JerryvonKramer

http://placetobenation.com/pwo-ptbn-roundtable-wwe-coms-top-50-heels-in-wrestling-history-part-1/ Inspired by the Squared Circle Gazette Radio's recent show on the same topic, Parv (Titans of Wrestling, Where the Big Boys Play), Will (Good Will Wrestling, Wrestling with the Past), Johnny (Titans of Wrestling), and Steven Graham (Pro Wrestling Super Show) converge for this epic one-off roundtable to provide an alternative take on WWE.com's Top 50 Heels in Wrestling History. In this first part, they run through 50 down to 21. Fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy night. 50. Batista 49. Randy Savage 48. Vickie Guerrero 47. Mark Henry 46. The Iron Sheik 45. Andre The Giant 44. Eric Bischoff 43. Eddie Guerrero 42. Brock Lesnar 41. Kane 40. Don Muraco 39. The Dudley Boyz 38. CM Punk 37. Ernie Ladd 36. Ivan Koloff 35. Paul Heyman 34. Abdullah The Butcher 33. Terry Funk 32. Randy Orton 31. Kevin Sullivan 30. Jerry Lawler 29. Raven 28. The Fabulous Moolah 27. Paul Orndorff 26. Nick Bockwinkel 25. Vader 24. Harley Race 23. Sgt. Slaughter 22. The Undertaker 21. Freddie Blassie

Offical "Parv's points" are substantive comments about the match or the workers. Unofficial ones tend to be more superficial ones leading into the match along the lines of Kawada looking like a cool, hardbitten detective with a hangover.

Wouldn't expect anything less. On top of it the music sucked. Horrible sci-fi sounding laser beams. Guessing you didn't play Megaman 2, eh, Pete.

That Iraq stuff and info. Fucking hell I love this forum sometimes!

I figured people might have trouble finding the second Baba match ...

This is strange given how much Meltzer criticised Vince and WWF booking in the 80s.

I'd accept this excuse a bit more if we didn't have tape of Jack Brisco and Dory Funk Jr finding ways not to be formulaic as NWA Champ. Their spots and sequences are just much less obvious than Harley's, which owes a little bit to the spot-heavy style he worked. But it's not like I'm holding Harley to a 2014 weekly TV standard, I'm holding him up against other NWA champs from the 70s. I also think "the Flair formula" is much overstated as we've debated ad nauseum in the past. I think Harley repeated whole sequences a lot more than Flair did. Structurally his matches follow a pattern in a way that Flair's don't. I "get" the defence, I just don't buy it when you compare what Race was doing and what Brisco, Dory and Flair were doing. At this point, I think I'm going to have to take a real look at Terry Funk as NWA champ, just to get the fullest possible picture.

Absolutely not for DDP.

If this was Sweatiest Wrestler Ever, Rich would be number 1.

But Johnny, if we don't criticise anyone and consider all guys who were any good as "fucking awesome", we'll be left with 300 guys in no particular order.

I don't really see the problem with a guy like Destroyer (assuming everything that made tape is great, not watched him in my 70s viewing yet). In other fields, this isn't an issue. An example: Robert Johnson only recorded 36 songs that we have today. They all happen to be incredible. That adds to the guy's legend and you see Robert Johnson routinely crop up in "best ever" lists as a song-writer and guitarist, and one of the best Bluesmen ever. Elvis Presley, on the other hand, made an awful lot of shitty records, which in the long run count against him. I don't see a problem with ranking Robert Johnson ahead of Elvis, and no problem with ranking Destroyer ahead of Inoki. There are SO MANY guys from whom we don't have a complete overview of their career, but if there's enough on tape to make a call, we make a call. Shit, someone could make exactly the same argument against Will's favourite, Dick Murdoch. There is a metric ton of Murdoch that didn't make tape, so what do we do? Assume he was having shitty matches every week in Lubbock, Texas? Or do we make a judgement call based on what we do have?

There's a good chance one of his US title matches with Flair in 78 is better though. I'd second Beach Blast as contender for best WCW match ever, only competition I can think of are one of the Flair / Luger matches or depending on if you count 89 as WCW, Flair/Steamer.

Not calling you out Dylan, but this seemed a bit gamey to me. However, I do sort of know what you mean. Shawn doesn't *need* your vote. Or mine. Whereas there are going to be some guys, especially ones from more slept on periods or promotions or from more niche styles who are going to get every vote they can get. Viewed from a certain perspective, you are countering an "unfair" advantage that a guy like Shawn has with a semi-strategic vote. I say "semi-strategic" because I also have no doubt that you don't see him as a lock top 100 guy anyway.

Based on what OJ has been saying in his reviews, I can very well see John Cena not making my list.

Quite a big batch of Race tonight. I have watched far too much wrestling in the past 15 hours. I had this one day free with no one else around and no distractions ... I was watching Jack Brisco matches at 11am this morning. It's now 3.30am and I'm still in my PJs about to go to bed. Very rare to have a day to myself like this just completely vegging out, but it was nice while it lasted. My main observations on Race from this latest batch: - He could work with anyone, but I'm not sure if he could have great matches with anyone. All of the stuff from St. Louis was clipped but it was a decent chunk of those matches, enough to get a sense on if it was a very good match or not. If they were full, I've little doubt that we'd see the ones vs. Backlund, Rocky Johnson, Murdoch, DiBiase, and Terry Funk as being ****+ ... the common demominator? With the possible exception of Rocky Johnson, they are all great workers. The matches against Dick the Bruiser, Brusier Brody, and all three of the Von Erich boys didn't look so good. Common demoninator? None of them are slam-dunk great workers. I don't think I've seen Harley truly carry anyone yet, which is strange given that one of his key assets is big bumping. - He truly was "all action". I know I've been talking up Harley as being the man chiefly responsible for the transition from mat-based wrestling to a more "action and motion" style, but Race really really REALLY kept things moving. His style is very spot-orientated, a lot of bombs. A lot of spots around bombs and their reversals. Either Harley hits the suplex, or the opponent hits the suplex. Either Harley hits the piledriver, or the opponent hits the backdrop. And so on. Every match is like this. You can see it as a strength or as a weakness, but it's definitely a hallmark of his style. - Harley was much more formulaic than guys like Jack Brisco or Dory Funk Jr. Every wrestler has sequences they like to go to time and again, but viewed in context Harley has many more repeated spots than his immediate predecessors. It's less his "go to" offense, and more the way he feeds opponents reversals. Watch 10 Harley matches and you'll see the same reversal of the piledriver outside the ring, the same missed diving headbutt, the same suplex that is countered and hit by the opponent, etc. Dory and Brisco just don't do that sort of stuff, and I feel like Race's formulas are just a bit more glaring than Flair's signature bumps (two of which Race also does: the flop and getting slammed off the top). I just get the sense that Race is often on auto-pilot and it takes a great worker to get him to do more than his standard fare. None of this is to say that Harley won't make my list, he definitely will, but where Brisco looks like a lock for the top 20, Race doesn't hold up to this sort of scrutiny as well, and is looking more like a top 50 guy. I'd probably have Dory and Giant Baba ahead of him at this point as well.

