JerryvonKramer

I'd much prefer to watch Lucha over shoot style if you held a gun to my head so there's that.

Random thought but I wonder what Mil Mascaras's rating was year by year vs next closest luchadore

It comes down to this. I've tried watching Lucha, and while I appreciate some of the matches, as an overall 'thing' I just don't enjoy it on the way I do other things. I don't think as fans we have a duty to watch particular styles or promotions if we prefer other things. That's not an attack on Lucha fans though. We're allowed to like different things and that doesn't make anyone a better or worse fan. We're just human. If you like something and think it's great, that's fine but don't take it personally that not everyone does. Yip

RIP Tremendous heel

Less a hang up more wanting to get what people I respect and like get. That's not a hang up. It's probably the place new fans of things usually come from. Yeah I just went and had a look at that again: http://placetobenation.com/greatest-wrestler-ever-project-postscript/ Doesn't look like an angry rant to me.

Was a coincidence. My point was really that outside of the GWE, there aren't any stakes. I maintain GWE was a net negative, increased tribalism decreased community, artificially turned even innocent conversions into things that suddenly seemed to have great weight placed on them. People will talk up the fact everyone got exposed to more wrestling, I'll point to the fact that everyone is a bit more silo'd and less friendly than they used to be... fitting for 2016 I guess. And now Grimmas is saying things like he doesn't want to watch puro cos puro fans ignore lucha...

LOL!!!!!!! Let's see what happens when someone says Dory sucks or Flair isn't a top ten wrestler of all time. Do you find that antagonist?Outside of the context of GWE, I couldn't care lessYour response to me making a joke on twitter about Jimmy Golden putting Flair to sleep like Flair's 60 minute draws did to me really say otherwise. No clue what this is in reference to

But it's different and challenges you to think more than "oh look at Kobashi chop this guy really hard" so just say it sucks and move on. I do feel victimised for not liking lucha, truth be told. Well let me say that's pretty ridiculous as there are more people in this thread saying "I've never really gotten into lucha" than beating the lucha drum. If you've been "victimised" in this thread it's because you went out of your way to try and antagonize people who do like lucha by saying "it sucks" or dismissing and mocking people's posts defending it or trying to explain why it's not as popular as other forms of wrestling. If you walk down the street with a kick me sign on your back, you don't get to claim you're a victim when someone kicks you. It's not at all me who needs the thicker skin, it's Lucha fans if they really see someone saying "Lucha sucks" as antagonism. Got to deal with that better I think. Cos you know most people aren't actually as polite as I am online. LOL!!!!!!! Let's see what happens when someone says Dory sucks or Flair isn't a top ten wrestler of all time. Do you find that antagonist? Outside of the context of GWE, I couldn't care less

This is getting off topic. As I've said before opinions don't happen in a vacuum, Kobashi has a whole critical narrative around him and Taue has had another one. Whether or not people are aware of it, statements on either of them will be taken with reference to those narratives.Typically on any given thing you'll get an orthodoxy that emerges, then a revisionist position and then possibly even a counter revisionist one. A lot of my positions might be described as "counter-revisionist" because most of the time the push back has been too much. Flair, Dory, three pillars, many times the criticisms are pushed to an extreme. Other times like on Luger, Garvin, and a whole host of others, I'm more on board with the revisionist message. If you want to say I've made the three positions up, it's cool because I don't know if you haven't noticed but I've barely discussed any of these things since April. None of this has anything to do with lucha either. There in lies the problem. The narrative on lucha is completely flat out wrong. The narrative is, it's hard to get into, has no psychology and is all floaty and dives. No luchador is a great worker, except maybe Casas. That is just plain wrong. It's also why it's so easily dismissed. The narrative says it sucks, so why would it get any coverage or look at? How established is this narrative though? Who says this? Sounds like stuff I've said but in all the talk I've ever had around those views I've felt quite firmly in the minority.

This is all just rubbish since I never said any of it. I never said fans don't genuinely hold their views. You inferred that but I never said it.

