JerryvonKramer

The analogy I'd make is that -- in the very specific terms of the early days of the IWC, among fans who read and wrote reviews online -- Meltzer was the Lou Reed, who was tremendously influential to anyone who actually listened to the Velvet Underground (the quote they always trot out is "not many people listened to the Velvets, but anyone who did started a band"), while Scott Keith was the David Bowie -- who reached a bigger and wider audience. I feel sick to my stomach having just compared Keith to Bowie, but I think that's basically it. Meltzer clearly influenced Keith a lot, and then Keith influenced the legions of people of could easily access his free-to-read rants on various avenues. Meltzer was only availble to a tiny fraction of the people who got online in the late 90s, Keith -- and people like "The Rick" and so on -- could reach anyone who had an internet connection and a Yahoo or AOL search engine. In fact, I think most of us will remember first finding those guys online. You found Keith before you found Meltzer. Most fans hitting the internet in the late 90s wouldn't have had a clue who Meltzer was, and probably found out about him from Keith's references. The legacy of Keith, of course, was not just ratings, but the snarky and ranty tone of reviews. It would take a decade for the IWC to get that shit out of its system, much as it took wrestling that long to full get beyond the attitude era.

It may well be, but I want to list them all out. It will be educational.

Before recording the second part of the GCW show last night, it occurred to me that Ted DiBiase during his career could lay claim to being part of at least SEVEN legit great angles, some of which are in the "all-time" caliber, and all of which would likely make a "Top 50 wrestling angles" list. Remember: an angle is not a storyline or a feud, it's a specific plot point in a storyline or feud. My aim in this thread is not such much to really ascertain "who had the most", but rather listing out the process by which we'll get there. Hopefully, by the end we should have a very full listing of all-time great angles and a good idea of who has been involved in them over the years. Inevitably, I expect there will be some debate as to what "truly counts" as an all-time great angle. The criteria I would say would be: - how much impact did the angle have at the time? - how memorable it is? - how much do people who witnessed it talk about it and reference it? - how large does the angle loom in the history of the given promotion it was worked in? - did it draw? - would the angle realistically get into an "objective" top 50 wrestling angles in history that is voted for by a WON HoF ballot holder-type base taking all of the above into account? I'll start with Ted, who like I said, has seven such angles in my view. These are: 1. The Freebirds Piledriver incident, when Gordy gives him a piledriver on the concrete and 3 piledrivers in the ring, Gordon Solie acts like he's been legit killed, and he goes to hospital. This is regularly cited as the most memorable angle in GCW history. This angle is given legendary status partly because it was so believable: Ted went to a legit hospital and spent days there despite the fact he wasn't really injured, at the hospital they had to close down the switch board due to the amount of callers, the Freebirds received death threats, and there are many accounts of kids who at seen it on TV crying at home. 2. The turn on JYD. DiBiase had been JYD's tag partner and ally through thick and thin, and during the infamous Freebirds blinding angle; he was the best man at his wedding. But then in 1982, during a face vs. face match, he loaded his glove and the Dog lost not only his title but also his best friend. And Mid-South gained their biggest heel. 3. The Gorilla angle. As a heel and leader of The Rat Pack, DiBiase feuded with JYD. It came down to a Loser Leaves Town Tag Match (DiBiase and Matt Borne vs. JYD and Mr. Olympia). Before the match all during the show, a guy in a gorilla costume was entertaining the kids at ringside. This gorilla was, of course, secretly Jim Duggan and he interfered at the crucial moment to cost JYD the pinfall. JYD would come back as Stagger Lee in one of the more successful iterations of the Midnight Rider / Charlie Brown from Outta Town angles. 