks like he's about to do a Boston crab, but no he catapults Brisco just up and over into the mat! I've never seen that spot before, usually the catapult is into the turnbuckle, not into ... *nowhere*. Brisco lands on his injured ribs, naturally. Karate chop by Carpentier. More of these flip splash things now. He misses one which allows Brisco to get an atomic drop in. Carpentier sells this like he's been electrocuted. The full shaky leg and arm sell. Brisco covers for the second fall. Brisco with some knees and strikes now and he goes to dump Carpentier ... who skins the cat. This is ridiculous. Lefts and rights from Brisco now. But Carpentier gives him some punches in the corner before doing a back flip into a handspring backflip and another savate kick. Back drop. Big clubbing blows by Carpentier. Both guys tumble outside and fight ... Brisco manages to get back in the ring for a count out victory as some fans throw trash into the ring. Well first of all, wow, Carpentier. I don't know if he was great or anything, it's just a legitimate shock to see a guy in this early 70s environment, built like he is, doing back flips, skinning the cat and super kicks. It's kind of mindblowing. I have to assume there was some clipping, but we got a lot of this and it looked like a REALLY good match in the **** range. The selling from Brisco is again off the charts, and this helps make the psychology work really well. Carpentier has some offense I've never seen anyone else do, ever -- like the catapult into nowhere, and the neck twist thing. I should also mention that this is the closest we've seen Brisco to working as subtle heel as champ, because this was more or less your Race/Flair match vs. hero and making them look good, complete with cheap win. When Brisco went to dump Carpentier, that's a sure enough signal of some subtle heelery, despite the goody-two-shoes handshake at the start. And despite the fact I couldn't hear anything, I can't imagine those fans throwing rubbish were cheering -- HOWEVER, this was St. Louis, so they might have been upset by the countout finish rather than booing Brisco. Jack Brisco vs Spiros Arion (08/21/73 If you want obscure footage, how about this ... Brisco vs. Arion from Australia! This is black and white with an Aussie commentator. Arion starts out on top with some uppercuts and clubbing blows. The commentator says that this has been a good match and he wishes we could have joined him from the start -- he explains that Arion has been the aggressor from the start and Brisco has been on the defensive, using technical wrestling. He says that Brisco was notably the first one to resort to illegal tactics and that if this was a fight he'd have Arion ahead on points. Interesting. It's kind of hard to tell who is who here. I think it's Brisco who gives Arion a shinbreaker. Ref bump!! The ref falls out of the ring. Arion gets an atomic drop but the ref isn't there to count. Ref comes back in and Brisco kicks out at two. The commentator shouts that Arion isn't just wrestling this match for himself but for every Australian watching! Irish whip into the corner. Another atomic drop by Arion and he covers but Brisco has his leg on the ropes. Arion -- like so many future idiots, including Sting after him -- things he's won the belt and starts to celebrate, but the ref points to Brisco's leg on the rope. The match continues. Arion smashes Brischo into two different turnbuckles. Elbow smash, and Brisco goes for a quick inside cradle, but Arion breaks it. Arion tries another elbow but Brisco locks on the abdominal stretch. Arion hip tosses to counter. He picks up Brisco for another atomic drop but Brisco kicks off the top rope to turn it into a back suplex of sorts which ends up knocking both guys out. "I don't believe it, the first time I've ever seen it in my 21 years commentating, a double knock out!" Man oh man, we're seeing all of the possible cheap finishes tonight. I thought it was really interesting seeing Arion as a babyface in Australia here and so strongly backed by the fans. I have to say I don't recall seeing too many double KO finishes ever either. Between this, the Carpentier match and the Muraco match, you can start building quite an effective case that Brisco was booked similarly to Race and Flair in some places. They certainly had the cheap finishes and in a lot of these matches he's been mostly selling with the opponent on offense 70-80% of the time. Brisco isn't heelish though, just kinda neutral. Jack Brisco vs. Jerry Lawler (02/03/75) This is from Memphis. Lance Russell on commentary. Some massive heel heat for Lawler. Brisco gets cheered. Apparently there were over 10,000 people in the Mid-South Colisieum to see this and it looks absolutely rammed! Brisco is a house of fire to start. Dropkick. Armdrag. Dropkick. Lawler bails. Brisco snapmares him back in. Another snapmare. Great kneedrop by