JerryvonKramer

Yeah, I have to agree with that. I actually thought he was at his best as "Cool Curt" after his heel turn, ironically, when he was doing something closer to his Mr. Perfect schtick. Aside from the match with Bock, I can't recall any performances from him as a babyface where I'd say "yes, he was one of the best in the country at this point".

Not on PWO Brain, but Luger was slammed hard on the podcast of the guy who started this thread, so the idea that he's universally rated now is just not accurate.

I forgot to comment on this, but I listened to it and mostly enjoyed it. This came across as being much more in your wheelhouse and there's some entertaining banter. I can't get behind the Luger bashing from one of the panel though. Luger has some great performances from 87 to 91, especially around 89/90 time. 94 not his best year though, I'll give you that.

Someone also has to pick Luger!

My overrated by a long-shot is post-comeback Shawn Michaels. I really don't like his big showcase Wrestlemania matches or the era of endless false finishes and near falls they helped to inculcate. People go on about Taker vs. HBK, I am not at all a fan of those matches and they represent everything I've come to dislike about WWE main event style. A poster here, El-P, has a great phrase:"the self-conscious epic" -- and nothing to me represents that idea more than Taker vs. HBK, or indeed Shawn Michael's face in general in the 21st century. "I love you", fuck off! I might be a voice of one in a sea of 1000s, but there is no way that the Taker matches are ***** Underrated? On PWO it's hard to think of anyone who is underrated because this place is all about re-evaluating guys and giving them a fair shake. Sorry to anyone who has heard or read me saying this at least two dozen times before, but "out there" on the world-wide interwebs, it's got to be Ron Garvin. The guy is seen as a joke by many remembered for being the worst world champ and then being the guy we see in WWF feuding with Greg Valentine before jobbing out to everyone. Most kids growing up watching only WWF TV developed the opinion that Garvin was very lame, myself included. But his series of matches with Flair -- the studio match in 85, the title win and the Starrcade 87 match -- are as strong as anyone's, all ***** in my book, and I think there are more than just those three with Flair alone. Garvin was stiff, surprisingly agile, and could work counter-holds on the mat if need be. But it's the level of intensity and brutality in those Flair matches that are exceptional -- I think as stiff as anything you see in All Japan, with no exaggeration. I see the Starrcade match routinely given ratings like ** by Scott Keith and assorted followers, which is obviously just nonsense. Garvin remains probably the single most underrated worker of the 80s. I suspect one or two of the guys on the panel of Jaymes's podcast will think that Garvin sucks.

If not Matt D, then who?

Just to mention that reading something else just now, I stumbled across the fact that Beppo Mongol, featured in the match of that ep of TNT, was none other than Nikolai Volkoff. I wonder if even Vince knew that, because they show a clip of Volkoff later in the same show. This would be one of the few examples I can think of, of a company, unwittingly or accidentally, showing a guy in two different gimmicks on the same show: Beppo Mongol in footage from 1970 and Nikolai Volkoff from the current product in 1984. I guess it could have been an inside joke, but I doubt it. I wonder if anyone at home noticed.

What was Owen Hart doing in 1993?

Seeing this newest incarnation of the "then who" series made me laugh out loud. How about Ted DiBiase? Someone at WCW must have known he was leaving. Maybe the offer of being one of the horsemen would have been enough for him to turn down Baba's offer. He was also kind of a mentor to Arn in his earliest days and they were friends.

Images: An actual chicken. Kamala with the feathers in his mouth. Patera in the world's longest segment on a wrestling show ever, this side of a HHH promo Vince was really revving that van! Haiti Kid crops up between Dick Worhle's legs Alfred does not care for Mexican food

I thought his history of wrestling series from a few years back was really very good. The main problem with the show is that he could kind of do with a co-host at times just to play off. For example, Gary Cubeta brings almost nothing to those Talk57.com interviews with Matysik, but it helps break things up a bit so it's not just Larry rambling to himself, and I think Dragon Karl goes into that territory on occassion.

