JerryvonKramer

With Jim Ross in WCW, what Chad and I have found across many cards is that he can be annoying and grating and even snarky or down on the match during the undercard, especially a shitty undercard, and then he comes alive for the big main events. Ross's real value was in getting across the historical importance of big title matches and making them feel like the most important thing in the entire world. He is great in all the big marquee Flair matches. When it's time for Big Josh, not so much. I think this is Ross's big weakness as an announcer is that you can basically tell when he wasn't engaged himself as a wrestling fan. He doesn't bury undercard fodder, but you can tell he doesn't care about it and he does nothing at all to make it any more enjoyable either. Almost the flipside is Gorilla Monsoon who comes into his own and really starts earning his money during those crappy undercard matches where -- even if he's not exactly getting the action or the match over -- he's keeping things entertaining for you to make the shit watchable. Especially if Jesse or Bobby were with him. Gorilla did that stuff very well, and in a way that Ross was never able to, not even when he had Lawler to play off. When Ventura tries to push him into that stuff during undercard matches in 92, Ross resists. So there are really two versions of Jim Ross. Main event Ross is one of the best commentators of all time, he really is. Undercard Ross is a lot of the things El-P talked about.

This is an excellent post on Vince. Not saying he's my pick, but I'd add to it by saying that that Vince was also really good back before the expansion through the 70s and early 80s, either working on his own or with any number of accented colour men, mostly Bruno but also Pat Patterson or Tony Garea on occassion. Up until Montreal Vince had been on air as a major commentator for over 20 years. Oh and his pre-show shills for PPVs in the 80s were sensational, y'know when he'd run down the cards. --------- I'm interested that Solie isn't getting more votes. I wonder if this exact same poll over at Classics would yield different results or not. I'm not a member of Classics, but it might be interesting to see what the crowd over there would vote and what they'd say. Also, who voted for Schiavone?!

Some people think Vince didn't innovate anything. Personally, I think that's seriously blinkered verging on total idiocy, but they do exist and post on this forum.

After four shows, I'm giving Robley a rest now, so been listening to the Bill Apter one. It's interesting that they get into a debate. Apter thinks that Vince revolutionised wrestling by giving the fans "an innovative product that they hadn't seen before" and "creating a new type of fan". Gary Cubeta disagreed and argued that what Vince had was the national TV. Sound familar? Apter's argument hit the same points as my own did: marketing, modernising the product, packaging of stars etc. etc. Cubeta did concede later though that Vince is "unquestionably the most creative individual in the history of wrestling". Apter was a good guest.

Thanks for letting me know.

Officially unsubscribing. What a wasted opportunity.

I'm interested to see who would win this poll here, and what reasons people will give. The emphasis here is on BEST not favourite. Some criteria: - Importance to promotion - Effectiveness at getting over talent - Effectiveness at getting over storylines and angles - Ability to enhance matches with their calls - Voice, can't be underestimated

What's funny about that too is that he makes out that he's the most in-demand booker pretty much ever, and yet winds up booking Central States, the armpit of the NWA. He claims that on the back of that "hot" run in Kansas everyone wanted a piece of him, but he ends up booking Jerry Blackwell's minor league indy Atlanta promotion and Puerto Rico after the death of Brody. My impression is that he basically burnt his bridges with all the major places and people and if the story with Brody holding up the belt is true, surely would have been blackballed after that.

So?

You were definitely ahead of the curve.

Titans Xtra - 1981 Roster Analysis Part 2: Memphis, Texas, Portland, Central States https://soundcloud.com/jerryvonkramer/titans-xtra-1981-roster-analysis-part-2 Parv, Kelly and Dylan rate the rosters of the other NWA promotions that were active in the USA at that time: CWA (Memphis), WCCW (Texas), PNW (Portland), and CSW (Central States).

