JerryvonKramer

Timbo, this stuff surfaced a week or so ago: California Wrestling (SF & LA from the 70’s) (L.A.) Eddie Mansfield vs. Tom Jones – the commentary is in Spanish. Roddy Piper. After the match Chavo Guerrerro comes in to confront Piper but Roddy gets help and ends up choking Chavo with his tee shirt and leaving him lying. Roddy Piper cuts a promo on Chavo Guerrerro. He says next week he’ll be there with one hand tied behind his back and will wrestle anyone. (SF) "Irish" Pat Barrett vs. "Rock-n-Roll" Buck Zumhoffe (SF) "The Polish Prince" Ed Wiskoski & "Playboy "Buddy Rose cut a promo (SF) John Tolos vs. Ron Pope in an arm wrestling match and it doesn’t end with a heel attack. (SF) Jimmy Snuka vs. Buddy Rose – 2 out of 3 falls match (SF) Jimmy Snuka promo – he challenges Buddy Rose to a 2 out of 3 fall no time limit match (SF) Buddy Rose & Dr. Frank Ramey promo (SF) Red Bastien & Billy Ash vs. Ed Wiskoski & John Tolos (SF) Ed Wiskoski & John Tolos promo (SF) Ron Pope vs. Ed Wiskoski in an arm wrestling match with $2000 on the line. – Pope wins but then Wiskoski claims that Pope always sits on the same side of the table so they need to do it again with the other arm. And Now…we have the heel attack. Pope fights back but Buddy Rose runs in and the Washington boys lay a beating on Pope. (SF) Buddy Rose & Ed Wiskoski vs. Red Bastien & Ted Heath (SF) Ken Ramey, Buddy Rose & Ed Wiskoski promo (SF) Dean Ho & Ron Starr promo (SF) Ed Wiskoski vs. Art Domingues – Wiskoski has Buddy Rose in his corner (SF) Ed Wiskoski & Buddy Rose Promo (LA) Roddy Piper confrontation with Hector Guerrerro (LA) Pedro Morales vs. Tokyo Joe – Spanish commentary as the LA group didn’t have English TV. (SF) Ed Wiskoski vs. Jerry Monte – Wiskoski has offered $10,000 to anyone who can beat him (SF) Ed Wiskoski promo – he’s from a long line of Polish Royalty (SF) Ed Wiskoski vs. Texas Red – Texas Red is Red Bastien under a hood. Buddy Rose is in Ed’s corner (SF) Ed Wiskoski promo – Texas Red interrupts 1970’s San Francisco (Roddy Piper eats a fish; Sullivan vs. Roop; Buddy Rose) San Francisco 1970’s Rick Thompson vs. Roddy Piper Roddy Piper eats a live gold fish Pepper Gomez & Takashi Inomi vs. Texas Red (Red Bastien) & Buddy Rose Buddy Rose promo Kevin Sullivan vs. Bob Roop Kevin Sullivan & Barry Orton vs. Von Steigers for the Tag Titles Roy Shire’s San Francisco/LA Promotion 1976 Piper vs Terry Sawyer V. Rivera & Canadian(Piper) vs Tom & SD Jones Pat Patterson-Canadian Confortation Gordman & Goliath vs Chavo & Canadian �turns heel Mando G. vs Canadian Cage Match Tx. Red & Mando G. vs Canadian & Alex Perez Rivera & Canadian vs Tx. Red & SD Jones Piper vs Chavo Gordman, Perez & Sawyer vs Mayne, Piper & R. Bass Bass & Hiro Ito vs Chavo & Gordman Piper vs Tony Milan + Promo Race vs M. Stallings+ Race Promo Hector vs Goliath Hector �Mayne Brawl B. Rose vs F. Monte Piper vs Lambert Piper & Bass vs Gordman & Sawyer Piper vs Thompson Piper vs P. Gomez Gomez & Japanese wrestler vs Tx. Red & Rose K. Sullivan vs Roop Von Steigers vs Sullivan &Barry O. Smirnoff vs Mexican Wrestler R. Stevens vs Johnny Charisma Smirnoff vs Dean Ho-Stevens save Von Steigers vs T. Heath & Ho Von Steigers handcuff Stevens Ho vs Roop TV Title Roop & Barry O. vs Ho & Heath Sullivan Vs Mr. Charisma Mando vs Gordman Rivera vs El Negro Rivera- Mando Confortation San Francisco 1976-1977 Shires San Fran 1978 (Piper, Sullivan, Mayne, Patterson etc) Piper Promo Piper vs Inoue Piper vs Moondog Mayne - US Title Rose & Texas Red vs Mando & Heath Dynamite Kid vs Nelson Royal Piper - Moondog Mayne -Confrontation Rose vs Mando Inoue & Tenyru vs Rose & TX. Red � Rose walks off B. Rose vs Hector G. Announcement of Mayne�s death K. Sullivan vs Roop Von Steigers vs Sullivan &Barry O. Smirnoff vs Mercado Von Steigers handcuff Stevens Roop & Barry O. vs Ho & Heath Sullivan Vs Mr. Charisma Muraco vs Thompson Patterson vs Mansfield Mayne vs Zatar California April - July 1978 Buddy Rose Interview Roddy Piper vs Guy Lambert Roddy Piper Interview Black Gordman and Terry Sawyer vs Roddy Piper and Ron Bass Moondog Mayne interview Moondog Mayne & Pak Chu Interview Buddy Rose & The Maskd Avenger attack Mando Guerrero Roddy Piper vs Rick Thompson California August - September 1978 Hiro Ota & Alexis Smirnoff vs Dean Ho & Texas Red Roy Shires Interview Buddy Rose vs Jimmy Snuka Chavo Guerrero vs Great Goliath Superstar Billy Graham vs Carlos Mata Roy Shire interview Takashi Onome & Tenryu Shimata vs Alexis Smirnoff & Buddy Rose Dean Ho interview Buddy Rose & Alexis Smirnoff interview Roddy Piper & Pak Chu vs Hector Geurrero & Tonga Roddy Piper & Java Ruuk interview Chavo Guerrero interview