Gloomp, gal-oomp, gloomp, what's that noise? It can surely only mean one thing! The wheels of the cheesemobile are turning once more which means ... yes, folks, the machine is taking us back to July 7th 1984 for another editon of TNT! "From the World Wrestling Federation it's Tuesday Night Titans, with your host, Vince McMahon!" Vince is looking pleased with himself as ever. He introducing Alfred by claims that he holds the marathon record in England. They want to talk about the Ugandan Giant, Kamala! They talk about Friday. Alfred: He's a jungle guide or something. Something to do with all those safaris. And behind all of the scenes is Fred Blassie is manager. Later on: Ken Patera! And that famous midget wrestler, the Haiti Kid! Oh joy of joys. 1. Kamala vs. Bob Marcus This, believe it or not, was from a Georgia Championship Wrestling taping after Black Saturday -- of course, being the WWF, they didn't tape it in Atlanta but in Ontario, Canada. No idea at all who the ring announcer is, maybe one of our Canadian friends might be able to identify him? Blassie has taken the trip to Ontario and he accompanies Friday and Kamala. Blassie is wearing all red. Kamala has the mask on and Friday attends to him. Don't care what anyone says, in 1984, this was offensive, fuck it would have been offensive in 1964! Vince is on commentary with Tony Garea. Kamala does some chops on Marcus and a couple of splashes. Squash that got Kamala over as a big threat. But the reaction from the crowd is muted, more silence than boos. Perhaps the Ontario crowd had their collective intelligence insulted. Back in the studio and Kamala is going to be coming on the set. Alfred looks worried. Vince runs down some upcoming house shows and they were running two a night at this point including the Boston Garden AND the Philly Spectrum on the same night (August 4th). I'd be interested to see who was on those cards. Why don't I take a little look? WWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - August 4, 1984 (12,908) Televised on the PRISM Network - featured Gorilla Monsoon & Dick Graham on commentary: Bob Backlund pinned Salvatore Bellomo at 10:56 after hooking his legs between Bellomo's and forming a bridge; after the bout, the two men embraced out of respect (Backlund's last WWF match for 8 years) Prime Time Wrestling - 6/25/85: Gama Singh pinned Dave Barbie with a missile dropkick at 5:46 Mr. Fuji pinned Tiger Chung Lee at 14:33 after hitting two Vader Bombs Andre the Giant defeated Big John Studd via count-out at 9:47 when Studd walked out of the match after grabbing the ring ropes to prevent Andre from bodyslamming him and then climbing out of hte ring WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned Greg Valentine with a clothesline and the legdrop at 11:18; after the bout, Valentine shoved referee Dick Kroll out of the ring (Hulkamania, Best of Hulkamania) Georgia Championship Wrestling - 8/19/84: Michael Hayes, Terry Gordy, & Buddy Roberts (w / David Wolff & Cyndi Lauper) defeated Ron Shaw, Rene Goulet, & Charlie Fulton at 5:12 when Gordy pinned Fulton with a powerbomb; the Fabulous Freebirds used Lynard Skynard's "Freebird" as their entrance music for the bout (the Freebirds' debut) (Legends of Wrestling) The Haiti Kid pinned Dana Carpenter at 3:51 after Carpenter ran into the corner and Haiti moved out of the way Georgia Championship Wrestling - 8/19/84: Iron Mike Sharpe pinned Jose Luis Rivera at 5:11 with a forearm blow to the midsection Jesse Ventura defeated Rocky Johnson via count-out at 4:46 when Johnson rolled to the floor, holding his right shoulder in pain, after sustaining a piledriver Georgia Championship Wrestling - 8/12/84: Kamala (w/ Freddie Blassie & Friday) pinned Fred Marzino (sub. for Terry Daniels) at 3:10 with a splash to the back; after the bout, Blassie & Friday had to restrain Kamala fro climbing the top rope Georgia Championship Wrestling - 8/19/84: Ken Patera pinned Steve Lombardi with a legdrop at 5:43 TNT - 8/21/84: WWF IC Champion Tito Santana pinned the Iron Sheik at 7:51 with a small package; Freddie Blassie was the special referee for the bout but referee Joey Marella made the pinfall when Blassie was busy kicking trash out of the ring and ignoring Santana's cover WWF @ Boston, MA - Boston Garden - August 4, 1984 SD Jones defeated Pete Doherty Chief Jay Strongbow defeated Butcher Vachon Paul Orndorff defeated B. Brian Blair WWF Women's Tag Team Champions Princess Victoria & Velvet McIntyre defeated Peggy Lee & Peggy Patterson Don Muraco defeated Tony Garea WWF Tag Team Champions Dick Murdoch & Adrian Adonis defeated the Wild Samoans; Capt. Lou Albano was the referee for the bout Ivan Putski defeated Bob Orton Jr. Roddy Piper defeated Jimmy Snuka Not hard to see who the 'B' Crew was here, although there's still some star power on there. Back to the studio and Friday and Blassie. Blassie tells Vince that "Friday doesn't speak too much". Friday has brought with him an actual real-life chicken in a wire coup. Blassie: It's a very great chicken, it can perform beautifully. Vince: What else does the chicken do? Blassie: Well, it can perform a disappearing act. Now Vince introduces Kamala to some lame studio booing -- sounds like it was literally the sound boom guy and the tea lady. Kamala is drawn to the chicken. Blassie says that Kamala is his greatest find as a manager, not the most scientific wrestler in the world, but the most brutal. Blassie says he's not going to alter his style not even a fraction of an inch. Blassie explains that Kamala has to be fed at the same time daily. He's got down on his knees to get the chicken. Friday grabs the chicken. He's going to eat him alive. THE CHICKEN'S LOOSE. They go to break amid chaos in the studio. This went out on National Television. As we come back, we see Kamala just finishing off the last bits of chicken, there are feathers in his mouth. He catches the glare of the camera and stares down the barrell. Vince has a smirk on his face .. "I don't know what happened to the chicken". Alfred is lost for words. Vince now wants to introduce a match featuring everyone's hero, Sgt. Slaughter. 