4. "The Best Dressed Man in Mid-South Wrestling" in which Dibiase smashes up Duggan's car with a baseball bat. In 1983, the Rat Pack had been dominating Mid-South, but there was a new threat in town Devastation Incorporated led by Skandor Akbar. The ambitious Akbar wanted to join forces with the Rat Pack, but Duggan -- a true patriot -- wanted no part of it. Ted vowed that he wouldn't turn on his friend and stuck by Duggan only, of course, to turn on him as soon as he could during a match with one of Akbar's charges, (the fake) Kendo Nagasakii. This led to a feud between Ted and Duggan which resulted in Duggan beating DiBiase in a loser leaves town match and DiBiase headed back to Georgia. Over a year later, in 1985, Ted came back and proceeded to basically mug Duggan using a blackjack to knock him out. The feud took on a new dimension, however, when Ted started running down Duggan as a guy who lacked class. Watts had named Duggan "Wrester of the Year" for 1984 and wore a tuxedo to accept the award and thank him, next week Ted turned up in a tuxedo and challenged Duggan to a best-dressed man contest, which Ted inevitably loses, twice. Pissed off, smashes in the windows of Duggan's car with a baseball bat. This would culminate in the famous Loser Leaves Town, Tuxedo, No DQ, Glove on a Pole, Cage Match. 5. Dick Murdoch brainbusters Ted on the concrete after his big world title match with Ric Flair. This is brought up by some people as the greatest angle of all time. Murdoch had been like a father to DiBiase looking after him as he grew up in the business. Ted had long been touted as being a future world champion and now, in 1985, his big opportunity had arrived. Of course, at the same time, he was the biggest and most hated heel around after years of the aforementioned shenanigans. But before the match, Murdoch is here to piss on DiBiase's parade. He slams Ted into the ring post resulting in one of the bloodiest lacerations you'll ever see in wrestling. "I've never seen that much crimson in my life". He bleeds profusely and medics try to get him bandaged up because he still wants that world title shot. Against the odds, he goes on to have a great bout with Flair, despite being weakened by the injury. But it's too much and after taking a big bump to the outside, he struggles to get back in before the 10 count, but then Murdoch comes back and in one of the more villainous acts of all-time starts hammering on Ted and then delivers a brainbuster on the concrete floor. In terms of execution, crowd control, and basically everything, this is undoubtedly one of the best angles ever. Jim Ross is tremendous on commentary. 6. The evil twin refs. In 1988, DiBiase, now the Million Dollar Man in WWF, had tried unsuccessfully to buy Hogan's title. So, of course, he came up with a plan to purchase the services of Andre the Giant who might be able to beat Hogan on his behalf. Cue one of the most memorable angles in WWF history at the Main Event where we discover that long-time official Dave Hebner has an evil clone -- either a twin who DiBiase has paid off, or perhaps just a guy who he has paid to have his face surgically altered to look like Hebner (the exact details of this have never been made clear). So Andre beat Hogan and then sold Ted the title seconds later, much to the chagrin of Jack Tunney. This would lead to the tournament at Wrestlemania IV. Vince and Pat Patterson were really on top of their game during this era. The angle of course changed the course of wrestling history by ending Hogan's historic first WWF title run. 7. Virgil finally turns on Ted. Loyal bodyguard Virgil had been at Ted's side since late 1987. But in January 1991, while still feuding with Dusty Rhodes, Ted had started ramping up his general dickery towards his employee, treating him more like a personal gimp than a bodyguard. Most will remember the dark and disturbing skits in which he gets Virgil to clean the fungus from between his toes and to clean shit from off his boots. Arguably this is the start of the general "darkening" of mood during WWF in 1991. At Royal Rumble 91, Ted finally takes it too far after dispatching Dusty Rhodes in their tag match by slapping Virgil in the face for fucking up during the match. He orders Virgil to get the Million Dollar Title and put it around his waist, and unwilling to take further abuse and humiliation, Virgil smacks Ted in the face with the belt to one of the loudest pops you'll ever hear. Definitely up there in terms of most memorable babyface turns in the WWF. The booking was masterful here, they'd slow-burned this turn for years. ---------- So there are Ted's entries. Who else?

Matt, discussion around here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/21457-where-the-big-boys-play-55/&do=findComment&comment=5575080

Not at all bud. Matt, we did discuss this before somewhere, but it was off topic. I did a comparison across IWC reviews and Meltzer. I think it might have been in one of the WTBBP discussion threads, but can't be sure which one. Was a while back, very likely in thread to a show where we discussed Ron Garvin matches. EDIT: genuine lol at that post Matt.