This tape starts in Harley Race's office. Chris Owens is our host. Harley looks pissed off, but that's just his face. They are going to be watching some old film footage and Harley is going to talk us through some of the matches. Harley Race vs. Bob Backlund (1976) This is from St. Louis. It's a lumberjack match. Race says that Backlund was very strong and had tremendous leg strength. He tells a story about how he used to ride a bicycle 13 miles every day to the gym in Tampa. Bob Giegel (RIP) and Ox Baker (RIP) are two of the lumberjacks. In the ring there has been a lot of action. Backlund has been slamming Race around but Harley gives him a vertical suplex. Gutwrench suplex. Side slam by Backlund. There's a lot of clipping here so it's hard to call, but the VQ is really good. Multiple headbutts by Race. Goes for a suplex but Bob lands on top of him. Big elbow by Backlund sends Race flopping to the mat. Race says that the canvas in St. Louis was just like concrete. Not really going to rate this, but it was interesting to see the amount of ACTION here. Hard to say how much was cut but it didn't look like there was much downtime in this one. Backlund seemed to be showing a lot more vulnerability and selling a lot more than we would see him in New York, adding some credence to Johnny's and Pete's theories about why he was such a complete douche up there. That said, he seemed to be guzzling up his fair share of this one too. Harley Race vs. Rocky Johnson (1976) This is also from St. Louis. This was obviously later in the year because Harley's hair is a good bit longer, and he has a full moustache. He had short hair and a stubbly beard in the last one. Race says that Rocky Johnson had a lot of quirks and was afraid of a lot of things, including snakes. One time in Macon, Race threw a rubber snake into his room. Race claims that Rocky Johnson had more ability in the ring than his son, The Rock. Johnson has been dominating the action here with a headlock and headlock takeovers. Gutwrench suplex by Race. Kneedrop onto his head. Cover gets one. Slugfest back and forth now. Elbow drop by Race. Vertical suplex. Slam off the top of the ring. Race points out that the ring didn't move one bit and maintains it's the hardest ring he's ever wrestled in. Cover gets two. Backbreaker by Race. Kneedrop. Match ends up as a draw. Again too clipped for a rating, but man this one seemed like it had even more ACTION than the last one. Very back and forth match with a ton of high spots. Of all the 70s workers, Harley seems like by far the most action-orientated. I think you could make an argument that he is even more action-oritentated than Flair. Harley Race vs. Terry Gibbs (1977) This is from All-Star Wrestling. The caption incorrectly says that this is vs. Terry Funk in St. Louis. We go to the original commentary. Gutwrench suplex by Race. Front facelock. Slam by Gibbs. Back suplex by Race. Great knee drop. Head scissors takedown by Race. Gibbs tries to handstand out of it. Back up. Race resorts to the thumb to the eye. Piledriver! Only gets two! Kneedrop. Vertical suplex! And that's all she wrote here. Pretty standard studio squash with Race showing off his big bombs. Good for what it is. **1/2 Harley Race vs. Dick Murdoch (6/16/78) Where's this Funk match we were promised? This is completely silent now. I guess Race isn't going to be commentating on everything. Murdoch is on top as we join things and he looks like he's giving Race a real pasting with a lot of great looking punches and stomps. Finally Race catches Murdoch with a punch and he does some of the most ridiculous jelly-legs "drunk" cartoon selling you will ever see. Murdoch gets back on top and eventually Race eats a pin for the first fall. As he's recovering on the mat, Murdoch starts doing star jumps. Sleeper by Race now! But he ends up eating turnbuckle. Atomic drop by Race but he misses the diving headbutt. Big clothesline by Race. And he manages to get Murdoch over for the second fall. Third fall and Murdoch is back on top. Elbow drop. Dumps Race outside, but he manages to get back in and steal a pin. If we had this in full, this looks like it would be a really good match. I think Murdoch and Race are comparable workers in some ways. Harley Race vs. Terry Funk (4/7/78) Finally, here it is! Race is on commentary again. He runs through the three members of the Funk family. He calls Dory Sr the king of the rattle snakes. Dory Jr, he says, could wrestle as well as anyone whose ever laced up a pair of boots. And Terry was a combination of the two: one hell of a wrestler and tough as tough could be. He says that the scar above his eye came from a Russian chain match he once had with Terry. The match going on in the ring looks pretty exciting as Race takes the first fall. Terry has the short hair here. Shinbreaker by Race. Indian deathlock by Race. Diving headbutt. Piledriver. Terry runs into the post. Race mentions that the referee in this match reffed about 90% of the title bouts in that era and that they'd send him absolutely everywhere, but Race can't remember his name! Race takes the second fall after a coupe of piledrivers. Again if we had this in full, it looks like it would have been a good one. It's clear to see from these clippings, though, that Race was quite "go go go" in a way. But it wouldn't be fair to say that he lacks psychology, because he focused all his offense in this one on Terry's neck. We get an interview now. Bill Kersten is on the mic and Race has the NWA title. This seems like it is from St. Louis. Race says that if Bruiser is the toughest guy around, why isn't he world champ? Good point Harley. Race says that Dick has been chasing that title for longer than anyone can remember but he's not been able to win it, but Race has! Again, hard to argue with him. Race says that he's the cock of the walk. Good promo. Then again since everything has been from St. Louis so far, maybe this was from St. Louis. Harley Race vs. Dick the Bruiser (8/11/78) This is from St. Louis. Hiptoss by Brusier. Race mentions that Dick used to play football for the Green Bay Packers. Race goes for a suplex but Bruiser falls on top of him. Big punch by Bruiser. Post shot by Bruiser. First fall goes to Race. Kneedrop by Race. Punches back and forth. Goes outside. Back in. Pinfall by Bruiser for 1-1. Bruiser slams Race into a table outside. Race has colour. Another slam on the table. Race says that Dick didn't know a wristlock from a wrist watch when it came to wrestling ability, but he didn't need to. This didn't look very good because Dick the Bruiser was shit. Another interview now from Race. This time he's talking to Ted DiBiase. He says that just because he has people around him right now telling him how great he is, he reminds him that it took Race 16 years to become world champion. He says that people are infalting DiBiase's head like a balloon. "Don't let that big head overload your backside!" Race says that he's been in his position and he knows where he's coming from. Race tells him to bring it, because he doesn't care how good a young wrestler he is, because he's "the king of that squared circle". Really good promo. Harley Race & Bob Brown vs. Ted DiBiase & Paul Orndorff (12/78) This is the St. Louis match I've reviewed numberous times before on here and in audio form (Titans St. Louis special). But here it is with an alternate camera angle with Race on commentary, so I'll watch it just to see what Race says. He mentions that at this time both Orndorff and DiBiase were working for Leroy McGuirk. And Bob Brown was working Kansas City for himself and Bob Giegel. He says that DiBiase was a fabulous young wrestler and that his father died in his arms in Lubbock, Texas. He first met DiBiase when he was 11 years old. Race says that Orndorff was a fabulous football player who turned down several pro contract offers to become a wrestler because that's what he wanted to do. Race says that St. Louis Wrestling at the Chase is the most recognisable of all the wrestling TV shows. He says that he worked all over the world and more people ask him about Wrestling at the Chase than any other show, including MSG or the Cow Palace. Race that Bob Brown was a "Dick the Bruiser-style guy, only not nearly as rugged or strong as Dick". He talks about how him and Bob Giegel were tag champs for a long time. He talks about how you can technically do anything you want within the four count, and whether the people like it or not, it's legal. I've just realised that this commentary by Race is more or less 100% kayfabed. He mentions Orndorff was a trainer at the WCW Power Plant. This remains a pretty good match in the ***3/4 range. Harley Race vs. Ted DiBiase (1/79) Well this is one I haven't seen before. It's Ted's title match following that tag from The Chase. Silent footage here with no commentary. Ted goes for an early figure four but Harley punches him off. Ted works the leg some more. Eye rake breaks it for Harley. Big bodyslam by Ted and back