4. Sgt. Slaughter vs. Roger Smith This is from St. Louis. Smith has a cowboy gimmick and is announced from Waco, Texas. Vince calls Sarge the greatest living war hero in America today. Maybe that was offensive to some also, like to y'know, actual war heroes. Slaughter kisses the floor. I much prefer him as a heel, all this patriotic shit is annoying to me. Roger Smith is quite a big guy, looks like a knock-off Bobby Duncum. He gets quite a lot of this match and Slaughter sells for him. Apparently Roger Smith was one half of The Assassins after Tom Renesto retired. Well, well. This was before Randy Colley. Slaughter wins with the Cobra Clutch. Crowd seems like it really didn't give much of a shit. Slaughter gets on the mic and says "It's great to be back in St. Louis!", well that got more of a pop. Cheap heat, ha ha. Babyface Slaughter is always so cheesy, that he seems vaguely tongue-in-cheek to me. The Americans have schmaltz levels that we Brits cannot fathom, a bit like how dogs can hear really high pitched noises or something. Back to the studio and Alfred says that he thinks that impossible as it may seem but Slaughter's skills have actually increased. He says that Roger Smith is very well known to fans in the south of the US and is a very rugged individual so Slaughter did very well to make short work of him. He also mentions in passing that Slaughter has a lisp. Does he? I've never noticed that. Vince introduces Ken Patera now. The sound guy and tea lady boo again. Vince [wide grin on his face]: So, er, obviously you've been away "training" ... Patera: I've been absent from the WWF from a number of years, but it's good to be back. Vince: Couldn't help but notice all the medals dripping from your neck. They are his weightlifting medals from the world championships. He goes through about four or five of them. He mentions the military press one, which is no longer in olympic competition. Vince says that Patera is still the record holder for military press. They've discontinued it because the referees thought it was too dangerous for the competitors. Vince: You've had some trouble with officials have you not? Not just in Olympic competition, but ... it seems that Ken Patera has a lot of problems with officials. Patera says they are arrogant and obnoxious idiots, and are prejudicial. They are biased towards the underdog, and he's never been one. Vince produces a 3-quarter steel inch rod for Patera to bend. Alfred brings up his four gold medals at the Pan-Am games and Patera says that he's still the only American ever to do that. Patera bends the metal rod behind his neck. "Isn't that amazing!" 3. Ken Patera vs. Billy Travis This is the same Billy Travis as the one from USWA in 1990. Patera is still in fine shape in 1984. Tony Garea is not the best colour analyst in the world. Travis pinballs for Patera and Capt. Lou Albano, his manager at this time, slams Travis's head on the mat. Vince calls for a DQ. Snapmare into a chinlock by Patera. Suplex gets a shaky leg sell from Travis and Patera pulls him up on two. And after a slam be pulls him up again. Toying with him. Big standing powerslam dumps Travis to the mat. And again, almost dropped him on his head. Elbow drop for 3. Bullybeef squash.This was Patera's TV re-debut. Back in the studio and Alfred is trying to bend a bar himself but can't do it. Patera wants to demonstrate a few lifts now given that the Olympics are taking place this year. Patera rubbishes bodybuilders such as Arnold Schwarznegger. He says they look nice but compared to him, they are not that strong. I quite like this version of Patera's character. He's one of those guys who is so boastful about his own achievements that he's almost boring with it. Like a guy taking you through his own photo album telling you how great he is. He puts on the belt and explains what it is. Vince: Of course, for many people, when Vasily Alekseyev was competing, they thought it was to hold in his stomach. You can tell Vince is fucking loving this. He practically has a hard on. Patera is going to demonstrate the old technique, the split snatch and the new technique, the squat snatch. He does the split snatch with 135lbs, but notes that he has done over 400lbs in the past. Now again. Patera says that a lot of people think that it's just brute strength but a lot of it is technique. This might be one of the most boring wrestling skits ever, but I'm kind of enjoying it in its own way. You can tell that Patera is still a genuine enthusiast and that he knows his stuff. Two-hand clean and jerk now. He still holds the American record, but no longer the World record. "Excellent technique and excellent style", says Vince. Now the squat style. "It's like riding a bike, you never forget", says Patera. Patera says that he's the greatest in pro wrestling and is the man to beat. Vince says that after we come back from the break, Patera is going to attempt to stop a moving vehicle using only his leg power. Vince: The producers of TNT are not going to be responsible for ... Patera: They are responsible. Vince (aghast): They are NOT going to be responsible ... Patera: They are totally responsbile because I will not fail! That didn't seem to go to plan. Now we're back and there's a van. They've gone outside. Vince: I need to repeat, the producers of TNT are NOT responsible for your physical well being. Patera: Let's just put it this way, last few hours you keep saying 'you're not liable', well throw it out, I'm just gonna do this okay? I'm gonna show you I'm the strongest man in wrestling today. Vince: AND you're going on record to say that TNT is not liabel ... Patera: That's right, they are not liabel okay? Drop it then! Christ Vince! He didn't half harp on about that. Lord Alfred is driving the fan. Patera objects. Patera: On second thoughts, the man's from England and they drive on the wrong side of the street. I don't want you driving come on, get out. I don't trust anyone who is gonna be driving on the wrong side of the street. Ha ha. Patera says he doen't want anyone else doing it except Vince. Vince: I do not want it, thank you. Patera: I realease all liability, you won't be liabel. Come on, get behind the wheel. This is such a weird skit. Vince considers it a moment. "Alright, that's fine with me". Patera: EVERYONE on TNT can see and hear it, Mr. McMahon is not liabel. Jesus Christ what's going on. Still with the liabel stuff! Vince comes round and goes into the van. Patera: Are you jittery? Vince: Yes I'm jittery! Only a FOOL wouldn't be jittery! Vince seems really angry. I can't tell if something has gone wrong here, or if this is just exceptional acting from him. It feels like something is not going to plan. Alfred: You'd have been better off with me, I tell you. I've driven with him before, he's 100 miles per hour. Vince is revving the engine and seems to be getting more and more jittery. Patera puts a cushion behind him. Vince starts beeping the horn. What a fucking psycho! Patera shouts at him "wait for me okay! I'm the one doing it! Patience!" Vince