More thoughts from the rest of part 3: - The story about Robley and Brody screwing Flair in St. Louis and holding up the NWA title is basically disgraceful. I don't see how Buck can justify that sort of behaviour at all. Okay, sure, Giegel was short-changing him on the payments and I don't doubt that, but don't go into business for yourself when the NWA title is involved. What the fuck? No respect for that sort of behaviour at all. - I just can't understand why Robley went back to book for Colon when Gonzalez killed his best friend. His explaination of that -- that he wanted to hear Gonzalez's side of the story and possibly to get revenge -- is just total BS. I think the truth is just that he wanted to feel useful and when Colon wanted a favour wanted to go in there as the big man, OR he just needed the cash and was too proud to admit it. Either way, I lost even more respect for him when he told that story. He lost me with that fifty minutes or so. I'll listen to the others, but I definitely don't like Robley much as a man.

I've been listening to the Buck Robley shows, 30 minutes into the third show now. I can't decide if I like him or not. He's one of these guys who thinks everything he did was the best thing ever. His idea that promoters were scared to put him on TV because he'd be so over is patently ridiculous, and it doesn't seem to occur to him that it's because they didn't want a booker pushing himself. A few points of irritation: - He is very strong about the need for promoters to let certain people be beat. He wanted Tommy Rich beat in Georgia, he wanted the Von Erichs beat in Texas. All well and good and his logic is perfectly sound BUT why's he then so insistant that Brody's shoulders don't go down? I don't get that at all, it's like a direct contradiction. One rule for everyone else, and another for Brody. The fact that he seems completely blind to it is annoying. - On that note, Brody was obviously an asshole to The Funks in Japan. Dory put him over and then he didn't return the favour. I can understand why Terry ended up punching Robley on the plane. Brody is so important he can't lay down for the fucking Funks in Japan? - I don't get why he keeps going on about how he beat the shit out of Tommy Rich on TV. He's obviously proud of it, but what does it prove? The punchline -- and he tells it about 20 times -- is that Barnett loved it, but Solie was outraged, and he ended up drawing a big gate at the Omni with Abby vs. Brody on top, but this is in some way evidence that he was right to do that to Rich on TV. I don't get it, doesn't marry up at all. Robley is full of these logical fallacies. - I think he was unreasonably harsh to Fritz after Mike von Erich was found dead. His wife is there crying, and Fritz wants to put on a double memorial show for his two dead sons, and Robley cusses him out? Even the normally sycophantic Gary Cubeta is like "dude, WTF!". Robley tries to explain this away by Fritz seemingly not caring and focusing on business, but I think it's a real lack of empathy to cuss out a guy whose son has just died. I mean, so what if the memorial show didn't draw, that made me really think that Buck wasn't a nice guy. - He wants to take a lot of credit for a lot of things, but everyone else is an idiot who doesn't know what they are doing. If you listen to Robley, he's the brains behind Brody, everything The Freebirds ever did, Watts, and St. Louis. He rates himself as being some sort of creative genius. I'm sure he was a good booker, but his completely lack of modesty or perspective is starting to grate. Just my impressions so far.

Don't know about you, but one thing I've really struggled to do is find an equivalent of a PWO for my other interests. Video games, yes, I've been part of a community for over a decade that spawned from the PC Gamer UK board. Music is almost too diverse and you don't get the quality of discussion. Closest I've found is the Expecting Rain boards but they are Bob Dylan centric. The Criterion film boards can be a good read but for some reason I don't find myself compelled to engage or post, I've made a few but never stick around. Football discussion online is really really appalling, yet to find anywhere decent. So being part of a community like this gives wrestling a particular boost.

Actually you're right, Malenko was more a guy people would point to as being underrated in order to prove their smart credentials. Either way he was an internet darling for years.