to the leg. He twists the angkle around. Harley tries to come back with a headlock but Ted gives him a back suplex. And now, figure-four! That gets the first fall and Ted gives us a fist pump in celebration. Second fall and Ted stays on top until Harley goes to the eyes again to send him staggering. He tries to go for the figure four again but Harley nails him in the stomach and sends him into the turnbuckle. Kneedrop. Ted comes back with a shinbreaker but as he goes for the figure-four, Race gets an inside cradle to make it 1-1. Third fall and Race catches Ted in the bread basket. Goes for a piledriver but Ted backdrops his way out. Slugfest now. Ted gets the better of it with some great looking punches. Abdominal stretch by DiBiase now. Once again Race goes to the eyes. He's playing this one extremely dirty. DiBiase hits a piledriver. Swinging neckbreaker! Cover is broken because Race has his feet in the ropes. Race is standing and swinging but is dazed. Ted swings and misses and Race gets an atomic drop. Ted goes for the figure-four yet again but Race kicks him off sending him all the way through to the post where Ted blows his shoulder. Irish whip into the corner, but Ted jumps up onto the second rope and back down for a crossbody but the momentum swings Race over for the pin. Well this was pretty cool to see. DiBiase was booked extremely strongly here and Race seemed to give him an awful lot. This is your typical "babyface was dominant, but heel champ has too much cunning and sneaks out with a win" narrative. Again, if we had this in full, it looks like it would have been a really good match. These matches all look like potential ****+ affairs, but without seeing the whole thing, it's hard to say. Both guys sold big here. And watching Ted and his offense setting up the figure-four, I've got to wonder if Jack Brisco wasn't a big influence on him too. Young DiBiase is another guy I'd point to as a "post-Brisco" babyface, there are quite a lot of similarities. Harley Race vs. Bruiser Brody (3/23/79) Again this is St. Louis. And we have Race talking over it again. Race mentions that St. Louis was the only place in the world where Brody was known as "King Kong Brody", and that's because Muchnick would only allow one "Bruiser", Dick the Bruiser. Race says that while Brody was a big rugged guy, he was also a "cheap shot guy". Big slam by Brody. Stomp. Kneedrop. Stomp. Headlock takeover. Race mentions that at one time Brody held the world legpress record. He says he could wrestle but preferred to brawl. Kneedrop on the head. Dropkick by Race! Gutwrench suplex. Race mentions that there weren't a lot of moves in wrestling that he couldn't do, he just chose not to do a lot of them. He mentions that you wouldn't always see him do a dropkick, for example, but here against Brody the time was appropriate for it. Quite interesting! Kneedrop from the second rope by Brody and that gets the first fall. Race talks about how Invader 1 is still a free man today and how he didn't even spend one night in jail. Headbutt by Race. Vertical suplex by Race. Knee. Snapmare. Misses a headbutt. Race takes some time to tell a story about The Sheik. After Race's wife was killed only a month after they got married, and Race was recovering from the car accident, apparently the Sheik sent Race a paycheck every single month for 18 months. When Race started wrestling again, he told the Sheik that he wouldn't be able to pay him back all at once. Sheik said that he didn't give him the money to be paid back, he gave it to him because he needed it. Pretty nice guy. His son tells the same story on 57talk.com. Race says that you look at a tape of the Sheik and you'd think there's no way a guy like that could do such a nice thing ... "too bad you can't say the same thing about this guy". Safe to say that Race was not the biggest Brody fan in the world. Brody has been on top for the last bit with kneedrops. But Race steals the pin. "There's not too many people who can say they beat Bruiser Brody in St. Louis". Brody had his working boots on for this one, but I could still tell this wasn't up to the standard of Race's matches vs. Backlund, Murdoch, Rocky Johnson, Terry Funk, and DiBiase. Looked better than the Dick the Bruiser match though, mainly because Brody could take Race's high artillery offense, where Bruiser couldn't. Harley Race vs. David Von Erich (6/15/79) Yet again St. Louis. Race looks a bit like Santa Claus in his red robe. Backbreaker by Race. Piledriver! David counters a neckbraker attempt and gets a slam on. Race dumps David. Stops him gets back in. Goes for a suplex back in, but David slips behind him. Claw! Race on commentary runs through all the grissly Von Erich deaths, while David grabs the first fall. Race says that of all the von Erichs, David was the "best wrestler by far" and would have been a great one had he lived. Race misses a headbutt. David punches Race and goes to the claw again. Harley comes back with pinches. Thesz press! But Race leans back and gullotines David on the top rope. Nice sequence. This has wiped David out and drained all of his momentum. Race capitalises. Race claims that only David and Fritz could use the claw effectively. Says that the others' hands weren't big enough to do it correctly. Race mentions that he has a decent grip himself but his fingers aren't long enough to do the claw. Back to the match and he's got a front facelock on. Back up and goes for a suplex. Reversed! Backdrop! Claw! Race goes to a gut punch, but he keeps the claw on. David gets tied up in the ropes and blows his leg out. Race targets the leg and gets the pin. Race on commentary mentions that if he sees an opponent has hurt a body part, he'll target it. He wasn't like the Andersons who would pick a part and go after it, he wanted to see what was going to happen and pick his sports DURING the match. Some pretty interesting psychology talk there. David is so injured that he can't continue, so the match is stopped at 1-1. This looked like a really excellent little match here with some great psychology. Having Race on commentary to provide some extra insight was nice too. But David was great at selling here, and Race stooged for him in the early going and then was the consummate opportunistic dick heel later on. The spot where David gets hotshotted over the top after going for a Thesz press is really great and then later on it's the rope again that screws his leg up. Good storytelling here. I think these St. Louis matches show that you can't underestimate missing footage. Race looks like he was having very good to great matches with everyone here. If only some of them were full! I think these are "full enough" to get a decent feel though. You can follow the narrative and see the level of action. The clipping is not too bad. Harley Race vs. Kevin Von Erich (2/22/80) Again St. Louis. Harley mentions that Kevin was the only Von Erich to wrestle barefooted and partly this was because he resembled Argentina Rocca in his body type and way he worked. Kevin works a headlock. Slams by Kevin and a headlock take over. Backbreaker by Race! Kevin runs and gets a body scissors. Is that a submission for the first fall? Apparently not. Kevin goes back to the body scissors. Makes sense. Bodyslam. Headlock. Headbutt by Race to come back. Tries to piledriver but takes a backdrop. Headlock by Kevin. Dropkick. Vertical suplex by Race. "Kitchen sink" by Race. Goes for another suplex but Kevin slips back over and goes to a chinlock. Shoulder charge to the gut by Race. Knee to the gut. Punches by Kevin. Knee again by Race. Dropkick by Kevin. Race talks about how he was targeting the abdomen here. And Race gets the pin for the only fall and win. This didn't look that good to me. Kevin seemed intent on working a lot of holds, but it looked boring. Suite of intereviews from Race now on Backlund before their 1980 match. "They call me king around New York, well they call me king AROUND THE WORLD". Great promo. But there's no way in hell that I'm going to watch that fucking travesty of a match again. Absolutely no way. Harley Race vs. Kerry Von Erich (9/11/81) Final match from this tape and it's St. Louis once again. Race mentions that Kerry was going to go to the Olympics to throw javelin had Jimmy Carter not boycotted the Olympics. Race mentions that Fritz HATED Jimmy Carter because of that. Race goes for a gutwrench suplex which is blocked. Headlock takeover. Kerry works this headlock now. I have to say that none of the Von Erichs are particularly compelling at working a headlock. Bodyslam by Kerry. Harley dumps him out of the ring. Goes after him but Kerry reverses a piledriber into a backdrop. Race seems to have colour. Back in and a snapmare from Kerry. Shot to the breadbasket by Race. Shot to the face. Swinging neckbreaker. Dropkick by Kerry. Sleeper! Dropkick! Kerry goes for a splash but Race gets the knees up. He goes over and locks his legs to take the win. Again, this match didn't look that great to me.