beeps the horn again. Patera gets into position. Patera mentions to Alfred that he doesn't advise anyone at home to do this. Patera puts his feet on the bumper. Gives Vinces the signal. Vince steps on the gas, he's holding the van back. Smoke from the wheels. Patera has defeated the van! Patera shouts at Vince. "I don't you to turn that thing off after about 7 seconds" Vince loses it and starts shouting back. This whole thing is just incredible. Vince seems legit pissed off. Back in the studio and the Haiti Kid has ... THE MAIL BAG on his shoulder. Vince laughs as if to say "how adorable". Letter 1 from Kansas City, Kansas. How can I meet the WWF Champion Hulk Hogan? I am 5 feet 8, 115lbs, and 22 years old. I am considered a very good looking brunette. Yours hopefully, Lisa Murowlski, Vince looks like he's about to crack up. Ha ha ha. He doesn't think he can respond to it. He doesn't have an answer, lol. Letter 2 from Santiago, California. When will you be having another feature on Mr. Wonderful Paul Orndroff, I missed the first one and would like to see him. Peter Mattieu Vince says they'll be another one soon, but there are so many great athletes that it's difficult to have features of them all. Now Vince introduces a long-time favourite in WWF, Mr. Ace Freeman. This is the nostalgia feature. Alfred says he used to watch Freeman as a boy. These nostalgia bits are SO interesting to see. It's Vince acknowledging and paying attention to wrestling history here in 1984. I guess there came a point where he figured that the kids didn't care and erased this sort of thing, but it's so cool to see it while it lasted. Vince asks Ace Freeman how long he was a wrestler. Ace: That's like asking a chorus girl how old she is. The answer is 35 years at least. Now he's associated with Titan entertainment as a promoter in Western Virginia and Eastern Ohio. Vince asks him to compare the new breed of wrestlers to the action he saw when he was an active wrestler. Ace dutifully puts over the current talent. He talks about more people now coming from college and university backgrounds, so they know more. He said that back in his day, they'd have to rely on getting in European competitors from Greece and elsewhere. They show a picture of Ace Freeman in his prime. But Ace continues: today's wrestlers are so much better. He has great admiration for Bob Backlund. And for Ken Patera's strength. And now some old footage. 4. Victor Riveria and Tony Marino vs. The Mongols Makes you wonder just how much of this stuff is still knocking about in the Titan vaults. According to Graham's site this is an MSG match from June 15, 1970, which had a record crowd of 20,819 (it was broken by the next WWWF show there). Crusher Verdu and Bruno headlined both. The Mongols, unsurprisingly, both look like Killer Khan. The work is slow and nerve-holdy a la The Samoans. Back to the studio, and Ace Freeman says he's been through all of pro wrestling now so he's very qualified to be a promoter. He says also that he can't say enough about Hulk Hogan, who is very agile for a big man. Vince mentions that Freeman resides in Pittsburgh, "that's the home of Bruno Sammartino isn't it?" "It is." Ace had very little to say about the match from 1970, ha ha. Vince looks thrilled now to be introducing ... The Haiti Kid! He comes out and shakes Vince's hand and then gets on the table to shake Alfred's hand which gets a chuckle from Vince. Haiti Kid says it's a pleasure to be here. I note that he goes to the same clothes store as SD Jones. The Haiti Kid has quite a strong accent. Vince says that if the ref gets in the way, many times he takes matters into his own hands. Alfred insinuates that he cheats, but The Kid no sells it. Haiti Kid is stubbornly no-selling these attempts by Vnce and Alfred that he cheats. I love it! Vince mentions Frenchy Lamont, and when he slipped under Gorilla Monsoon's legs and picked him up at 400lbs. Vince shows a match of Haiti Kid now. 5. Haiti Kid vs. Dan Carpenter This is from the Capital Centre in Washington DC. Gorilla Monsoon on commentary. Carpenter looks like a midget Bob Backlund, sticks his ass out like him too. Carpenter bodyslams the Kid and then ... bites on his nails? Then Haiti Kid bites his ass which causes Carpenter to dash around the ring. He shows Dick Whorle but as he does so, Haiti Kid bites his ass too! DQ? Come on ref, you can't have that! Ridiculous comedy spot now as the midgets criss cross but Carpenter just keeps going and Haiti Kid stops and watches him keep running, It's like watching a post-modern deconstruction of a wrestling match as imagined by Looney Tunes. He's still running! Eventually Haiti Kid drops down and gives him a monkey flip. Then he grabs onto the ref and swings down putting his face between Worhle's legs and lools up. I can't imagine Dick liked working these matches too much OR he absolutely loved them, there's no in between. Then he STAMPS on Worhle's foot. What the fuck is this ref? DQ the little prick! Worhle is ridiculously lenient on the little people. Monsoon is laughing a lot on commentary, he loves all this. Carpenter accidentally body presses Worhle and hooks his leg. Haiti Kid counts to three. Worhle is pissed off now. Haiti Kid tries to raise Worhle's arm. The absurdity levels make this quite fun. Airplane spin by Haiti Kid but, of course, he dizzies himself. But despite being giddy, he gets the three. Pure comedy match. Studio now and Haiti Kid has gone, but he jumps over the sofa and he's there. Vince brings up that there were two winners of that match, him and the ref! Haiti Kid seems to no sell it again! Ha ha ha. They ask him about when he went down between Worhle's legs. Haiti says it was scary for him because he just didn't know what to do. What a scamp! Vince calls him one of the all-time great midgets. Vince is ready to introduce his next guest, but what's this? Ah, Alfred is wearing a Mexican Sombreo. He's thrilled to be. This can only mean one thing: Tito Santana is here. He comes out with a full Mexican band, trumpets, violins, guitars. Ariba! Ariba! Santana is wearing shades and a loungue suit. Tito says it's great to see an old-style mariachi band. He beats his chest once. "They are my people!" Tito says being the IC champion is the proudest thing in his life. Vince wants to show some video tape now. 6. Tito Santana vs. Rene Goulet Christ, Goulet still knocking around here in 1984. Stalling by Goulet to start. The ring has a dark green canvas. By my reckoning this was the March 7, 1984 from an All-Star taping in Hamburg. Goulet gets quite a lot of offense