JerryvonKramer

Just heard a cool story I'd never heard before about how Alfred Hayes became "Lord" Alfred Hayes and got his move to America. They were wrestling at the Royal Albert Hall, where apparently the Duke of Edinburgh used to be a regular and one time him or another Duke got into the ring and shook hands with all the wrestlers. Hayes managed to get hold of a photo of the Duke shaking his hand and then sent the picture to promotions round the world which got him booked. Love that story, everything about it says "pro wrestling".

I find it impossible not to love Ricky Morton. He always comes across as a very sincere guy who has given his life for the business, and despite being screwed over multiple times, he seems like he's come to the point where he isn't that completely bitter fuck that he could be. He gave some great insights into in-ring psychology here and it was cool when he was comparing Ole to Arn and Tully, and when they were discussing calling it in the ring. Fantastic interview.

Killer Kowalski clawhold on the fucking leg ... for 15 minutes.

As I watch more 70s footage, I've noticed that SO many of the older workers, especially in New York, just don't bump. We've discussed it on Titans that, for example, Lou Albano wouldn't take a bump, but he's far from the only one. Denucci wouldn't take a back bump. Scicluna wouldn't bump. Strongbow didn't really bump. So many of them rarely if ever leave their feet and if they do, it's not really bumping as we think of it. Come to think of it Crusher and Bruiser don't really bump either. What I'm wondering about is if this was just because these guys were old and trying to protect their bodies, or whether it was a style thing from the 1960s. There's like a quantum leap between those 60s guys working in the 70s and guys like Harley Race or Terry Funk doing dramatic bumps over the top rope. Other big bumpers from the era include Bobby Heenan, Pat Patterson and Jerry Valiant, but they all seem exceptions to the general rule. I want to know more about the history of bumping.

I loved the collective sigh and groaning when Steven announced his number 1. "It wasn't good blood", ha ha ha. This was a fun show. Just want to mention that my top blood match is Terry Funk and Dory Funk Jr vs. The Sheik and Abdullah the Butcher (9/19/78) -- I put this above the MS-1 vs. Sangre Chicana match everyone pimps (which I do like a lot), and WELL above the Rockers vs. Rose and Somers matches; about on par with Magnum-Tully "I Quit" -- more people need to talk about that match. All four guys covered in blood, and one of the best injury sell jobs in the history of the known universe by The Sheik. It's a true blood bath. Also, for terrific Bobby Heenan blood performances see the first matches I cover here, which might be the same stuff that Will and Phil were referencing. Crusher and Bruiser vs. Blackjacks in a cage. They fucking beat the shit out of Heenan there. And THEN, his match vs. Pepper Gomez which follows it on that Luce disc which is one of the most incredible blade jobs ever ever. Heenan is top 3 bleeder in my view.

Well, that and Skype, Dylan.

What sort of gates were each of those houses though? Is Chicago really comparable to MSG? Milwaukee to Philly? Winnipeg to Boston, etc., etc. Where's that khawk signal!! I don't really have a sense of how well their top draws drew in the different places. Would Crusher and Dick the Bruiser sell out around the horn? Was Verne popular everywhere? My gut feeling is that the metropolitan areas of the Mid-West and Great Lakes just don't compare at all with the North East. New York area has 20 million+ alone, another 8-9 million in Pennsylvania, another 7 or 8 in Boston area, that's without getting into significant secondary markets like Pittsburgh or Baltimore. One thing people don't talk about much is how (W)WWF / Capitol was actually an amalgamation of smaller promotions that were united under Toots Mondt and Vince Sr. It wasn't like one territory, it was already like 4 or 5 in one. Outside of the Chicago area, the metropolitan areas for AWA country are all more like 2-3 million people. By my reckoning the total net of potential people of for (W)WWF was at least five times as big as AWA's, if not more. You can even take out New York entirely, and it would still be bigger. Still, if AWA were drawing 15,000+ gates in at least four major towns month to month, then I stand to be corrected, and it would be in a sense more impressive than what WWF were doing because the pool is that much smaller. But I'll leave it for the numbers guys. PS. Love those pics!

http://placetobenation.com/titans-of-wrestling-32-wwwf-at-madison-square-garden-march-17th-1975/ Parv, Pete, Johnny and Kelly lanny leap back to 1975 for this MSG card. On the docket: Indian Jay Strongbow vs. Butcher Vachon Bruno Sammartino vs. Sprios Arion Killer Kowalski vs. Victor Rivera The Valiants vs. Tony Garea and Dean Ho On this show: - Talking point: Bruno vs. Hogan as two different types of draws - Spiros Arion, the forgotten man - Kowalski vs. Rivera one of the worst matches of all time on one of the worst cards of all time? - Why did Vince Sr structure his cards in the way he did? - Plus: has Titans Xtra caused tension in the Fab Four?, Bruno's hair, Bob E. Lee (the Finks predecessor at MSG), and much much more. The PWO-PTBN Podcast Network features great shows you can find right here at Place to Be Nation. By subscribing on iTunes or SoundCloud, you’ll have access to new episodes, bonus content, as well as a complete archive of: Where the Big Boys Play, Titans of Wrestling, Pro-Wrestling Super-Show, Good Will Wrestling, and Wrestling With the Past.

Can you move this thread to Podcasts and Publications?

Yeah, we covered some of Race's squashes and the Race vs. Backlund match on the regular Titans show. That is one of my least favourite matches ever. They scarcely treated Race like a big deal.