I rate on this scale Butch, make of it what you will. If you consider a 12-point scale, ** is the equivalent of 4 out of 12, which is "bad" in my book. (NB. the sub-DUD ratings are very seldom used)

Low Ki vs. Eddie Gurrerro (11/30/2001) This is for the ICW title, Ki is champ. Eddie is just coming out of rehab and this crowd are pretty hot for him. Mercifully, this match has no commentary. Collar and elbow tieup to start, quickly over into an arm drag for Ki. Eddie reverses into a grapvine and they stand off. Fireman carry takeover by Eddie. Armbar. Snapmare. Headlock. He wrenches on it. Ki powers out of it, but Eddie gets him in a wristlock. Reversed. Eddie flips out of it and reverses. Ki flips up. Still on this wristlock. Airplan spin thing by Eddie but Ki manages to slide off. Eddie bails. Back in and he goes to the wrist again. Test of strength spot. Ki comes out on top and pins Eddie to the mat. Eddie tries to bridge up but Ki jumps on top of him. Kind of weird that I saw Jack Brisco and Antonio Inoki do this exact spot earlier. Stand off again. Headlock takeover by Eddie and he keeps this headlock on now. Puts Ki in the rack. And there are some pin reversals I can't describe. Back in this upside down crucifix rack thing. Head scissors by Eddie. These guys are really working the mat here. Ki headstands out of the scissors but Eddie gets him in a cloverleaf. Half-crab now and he's working this back and leg. Inziguri now from Ki. And a big chop. More Flair chops now. Big splash in the corner. Shades of Sting there. Head scissors by Ki. Surf board by Eddie now! Full surf board. Slips over into a front facelock. Chop by Eddie now. A few punches. Cover gets two. Belly-to-belly suplex. Two. Hurricanrana from the top. Two. Armbar. This match has no logic or flow or anything. I'm baffled by this sequence of moves. Its just a bunch of stuff tacked together with no rhyme or reason. I'm surprised at Eddie here in particular. Ki starts with the kicks now. But Eddie catches a leg and gets over into a chinlock. Ki drags himself to the ropes to break. Muta sprung kick thing in the corner now by Ki. Gets two. Ki goes for a fisherman suplex but Eddie reverses into an inside cradle. Two snap suplex now by him for two. German suplex by Ki gets ... less than one. Chop by Ki, runs into an elbow. Eddie hits his top-rope DDT. Ki seems knocked out. Eddie goes to the top but misses the frog splash. The crowd starts an abhorrent "you fucked up" chant. Ki gets the pin but the ref's count was super duper fast. Oh man, this was crap!! I needed to kill twenty minutes and had read elsewhere that this was definitely a four-five star affair, but it really isn't. This suffered from me watching it on a day when I'd seen Brisco take on the likes of Jumbo and Baba in matches with truly stellar matwork and psychology. I was struck by just how boring and listless the matwork is here by comparison. Eddie is really bad in this match. The whole thing comes off like an exhibition, but there's just no coherence to anything. They are moving through their repetoire of submission holds, but I don't understand why Eddie is following up a hurricanrana with an arm bar. That's indicative of everything here, there's just no focus to anything. The whole match is "just a bunch of stuff". Really bad match. **