against the IC champ, which is surprising given that Goulet was doing jobs to the likes of SD Jones in 1984, he was more or less bottom rung on the ladder, but they make this a really competitive match. Crowd was pretty hot for this and it's because Tito sold for Goulet and made him look like a threat. ABC of how to do an effective 10-minute TV match. Vince asks Tito about his gruelling schedule. Santana says he defends the IC belt more than any previous holder and the travel does take its toll. Vince postulates that surely this makes him more vulnerable than previous champions. Vince and Alfred with some HARD HITTING journalism here. Tito accidently calls the WWF the "World Wide Wrestling Federation". Vince wishes him luck. More mariachi band action now, and we get dancing too. Vince's view of the world seems to have been conceived entirely from going on the "It's a Small Small World" ride at Disneyland. We come back from break with a full banquet of Mexican food. A bit of everything. Burrittos. Vince asks if they are Tito's favourites, and Tito says with Mexican food they are all his favourites. Vince suggests that Alfred has a burrito, Alfred's like "can I try something else instead?". Vince insists, and has some burrito. He tries it as if he's about to eat a piece of actual shit, but he says that it's "smashing". Now they show the tacos. Alfred goes to try some but accidentally on purpose drops them on the floor! But one is saved and Alfred is made to try it. "It's rather ermm..." Tomalis now. I have to say, in fairness to Alfred, that this particular Mexican food looks gross. He's being uber-tentative. He takes a bite of tomal, "gosh, I don't like that". Ha ha, Alfred HATES Mexican food. Enchiladas now. Tito's turn to try some. Vince for some reason spills an entire bowl of salsa all over the enchiladas before Tito can get a fork. Santana likes it. And now they have margaritas! They give one to Alfred. He sips it. They ask the woman there Deborah why they need the salt. She says, from her own personal knowledge, it's to kill the taste of the tequila. Ha ha. Now they've got sangria. They drink to "future victories in Interncontinental title defences throughout the World Wrestling Federation". What a long-winded toast. "And I know Lord Alfred Hayes, that you will ALWAYS remember this, it's done wonders for your palette". "For the next hour at least". Alfred playing the stereotypical rude Brit abroad was quite amusing, I'm not sure how much he was acting either. That's one of the things that has changed massively since 1984, the idea of someone never having had Mexican food would simply not workin 2014. More traditional Mexican dancing now. People who bitch and moan about the El Matador gimmick should watch some of this shit right here! Tito gives us an "Ariba" Now they want to talk about Fred Blassie, and how he brought back to the WWF Nikolai Volkoff, who has never looked better. He's going to sing the Soviet National Anthem. Now I've only just noticed this, but that song Nikolai sings is NOT the Soviet Anthem. The Soviet Anthem is basically the best national anthem ever ever, no question, no debate. But this is not the song Volkoff sings, anyone know what it is he's singing? The tune is completely different. 7. Nikolai Volkoff vs. SD Jones I wonder who is going over here. The fans do cheer SD. But oh ... we don't get to see the match, just the intros and now we're back to the studio. Strange, why just show the intros? 8. The Spoiler vs. Jeff Lang The hipster Dave Wolf joins Vince and Garea on commentary. If you recall Dave Wolf was the guy with the shades involved with Cyndi Lauper. The Spoiler had recently come to WWF from the GCW purchase and was the National champion at that point. But we barely see any of this match until we're back to the studio. Alfred wants to see more Ken Patera. Vince talks again about having the jitters with that. They plug the Mailbag address and thank their guests before signing off. There's no TNT next week because they are showing that entire card from the Capital Centre in Washington DC. I'm not going to watch it, but let's have a look at the card: WWF @ Landover, MD - Capital Centre - July 28, 1984 (15,000) Afa defeated Rene Goulet Bob Backlund defeated B. Brian Blair Bob Orton Jr. defeated Chief Jay Strongbow TNT - 8/7/84: The Haiti Kid pinned Dana Carpenter following an airplane spin Televised on the USA Network 8/14/84 - included Gorilla Monsoon on commentary: Charlie Fulton pinned Jose Luis Rivera at 9:26 when the momentum of a crossbody by Rivera put Fulton on top for the win Tony Garea pinned Iron Mike Sharpe at 5:39 after jumping into Sharpe and pushing his knees down on the shoulders during the cover Sika fought George Steele to a double count-out at 5:30 when both men began brawling on the floor, using the timekeeper's table, and then brawling to the back with a steel chair; prior to the bout, Mr. Fuji escorted Steele to ringside before going backstage WWF Women's Tag Team Champions Princess Victoria & Velvet McIntyre defeated Peggy Lee & Peggy Patterson at 13:15 when McIntyre pinned Patterson with a sunset flip Sgt. Slaughter defeated Greg Valentine via disqualification at 10:36 after Valentine pulled referee Dick Worley into Slaughter as Slaughter attempted to apply the Cobra Clutch; prior to the bout, Capt. Lou Albano escorted Valentine to the ring before going backstage Paul Orndorff defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan via disqualification at 12:12 after the referee caught Hogan using the challenger's brass knuckles, which Orndorff had been using moments earlier Roddy Piper defeated Jimmy Snuka via count-out at 6:17 when Snuka threw Piper back inside the ring after both men began brawling on the floor; after the bout, Snuka hit a headbutt on the referee and continued to attack Piper until several wrestlers and officials came out to restrain him The Iron Sheik defeated Billy Travis via submission at 3:30 with the Camel Clutch; prior to the bout, Freddie Blassie escorted the Sheik to the ring before going backstage Look at how hot WWF was in 1984, drawing a crowd like that in Landover. 19,800 is a sell out at the Capital Centre though, so could be better. You'd have to credit this one to Hogan vs. Orndorff. I wonder if that Slaughter vs. Valentine match is any good. I might have to take a look at that. Damn you wrestling! ----- This was just your typical TNT, but in that of course, there's a ton of surrealness, especially the increasingly heated interaction between Vince and Patera and the truly excessive talk of liabel.