It's amazing how some people can write so much and yet say so little of substance.

Loss, this totally slipped my mind, I can also take a look if you want another pair of eyes.

It said Fantasia under the bird feathers?

Thanks a lot for that Slick and welcome to the board! I think Reed is such a weird case. I can't see why no one picked him up in 94 if he was working again. Considering some of the guys who were signed to WWF and WCW then, he surely had some value. How awesome would he have been, for example, in the Nation of Domination. I guess he didn't stick with the rodeo business long then. On a side-note, I've been to Tulsa and saw that weird blue whale thing there. I think the 5 minutes or so when I stumbling around talking about "context" and trying to justify my love the match might be my ropiest bit of audio in about 40 shows.

Current Favorite Wrestler To Watch: Probably Ivan Koloff Last Fun Match You Saw: Steve Keirn vs. Mr. Saito from GCW circa 1981. Wrestler You Want To See More Of: Hans Schmidt, thought he looked awesomely stiff in that footage I watched last week Last Live Show Attended: Still that one with Liger in London last year. Match You Are Looking Forward To Watching Soon The Most: There's a whole bunch of Harley Race matches I'm going to plow through soon (will use Microscope thread) so one of those. Probably vs. Ricky Steamboat from 1978, vs. Funk from 78, or one of the Murdoch matches. Pumped in general about seeing more Harley. Last Fun Interview/Promo You Saw: The Assassin vs. Mr. Wrestling 2 mask debate we covered on the last Titans, as I said on that show, Assassin automatically shot up to one of my favourite ever guys with just that one interview. Last Interesting Thing You Read About Wrestling: The Meltzer piece on booking philosophies from the June 3rd 1991 WON, we cover it in some depth on WTBBP #64 which is in the can, but not yet released. Last Worthwhile Wrestling Podcast You Heard: Wrestling Culture, episode 3, classic show from 2011. Other than that, I really dug Austin's Tommy Rogers interview. Most Fun You've Had Watching Wrestling Lately: The Georgia stuff is a real riot -- both the 79-81 stuff we've looked at for Titans and the early 83 stuff I looked at in that thread. Despite having few actual matches, it's very fun to watch.

It's usually brought up as the major knock on Dusty as a booker and as a kind of final nail in the coffin of Crockett who went on to have a horrible 88 box-office wise. However, given how much Meltzer hated Dusty as a booker and in general, I wouldn't be surprised if it's significance had been inflated over time.

How much did Starrcade 87 kill wrestling in Chicago though? I thought Chicago was considered a dead town for a while after the Road Warriors didn't win the tag titles there. I'd be interested to see a list of shows and gates run in Chicago after 87 to see how long the numbers stayed down.

What was Jerry Lawler's gut like under the singlet?

Looking at the live gate, they did 20,000 in Chicago, not bad at all. Quite surprising to me because I always think of 94 as being real dark ages. I guess the interesting thing would be to look at events headlined by Bret when Taker wasn't around to see if there's a real difference. But okay, I take it back, it's not a knock on Taker. I do think it's some of the worst shit he ever did though.

What sort of fiigures did it pull Charles? And do people tend to attribute the figures to Taker or to Bret?

I randomly went back and listened to this again last night -- I thought that coming back at it after 3 years, I'd have a different perspective and appreciate little things I'd have missed in 2011. This is just a superb show and some of the funniest shit too. Dave's "Mediocre Artist friend" gimmick had me laughing my ass off. Tommy Rich's FBI stuff also sounds like the best thing of all time.

^ How much was Undertaker on top in 94 though? I distinctly recall the tapes that year having Taker on the front cover rather than Bret. Taker vs Taker felt like the main event of Summerslam, Taker vs. Yoko is the main event of SS. I think 94 is a major knock on Taker in general as a main event draw, it's just an awful year for him and not just because of the booking.

DiBiase co-headlined Wrestlemania in 1993 and carried the tag division in 92-3. They'd built him up pretty well in 1991, he wouldn't have look out of place challenging for the title before Flair came in. DiBiase vs. Virgil was number 2 or number 3 feud on the card all year, and one of the two people was Virgil. Also, I think people underrate the extent to which IRS was over as a heel in 91 as well. Money Inc. were the equivalent of the a heel super-team, although IRS was more an IC-level guy than a world-title-level guy. So you were right Matt. That was just a poor house show, and that feud is right right right at the end of Ted's run.