Guys I will likely be "the low vote" on: Shawn Michaels - realistic shot of not making the 100, I might be the most anti-HBK of those who are down on him in general. Jerry Lawler - still a lot more of him to see, but he doesn't look like clicking with me, I need more than just punches and timing in my wrestling Bob Backlund - at this point I have to admit that he's probably making the 100, just in too many good matches to ignore, but from those of us who will be voting for him, I'll almost certainly be the lowest vote. Barry Windham - I've always felt like I'm lower on Windham than a lot of people. I don't like him much as a Flair opponent. If Windham makes my list, it'll be in the 90-100 region.

Baba has to rank. He simply has to. In far too many great matches to ignore. He's been great in stuff I've seen vs. Dory, vs. Race and vs. Brisco, and -- at least in my view -- he's having better matches with all of these guys than Inoki and in some cases better matches than Jumbo. Baba is weird, he looks weird and he works a bit strange, but it's almost like getting into Tom Waits or something: once you're into him, you don't notice the voice as much. I said this earlier: And I'd stand by that. Hard to think of many workers who just GET psychology as well as he does. And this makes up for some of his other shortcomings. I haven't even seen his matches with Billy Robinson yet. #30 on the 2006 list looks high, but I get it and certainly think that you could put together a decent case for him as a top 30 guy based on 70s work alone. He has a lot more great singles matches to his name than Arn Anderson, as one example, and I'd argue that his psychology is just as good as Arn's, if not better.

Major batch of Brisco today, and I don't see how there are 20 better workers than Jack Brisco. I'd like to see someone make a case that there have been twenty better guys than him, because right now, less than half way through my viewing of him, he's looking like a lock for the top 20, maybe even top 15. Guy has absolutely everything: fire, charisma, intensity, workrate, selling, bumping, great punches, great execution, great psychology, great crowd control. The guy is just the total package. The real deal. I'd be interested to know what other people think of Brisco. I surely can't be alone in thinking he was just phenomenal.