Brisco. Chinlock. Stays in this for some time. Lawler answers with an armbar. Crowd dynamics are interesting here because some fans are cheering Lawler and Lance says some fans love him and some fans hate him. This arm bar goes on for some time. Brisco manages to reverse it. Have to say that this early matwork has been pretty lackluster. Lawler did nothing interest to sell the chinlock and nothing interesting to work the armbar. As I say that, Brisco kneedrops Lawler in the arm while he's working the armbar, thereby making his version of it 150% more interesting. Another kneedrop into the arm. He goes for a third but Lawler catches him on the way down into a bodyscissors. Kneedrop by Lawler. Reverse chinlock. Brisco struggles wildly. See, that's how you sell a chinlock! Brisco tries to struggle out but it's just a hope spot. Eventually he pulls out a backbreaker. Another backbreaker. He fires up. Kick to the midsection by awler breaks momentum. Elbow drop. Suplex. Two count! Knee drop. Brisco comes back with a Greco Roman Back Body Drop! Collision. Shinbreaker by Brisco! Goes for the figure-four, ref bump! Lawler goes inside his trunks. Right punch lays Brisco out. 1, 2 ... 3!!! Your winner and NEW NWA World Heavyweight Champion ... Jerry Lawler!! But then the ref spots the chain in Lawler's hand. Decision reversed! Lawler is pissed so he gives Jerry Brisco who is standing there in a blue shirt a piledriver. Jack gets up and the Brisco brothers clear house. This was about a 16 or 17 minute match that didn't seem to have any clipping. I have to say that I thought Lawler brought this match down. His matwork was extremely rudimentary and a bit boring, he did nothing to keep it engaging. His selling wasn't anything notable and he did nothing really to goad the crowd or engage them during the match. Brisco by comparison was Brisco and did all the things you'd expect of him, and I think showed the 24-year-old Lawler up a bit here. It's a decent match, but it's not what you'd hope for out of these two. Lawler failed to match Brisco's fire with effective heel work. *** Jack Brisco vs Johnny Valentine (06/24/75) You'd expect this to be from Charlotte wouldn't you, but Solie being on commentary suggests Florida again to me and they did have a match in Tampa on the listed date. Even so, Solie puts over Valentine as the US Champion. I believe this is taken from the "Gordon Solie: Film Room" that showed on WWE 24/7 some years back. Valentine with some clubbing blows. Armdrag by Valentine. Armbar. More clubbing forearms by Valentine. Brisco comes back with a few roundhouse left forearms. Big kneelift by Brisco. Bodyslam. Valentine tries to bail but Brisco catches him. Snapmare. Knee drop. Bodyslam by Valentine. Dropkick by Brisco. And now the figure-four! Valentine gets to the ropes. Brisco elbow drops Valentine's injured leg. Rolling cradle gets three for Brisco. We only get about 3 and a half minutes of this, so not a lot of comment on. It has been interesting to see Brisco completely switch up his style to suit whoever he has been facing. Against Baba he becomes tactical, against someone like Arion in Australia he plays Ric Flair, against Lawler he plays the firey babyface, and here against Valentine he ramps up his strikes and punching to match Valentine's clubbing blows. We're certainly seeing a lot of sides to Brisco during this NWA title run, even if there aren't a lot of classics in here. Jack Brisco vs Bill Watts (09/13/75) Sticking with this "Solie Film Room" stuff -- I should have mentioned that JR has introductions in between the match clips. Still in Florida. Of course, Solie on commentary but he's got Watts himself with him. I want to pause right here and say that this is a DREAM commentary duo, Solie on play-by-play, Watts on colour. Theoretically one of the ultimate commentary teams. Gary Hart comes out to issue a challenge to the winner but Watts decks him and kicks him out of the ring, ha. Watts on commentary says that he wanted to face Brisco in St. Louis but got swindled out of it, so he's "come to face the lion in his own den". Cool line, cool idea. And sure enough Florida seems like Brisco's "home territory". Watts claims that Brisco is like a savage which is a "throw back to his tribal heritage". Ha ha ha. Watts is amazing, terrific heel already during this. He maintains he didn't try to attack Brisco when his back was turned (he clearly did). He jaws the ref. Elbow and collar tieup. Side headlock by Brisco. "Look at the power in those legs" cries Watts, referring to his own legs. This is legitimately amazing to hear Watts big himself up on commentary. Brisco does some neat agile little counters. Watts: "No man in the world could have stopped him there, but right now I'm ahead on points and he knows it". Only been one minute and 36 seconds and I'd warrant if Watts isn't better on colour here than some guys