Absolutely not.

Contributor but not solely responsible. The biggest blame in my view lies with the suits, especially Time-Warner: - Guaranteed contracts with creative control -- not Eric's idea and consistently tied his hands and undermined his authority. - Forcing Thunder on TV. Again not Eric's idea and he opposed it. - Booking. Eric was never the booker, but does take responsibility for failing to set coherent direction and also pandering to the boys too much, even allowing for creative control. - Failure to push young talent and make new stars. Partly Eric's fault, but those guaranteed contracts are the biggest problem. - Vince Russo. Eric didn't hire him. This feels like a pretty tired topic to me.

Caravaggio killed a guy he was arguing with over a tennis match; William S Burroughs shot his wife in the head; William Shakespeare illegally horded grain during a famine while people were dying of starvation in the street to make a fast buck; Woody Allen might well have slept with underage girls ... I don't care about any of this in the slightest when it comes to their work. Same is true of wrestlers.

I openly don't care about this, and it affects nothing for me.

Top work here! Down the line we might have to have you come on the All Japan Excite series. Only thing I'm missing is star ratings (cos I'm a ratings kinda guy).

We have covered the Bruno vs. Larry feud pretty comprehensively on Titans, as well as discussed Bruno at length. Kelly did a fantastic job of editing together all of our bits on Bruno (and Larry) in one show with a new (legit amazing) intro. If you have a genuine interest in Bruno, this would be the show for you: https://soundcloud.com/jerryvonkramer/bruno-vs-larry Listening back to it also reminded me just how many fantastic promos Bruno gives us during that feud. I might slip some more of them onto Youtube if I have time and there is interest. The "empty arena" interview he gives just before the one I posted is amazing. People really need to see some of this stuff.