Jack Brisco vs. Jumbo Tsuruta (01/30/74) Jumbo is quite young here. Collar and eblow tieup to start, arm drag by Jumbo into an armbar. Bodyslam by Brisco but Jumbo gets in another armdrag and back into the armbar. The ref here looks like Big Al from Happy Days. Back up to a vertical base and Jumbo tries to butterfly Brisco, but that's not happening so he goes back to the armbar. Brisco tries to get an armdrag in but it's reversed and Jumbo goes back to the armbar. Back up to a vertical base and this turns round now into a wristlock which Jumbo wrenches. Brisco gets in a desperation sunset flip, but Jumbo goes back into the armbar. He picks Brisco up by the arm while still in "the bar" and slams him down on the canvas. This is some nasty matwork by Jumbo here that wouldn't be out of place in World of Sport. Finally Brisco turns it around into a chinlock, the way he wrenches on it is very reminiscent of Rick Martel. Somehow, Brisco looks like he's bleeding from the mouth, presumably hardway. Jumbo goes back into the armbar but Brisco gets a pumphandle slam to counter. Into a standing hammerlock from Jumbo now and then what looks like a cross-face chickenwing. But Brisco regains advantage and targets the legs now with knee drops. He grapevines them and as he does so punches the leg Billy-Robinson-style. He leans back extremely deeply on this grapevine. Snapmare by Brisco, but Jumbo gets in a backslide and a big two big bodydslams. Elbow drop. Second one misses and that allows Brisco to get in a backbreaker for the first fall. Brisco applies a headlock and smashes Jumbo across the back of the neck with elbows. He responds with a shinbreaker and now attacks Brisco's leg with kneedrops and a bridging Indian deathlock, now he gets up and falls back on it. You might call that the influence of Dory Funk Jr. Brisco tries to comeback but Jumbo decks him in the gut and then sweeps rounds into a grapevine on the injured leg. Brisco backs up and more or less begs off as Jumbo fires up. Brisco's selling of this leg is great. Boston crab by Jumbo and the crowd are hot. Some European uppercuts from Jumbo now and the commentators namecheck Dory Funk Jr. Jumbo hits the butterfly suplex. Belly-to-belly suplex! That gets 3 for 1-1.So far during this match, Jumbo has decimated Brisco's arm, taken out his leg, and now he's destroyed his back. This is a total body destruction approach from the young Tsuruta. Jumbo goes straight after the injured back now with kicks and a slam. Camel clutch! Abdominal stretch. Somehow things get to the point where Jumbo is bridging back and Brisco is jumping on top of him. Big bearhug by Jumbo now and Brisco tries to punch his way out of it. He does so before hitting his own butterfly suplex. Backbreaker! Only gets two. Belly-to-back suplex by Jumbo!! Collision spot now and they are both down. Slugfest and Jumbo hits a dropkick. Second time and Brisco grabs the rope, he came off as being a bit Lou Thesz-ish there. Jumbo gets in a roll up but Brisco reverses it for three. Before giving my views on this match, I just want to say a couple of things about each guy. I know this thread is about Brisco, but Jumbo -- who is still in my view Flair's only challenger for #1 -- can lay claim something that Flair can't: mastery of the 70s style. This match saw Jumbo-as-Dory-Funk-Jr, we never get a Flair version of that to my knowledge. Another thing is that Flair doesn't have matches as good as this one on his resume as early as 1974. These are both things in Jumbo's favour in that comparison. What about Brisco? If this saw Jumbo-as-Dory, this was Brisco-as-Thesz. He was kind of working subtle heel, kinda, and this was very much a case of young fire vs experience and ring savvy. But the main takeways would be that Brisco absolutely his arse off here to make Jumbo looks as great as possible in front of his own crowd. Jumbo eats up a good 80% of this match on offense, and Brisco's selling is great, whether it's the arm, the leg, or the back. Whether it's selling a hold or bumping big from a throw. More evidence, I think, that Brisco really could "do it all". So what about the match? Psychology, pschology, pscyhology. Jumbo's offense was assassin-like: target arm, destroy arm; target leg, destroy leg; target back, destroy back. This is exhibit A in that arguent about whether or not a guy should just stick to one body part or start going after different areas. I see no problem in that at all, and Brisco is just so good at selling that he remembers the arm during the second fall, even though his leg is being worked over, and then he remembers the leg during the third fall. My main criticism of this match -- and it's a typical one from me -- is that this is all a bit too one-sided. Jumbo dominates all three falls, and Brisco is getting his falls from opportunistic reversals or quick counters. It's more of a booking philosophy thing than anything, but I like to see babyfaces in peril and showing vulnerability a little more than we see from Jumbo here. This is a very good match, excellent even, and a great demonstration of what I'd call the "70s style", but it falls short of greatness for me because in a 2 out of 3 falls match for the NWA title that goes 30 minutes, you'd expect a bit more parity. Psychology was great, but not convinced about the structure. It's also a little bit sedate, by which I mean lacking in heat and a little intensity. **** Jack Brisco vs Giant Baba (12/2/1974) I think this is the famous match where Brisco talked about making a deal independently with Baba to drop the title to him. Baba targets the arm to start and works an armbar but Brisco reverses to work the leg. Turns him over into a half-crab. Grapevine. And kneedrops into Baba's leg as he's going this. Baba grabs Brisco round the throat to try to counter. Great struggle here. Some rope running but Brisco slips in a drop toehold and goes back to the grapevine. Baba gets back on top now and gets into a standing surfboard sort of position and works this for some time. Brisco comes back with some fire with a strike to the ear. Knee to the gut. Knee lift. Some real viciousness from Brisco here. Baba comes back with his feather-lite chops. Side Russian leg sweep, and that gets three for the first fall. This is turning into a slugfest, Brisco is laying in the shots here and Baba seems taken aback. Kneedrop. Chinlock but Baba drags Brisco over. He keeps the chinlock on. Someone should tell the commentators that not every chinlock is a "sleep-ah hold-ah". Brisco is vocal here, "ask him referee!" Multiple elbow drops from Brisco now. Baba comes back with chops and a kick. Big boot! Brisco is staggered. Atomic drop! Gets two. MASSIVE back suplex from Brisco! Figure-four!!! Baba is in real pain here, great selling from him. He's smashing his hands down on the canvas in struggle, but it's too much and this is a submission. Brisco won't let it go and keeps it locks in for some extra advantage. He raises his arm in fury for 1-1. Wow. Brisco goes after the inner thigh now and Baba sells his two kicks like a real pro. Wishbone by Brisco now. Elbow drop into the inner thigh -- I wonder if Bret Hart got some of his five moves of doom from Brisco, some of what Brisco does reminds me of Bret. Tremendous moment now as Baba tries to snap Brisco over his knee but his leg is too hurt to do it, then he does it again, which isn't too bright. He gets a side Russian legsweep in for a cover but Brisco's foot is on the rope. Shinbreaker from Brisco but Baba gets a swinging clothesline / bulldog in for the cover and everyone goes nuts. We have a NEW World NWA champion! All of the All Japan guys hit the ring and lift Baba over their heads. Lord James Blears comes in with the belt and Baba celebrates. I really thought this was a very good match, it had a lot more heat and intensity than the Jumbo bout and I thought the psychology was just as strong. Brisco worked much more as Baba's equal here, so there was more parity, and Brisco was willing to show a more brutal side of his personality. Between this and the Race matches, Baba himself had a lot of really great matches in the 70s. His selling in this match was really good. I wouldn't call this a carry job at all. Very very good. ****1/2 Jack Brisco vs Antonio Inoki (08/05/71) Obviously this is JWA. And as always, some trepedation from me because this is Inoki. Brisco in black tights here. Quick fireman carry takeover from him into an armbar. Inoki comes back and gets on a grapevine. Next few minutes are very attritional with both guys struggling for position and advantage. Inoki ends up getting on a headscissors. Back up to a vertical stance and Brisco gets fired up and goes in for some strikes. He goes to work on Inoki's leg now, driving his knee into the back of Inoki's thigh. Brisco is really great at working the leg with intensity. He attacks this leg some more now and goes for an early figure-four. Inoki immediately goes to the rope for a break. He pins Inoki's leg back now and puts his body over it, not sure what you'd call this, but it looks like it would hurt. Indian deathlock now and he falls back with some conviction -- he does this move with more nastiness than Dory Funk Jr. Goes for a butterfly suplex, lots of struggle from Inoki, but Brisco forces it through and hits it! Inoki comes back with a flapjack thing. Brisco is ready to fight and throws a couple of jabs. Bodyscissors from Brisco now but Inoki has him in a pinning predicament. Inoki manages to get on a headlock, Brisco goes after the leg. Clean break. Collar and elbow tieup, Brisco with the amatuer move round the back and low. Punches to Inoki's back. Inoki turns it round into a grapevine. Brisco tries to punch his way out of it, and these are nasty punches. Smashes Inoki into the turnbuckle. But Inoki gets a snap Boston crab and the crowd wakes up. Gutshot to Brisco sends him 360 and he gets caught upside down between the ropes. A young boy comes to help him get loose. Inoki gets two. Flying headscissors by Inoki now. Brisco shouts out in pain. Big lefts from Brisco to break out of