have been in their entire careers. Brisco fires up and is ready to fight. Watts puts his dukes up, but as Brisco comes towards him backs up into the turnbuckle and puts the ref between himself and Brisco. Great little bit of psychology. Meanwhile on commentary Watts is claiming that he "believes in the rules and regulations ... otherwise I'd have thrashed him". Ha ha ha!! Bill Watts should commentate on all his own matches. Three deep armdrags by Brisco now. Watts bails. Solie claims that Watts is getting frustrated. Watts claims that he taught Brisco everything he knows and should have much more pride than he is showing now about how a STUDENT of his has become the world champion. "But when I beat him, you'll see who is the student and who is the master". Big left hook by Brisco and Watts cries foul that it was a closed fist. Dropkick by Brisco! Watts says that Brisco has one of the most explosive dropkicks along with Tony Charles. Brisco catches Watts's leg and Watts goes to the eyes. "I'm having to use some of Jack Brisco's tactics there". Honestly, this is a tremendous performance on colour by Watts. Brisco eats the turnbuckle. Hammerlock by Watts. Brisco flips up and over. Goes for a rolling cradle, reversed by Watts which gets two! Nice bit of action. Brisco is ready to fight. Watts calls Brisco a "spoiled brat" for resorting to fighting just because he countered his move. Lovely butterfly suplex by Brisco gets two, but Watts has his foot on the ropes. Snapemare attempt by Watts, so Brisco goes to the abdominal stretch. Watts breaks it and Brisco lands near the ropes where Gary Hart stomps and chokes on him. Watts on commentary claims he has no idea why Gary Hart is doing that and has no ties with him ... hmmm. He pulls Hart from him and shoves him back down to the apron. On commentary he says that he doesn't want anyone jeapoardising his chance to win the title and wants to win it fair and square. Hmmm ... intrigue. Watts throws Brisco into a turnbuckle. Bodyslam. Hary runs up onto the top rope and lands on Brisco, which gives him a DQ win. Hart runs away. Jerry Brisco runs out in white jeans and tries to stop a heel beatdown from Watts. Watts on commentary calls Jerry a "heathan savage". I can't be sure if this was clipped, I don't think it was, but man was this entertaining! Watts on commentary is gold, and he plays such a subtle, sneaky heel during this match. Brisco is great as always, but here he has a real foe to deal with in Watts. The stuff with Gary Hart outside of the ring I'm guessing would have played into next week's TV, but it added some additional intrigue here, even though the finish was a bit disappointing. Watts was much more effective here than Lawler was, but the match is too short to get any more than I've given it. I LOVED this though. ***1/2 Jack Brisco vs Harley Race (11/09/73) According to the trader this is a "rare match" from 73. I think it's from Houston, but not the match where Brisco beat Race for the title (07/20/73), but their second match there four months later. Crowd sound (faint) and no commentary -- Houston is the only place they wrestled where I can see them having tape (they also worked El Paso, Kansas and Atlanta). Race has the "blonde bomber" hairstyle here and an awesome moustache -- tremendous look! Couple of big slams by Brisco to start. Goes for a third but Race reverses into a body scissors. Big back breaker by Race. Knee into the back, twice more. Another backbreaker. Cover gets two. Piledriver! You see that Steven Graham, you Canadian snob! MOVEZ~!! Goes for the falling headbutt but misses. Brisco sells the back injury. He comes back with his big fists, kick, knee lift. He fires up and the crowd cheers. Race is upside down in the ropes. He backs up and begs off. Brisco makes him eat some turnbuckle. Sends him into the corner and Race does the Ray Stevens flip over the top onto the outside. Butterfly suplex by Brisco!! Big kneedrop. Cover gets two. Brisco charges but Race gets a sunset flip for two. Wristlock by Brisco. Knee to the gut by Race. Gutwrench suplex! Cover gets two. Vertical suplex! The falling headbutt! Brisco does the shaky leg sell, he's out! Kneedrop to the head by Race. Cover gets two. "Go Jack Go!" chant from the crowd. Headlock by Race but Brisco gets a back suplex out of it. Cover gets two. Collision. Brisco goes for the figure-four but can't get it. Race goes for a vertical suplex but Brisco struggles and lands on top of him. Race goes to the top but gets slammed from it. Cover gets two for Brisco. Backbreaker by Brisco! Race gets his legs on the rope. Kneedrop from Brisco. Headbutt to the midsection by Race. Another headbutt and Brisco flops back onto the mat -- almost like a reverse Valentine face flop. Race backdrops Brisco to the outside and the tape cuts out. Awww crap, this was shaping up to be an awesome match. Brisco shows once again how he