Just a little bonus edition of the territorial explorations, I'm just going to look at three matches from the Texas All Star Battle of the Alamo '85. Hector Gurrerro vs. Dale Vasey (09/29/85) A poster on Classics claimed this was the bloodiest match he'd ever seen, and goc said he was disappointed. However, I couldn't look at this show without taking a look myself. Ted DiBiase joins commentary, and says its an honour to be there to make his first ever appearance in San Antonio. He also says his main goal is to win the World title from Ric Flair and he says he's second only to him right now in the world. Meanwhile, Hector gets Vasey in a sleeper. Side headlock by Hector and a lot of punches. Suplex by Hector. Full twist before a splash shows a bit of flash. Whoever is on commentary with Ted is absolutely awful. We take a break for someone to shill an upcoming card, "Golden Boy" Mike Golden dresses more or less exactly like Ric Flair -- well, if Flair wore cheap suits. Back to the match, and Hector pokes Vasey in the eye. He's a sneaky one. Backdrop. Legdrop. DiBiase isn't happy about Hector cheating, but the commentator defends him. Flashy-looking suplex by Hector. Piledriver. Ted mentions that they've been going for over 20 minutes, but we've not seen even half of that. Blows back and forth now. Both men down. Action goes outside and Hector gets posted. Hector goes to the eyes. Still outside. Back in and we get a ref bump. Apparently 30 minutes have gone. Vasey goes and grabs a chair but misses, three times. Catches a dropkick by Hector. Whacks Vasey with it for an instant DQ. Hector whacks him again. Ted calls Hector a poor loser. Continues to punch out Vasey. Ted says that Hector is acting like a child right now. Vasey posts him. Vasey bites on Hector's head. Both guys are bleeding now. Hector goes to the eyes again. Hector has bled all over the floor. To be fair, he is pretty covered in blood, but our friend from Classics needs to watch more wrestling. Not a bad match from what we saw, but nothing worth seeking out to be honest. We cut back to the commentators with Ted and he's got his classic beard and blonde hair. Definitive Ted look. There is an American commentator and a Spanish one right beside him, talking at the same time. In Spanish. Very weird production values. Chavo Gurrerro vs. Ted DiBiase (9/29/85) So I finally get to see this match I've been after for so long. Ted is the US champion. What belt is that you ask? I can't find any record of it, but it looks like it was a made-up title that Ted just debuted here with for this one-off appearance -- I guess a bit like how he debuted in 1979 in WWF as the North American champion. They claims that Ted beat Harley Race for this title, but that was entirely fictitious. Ted jaws Chavo to start and is poking him in the chest. Chavo tries to grab his hand and then Ted slaps him in the face. DiBiase has the black glove on and is in heel mode. After provoking Chavo's ire with the slap he backs off and bails. Chavo goes after him. He's ready to fight. Back in the ring and Ted begs off. Inside cradle attempt by Chavo leads to our transition and Ted gains control. Sleeper. Chavo seems to fade fast. Eventually he powers up and charges back into the turnbuckle to break. Ted goes for the second rope elbow that never hits and catches a shot to the gut for one of his signiture bumps. But manages to get a shinbreaker to turn back the tide. Goes for the figure four but Chavo kicks him off for a 360 bump over the top to the concrete. This commentator is a contender for all-time worst. I might even take the ROH guys over this dude. Crossbody by Chavo gets two. DiBiase goes to his trunks for the brass knucks but he misses with a swing and that allows Chavo to get in a German suplex for the 3-count. He's the new US champion! This seemed to be incredibly rushed to me. After the shine sequence, they seemed to go straight into the finishing stretch with a sleeper followed closely by a figure-four attempt. Chavo showed some good fire and Ted made him look good, but all-in-all, this probably wasn't worth the wait. Ha ha. I guess it was interesting to see Ted coming into what would have been the equivalent of a local indie promotion to do a one-off appearance as a big star coming in. Not a bad way to establish Chavo as the new US champ. Still, this promotion looks genuinely awful -- a far cry from the Southwest glory days back in 1980. $10,000 2-ring Battle Royale (9/29/85) So All Star were really pushing a guy called Big Bubba at this time. No, not Big Bossman, but Fred Ottman aka Tugboat aka Typhoon. They brought in One Man Gang for a little feud. We get highlights from this battle royale, which is clearly designed to put him over. Some of the stars involved here include DORY FUNK JR! One Man Gang! Chavo! The Hoods! (a featured tagteam) Kamala! Ernie Ladd! And (topical, RIP) Ox Baker! DiBiase! We skip to the closing moments where Dory Funk Jr is eliminate followed by Ox Baker, and then Chavo and Ted together. We're left with Big Bubba, One Man Gang and Killer Tim Brooks. Brooks and OMG beat on Bubba, but he soon dumps Gang But Gang doesn't leave, doesn't matter though cos Bubba backdrops Brooks out of the ring to win the big trophy and $10,000. ------- I've spent the best part of a week downloading this All-star stuff and this looks like a truly hideous promotion. If a young Fred Ottman is your best hope, you need to get out of the business. Beyond him, the cards a extremely thin. There's a very young Shawn Michaels knocking about with Paul Diamond. Al Madril seems to be a main eventer. So one might be wondering what the hell guys like Ted DiBiase, Dory Funk Jr, and the Los Gurreros were doing on this card. If you don't know, in 1985 Joe Blanchard was forced to sell his half of the Southwest Championship Wrestling promotion to Fred Behrend, who then changed the name to All-Star. Behrend had some working relationships with Watts and Fritz, which is why guys like Ernie Ladd and Killer Tim Brooks are on this card. Reading between the lines, it seems like Chavo might have been promised a decent main event run by Behrend around the summer of 85. He started working there in July 85 and won the tag titles with Al Madril. Chavo and Hector had spent most of the year working in Mid-South, and Chavo was working All-star at the same time as Mid-South. Hector doesn't look like he worked All-Star except for this one show, he worked Florida a little bit. Seems like Chavo was able to talk Ted into doing him a favour at this San Antonio show. DiBiase went on an All-Japan tour in August of 85, and presumably Dory Funk Jr had booked him on it. Since I suspect that they would have headed back to Texas together, I wonder if this is how Dory ended up working this show as well ... because then, Chavo and Hector end up going to All-Japan, with Ted and Dory in October -- they didn't go in August. Seems like a bit of quid pro quo: "if I come and work this show, you guys come on the next AJPW tour" Whatever the case, Chavo was done with All-Star by the end of the year and missed all of October for the Japan tour. Interestingly, for whatever reason, that was Chavo's last All Japan tour. He didn't go on the November-December one, and doesn't wrestle again in Japan period until 1996 when he has a one-off match with Fujinami for Muga. And after that not again until 2007! After the All Japan tour of October 85, Chavo and Hector stick with Mid-South and have matches with the Sheepherders and the Fabulous Ones. After March, Hector goes to Crockett, tags with Manny Fernandez, and goes on the GAB tour and stayed with them till December ... Chavo sticks with Watts for most of the year. All-Star would go bust in 1986.