this and Inoki runs into a big boot. Snapmare, bodyslam and Brisco steals a pin for 1-0. Brisco attacks from the off in the second fall, all elbows and stomps. Cover gets two. Headlock takeover. The typical headlock / bridge pin sequence now that they loved in the 70s. Huge amount of struggle from Inoki during it though. Inoki struggles to get Brisco in position for a butterfly, but he resveres and gets in a backslide. Inoki gets back ontop and does a neat little leg sweep to get Brisco down on the mat where he works the arm. He grapevines himself around the arm and Brisco does some great selling. He tries to roll out of it and get a pin but that's not happening and Inoki keeps this synched in. I'm not sure what this hold is called, but it looks like it puts great pressure on the arm and joint. Brisco breaks it and is pissed now, several big drop kicks. He charges the corner and this gives Inoki an in. German suplex!! And that gets three for 1-1. Brisco slaps his own face to recover from the German before the third round. Great little spot. Inoki is ready to fight now too and hits several big stomp kicks. Brisco sells them amazingly. Octopus! Brisco is fading fast ... that's it submission!! Another great match from Brisco against a Japanese opponent. I can see some people really loving this match for its more shoot-y / attritional qualities because the level of struggle is off the charts. As most people who have followed my stuff will know, I am neither a fan of shoot-style nor of Inoki, so I'm naturally a tiny bit lower, but not much because I thought Brisco's performance was sensational here. Firey, intense, amazing and desperate selling. His attention to little details is something else. I loved that clearing of his head before the third fall and I love that the aftershock of the big German suplex leads directly into the finish of the third fall because Brisco is still recovering. That makes real sense and some interesting / unique structure for a 2 out of 3 falls match to have the final fall so short. To me Brisco looks like the super worker of his generation. I need to see some more Jim Breaks, but Brisco is sitting at #1 for my worker of the 70s so far ****1/2 Jack Brisco vs. Giant Baba (12/05/74) This is when Baba was champion defending in the rematch, and the trader claims it is "rare", but you can find this on the Highspots NWA title in Japan comp among other places. Watching this and seeing how OLD Lord James Blears looked in 1974 makes it all the more remarkable that he's still alive today. I wonder why he looked so old even back then. He would have been 50 in 1974. Headlock by Brisco to start and Baba tries to give him a back suplex out of it, but Brisco elbows the back of his neck to break the attempt. Goes back to the headlock and they drop down to the mat in it. Baba turns it around and puts his bodyweight on Brisco's arm in a fairly lengthy control segment. Back up to an armbar, which Baba then brings crashing back down. Brisco gets back on top and works the leg. Airplane spin by Baba! Back suplex by Brisco!! And that's 1-0. Big cubbing blow by Brisco now. But he misses a kneedrop which Baba immediately capitalises on. Boston crab! Backbreaker! Side Russian legsweep! Hiptoss! But Brisco gets in a desparation backslide. Baba gets in a swinging neckbreaker and Brisco sells it wildly, some shaky leg. Wow, that's one way to sell a neckbreaker! Really hot second fall! Brisco wants to fight now and this is turning into a slugfest. Baba gets the best of it and chops him on the top of the head. Brisco bails. Back in and we get a repeat, Baba really nailing Brisco on the top of the head with these chops. Cover gets two. Couple of over-the-knee hiptosses. Sunset flip by Brisco gets two! Dropkick by Brisco. Baba gets up and backbreakers him. Two! Goes for the neckbreaker again, Brisco blocks him. Back suplex by Brisco! But Baba kicks off the top rope to change the trajectory of the suplex and lands on top of him: 1, 2, 3!! Wow, this was a really good match and I think it had more action and heat than the first one. Brisco is once again absolutely superb -- and I really really prefer Baba as a worker to Inoki. The second fall is really good, and the finish is phenomenal. This has great psychology too, which seems to be par for the course for a Baba match -- if wrestling is a human chess match, then Baba is a grandmaster. Brisco shows a hell of a lot of fire here and sells his arse off once again. Might be the best match so far, bordering on 5-star. ****3/4 [later updated to *****] Jack Brisco vs. Bobo Brazil (03/13/75) Time to come back down to earth after that ... But this should also be interesting: what can Brisco do against a limited opponent? This is still in Japan by the way, Bobo is chewing some white substance to bely his savage nature. Bobo jumps Brisco to start and smashes him into the turnbuckle. Brisco is flying around here making Brazil look like a real monster. Bobo stomps around and gets the first fall in about a minute! Wow, the NWA champ is in trouble here, 1-0 down already. Brisco is dazed and injured and drags himself over to his corner. He's still down as the bell goes for the second fall and Bobo just manhandles him. Brisco is throwing himself around like Ricky Morton here. Headbutt by Bobo. Cover gets two. Brisco starts to fire up and Bobo backs off. Couple of shots by Brisco and a snapmare. Y'know, on this evidence, Bobo Brazil in 1975 looks better than Kamala in 1985. Certainly looks like Kamala got about 85% of his act from Bobo. The thing is, Bobo was usually a face in the US, but here's he's playing a heel and a "savage" gimmick -- I've never seen Bobo be like this before. Bobo comes back with punches and an elbow. But Brisco grabs his leg and levels him with a wishbone. He stretches his left leg and Brisco positions his foot over Bobo's right foot to extentuate the stretch. Terrific little detail. Elbow drop by Brisco and back to the leg. Single standing grapevine and now Brisco lies down. Bobo is making voodoo noises and laughing manically. Brisco lays the leg out and knee drops it. Bobo is shouting a lot to convey the pain he's in. Back up and Brisco is kicking Brazil in the leg, which sends him down. Back on the leg and Bobo is almost cartoon-like in his much he's selling this. He manages to get back on top with a choke. But Brisco gives him a shinbreaker and gets on the world's fastest figure-four for a pretty quick submission. Bobo has a second with him, a black guy -- I assume this is Rufus R. Jones -- who jaws at him. Third fall and Brisco is almost possessed in targeting this leg. Vicious stomps and kicks to the leg. He grapevines it over the bottom rope. Bobo still in significent pain can barely stand up. Boboo goes after Brisco and gouges his face and eyes. Chokes now within the count. Thumb to the eye. Rake to the face. Chokes over the bottom rope. Headbutt! Cover gets two only. Bobo still limping and selling that leg. Brisco goes for a shoulder charge but gets another headbutt for his trouble. Bobo sends him into the turnbuckle and starts with the chokes again. Front facelock and Brisco reverses into a small package. Two only. Brisco manages to get on a hammerlock and kneedrops Bobo in his back and arm. Rope break. Double kneedrop by Brisco onto Bobo's head!! Jumping knee. Elbow drop. Bobo comes back with punches. And he goes back to the chokes. Front chop to the face. Headbutt. Bobo argues with the ref as Rufus R. Jones chokes out Brisco. Do they realise they are in Japan? Action goes outside and Bobo slams Brisco into the table. Bobo's second comes over and headbutts Brisco. The bell goes. Is that a double countout or a DQ? Bobo continues his attack on Brisco outside with headbutts. Yes, looks like the third fall was a DQ. Well this was a lot better than expected. The second fall in particular was really good. Brisco was ragdolling superbly for Bobo, but uses his superior knowledge of wrestling to gain advantage and proves the old line that "it doesn't matter how big you are if you can't walk". The psychology of those first two falls was fantastic. And in fairness to Bobo, he sold that leg really well and didn't look that bad on offense. The main problem is that in the third fall, Bobo is kind of out of ideas for things to do so resorts to choking and cheapness and then we getting a cheap finish on top of it. The stuff with Rufus seemed really out of place in Japan too. ***1/2 Jack Brisco vs. Bruiser Brody (04/26/81) Speaking of limited opponents ... I can't find a date for this anywhere online, but I assume it's from the 1981 Champions Carnival -- but the only place this is mentioned anywhere is ... right here on PWO by a certain jdw. Certainly looks like 1981. Brisco lays in some shots to start but Brody cuts him off with a face rake and a standing powerslam. Kneedrop. Sends him into the turnbuckle. Big boots in the corner. Backbreaker! Cover gets nothing because Brisco gets a foot to the rope. Punches by Brisco now and he sends Brody into the turnbuckle. Irish whip but he catches a boot to the face and Brody dumps him outside of the ring. He grabs him by the hair and walks him down the aisle, then marches him back and smashes him into the post. Brody grabs a chair and nails Brisco on the floor with it. But Brisco manages to post him and gets on the figurefour outside of the ring! Brody struggles. Brisco isn't letting go of this figure four. Is this falls count anywhere? Brody grabs a chair and nails Brisco with it and gets back into the ring. Bell goes and Brisco has been counted out. Brody goes back out and grabs the banner on the apron to choke Brisco with it. Brody really is a piece of shit. Just after breaking free of the figure-four here he gets back in the ring and marches about completely forgetting to sell the leg he was just manically selling outside. Awful worker! It comes to something when you're getting shown up by Bobo Brazil. Brody was just Brody here, all of the worst things you'd expect. Brisco does his best, but what can he do with someone like that? At least it was short. *1/2