can just mould his style effortlessly to match his opponent. Race wants to trade bombs and high spots? Sure, let's go then Harley. And that's what we get. For another one of our ongoing talking about regarding the evolution of style -- it's interesting that these two were having this sort of match as early as 1973. This wasn't clipped, it just cuts out short. There was virtually no downtime here at all. Bomb, bomb, bomb. Race seems like he was working this style from the very start. This is 73, about as early as we've got of him. Can't give a rating but this really looked like it could have been a wonderful match. Jack Brisco vs. Don Muraco (07/30/74) This is from Florida and was officially a rematch from the previous encounter. Again no commentary. Greco Roman knuckle lock struggle to start. Footage is less grainy here so easier to tell these two apart. Brisco is really fired up. Big elbow smash by him. Cover gets ... nothing. Couple of lefts are met with some big rights by Muraco and a knee lift which pops the crowd. He goes for the spinning toehold but Brisco escapes and goes for the figure-four which he can't get on. Headlock by Brisco. Rolling cradle by Muraco. Brisco powers out. "Go Jack Go" chant. Cover by Muraco gets two. Back suplex by Muraco. Cover gets two. Backbreaker by Brisco. He rolls Muraco up but his shoulders aren't quite down, some struggle, but he gets the pin. This surely wasn't the whole match. Jack Brisco vs. Terry Funk (12/10/75) Back to the Solie Film Room footage. This happened in Miami Beach and was the match where Funk won the title, he was actually subbing for Dory. Interesting that Race subbed for Dory when he lost the title (and Brisco won it from him) and now Dory is subbed out again when Brisco is dropping the title. One of those little things. We join the match 20-minutes in progress. Funk flips over the turnbuckle. Double collision. Funk tries to get up but flops back down. Shinbreaker by Funk. Solie: "Again, Brisco, his face ... a mask of agony". Gordon Solie was a poet. Funk drives a knee into Brisco's leg. Spinning toehold! Brisco counters and goes for the figure-four. Funk struggles. Brisco goes after him with some really vicious looking flailing punches. Hamstring snap. And again. Goes for the figure-four but Funk kicks him off into the steel post. Side headlock by Funk but Brisco gets a back suplex to counter. Brisco goes for the figure-four but Terry counters with an inside cradle and makes history by winning the world title. Well this is only four minutes, but what we saw looked good. Historical match.Post-match we get an interview with Funk. Solie has the stick. Terry looks incredibly proud and says that it's "the proudest day of his life". Solie mentions that the return match will take place in Tampa. Funk's face drops from all smiles ... "now wait a minute, I thought the return match was going to be in Amarillo, Texas!". And now in an extremely interesting moment, Terry Funk makes a vow... "I intend on being something that Jack Brisco never was ... and that's an offensive champion. Not a defensive champion! Not the kind of champion that continues running to the ropes constantly during the match. I'm going to take the fight to the man, and prove to these people that I will be the finest champion that the world has ever seen!" Very interesting because Funk is basically calling Brisco out for working what we might think of as "NWA champ style". I mean there's a bit of heelishness in here, so we have to take it with a grain of salt, but if the new champion is commenting on the defensiveness of the old one, it might have been an idea that was in the ether. Interview with Jack now. He says he plans on having the title back. He made a foolish mistake and paid for it. Brisco says that he trained and studied to face Dory Funk Jr but then at the last minute turned up here only to discover that he had to face Terry, so this is why he insisted on the caveat of the rematch in Tampa, where he has a lot of "home support". Brisco also had Funk down for a five count at one point in the match while the ref was out. Couple of weeks later now and it's Terry Funk in the studio with Solie, who asks him if his feelings about the rematch have changed at all. Funk: "Jack Brisco is on the downslide of his professional wrestling career. From becoming a champion, in three short seconds, instead of making history he's become PAST history. There's no more problem about who is the predominant family in wrestling any more, the Funks or the Briscos. And like I said, I plan on being an offensive champion!" I'll be incredibly interested to see if Funk ever delivered on his promise of being an "offensive champion" or if it was just hot air. ----- It was really interesting to see Brisco as champ in a variety of different places against a variety of different opponents. Some more general thoughts soon in GWE.