I've uploaded this promo from Bruno. You tell me. Let me know what you think.

What is much more interesting though is doing a few google searches to see what the average fan "out there" on other boards said. Have a little read: http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=140221 How many of their opinions am I meant to be respecting? And also to see what sorts of top 50 lists that very mainstream sites like IGN come up with themselves. http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/11/02/top-50-wrestlers-of-all-time?page=5 1. Shawn Michaels 2. The Undertaker 3. Hulk Hogan 4. Steve Austin 5. Bret Hart [10. HHH] Reader's choice: 1. Shawn Michaels 2. The Rock 3. Steve Austin 4. The Undertaker 5. Bret Hart It's hardly surprising that the WWE are incredibly influential over their own fans.

Look at the list: 1 Shawn Michaels 2 The Undertaker 3 Stone Cold Steve Austin 4 Bret Hart 5 The Rock 6 Harley Race 7 Ricky Steamboat 8 André The Giant 9 Rey Mysterio 10 "Rowdy" Roddy Piper 11 Eddie Guerrero 12 Triple H 13 Gorgeous George 14 "Macho Man" Randy Savage 15 Mr. Perfect 16 John Cena 17 Ric Flair 18 Dusty Rhodes 19 Edge 20 Jerry "The King" Lawler 21 Lou Thesz 22 Terry Funk 23 Hulk Hogan 24 Bruno Sammartino 25 Chris Jericho 26 "Million Dollar Man" Ted DiBiase 27 The Fabulous Moolah 28 Freddie Blassie 29 Randy Orton 30 Pat Patterson 31 The Iron Sheik 32 Jimmy "Superfly" Snuka 33 Mick Foley 34 Kurt Angle 35 Buddy Rogers 36 Gorilla Monsoon 37 Junkyard Dog 38 "Superstar" Billy Graham 39 Jake "The Snake" Roberts 40 Big Show 41 Jack Brisco 42 Sgt. Slaughter 43 Kane 44 Nick Bockwinkel 45 Jeff Hardy 46 Dory Funk Jr. 47 Bob Backlund 48 "Ravishing" Rick Rude 49 Batista 50 Killer Kowalski It's an interesting mix of having enough names from the past in there to seem legit and "objective" while showing the WWE-warped version of history too. I love looking at this list, it's just so random. Why is Race just in there at #6 like that? Ha ha. Amazing list.