I bet Ray Stevens seemed like the coolest man in the entire world to you! Ceejay, look out for a Titans Xtra in a couple of weeks when we'll be devoting a whole show to breaking down rosters from the Canadian territories circa 1981. I'm really looking forward to Kelly's take on how those promotions compared, some of our off-air chats about that sort of thing have been pretty interesting. However, I came to this thread because I'm also a heel fan, and for me I just love villainy and get a real kick out of it. As a kid, I legit rooted for Skeletor and was disappointed when He-Man would kick his arse every week. I LOVED Batman because of the villains -- especially the 1966 versions of the characters. I'd go as far as to say that were it not for larger than life heels, I probably wouldn't be a wrestling fan period. That was the hook for me. I rooted for heels properly. I genuinely Hogan to lose and would always be disappointed when he'd win again after every show. I bought into Jesse Venutra's take on things wholesale. I even tried to justify Bobby Heenan's BS to friends and things. I was basically a propagandist for the heel point of view. Hated Warrior, hated Bret Hart, hated Dusty, really HATED Duggan. There were certain babyfaces I could tolerate: Randy Savage as a face I liked. Ricky Steamboat also, looked so cool to me as a kid that I liked him despite being a goody-two-shoes. I still liked Mr. Perfect when he turned face, but supported Ric Flair in that fued. I used to get worked up about injustices, especially when the rules would change just to suit Hogan. When the ref ordered that Money Inc would lose the titles on a count out at Wrestlemania 9, I was up in arms. I'm not entirely sure where it comes from. For me a combination of: - villainy is cooler and much more FUN than heroism - the show WANTS you to think in a certain way, and so the intellectual rebel goes the opposite way - connected with the above when everyone loves one thing, some people of a certain disposition carve out a niche in the other direction. All your mates like Ultimate Warrior? Fuck that, I'm going to like IRS. - more heels have beards

I think it would be interesting for people to compare Malenko to Dory Funk Jr, who is fast becoming my pick for "underrated" (see my ongoing chronicles in Microscope). Dory was also smooth as hell at matwork and chain wrestling, but not only gives you struggle, but also does very smart little things like leaning in on a headlock with his whole body. Given that both guys are seen as lacking charisma, I think it'd be an apt comparison point. While I'm on the topic, Dory is vastly underrated as a worker of brawls. People maybe think of the match he had in ECW, where I've seen people on this board say he looked clueless and like he didn't know what he was doing, but I reckon he was probably just OLD. His performances in the Sheik/Abby series are great, and the stuff of his I've found working as a dick heel in Florida circa 81 demonstrates him showing that darker side in another context. I'm not calling for a wholescale reassessment of Dory, just to point out that I think he is the victim of more stereotyping (partly because of his look) than most guys on PWO, and that he has more than his fair share of great performances in his locker. I've probably been as guilty of that stereotyping as anyone in the past. To tie it back to Malenko, I'd be interested to see if he has any brawls on the level of Dory's. A Dory vs. Malenko comparison is much more apt and interesting than a Flair vs. Malenko one I think. You've got the sacred cow of 70s technical style vs. the sacred cow of the 90s IWC. Both of them have suffered a decline in rep on PWO, both of them worked a kind of "ice man" persona. Dory was obviously a much bigger star than Dean, but I think the point still stands.

I was thinking about it before and perhaps I have only one interest, which is to develop knowledge and interest in stuff to the point of being a "connoisseur" of the said thing. It's terribly bourgeois, and I didn't mention my other obsessions like finding the best burger in London or fine dining, etc. But virtually all my interests entail sampling a range of stuff, learning about their history, analysing and rating them, and then drawing conclusions. So in essence the real interests / activities are: - breadth of research (i.e. wideness of range, could entail seeking out a 1930s blues record, a match from the 1970s no one talks about, an obscure indie game etc.) - history or "depth of research" - analysis - comparison - judgement That's the central throughline to everything I do, including work. I've often thought that there's no real difference to how I approach work or "pleasure". I make notes even when I play video games (stuff like Football Manager, or TEW, or whatever). What an incredibly boring guy I am ... no fun at parties! Ha ha ha.