Try watching their TV match from a couple of weeks before. Even better in my view.

That match against Brisco in 76 -- I believe -- is actually the final of the tournament when he won it. The UN title is still technically active as one third of the Triple Crown. See this thread for more. PWO's very own jdw has a pretty complete history in there: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/27887-ranking-prestige-of-top-titles-in-all-japan-before-the-triple-crown/

I missed this comment. Brisco was not NWA champ in that match, it was for the UN title. Terry Funk was NWA champ in 1976.

Venegas - did you see the post I made up there about not every NWA title match having the banana peel narrative? That's one of about 10 different NWA title formula matches, and they probably went to it less than you think.

1. Jack Brisco - remarkable worker and I'm already a bit sad that I only have 4-5 discs left. 2. Jim Breaks - so much looking forward to getting into this guy more. Brilliant combination of character work and sick sick limb work. 3. Kawada - We've just got into 1991 and the guy is already phenomenal, blows my mind to think about how much better he can get. 4. 70s Terry Funk - If getting through all the Dory is like a puritanical pilgrimage of salvation, Terry is the big fat cake with lashings of chocolate and ice cream on top waiting at the end of the tunnel. 5. AJ Styles - the glimpses of him I've gotten watching the Low Ki stuff make me excited to see more.

It's also not really true that Race (or Flair) would bitch out completely all of the time. You get occasional matches where the babyface dominates and the champ pulls out a cheap last-ditch win, but typically in a 2 out of 3 falls match, the champ will get a fall and wind up winning 2-1. But you can't really have the champ come into town and demolish your local hero because 1) it damages the hero's cred and 2) you presumably want a reason for a REMATCH. But the champ would be booked differently in different places, anyway. St. Louis was the crown jewel, and Muchnick liked the champ to be strong. I watched a bunch of Race in St. Louis and he spent plenty of time on offense, no outside intereference, no ref bumps. Eddie Graham in Florida liked to book the champ in drawn-out technical affairs. He even made Race vs. Billy Graham go a whole hour, but Graham gives you ref bumps aplenty. We don't have much pre-Flair NWA champ at the Omni, but you know in GCW they loved the run-in finish or the bull-shit finish. We can't assume that every match was worked like Flair vs. Luger, GAB 88.

What I've been seeing though is that not every NWA champ worked the same way. Race and Flair were variations on the same theme, and I've not really watched Terry Funk's run yet, but Dory and Brisco didn't work like that. Dory was more or less an evolution or continuation of the Lou Thesz type. Brisco is like every 80s blowjob babyface you can think of, but better and grittier. I've seen people suggest before that Brisco worked subtle heel sometimes, but I've not seen much evidence of it yet. He's not working subtle heel in Japan against Baba or Inoki, those seem like face vs. face matches to me. Jumbo in 74 has a "young buck vs. wily veteran" feel to it, and that's as close as I've seen to Brisco-as-Thesz. I have two whole discs of Brisco as NWA champ in the US to come though, so will be able to say more in the next month or so. I have a feeling that Terry Funk worked more like Harley and Flair, but that's based on matches of his I've watched from the 70s when he wasn't champ. I think Brisco could fit into any promotion at any time, 80s, 90s, 00s, now. I really think the guy was that good. Some of the stuff I've seen has been later on in his career working pretty effectively as a heel in Georgia against Brad Armstrong and Sweet Brown Sugar, for example. I think he could have worked a more spot-heavy style if someone asked him to. This makes me think of Race, but (and I haven't done the legwork enough, but from what I've seen) is it that the forward-looking elements were different between Brisco and Race, and Brisco actually kept the elements of the 70s style that some of us miss and appreciate while adding another element and Race jettisoned those for HIS element that he introduced? I don't know. Does that even make sense? It's been hard to say with Race so far, because a lot of the matches have been clipped, so I'm getting stuff like 15 minutes of a 2 out of 3 falls that might have gone 30 or 40 minutes. I can't tell if there is any rhyme or reason to the clipping, but it's POSSIBLE that they cut out all of the headlocks and other holds and only kept in the highspots. It's POSSIBLE. I think the fact I can't tell does say something about Race in general though, which is that it would be entirely believable that he was working these matches almost exclusively through giving or taking suplexes and big bumping spots from the top. If it was Flair, I'd know that the opening 10-minutes of obligatory token matwork would have been cut. With Race, I can't tell. But I don't think the fact that Brisco did matwork discounts him from being considered really "ahead of his time" either. Watch Rick Martel or Steamboat or DiBiase as a babyface in the 80s or even in some matches Bret Hart in the 90s and they spend a comparable amount of time on the mat. Seems to me that Brisco established a lot of the standard tropes of your typical "technical babyface". His moveset (fireman carry takeover, atomic drop, drop kicks, big "comeback punches", suplex variations) wouldn't look out of place in any later era. Harley seems to be the man chiefly responsible for the gradual decline of matwork and greater emphasis on high spots. Brisco's legacy seems to be more in the expressive way that he sold and how he worked as a babyface, which "looks forward" in a different way. By comparison, Dory is almost a 1960s worker. And I said it earlier in this thread that he stubbornly refused to update his style in any way, which makes him an interesting bridge back to a by-gone era. From what Flair said in the recent interview with Austin, it seems like Dory was almost working a semi-shoot in his matwork, a bit like Thesz. Tying guys up in a pretzel and then (shoot) asking them to figure out a way to get out of it.