I don't know if Ladd was an all-time in-ring great, but I think the point I was making is that even from what we have on tape, he was obviously better than the 14 or so workers I have listed there from the era. And is definitely in the top 50 workers from that period. From what I've seen I'd have him above Wrestling II as well, but I can see others disagreeing with that. But Ladd is one of those workers who is mainly going to be all about character work, crowd control, and "working smart". If you are the sort of person who isn't putting Hogan on your list, I don't see a hope in hell for Ladd. As it is, I don't see him making it for anyone, but he's an interesting guy to consider.

It looks like this guy has put a lot of the WWA stuff on youtube. KELLY - there is a Denucci tag match here for your viewing pleasure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMeK8L0UC1U

It's probably easier to make the case for him being the top heel of his era, but then 50 is quite a big number too. Of the 70s guys who is definitely above him? Let be as generous as possible to others over Ladd: Dory, Terry, Jack, Jerry, Wahoo, Bock, Stevens, Johnny Valentine, Paul Jones, Bruno, Buddy Rose, Lawler, Flair, Race, Hans Schmidt, Ivan Koloff, Thesz, Dusty, Murdoch, Heenan, Mr Wrestling, Mr Wrestling II, Andre, Arion, Verne, Danny Hodge ... Now we're starting to reach Denucci? Scicluna? Buddy Wolf? Pak Song? Haystacks Calhoun? Gorilla Monsoon? Strongbow? Mulligan or Lanza? Brusier? Crusher? Baron von Raschke? Moose Cholack? Bearcat Wright? Guess my point is that Ladd is SAFELY top 50 "in ring guys in the us/canada during his era", unless there's a whole bunch of guys I'm forgetting about.