Who said it puts my nose out of joint? All I've said is that the perception (i.e. of him as a lock GOAT-type guy) comes primarily from the marketing. This portion of this thread started with a comparison to Bruno Sammartino's status as a folk hero.

Do you remember when Scott Keith used to call him the Lazy-Taker?

Okay two things: 1. I'm not saying that you can't have a valid opinion that Shawn is a great worker. It's well known that I'm really not a fan of his later career or of the WWE main event style he pioneered. If someone genuinely does their due diligence, watches footage from all over the place, and so on and still comes out thinking HBK is a top 5 guy, fine, great. That's your view. I don't mean disrespect to anyone. 2. My main point was nailed by someone earlier: it's the fact that the WWE have done a tremendous job of ensuring that many many fans hold the view of Michaels as being permanently "in the conversation" for GOAT. It's a standard almost de facto talking point as clear as debating Favre vs. Manning when discussing greatest NFL quarterbacks or Pele vs. Maradonna (now Messi vs. Ronaldo) in football. If you take the long view across wrestling history, that's just pure hype and I don't think -- objectively speaking -- that Michaels is necessarily a lock for that sort of position. His career just wasn't that good. He didn't have a Ric Flair-type career. You look at it and it's just not there. And this is my main point, that the perception comes from the packaging as much as anything else. I'm not having a go at WWE for doing it either, it is smart and it takes ownership of such debates -- they lock down and control wrestling history. They make sure they feed enough of the past to educate the fans a bit, but also make sure they position a guy like Michaels front and centre. Where are the Sting as GOAT arguments then? Why are you looking to the company for GOAT arguments? They call themselves the WWE Universe for chrissake, what do you expect? If you're looking for some bastion of the truth you're looking in the wrong place. I'm not, but the company tell me HBK is the GOAT anyway. And then loads of supposedly smart free-thinking fans repeat the line to me. A lot. Over and over again. For a decade.

Where are the Sting as GOAT arguments then?

I should also say that all of this is complicated slightly by the fact that -- as a result of said marketing -- Shawn DID then become a much bigger star than he had ever been before and then that kind of retconned his career into being and seeming a lot of significant than it was. By the late 00s, Shawn was probably a bigger star than he had ever been in the 90s.

And also, sure, "casual fans" have made their own minds up, just like they have about HHH. But what does your average casual fan think about Nick Bockwinkel? Oh, right, they don't. Call me snooty, or whatever you want, I think I'm just telling the truth.

Flair was absolutely marketed as a legend and even as GOAT, and I'm sure that 1000s of fans were affected by Jim Ross and others pushing him as such week in-week out, not to mention the mags. The difference is that by that point Flair was legitimately the second biggest draw in the US for the 80s and had been the NWA champion for almost a decade. Shawn was what? tag worker > IC champ for a bit > injured > world champ for a bit at a time when no one gave a shit > injured And yet when he did his come back run, he was presented in the same sorts of terms as a Flair or a Hogan or someone of that level. They were selling pure illusion of the idea of him as a guy like that, and somehow a lot of people bought it and then they put him in positions where he could "add to the legend". WWE have made sure that whenever GOAT conversations happen, Shawn's name is in the mix. There is no doubt in my mind at all that that wouldn't be the case without their marketing. It's a testament to the strength of that division, because his vastly inflated rep in the minds of casual fans is arguably one of their single most impressive achievements to date.