HBK's character wasn't "wrestling chess master" though. And Dory does sell holds, he just doesn't do it through facials, he tends to do it through his body. Like when he's getting his arm worked he'll typically slap over on his own arm to register the pain. He'll hit the mat with his leg or hand to show that this isn't where he wants to be. I do think he could show more vulnerability at times -- not quite at Backlund levels, but I do think they are comparable. If you read my longer reviews, you'll see this is a recurrent talking point. But it wouldn't be true to say that Dory no sells. He's just not the sort of worker who is going to scream out in pain or show agony in his face. But he does register the pain in other ways.

The "little things" Meltzer would have been talking about probably weren't facial, but things like the way Dory would use his body weight to work a hold. He's one of the better headlock workers you'll see because of how positions himself. He sometimes does intricate matwork that targets more specific areas than you typically see: like taking time out to snap back on a guy's fingers while he's working an arm, or twist specifically on a joint like the wrist or the ankle. His counters are very neat, and he is good at coming up with innovative ways to escape or reverse a hold. This has got to be the sort of thing that Meltzer is talking about, not how much he registers pain on his face. Brisco is definitely a much more "complete" worker than Dory, and he's much better at selling, emoting, showing fire and bumping -- but what Dory excels at is the pure technical ability, wrestler-as-chess master. Dory's gameplan is almost always to stay calm and make the other guy lose his temper and therefore give up control. It's why the few times he does lose his temper (e.g. vs. Sheik, vs. Brody, vs. Lawler, vs. Keirn in Florida) are quite special because he's a guy who 99% of the time gives his opponent nothing. He's the true "Ice Man" and probably the worker that Dean Malenko wanted to be. I do think that Dory's lack of facials and emotion in general is held against him disproportionately vs. the things he actually did well in a match. No one holds total lack of facials against a masked wrestler, for example. Dory's character was explicitly someone who didn't want to show emotion, so it makes sense that he didn't. It also makes the fire and ice dynamic when he's tagging with Terry work. I can't believe that it's me -- me who values character work so much, of all people -- who is having to defend Dory. But the criticism has gone much too far. If Dory really was that boring, I wouldn't have been able to sit through all the hours of matches of his that I have already. He's not like a Jack Brisco who will hit you between the eyes and knock you out with his awesomeness, his charms are more subtle than that. I'm about half way through Dory and a third of the way through Brisco right now, and about a third of the way through Race. If I had to rank them as things stand it would be: 1. Brisco - top 20 region 2. Dory - top 40-50 region 3. Race - top 60-70 region Dory has been in a greater variety of more interesting and compelling matches than Race. He had better matches in Japan than Race. He mixed up his work from match to match better than Race did. I can't just ignore all that because the expression on his face doesn't change that match. The best comparison point I can give you is Tenryu. When did that fucker ever change his expression? The difference is that Tenryu always looked vaguely unimpressed and slightly pissed off -- that's just the guy's face. Dory always looks a bit distant and possibly even bored -- that's just the guy's face. How much can the way a man's face looks affect where you rate him? I just think it seems awfully superficial, especially for this board.

Pete, are you suggesting that Dory is actively helped by poor VQ?