Thanks mate. Next few shows are all going to be 1981, there are a lot more companies to get through and we're trying to leave no stone unturned. I'd be interested to know if you agree with our ratings. Incidentally, since recording, I found out a few things we didn't mention: - Ole Anderson was booking Crockett for most of 81, while Crockett himself was NWA President. I believe Ole would go back to GCW and Dory Funk Jr took over in Mid-Atlantic in 82. - Speaking of Dory, he was booking CWF at this time, not Dusty. This partly accounts for Terry being there and partly for Dory being top heel during the summer and for the Briscos sticking around. I believe Dusty replaced Dory when he went to Crockett and then replaced him again in 83 for JCP when the Funks went back to Japan. - Jim Barnett went through three bookers in 81: Robert Fuller, Buck Robley and eventually Ole who at one point was booking BOTH GCW and JCP! I may be doing a timeline for who booked where and when soon.

The guy who thinks Malenko was better than Flair is calling someone else a contrarian?

Do you really think Randy Rose was better than any one of Gordy, Roberts or Hayes? Seems ridiculous to me, but I have not seen a lot of Original Midnights in their original run. Randy Rose, to me, is the epitome of a guy who could eek out a middling career in the territories but would have (and should have) been basically a jobber in the national era. Then again, I rather controversially think this about Robert Gibson too. And a lot of it is because I think they look like jobbers. What are some performances that you'd point to to suggest that Rose was anything above a mediocre talent?

Ergo, Dean Malenko is a better wrestler?

For people's consideration: - Larry Zbysko nailing Bruno with the chair / Bruno's promo after that, which for me is one of the best of all time - Arnold Skaaland throwing in the towel vs. Iron Sheik to end Backlund's six-year run - Cyndi Lauper confronts Lou Albano -- seriously if you haven't seen this angle play out it's just one of the best things ever ever - Roddy Piper hits Jimmy Snuka with a coconut. Piper was just electric at this point. - Andre turning on Hogan and grabbing the cross, a turn that had been 15 years in the making - Jesse Ventura shits all over Uncle Elmer's wedding. One of the best 15 minutes in wrestling history, I'm deadly serious about that too. - Jake Roberts's promo at Wrestlemanai VI, again for my money one of the greatest ever, or his one from This Tuesday in Texas. - Hogan and Warrior square off during Royal Rumble 90, massive moment - Debut of the Undertaker at Survivor Series 90 - Virgil finally turns on Ted DiBiase at Royal Rumble 91 or the win at Summerslam 91. Either way, tremendous pay off to a superbly built slow-burn angle. - Ric Flair's promo on Hogan. "When you were making movies, Thunderlips, I was winning world titles". Just so good. - Ric Flair's post-match promo at Royal Rumble 92, awesome. - Ric Flair's post-match promo after losing the belt at Wrestlemania 8. "One-time means NOTHING to my career". Fucking phenomenal. Maybe more later. I think people tend to go "iconic" with these sorts of things, but I'm going with stuff that stays in your heart. This stuff is the meat and bones of why I'm a wrestling fan, it runs through my veins.

Question: is there no chance at all that they'll find another TV slot? I mean there's a lot of channels out there. Spike have dropped shows before that resurface elsewhere. Isn't it a bit premature to suggest that this is definitely the end of the line for them? Also, for full disclosure, my own position on TNA is that I like to pretend they don't exist, so I have literally no view on them at all. Just genuinely wondering why another TV deal with another channel is not really being entertained in this thread.

I'm quite torn on this show. On the one hand there are aspects that make me frustrated, not just things I disagree with but views that I consider to be regurgitations of commonplaces that this forum does a special line in dismantling. On the other, I think it's quite fun and refreshing to hear views that get such a vehement reaction. I don't care to discuss HBK; I think his best work was in The Rockers. Think it's one of those things we're so far apart on that we'll never agree. I don't think my views on that are as uncommon here as it might be assumed. I thought the discussion about pre-expansion WWF wasn't very well informed with a lot of received opinions, generalisations and assumptions flying around. It's put me -- me of all people -- in the position of defending Backlund. He did work a technical style, his row row arm wrenches, his headlocks, his counter wrestling -- pretty "scientific". And the idea that a bodyslam was a high spot, seems to imply they weren't busting out suplex variations, Bob has a ton of them. His PILEDRIVER is more brutal than any high spot in the rest of the WWF in the 80s. He also had plenty of great matches. I don't really mind opinions with which I disagree but that stuff seemed lazy to me.