Pics for GCW Jan to Feb 83: Brody's in town! Iron Sheik is still waiting on someone to accept his challenge, but what's that in Brody's mouth? Solie in his lovely three-piece suit with Bob Roop Sawyer destroys the tape of his head shaving. Sawyer about to burst a blood gasket as Solie tells him he's been fined $2,500 for destroying the tape. Dick Murdoch doing the club challenge at the Omni Jobber / JTTS extraordinaire Mike Jackson locks up Ivan's arm

Back to Georgia now, picking up at the Jan 1st show where we left off after the Xmas 82 Omni card. Solie is with Sonny King and Iron Sheik. I've not been too impressed with King on the mic. Iron Sheik talks in Farsi. Now I can speak a bit of Farsi, so let me see if I can work out what he's saying. Nope, can't work it out, seemed like he was saying hi to his wife or something, but his accent is quite thick. Masked Superstar comes out now and they are already shilling the January 2nd Omni show. Masked Superstar says he's going to come out with "25 big ones". Ole now. There's going to be a battle royal for $25k, he wants that money. Ivan Koloff is out now. He says that for $25k he'd stick his boot even in Ole Anderson's mouth! There are no friends in this battle royal! It's going to be in two rings. 1. Iron Sheik and Ivan Koloff vs. Moore and Brown Heels work over Moore. King is on commentary, and Solie asks him if Ivan is his new tag partner. King explains that no, he just needs a partner for a couple of weeks, so no this is NOT a new tag team. Interesting. King accuses Solie of being biased towards the faces. Have to say that Sheik and Koloff are a cool team. Sheik hits his high spots with several backbreaker and suplex varations. Koloff works a rougher, more brawling style but ends things with his AWESOME kneedriver from the top. The Russian and the Iranian shake hands after the match and look pleased with themselves. Ivan is back with Solie and he's STILL going on about taking Paul Ornforff's national title. Dr Tom Pritchard is there and he says very little. Ivan says he's been studying new chain techniques with which he's going to hurt Orndroff and make him beg. 2. Ivan Koloff and Buzz Sawyer vs. Johnny Rich and Randy Barber This is talked on commentary as Johnny Rich's big chance to settle the score for what they did to him. Which of course, begs the question as to why Rich has got lame bald jobberific Randy Barber in as his partner! Lot of fire from Rich to start and Ivan sells for him like a pro. Eventually Barber is tagged in and Sawyer does a backbreaker over Ivan's knee in a really cool spot. Then Ivan keeps him prone over his knee and Sawyer nails him from the top rope. Great double teaming. Standing powerslam from Sawyer, another backbreaker from Ivan. But Barber gets the hot tag and Rich fires up. Reverses a suplex from Ivan. But it's basically 2 vs 1 at this point. Sawyer with a big suplex. Quick tags from Ivan and Buzz. They are a really formidable looking team. Ivan goes for the KNEEDRIVER. But Orndorff jumps him and the match devolves entirely, Butch Reed comes in. Ole comes in. Classic GCW. Still though: why did Johnny Rich choose Randy Barber as his partner? Brief clip now of Iron Sheik speaking Farsi. Think he's saying he's going to make all Iranians proud (or something like that). 3. Masked Superstar and Super Destroyer vs. Randy Barber and McKenzie Masked dreamteam here which would have Kelly marking out. I think Tom Prichard is really rotten on colour commentary, would prefer Solie alone. Solie mentions that Masked Superstar has been credited with slamming Andre the Giant which is some feat. OMG! Solie mentions that Butch Reed still hasn't shown us what's in the box and he's getting a "little antsy" about it himself. THERE IS STILL HOPE PEOPLE. Solie says that it's really piqued his curiosity, you can say that again Gordon. Masked guys win with a powerslam. 4. Ivan Koloff vs. Mike Jackson Solie is still hyping Koloff vs. Orndorff's upcoming match as Ivan continues his relentless quest to capture the National Titlte. Full arm drag and twise by Koloff but Jackson reverses and escapes. A good period of counter wrestling from Jackson here who seems like he's the top JTTS here in Georgia if we're counting Johnny Rich as a lower midcarder. Headscissors by Jackson. Headlock takeover. It's been strength vs. speed and agility so far. Jackson takes it to Ivan but he resorts to an eye rake and after some basic offense throws him out of the ring. Hip toss on the concrete now. Big "WE WANT PAUL" chant in the studio now. Jackson has been hurt taking that hip toss. Double foot stomp by Ivan. Backbreaker. But Jackson comes back with a monkey flip and a headscissors! Ivan cuts off the comeback and hits the kneedriver. It's all over. Really good tv match and a spirited performance from Jackson. Buzz Sawyer is wearing a n American-football-style head guard. He's shouting. Ole comes out. They are hyping a Huntington show coming up. Now Ivan and Iron Sheik are out. Koloff gives the 162nd promo about how he's going to take Paul Orndforff's national title. Iron Sheik says he's been in GCW for five months now, so it's time to lay down the $5k Persian Club challenge! 5. Bruiser Brody vs. Randy Barber Complete mauling by Brody on Randy Barber. He goes over to Solie. "I haven't got all day Solie." He hasn't time to waste watching other matches. Brody says it's going to be a rela bad 1983 for anyone who puts their tights on to face him. Now a special interview with the NWA World Champion Ric Flair from Florida. Things are going to be a bit different in 1983, says Flair, not because the NWA says so, but because Ric Flair says so. He says he's taken time out of his busy schedule to fly into Florida to say this. His head is cut pretty badly. Flair says that the title doesn't go up unless HE SAYS SO. Nobody is going to tell Ric Flair what to do anymore! "I'm a proven commodity!" He calls Hacksaw Butch Reed a "dandy". 6. Brad Armstrong vs. Buzz Sawyer Buzz is wearing the head gear because his head was shaved at the Omni so we don't get to see it. Ole is on commentary and mentions that there is a court restraining order on showing the footage from the Omni too. That the tape will never be played. Solie mentiosn that Brad Armstrong is "the rookie of the year". He's been faring well against Sawyer so far. Fireman carry takedown. And works the arm. Leap frog by Armstrong and an armdrag. Works the arm some more. Another armdrag by Armstrong. He's been controlling this one so far. Sawyer comes back with a headbutt. Ole has gone down to ringside. Armstrong goes after the head gear and Ole storms the ring which causes Stan Hansen to charge the ring. Sawyer cuts a promo about his court injunction about showing "that stupid film" and about how no one is going to take his head gear off him! Iron Sheik promo now. He wonders why no one has the guts to take the $5k he's offered for the club challenge. 7. Iron Sheik vs. Randy Barber Poor Randy Barber, he got his ass kicked so often. Sonny King is on commentary, and as per usual I haven't got a clue what he's going on about. But the big news is that he's acquired the contracts of the Moondogs and the Samoans are no more in GCW, they've gone (i.e. back to WWF!) Sheiky Baby works over barber. He's probably about 30 or 40 pounds bigger here than he was in 1979-80, Sheik is quite jacked up at this point, not fat, jacked up. Barber puts up almost no resistance, he is one of the wimpiest jobbers. Abdominal stretch from Sheik. Bodyslam. Bearhug. Turnbuckle shot. Kneelift. He's got Barber well beaten but keeps punishing him, what a bully! Awesome belly to back suplay almost snaps Barber in half and an elbow drop gets the three. Great squash. Sawyer is hyping a Williamson card and Solie and Ole hype a Marietta card. They are going to Ohio and West Virginia. Ivan Koloff is pissed off. Apparently Orndroff was wearing a football helmet at their last match. Ivan has a plaster on his head. He is really annoyed and is going to be getting his lawyers to look into this, he says Orndorff WILL NOT get away with this. 8. Moondogs vs. Johnny Rich and Mike Jackson Wow, JTTS dreamteam right there. Solie explains that the Moondogs have been stripped of the tag titles which have been held up by World Championship Wrestling. Sonny King is managing the Moondogs now. A lot of fire from Mike Jackson to start but is cut off by a big atomic backbreaker. Big bodyslam now. They are kicking the shit out of Jackson now, but he manages to trip up one of them and gets the tag. Rich is a house of fire and slams the Moondogs one by one. But they cut him off with a vertical suplay. Big "let's go Johnny, let's go" chant from the studio crowd. Sonny King has gone on commentary by the way and has been gabbling on about how he's going to cut all the errors out of the Moondog's game. I really don't like King talking, he just seems to be treading water all the time. Big backbreaker on Jackson. Atomic drop. Nose pull! Choking over the middle rope. Bodyslam. But a second hot tag to Rich who makes a dropkick Jackson gets back in and hits a dropkick of his own. Jackson gives everything he's got but takes the pin. Makes me wonder why Johnny Rich tagged him back in. Buzz Sawyer is talking about his head gear again. He claims that no one in the entire world has EVER defeated Buzz Sawyer. Graham Cawthorn doesn't agree Buzz. Ric Flair is here! He seems to love Solie, "always a pleasure". He gets GCW TV over by saying that it's viewed probably by more people than any other sporting event in the country. Flair says that he's known Buzz Sawyer a long time and he's telling Rich, Orndroff, Sanatana and Reed that anyone trying to take that helmet off him might as well pack it in right now because Buzz Sawyer is probably more man from his knees down than most of you guys are in your entire body! Wow, Flair giving Sawyer a big rub there. Now he wants to talk about the title. Solie asks him about Butch Reed. Flair is wondering why whereever he goes people are asking him why he isn't putting up the title. Flair points to a woman in the crowd. "Just you shut your mouth honey! ... well what do you expect? She's from Atlanta!" Ha ha ha. Why won't he put up the title against Bruce Reed? Flair says he's going to put up money instead of the title. He has a big wad of $100 bills. Says it's going to be $5k to say that Reed can't beat him. He's waging his own money. 