Didn't Dory theoretically book Final Conflict? I've heard he basically booked by committee and was very hands off. The WWF being in the NWA thing is a point we've discussed many times on Titans, and I'm still not clear on the key question: did the WWF recognise the NWA champ as THE champ? Was the WWF champ theoretically a world champ or just a regional champ like the Mid-Atlantic champ or the Florida champ? That is the crucial issue. I've argued before that it wasn't really a world title, but at different times it was treated as one. For example in the Graham vs. Race matches. Or when Backlund would go down to Florida or over to Japan to defend the title. I know technically WWF was an NWA member in 81, but for the purposes of this exercise it seemed to make more sense to treat them separately, because they had their own champ. Solie would mention the NWA all the time on GCW and Florida. They'd mention NWA all the time on JCP. You never hear Vince mention NWA unless Race is on the card, and even then it's like no one gives a shit. New York was its own thing.

I did look this up and basically Strongbow didn't have enough matches anywhere to make the lists. In the first quarter of 81 he was working WWC (Puerto Rico) and then spent the rest of the year in Mid-Atlantic. He doesn't look like he was working a full schedule though and was most likely winding down. He brings his sorry ass back to WWF in 82 where I'm sure he became part of the office. We're going to touch on this in a discussion at the start of the next regular Titans show (#32). My take actually is that the draw wasn't so much the belt for most of Vince Sr's reign but basically just Bruno who was so over that he could carry an entire card and roster. Almost didn't even matter who he was against. But this didn't mean that (W)WWF could take their crowds for granted in the North East -- as you can see with Buddy Rogers before Bruno and late-reign Backlund and then, interestingly, Hogan after him. This will be the crux of the conversation. I don't believe the tag titles were a draw. They always stick them in the curfew slot in 30-minute matches, usually featuring the Samoans, that seem designed to send you to sleep. I've sometimes wondered if it's a deliberate thing "alright, you've had your night's entertainment, move along nothing to see here ... it's time to go home". We'll also be talking about the way Vince Sr constructed his cards with the main event in the middle on the next show, cos sometimes it is hard to fathom the direness of the last 2-3 matches on an MSG card. Headline a show with any of those tag matches with no Bruno or Andre on the card and I wonder if they'd get even 8,000.

I have to be honest, I quite like the use of wrestling phrases "out of context". Like some weird Clockwork-Orange-like lingo.

Titans Xtra - 1981 Roster Analysis Part 3: WWF, AWA, Mid-South https://soundcloud.com/jerryvonkramer/titans-xtra-1981-roster-analysis-part-3 Parv, Kelly and Dylan continue their journey through the rosters of 1981, this time focusing on the three biggest independent promotions in the USA: WWF, AWA and Mid-South.

Would love to see someone take up that challenge.

I was thinking about the 1986 encounter on SNME. It was a match for the IC title and I thought there was a little bit of lead-in for it? Can't remember, both guys had feuded with Steamboat. I was asking if we'd count it. I honestly can't think of too many heel vs. heel matches, let alone feuds.

Would we count Jake vs. Savage briefly before both of them turned?

Oh yeah, that's right, he did talk about that too. Very weird to have Iron Sheik vs. Ivan. How many heel vs. heel feuds are there period? I can remember Martel vs. Michaels from 92. Beyond that I can't think of many. There are some examples involving Flair like him vs. Nikita in 85, where he's de facto face. Honestly can't think of too many others.

Dylan is certainly getting the July 2014 "most podcast appearances" award.

Seems like at the start of the year, Ivan was in the mains and Piper in the semi-mains and on the later end of the year they switched. I'm watching a bunch of 81 Mid-Atlantic soon. I'm sure Piper got more mic time.

I've always thought that a post-modern relativist would make a great heel in wrestling. The Relativist could be a masked wrestler, similar to The Assassin, who would come out to quibble with the morality of Hogan et al. His submission hold could be called Deconstruction. His foreign object could be a copy of Roland Barthes's mythologies with a book mark at the start of the wrestling essay. His occasional tag partner could be called The Other, who cuts promos about Levinas. ------ Mean Gene: So tonight, you're going to be facing Brutus "the Barber" Beefcake, who thinks he can beat you inside the squared circle. The Relativist: Well, Gene, victory and defeat are relative, man-made constructs. *Mean Gene rolls his eyes* The Relativist: "Cutting and strutting" is a grand metanarrative of which we should be suspicious. In the tradition of Jean-Francois Lyotard, I will be tearing down the constructs of the genre. Mean Gene: So are you going to WIN the match? The Relativist: What is "a match"? *Mean Gene walks away looking puzzled* Perfect heel for a promotion run by Vince McMahon.

If you go to Cubeta's new site, hidden away there are some Ivan Koloff booking sheets, he goes through the sheets for 1981 JCP, so of particular interest to anyone who has been following the Titans Xtra 81 roster shows. Ivan is a real nice guy, honest and humble -- unusual in wrestling. Really seems like he was top heel there in 81 because he beats Steamboat for the Mid-Atlantic title and works on top often with Piper in the semi-main.

How much do you think those performances on the Starrcade shows hurt Solie in the general perception? He's great in his natural environments like Florida and Georgia, two very different areas with different demands. He fronted the Florida tv for decades and TBS for years. Apparently he'd do them differently too, CWF was kind of scripted, he knew where the angles were going, parts were pre-recorded. GCW was done on the fly, he didn't know what was coming: would fly in to Atlanta on the Friday and back to Florida by Sunday morning. He fronted Continental too and worked various other places, bringing legitimacy and gravitas to things. Point is, his JCP/WCW work is a footnote in his career but I wonder how many people remember that first, especially his work on the super shows. I also wonder how much the vote is affected by the extent to which Memphis has been revisited whereas Georgia and Florida haven't?

Does anyone here know the work of Lord Athol Layton? He did commentary for both Toronto and Detroit, and he's one name I see brought up occassionally as being a great announcer.