But it's different and challenges you to think more than "oh look at Kobashi chop this guy really hard" so just say it sucks and move on. I do feel victimised for not liking lucha, truth be told. Well let me say that's pretty ridiculous as there are more people in this thread saying "I've never really gotten into lucha" than beating the lucha drum. If you've been "victimised" in this thread it's because you went out of your way to try and antagonize people who do like lucha by saying "it sucks" or dismissing and mocking people's posts defending it or trying to explain why it's not as popular as other forms of wrestling. If you walk down the street with a kick me sign on your back, you don't get to claim you're a victim when someone kicks you. It's not at all me who needs the thicker skin, it's Lucha fans if they really see someone saying "Lucha sucks" as antagonism. Got to deal with that better I think. Cos you know most people aren't actually as polite as I am online.

At least I didn't make ridiculous posts about cultural imperialism which absolutely deserve ridicule.

But it's different and challenges you to think more than "oh look at Kobashi chop this guy really hard" so just say it sucks and move on. I do feel victimised for not liking lucha, truth be told.

This is getting off topic. As I've said before opinions don't happen in a vacuum, Kobashi has a whole critical narrative around him and Taue has had another one. Whether or not people are aware of it, statements on either of them will be taken with reference to those narratives. Typically on any given thing you'll get an orthodoxy that emerges, then a revisionist position and then possibly even a counter revisionist one. A lot of my positions might be described as "counter-revisionist" because most of the time the push back has been too much. Flair, Dory, three pillars, many times the criticisms are pushed to an extreme. Other times like on Luger, Garvin, and a whole host of others, I'm more on board with the revisionist message. If you want to say I've made the three positions up, it's cool because I don't know if you haven't noticed but I've barely discussed any of these things since April. None of this has anything to do with lucha either.

If it's easier for everyone to believe that wrestling elitism is something I've made up let's roll with that. It seems like people are broadly agreed now that it's not a very big deal that a good chunk of fans don't think Lucha is for them. That seems like a decent common ground.

Exactly

PWO posters challenge "the orthodoxy" every time they write a review. People who like Lucha will talk about Lucha more, people who like shoot style will talk about that more. It is what it is. What's the problem? People will champion stuff they think is underrated, great. I just think people should also be allowed to say "yeah that's not for me" and for everyone to be cool with it. This thread isn't cool with people not liking Lucha. It thinks it is some sort of problem, it isn't. Let it be.

Ultimately all I'm trying to say is that this will always go on no matter what. Just roll with it. Talk about the stuff you like, don't moan about why more people don't like it or talk about it.

When I hear the same talking points parroted from place to place that looks like a trend to me, which is the definition of "trendy".

I just don't see why Steven has a problem with it, just let everyone get on with it.

If you don't think certain narratives or workers don't get "trendy" even on PWO, you haven't been reading very hard.

There's the mainstream cool and the alternative cool

It was cool to like Kawada in 1999 whereas in 2014 it was cool to like El Dandy and beat AJPW = excessive talking points to death while saying something like "Taue was underrated ".

Is there such a thing as a hardcore WoS fan who looks down on lucha fans looking down on Japanese wrestling fans looking down on US wrestling fans? Take a look in the mirror. Although it's probably a very small Venn diagram.

You should look at it another way: Hardcore WWE fans look down on casual fans Hardcore fans (whether indie or old-school NWA) look down on WWE fans Puro fans look down on US fans Lucha fans look down on all of the above WOS / Euro fans look down on all of the above This is the wrestling hierarchy of hipsterdom and cool. Joshi I don't even know. How could the most hardcore of hardcores feel good about themselves if there wasn't Lucha. This will be seen as a troll-y post but I think it is basically true. I only ever got to level 3 in my fandom some people got to level 5. At some point you just gotta be cool with it. Scott and Justin are never gonna get into Misawa and Kobashi, it's all cool we can talk about Hogan. Don't see why you can't see it like that too.