9. Ivan Koloff vs. Butch Reed. Next disc now and this seems to be a very brief clip from Omni footage. Cage match. Not enough to tell what was going on but Ole and Stan Hansen were both at ringside. Back to the studio and Buzz Sawyer has the tape reel of the Omni show where his head was shaved, he has the actual tape and he's made it all loose and is ripping it up. He bites into it. I wonder if that was the actual tape. 10. Buzz Sawyer vs. John King Complete squash ended with a German suplex. Can't go longer than 30 seconds. Ole Anderson is there and they are hyping an Omni card tomorrow night. It's going to be Buzz Sawyer vs. Tommy Rich! Bruiser Brody and the Iron Sheik are out now. Sheik has got one of his clubs with him, it's pretty big. Is anyone going to take his challenge? Brody has something in his mouth and doesn't talk. What is that? A dummy? A Hannibal Lector-style mouth retraint? Wow, some BABYFACES are out now, Butch Reed and Tommy Rich are with Solie, but Ivan Koloff is there too. He thinks there's an American conspiracy against him. Butch Reed is going to pay, but it's also not over between him and Orndorff. 11. Ivan Koloff vs. Butch Reed Seemingly not in the listings this match and we joiin it in progress. It's from the studio, and Ivan has been on top until Reed hits a forearm. But Ivan hits an uppercut. Backbreaker. Bearhug. But Reed reverses it and gets his own on. Ivan uses an eye rake to break. Sunset flip by Reed. Suplex reversal by Reed. This has been very back and forth. A lot of parity. Solie calls them two giants of the wrestling world. Ivan goes for the kneedriver but Reed slams him off. Super Destroyer runs in and attacks Reed. Now Buzz Sawyer runs out. 3 on 1 heel beatdown now. But Paul Orndorff and Tommy Rich run out to clear house. So typical of Georgia. 12. Bruiser Brody vs. Mike Starbuck Total destruction from Brody as you'd expect. Hits a big leg drop at one point. Piledriver for three. That's what you call a squash. We get a rundown of the upcoming Omni card ... Buzz Sawyer vs. Tommy Rich Ivan Koloff vs. Butch Reed Ole Anderson vs. Stan Hansen (no DQ) Super Destroyer vs. Dick Murdoch Iron Sheik vs. Paul Orndorff Bob Roop vs. Brad Armstrong The Moondogs vs. Tito Santana and Joe Lightfoot Precious Paul Ellering vs. Tom Prichard Bruiser Brody vs. Ray Candy PLUS Captain Redneck Dick Murdoch accepts the Iron Sheik's $5k challenge! Talk about a stacked card. Take my money! If only I had Doctor Who's TARDIS. 13. Bruiser Brody vs. King More squashing action. Solie says Brody is the most awesome big man he's seen. A chap on colour commentary (I'm not sure who this is) talks about how Don Leo Jonathan was massive and used to move like a middleweight. Says that Brody is reminiscent of him. Stick a fork in King, he's done. I'm wondering who this guy is with Solie. He is in a suit and has a small moustache. I thought it might be Tom Renesto but he doesn't look grizzled enough. EDIT FROM THE FUTURE ... okay, so it seems like it is Bob Roop. Weird, I thought Roop had dark curly hair, this guy is fair haired. It is definitely Roop though.Anyway, Brody comes over and moves Sole's lecturn away to show off his body. "Just look at me from here to here" Brody says there are two types of wrestlers, your regular stars and your superstars. He says around here he sees a wholelot of your regular stars, Dick Murdoch, Tommy Rich, guys you see every week, REGULAR STARS. But then there's some of us, that not only look different, not only rassle different, but we THINK a lot different. And we are your SUPERSTARS. And he has got no time for fancy headlocks and your snazzy-looking legholds! He's all about your GOOD OLD FASHIONED BUTTKICKING. Buzz Sawyer and Ivan are here. Sawyer is boasting about how no one has got to see under his head gear yet. Now, I reckon in the two months since the Xmas Omni card, his hair might have grown back, don't you? Solie informs Sawyer calmly that he's been informed that because of his actions destroying the tape that he's been fined $2,500 by World Championship Wrestling! Sawyer goes fucking nuts now. He's incensed! Wild animal. Ivan goes ater him. 14. Buzz Sawyer and Ivan Koloff vs. Mike Jackson and King Sawyer is possessed. Destroys King. Tags in Ivan. Backdrop. Jackson in. I have to say that Mike Jackson is a contender for legit best jobber, if he does indeed count as a jobber. Would have to check the Kelly Scale. Sawyer takes the three with a belly-to-belly. Ole is hyping the Omni card TOMORROW NIGHT. Ole says he's going to wear some studs for his match with Stan Hansen. I wish that match existed on tape. Sawyer is beyond comprehension he's so pissed. Ivan is also annoying on Buzz's behalf. Ivan says he's going to put Reed out of wrestling for good. 15. Bob Roop vs. Mike Jackson So the guy from earlier was Bob Roop, although he seems to have died his hair or something here and grown a mustache. Solie gets over Mike Jackson's Masters degree in political science again. Jackson is on top to start but soon Roop takes over. Solie talks about how Roop draws a man in like that. Jackson tries a cross body block but bites the canvas and Roop levels him with a shoulder breaker into a foreward slam for three. Jackson seems like he's really hurt his shoulder. Roop goes over to Solie. Solie is in a very nice three-piece suit today with a handkerchief in his pocket. Very dapper. Roop says he's been scouting and studying video tape on how to beat people. He likes to make his wins clearcut so no one wants a rematch. Roop wants to face all the top competitors. He's been in Georgia for two weeks now. And NOW we get some footage from the February 6th Omni card. It's Captain Redneck Dick Murdoch trying to do Iron Sheik's Persian Club challenge. Murdoch picks up the clubs and does 19 rotations on the clubs before Iron Sheik attacks him! What a cheapshot! "Did ya see that Gordon, it reminds me of 1941." Sheik uses the clubs to attack Murdoch now. And Super Destroyer runs in to help with the heel beatdown. Murdoch thorws a punch but he's been injured and Iron Sheik SMASHES him across the midsection with the club. Ouch, that must have really hurt. We also get a clip from his match with Super D who he defeats overcoming the odds after he hits a flying bodypress countering a superplex attempt. Back in the studio, Murdoch thanks the Omni crowd for spurring him on. We run down the February 27th Omni card now. Ivan Koloff vs. Butch Reed Bruiser Brody vs. Abdullah the Butcher The Superstar vs. Paul Orndroff Iron Sheik vs. Dick Murdoch Super Destroyer vs. Stan Hansen Buzz Sawyer vs. Johnny Rich The Moondogs vs. Ray Candy and Tito Santana Bob Roop vs. Tom Prichard Paul Ellering vs. Joe Lightfoot A much weaker card on paper than the earlier one. And let's end this sitting there. ------------- Thoughts: The experience of watching perpetual hype for Omni cards that never come is a bit masochistic on some level. I still think it's a bit strange how we get heel promos but not babyface ones. Butch Reed also STILL hasn't shown us what's in the box after almost 3 months. And it didn't seem to be mentioned in the later shows. If they never do show us what's in the box, I wonder why the angle never went anywhere. Ivan seems to have transitioned from his Orndorff feud into one with Butch Reed now and Sawyer seems to have transitioned to Tommy Rich, so does that mean their former issues are over with? It seems like nothing really got blown off in either of those fueds, and I wonder about how often things got blown off in GCW in general. It feels like a never-ending cycle. They really drag some storylines out. Like, it is absolutely ridiculous that Sawyer is still wearing the headgear over a month removed from having his head shaved, his hair would have grown back. To me, it seems to point to a booker who is running low on ideas. Nothing ever seems to move forward and it's starting to get curiously frustrating. MVP: Believe it or not, it has to be Mike Jackson. He's one of the best "spirited" JTTS guys who doesn't blow many spots, can move really well, the crowd are with him and he works against a variety of opponents here and is good with all of them. Mike Jackson might be the best jobber of them all.