One thing they definitely didn't do is publish a book called "WWE's Top 50 Greatest Superstars" and rank Bruno at #1 Another thing they definitely didn't do is call him "Mr. MSG" on air. Another thing they didn't do when he came back after the Pedro run is refer to him on air as "the icon" or "the showstopper". After Backlund becomes champ, Bruno is still just crazy over and his push is essentially "working commentary with the occasional match at Philly or MSG". Or in 1980 it's working a featured feud with Larry Z. But the point is, that since Bruno just was a legit folk hero, they didn't really need to do all that much stuff. Yes, you had magazine articles galore on him (not put out by WWE), you even had TV documentaries on him (again not put out by WWE), because he was a proper star. It was about 10% down to presentation and 90% down to fans connecting with Bruno and legit loving him over many years. Michaels and his entire rep with WWE fans is almost totally manufactured. It's them being TOLD over and over and over again that this guy is an icon and a legend and a "showstopper" and someone who has really great matches. They are TOLD over and over and over again that Michaels's Wrestlemania matches are among the greatest of all time. And then, unsurprisingly, you get 1000s of fans internalising that hype and thinking that yes, surely, HBK is one of your greatest wrestlers of all time. HBK and his rep today are at least 90% down to presentation and about 10% down to fans. It's the WWE literally saying "look, we know he didn't draw in 1994 or 1996, and, in fact, we know as well as anyone that even when he was a babyface you didn't really like this guy BUTTTTTT he's an amazing performer, he's an icon, he's one of the most important people in the history of this company, he's MR WRESTLEMANIA, he's one of the biggest stars of all time, he's actually the number #1 wrestler of all time, you HAVE to love him". And so people do.

But pretend for a second that Team WCW consisted of Hogan, Savage, Flair and Sting, do you really think he would have been jobbing those guys out? Even if he wanted to, it's Hogan, it's Savage, these guys aren't laying down easily. In fact, you could see some sort of twist of Hogan and Vince teaming up as TEAM WWF, either as heels (WE BUILT THIS COMPANY) or faces (remember Wrestlemania I? These WCW guys want to destroy what we built Hulk). Could have any number of Savage, HHH, Foley, Taker, Nash or Hall line up behind them, depending on if you're playing it up as heelish (WE ARE THE COMPANY) or faceish (nostalgia for all the WWF memories) And against them, again either as face or heel, you can have Flair (I always HATED the WWF!), Austin ("I hate YOU Vince!"), and Sting ("I never want to work for the WWF"). Maybe Luger could be part of that team ("You screwed me with Lex Express!" Vince: "Yeah! Well you could never fill HOGAN'S BOOTS anyway!). A dream dream scenario would be to play it where both sides are sort of tweeners, where you can see some of their arguments, and this way you get buy-in from old WCW fans too. That would have been the angle to end them all. But they couldn't run it. They had to run shit involving DDP and Booker T, so what do you expect really? Not so much saying that Vince doesn't have an ego, so much as do you think ANY booker is going to book second-tier stars over their own top talent? No they aren't. All of the aces of WCW weren't playing ball because they could sit at home and count the fat checks. I'm sure the story they ran with wasn't anyone's idea of ideal, but Vince probably wanted to wrap everything up on TV so the buyout was dealt with in kayfabe terms. When the star power was so thin on WCW side, burial seems like one of the wiser options. The dream storyline wasn't an option unless you wait the contracts out.

How much was the angle hurt by availability of talent though? All of the big-name guys on massive guaranteed contracts wasn't Vince's fault. You can't present Buff Bagwell as an equal to a top WWF star just because he happened to be around. With respect to them, "Booker T and DDP" doesn't have the same ring to it as "Hogan and Savage". The angle couldn't have worked properly without those big names, and the botch job we got instead is partly a tacit recognition of that from the office. Maybe they could have tried to hold off on it until Hogan and co were available again come 2002/3 sort of time, but that's an awfully long time to keep WCW on life support for an angle, especially if 1. it was losing money and 2. networks didn't want to show it. I think the "Vince's ego" line is a real scapegoat, and a lazy and easy one to make that masks over the reality of the situation. Vince's ego has never had a problem making Vince look like an idiot or be the fall guy on TV if it's going to make money.

Didn't Inoki and Saito once wrestle on an island for 2 days?

Fucking phenomenal

I'm not sure how far we can use Scott and Justin as an example, when they both have over 300 podcasts to their names featuring God knows how many hours of audio talking about and analyzing wrestling, and are plugged into various online communities including this one: if they do count as the sort of fan I'm talking about, they would be the extreme end of an iceberg and in the top 5 percentile.