The Good - WCW before Hogan comes in. They go on a PPV hot streak. Superbrawl IV has Arn Anderson vs. Lord Steven Regal and Vader vs. Flair rematch. Spring Stampede has Regal vs. Pillman and the last version of Flair vs. Steamboat, Slamboree has the Funk vs. Tully legends match. The Bad - WCW about 4 or 5 months after Hogan comes in after he's gobbled up Flair and we get to the point that Starrcade is being headlined by fucking The Butcher aka Brutus Beefcake. The Ugly - The Fake Undertaker. In fact, everything involving Undertaker in 94 from the awful casket business at Royal Rumble right through to the abomination that is the rematch with Yokozuna at Survivor Series.

My impression of Dave is that when rating matches he values "action", crowd reaction and the booking of the finish. These are the three things he almost always comments on. He will take whole stars off for bad finishes, or poor booking. He will penalise matches for having a dead crowd. And he will penalise what he perceives as a lack of action. I've seldom seen him really talk about psychology. After reading many WONs now, I think it's also fair to say that Meltzer -- at least in the 80s and early 90s -- was a total mark for Japanese wrestling and preferred the NWA to WWF. His biases show through pretty intensely sometimes. Even allowing for all those things, there are still lots of times when he gives something a rating (high or low) that has me scratching my head. One thing I've noticed is that he kinda gets into a groove with a show, especially ones he attended live, so ratings can either be down across the board if he's in a funk, or up across the board if he was feeling it. He'll let backstage goings on affect his ratings as well. ------- I think Meltzer is at his best talking about bigger picture stuff: history, booking philosophy, production values, how TV is being presented, breaking down what is wrong and right about a given product. His news is also an invaluable resource. In general, I absolutely love him for all of that. But I think rating and reviewing matches is not a strength of his.

My views: 1. I understand Something Savage's point, he's made some good ones, but wrestling has never been presented solely as an athletic contest. 2. Wrestling has always had two faces: the catch-as-catch-can technical and athletic contest and the side-show carny attraction. In its roots, there was always an element of the wrestling star taking on anyone who walked in the ring off the street from the audience. 3. Those contests of wrestler vs. bloke off the street, started off as shoots, but later could be worked. So the guy off the street was secretly a worker too. 4. In addition, you've got that carnival aspect too, so as well as the technical star, you've always had the big or exotic characters. Giants, freaks, Sheiks, "flamboyent" types, etc. 5. So by the time most of us started watching wrestling, you have this lovely potpourri of guys from seemingly all sorts of backgrounds, some from sports backgrounds, some from "parts unknown" and some people who seem like they've just walked in off the street (think of gimmicks like Tugboat or Big Josh, even Mick Foley had a bit of that) 6. In addition, you have the bar-room brawler type. Wrestling isn't always about the best athlete, but the person who might win in a fight. Guys like Dick the Bruiser, The Crusher, Dick Murdoch or Harley Race who might have drank a 6-pack of beer or two, but could still knock your head off. That's a different version of "worked" toughness. 7. You also have the concept of the veteran. Guys who are past their prime physically, but who get by on ring smarts. Chris Hero surely is getting to this stage of his career now. So ... 8. I think wrestling could probably do with more fat men in general. That feeling of variety you get from the 70s and 80s has slowly gone missing down the years and it's added to the vague sense many of us have about the product being homogenized. Wrestling should stay true to that mixture of worked athletic contest and carny nonsense it's always been.

In a bid to change the direction of this thread before it is inevitably locked.

Just because Ricky Morton was great at playing Ricky Morton, does not mean that Gibson was necessarily great at being the hot tag. In fact, Morton himself was a better hot tag than him. I am one of the people more down on Gibson though, just think the guy would have been a jobber without Morton.

I'm still waiting for the call for the DiBiase wrestler snapshot, it will be the first 6-hour Supershow.