"Hey Mick, you never guess what I heard" "What's that Bill?" "Londos is gonna put O'Mahony over in Boston" "They are booking that all wrong Bill, I tell ya. Dick Shikat is a really underrated worker and them there promoters are just wasting him at the moment" "I heard Shikat has got legit heat with a lot of the bookers ..." "Yeah that whole deal with Toots Mondt and Miller"

Yeah, I think jdw and I have wildly different takes on the make-up and attitude of modern audiences. I think the crowd thinks of itself as being much smarter than he's giving it credit for and that the MAJORITY of fans would think in terms of booking etc.; him the opposite. Maybe some others can chime in here with their own views: guys who have been to Wrestlemania or major PPVs recently, etc.

I also wanted to mention that Alice is a complete and utter waste of space. Luckily, she mostly stays quiet during the interviews. I just skip the opening 10 minutes or so and get to where the guest comes in. Alice is annoying because she has no clue, and is not a proper fan. When she said that she really got to be more interested in Cornette through his shoot interviews rather than from familiarity with his actual career, I wondered why she's on there at all. She has no chemistry at all with Corny and whenever she talks it's awkward and unnatural. Sounds like she's butting in or speaking out of turn. Absolutely zero value to the show. Zero. About as worthless an on-air presence as I can think of.

Right, I'm going to have to engage directly Darth, I've been trying to avoid it but you leave me no choice. I think everyone knew deep-deep-down, but like Loss I'd try to find ways of proving it was real as a kid. My dad was always highly critical, always tried to demonstrate the ways it was fake and to this day will say "you don't still watch that shit do you?" However, I do remember a time when there were hot playground discussions about whether it was real or fake. But it was more like a wild rumour or something. So there was an inclination there that this was all fake. But coming online was revelatory. I remember being absolutely fascinated in the late 90s reading about the insider terminology, and it was genuinely quite thrilling to piece together things that you'd vaguely figured out as a kid; having it all broken down and explained was something of a shift in the way I thought about wrestling. And this is what I'm talking about ultimately, it's shifting to a more analytical mindset where you're thinking about booking decisions, and work and so on. That just didn't happen in, say, 1995 -- when admittedly most kids I knew had just stopped watching period. I reckon in 95 I was still pretty much a mark kid with my own "theories" on how it worked. By 97-8, after reading online my perspective was completely different. I'll say though, I still even to this day, try to retain an element of being a mark kid watching wrestling. You can never fully get back there, but occasionally something can move you. Week in-week out? The reaction was because they all thought they knew how it would be booked, not because they thought Taker was invincible. Rather different, I think, to a 70s fan cheering for Bruno or a kid in the 80s cheering for Hogan. I still don't see how the impact of LOTS of fans being exposed to insider terminology and the inner workings of the business can compare with your old man saying "you know it's fake son right?" It's not the same thing. The internet completely changed the way fans ENGAGE with the product. Now everyone and their uncle has an opinion on HHH's booking. Did the average fan from the 70s or 80s even know who the booker was?

There might be a good thread in this topic in itself.

All I'll say is in this past couple of weeks I've watched the Freebirds-DiBiase piledriver angle from Georgia, the Flair-DiBiase-Murdoch brainbuster angle from Mid-South, and Sgt. Slaughter vs. Pedro Morales from MSG in 1981, and the Savage vs. DiBiase match from MSG in 1988 when the fan jumps the cage and attacked Virgil. I don't believe that those crowds all knew for sure that wrestling was fake. And if they did, they did a pretty great job of acting as if they thought it was real. It's a question of degree. There'd have been sceptics back in the day, there'd have been people who didn't buy it, etc., but there's a marked contrast in crowd reactions from those angles and shows and what you see at your average show today. What the internet did was compound the exposure and make it much more definite, so that things like -- for example -- that piledriver angle where you have a guy kayfabing it in the hospital for the week couldn't get over anymore. Don't pretend that fans who were hitting those news sites and Keith reviews were the same as those fans going crazy at MSG or smoky arenas in Mid-South or crying at someone being laid out on the concrete in the Atlanta studio. Don't pretend for the sake of trying to win an argument or whatever the fuck you're trying to do.

Well, you heard it here first folks, the internet did not affect the business and the death of kayfabe is something it imagined. From the same guy who said Vince didn't change the way wrestling was presented on TV, ladies and gents, because Gorgeous George existed.

There are more people online all the time. There are always going to be more people wrestling that stuff. More people read about sabermetrics now than in 1999 or 1989. Hell, more read online now then read Moneyball. It doesn't mean that the revolution started today, or with Moneyball, or with Rob Neyer getting hired by ESPN (which some people point to). That's the general point. The general point is that being online to some extent "smartened up" the wrestling audience (although how much is very debatable I think). And even casual mainstream fans think they are "smart" fans. You were acting as if there was no basic change and that fandom was the same as it's always been just now it was online. But it wasn't the same and isn't. Ask any wrestling promoter. The reason I was pointing to the late 90s is because then the numbers were small enough for "IWC" to actually refer to a group of people (i.e. those fans who had stumbled online and underwent the process I described here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/27795-commonly-used-words-and-phrases-that-annoy-you/?p=5612170). Now and since about 2006, EVERYONE is online so the term has no meaningful application at all.

Just you wait till Grimmas's next show drops.

A casual fan with an access to the Internet and social medias. And since everyone has access to the Internet and social medias, what you're describing is just the casual fan of today, really. Right, and that type of fan with that "smart" perspective and way at looking at the product did not exist before the late 90s.